Song Ownership-Tommy Makem

Subject: RE: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 06:47 PM

The Carthy/Simon issue wasn't about the song, as you ought to know, Jim; but about the distinctive guitar accompaniment, which Simon copied note-for-note, including the (in those days, unusual) phrasing; and about the implied claim that Simon had written the whole song himself. That's all sorted out now, though, and there's no need to rake over the ashes; though it is an object lesson in the perils of making assumptions about the nature and status of what we may think is traditional; and the extent to which it can be considered to be "up for grabs".

Subject: RE: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: GUEST,Damien.
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 08:00 AM

Song origins, authors, etc, are easy to trace these days, for those who take the trouble to do so, claiming the work of others as your
own, thus depriving the writer of income due is immoral, but sadly
a common practice.

Subject: RE: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: Richie
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 08:43 AM

Belfast,

People get royalties for arrangements of traditional songs. I receive royalties for my folk arrangements from Mel Bay, my publisher.

I am not aware of litigation concerning violation of "arrangements of a folk song". In most cases there's probably not enough money at stake to warrant taking the claim to court. Even if you filed a suit for artistic reasons, you'd still have to pay lawyers, prove the case, win it in court , and (the hard part) collect damages. The damages in most cases being small.

There are many cases involving authorship of songs, and rewrites of songs.

-Richie

Subject: RE: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: banjomad (inactive)
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 09:53 AM

Martin Carthy did not sue Paul Simon, the dispute was that Paul claimed copyright to the whole thing as his own. Martin thought there
he should have given the TRADITION some credit. If you look and listen closely to Martin Carthy songs you will sometimes find a song largely rewritten by Martin and the credits will always say 'traditional arranged Carthy '.
The last time Paul Simon was in England he telephoned Martin and asked him to play at his main concert in London, Martin accepted and they are once again good friends.
Dave

Subject: RE: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 11:06 AM

Jim, I played the Troubadour several times in the sixties, and although I never heard Martin Carthy sing or talk about the song, it sure was on everyone ELSE'S mind.

Years later my sister-in-law sent me a video, with Billy Connolly hosting, in which Carthy went through every emotion known to humanity trying NOT to sound hurt and angry about Paul's supposed perfidy.

He starts off saying....."uhhhhh, oh well.......uhhh...it's JUST a folk song......uhh....and we were all drunk......and hey, what's mine is his......uhhhhh.....and I wish this would all just go away.....uhh" and then passes through .."Yeah, he went out and copywrited it the next morning (!!!).....and yeah, I wuz hurt, and ....uhhhh....prick me and I bleed (he really DID say that).....but it's ok.....uhhhhh...mumble mumble mumble....."

He was very emotional at the end, after ALL THESE YEARS! My guess is that he's a pretty honourable guy, and simply had not come up against the "Simon or Dylan" personality and ambition before. My guess is that after Paul and Bobby went home with several of his arrangements, his eyes opened a tad. Superstars don't worry 'bout tiny details.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 11:59 AM

Both Malcolm and Rick are correct, of course, but in those days so many people were just finding out about trad songs and cross borrowing was rife. I'd like to add that Martin IS an honourable guy: e.g. In and around 1964 I sold Martin a piper's knife for £1 as I was broke. A few months ago I met him at Bobby Davenport's 70th birthday party and he promised to return the knife, for a quid! This we have done, I have the knife (slightly battered) and he has his pound coin!
Jim McLean

Subject: RE: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: Jim McLean
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 12:01 PM

PS I forgot to log in for the last posting, Sorry

Subject: RE: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: belfast
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 12:12 PM

Thank you, Richie, for your reply. This is more or less what I suspected. But it does seem such a complicated and murky question. I have seldom heard a melody that didn't remind me of an earlier piece and I occasionally wonder just how close that resemblance would be before someone goes looking for a lawyer.

I suppose it helps to keep lawyers in work. We all know how much they need the money.

And I've just half-remembered seeing Martin Carthy in that documentary on BBC4. If I remember correctly he was saying nice and admiring things aboout Paul Simon.

Subject: RE: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: belfast
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 12:19 PM

And regarding the original subject of this thread I can't resist relating a conversation that I heard in south Armagh not long ago.   Tommy Makem was about to do a concert in Armagh and a couple of guys were talking about it in the pub.

The first, reading from a newspaper, says, "He says that he has got so much from this community that he wants to give something back."

His companion says, "Do you know how much he's getting paid for this gig?" and he names a rather large amount of cash.

"I see," says the first guy. "In other words, he has received so much from this community and now he wants to sell it back."

I apolgise in advance to friends and fans of Tommy Makem. I'm just a messenger.

Subject: RE: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: Kim C
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 12:38 PM

Jimmie Driftwood used to do that kind of thing all the time. It's not anything new.

Subject: RE: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 01:06 PM

I never checked it, but I heard that in the early Sixties some nineteen different people claimed copyright on Greensleeves. I'd love to see that one come to court.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: GUEST,John.
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 02:31 PM

The origins of Pat Cooksey's song the sick note have been well documented for years, Sing Out Magazine, Rise up Singing, The Furey's Songbook, The Dubliners Songbook, etc, etc, all listing him as the author, what therefore is the basis for other claims to the song and presumably royalties. Mike Cross Noel Murphy Robbie O'Connell And all the arranged byes.

Seems all you need to do is change the title.

Subject: RE: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: belfast
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 02:47 PM

Claiming copyright for Greensleeves? Not a good idea. You could end up in court against Henry VIII.

Or is someone going to tell me that his authorship is another myth?

Subject: RE: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: banjomad (inactive)
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 03:22 PM

'enry who

Subject: RE: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 03:32 PM

The point of copyrighting a traditional song, as I would think most people have grasped by now, is not to claim ownership so as you can get royalties off others who record it. You can't do that. The point is to get the royalties from your own recording of the song, which would otherwise be trousered by your record company if there is no copyright claimant. And since researching folk material, in my own experience, takes a lot longer than writing original stuff, I think the practise is perfectly legitimate.

Subject: RE: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: belfast
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 03:43 PM

Good point, Greg, but no, I hadn't thought of that. Does the "Trad.arr." cover that?

Subject: RE: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 03:48 PM

Yes it does, in England at any rate. Can't speak for other legal systems.

Subject: RE: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: DonMeixner
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 04:10 PM

Greg,

Then this all goes back to my original reason for the post. And I hate to continue to use Tommy Makem as the whipping boy here but that is the example I forst stated. In the case of "Jock 'O'Hazeldean" and the other songs mentioned directly in my post, Tommy Makem is identified as the author of the song. NOT as the author of the arrangement to a song that is already in Public Domain. And that is my entire contention.

If I, an an unknowing musician, record "Jock'O'Hazeldean" with my own arrangement and license as stated with Tommy as the author and credit him as such on the CD, does he or the label recieve the $80.00 from the license fee?

Isn't there an incumbency on someones part to correctly identify a song as Trad/Public Domain? Or is this entirely a Buyer Beware situation?

Don

Subject: RE: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 05:43 PM

Yes, it's buyer beware all right.All those good old folk songs that came out as "New Words and New Music by Lonnie Donegan". Of course he never wrote them, neither was he really claiming to. A legal fiction. I dont know American law, but claiming authorship does seem a bit cavalier. "Trad arranged G Stephens" tends to take care of things in England. It may not even be true, but people who died 300 years ago arent going to sue me, and neither is Tommy Makem if I do it to "Jock O'Hazeldean".

Subject: RE: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 06:50 PM

Sir Walter Scott wrote Jock o' Hazeldean, though he based it on an earlier song (Jock of Hazelgreen; Child 293E, to be specific), and it's sung to a traditional tune.

Subject: RE: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: banjomad (inactive)
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 07:00 AM

I feel certain that in reality Tommy Makem wouldn't claim to have written songs that he clearly didn't, but most record companies are mostly dishonest and would do it.
There once was [ and still may be ] an unofficial Bob Dylan website
claiming he wrote both words and music to EVERYTHING he ever recorded, including all the traditional songs and tunes. I know from my vinyl collection that he himself did not.
Dave

Subject: RE: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 07:28 AM

As this whole area causes confusion and acrimony, can I simply describe how the practise works. Say I play a gig at an Arts Centre, and fill out a PRS form saying what we've played( the PRS uses this random sampling to allocate performing royalties). Say I play the old jig "A Trip to the Lakes". When I recorded that, it goes down as "Trad arranged G Stephens "(with the record company I record with as publisher). That's the information I put on the PRS form. In the fullness of time the PRS computer, with any luck, will allocate me 35 pence or whatever. Considering the time I've spent collecting and researching Cumbrian tunes, I think it's fair I should get that money. If I just put "trad" the money would vanish into an amorphous pool and probably end up in Paul Macartney's pocket or something. I reckon I deserve it. I am emphatically not claiming that I wrote the tune, or expecting anyone else to pay me for playing it(even if they play my version which is different from the tune I originally learnt).

Subject: RE: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: GUEST,Guest.
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 08:04 AM

What about Traditional songs or copywright songs claimed by others.
Not arrangements, the complete song.

Subject: RE: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 11:31 AM

Remember that Tommy Makem first recorded for Tradition records, which was owned by Liam Clancy. SOMEONE was claiming some improbable copyrites. That's just the way it was done. Pete Seeger explains that when the Weavers complained that they DIDN'T write all those songs...thir manager said "Fine, do you want the record companies to get all the money that's collected"? It's hard to buck the system when you've become part of it.....even if you're one of the 'good guys'.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Song Ownership-Tommy Makem
From: DonMeixner
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 02:29 AM

Well the end result of my little question has developed a life of it's own. Opinions and questions are flying and some answers are being given. What beter use of this forum?

Our new CD which will be out March 9th will have on it.

"Four Green Fields"
"Can't Help But Wonder"
"The Night Rider's Lament"
"The Old Man"
"Donegal Danny"

And a recording of "The Mother's Kiss" which I wrote some time ago. Along with 10 others from the Public Domain. The recording studio won't reproduce any songs that aren't cleared so the five mentioned will be duly licensed and attributed to the authors.

Thanks to everyone for the replies and advice.

Don