Disservice to Folk Awards

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Grab
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 07:16 PM

LTS, it's cos there's Norfolking way this any good...

I nominate Russ Shipton. Not a bad set of guitar tutor books, all things considered, but you get the feeling occasionally that he hadn't listened to the tunes (most notably "Suzanne" in a reggae-ish rhythm). I found I was buying CDs just so I knew how the chords *should* go!

Oh, and Bob Dylan with his harmonica rack. BD seemingly extracted all the tunes available from it, and no-one else seems to be able to do anything with a harmonica in a rack that doesn't sound like a poor BD imitation. Don't ask me why - regular harmonica players manage to have their own styles, play tunes, do phrasing, etc, so I don't know why a harmonica rack seems to kill originality.

Incidentally Jeri, on a similar theme to your kiddy record player. A friend of mine works on mobile phones, and he was asked to come up with a bunch of ringtones quickly (in the days before you could download your own). Being a fiddle player, he dug out his book of tunes and punched in a few good ones. Apparently they turned out to be the most popular ringtones on that phone! :-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Joybell
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 09:11 PM

1. The maid who stuffed the big collection of old ballads into the fireplace to start her fires before Bishop Percy noticed what she was doing and saved some scorched ones. Around 1760ish.
2. Oliver Cromwell and friends.
3. The Norman Luboff Choir.

About the icecream vans. Ours here in Australia do indeed play Greensleves. A friend of mine's brother gets his revenge, (not as colourfully as Jeri I have to say though!) by telling his kids that when the van plays the music it means it has run out of icecream.
                                       Joy

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: el_punkoid_nouveau
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 03:50 AM

Eric (having missed a few) - I totally agree! It's about the worst thing that the Beeb could have done to "Folk Music".

Super ted - a bit pythonesque!

A further nomination - whoever coined the term "Folk Music", and got me labelled as a bearded loon wearing arran sweaters. I have been listening to (and performing) traditional music for over forty years (not bad, considering I still have a way to go to hit the big five oh) and I absolutely hate being called a "Folkie". It is a meaningless label - I subscribe to the Ray Charles view - there are only two types of music, good and bad. And even that is somewhat subjective!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: VIN
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 04:05 AM

To include the Spinners is itself a disservice to folk. If there was a 'Service to Folk Awards' thread then i would certainly nominate the four Spinners (& their bassist) for a special award for their contribution and promotion of the music to a wider (folk = people) audience. And Hughie Jones is still doing his bit!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 04:46 AM

The Spinners were regulars on BBC TV when I was a lad, fond memories.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: ThreeSheds
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 04:59 AM

Eric
Ignore what Ted says, I couldnot believe how far down this thread I had to read before that plonker Harding got a mention. As for Ted I know he has eclectic tastes but hes just posted an appreciation of the Spinners either he needs medication or he should change his prescription

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 05:05 AM

Andy you are a sherman tanker! It's time I started a mike harding/spinners/olly beak appreciation thread!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: ThreeSheds
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 05:31 AM

Ted you big Panzer whats an olly beak

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 05:33 AM

Wally Whyton's stuffed owl sidekick, don't you know anything you Merchant banker?

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: ThreeSheds
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 05:43 AM

Ted
Enough is enough just ask yourself who drives a Fiat

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 06:01 AM

What's wrong with Newcastle Uni running a degree course in Folk Music (the lovely NikNak is on it by the way)If someone is given the opportunity to study our hertitage they should and in most cases will disseminate that knowledge further, thus we ought to be promoting the expansion of such learning not decrying it. Furthermore the college itself will be in a position to gather and maintain a database of our collective history in dance, song, story and music ........ anyone have a problem with that

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 06:05 AM

As for the Spinners, I did the lighting when they played at my school in the late 60's. They got the audience going really well, one half chanting u wa wa u, wa wa u, brilliant all in time, the odd harmony, the other half doing a counter chant wa wa u wa, wa wa u wa, fantastic, the sound was wonderful ................



...then the Spinners joined in a f***ked the whole thing up !!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 06:40 AM

The nomination of Folk Clubs themselves as a disservice to folk is interesting. I was very active from the late sixties on in getting folk music out and about into the community, I put all my energy into pub sessions, pub gigs, carnivals, non-specific music festivals, theatre events, picnics, weddings, whatever. I didnt feel a particular hostility to the folk clubs: my feelings just led me elsewhere basically. Particularly as a result of some long discussions with Harry Boardman about what we ought to do with traditional NW English culture, I concentrated hard on anything that wasnt part of the developing "folk scene" of ghettoised clubs and festivals. The clubs had done a fantastic job in the previous decade of reviving, nurturing and developing things, but a lot of us felt then that it was time the music was hardened off and replanted in the wild.
   What the clubs can do cuts both ways. They can be seen as providing a safe environment to preserve and develop music that is not raucous enough to fit every into mainstream society(which good). Or precisely the same thing can be viewed as artificially peserving an uninteresting and prissy take on the music, which can never reach the man in the street(which is bad).
    Which view is right? Service or disservice? Or, as is often the case, a bit of both?

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: ThreeSheds
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 06:51 AM

Greg
Your posting was an interesting read and I agree with your a bit of both conclusion. I know many people who are put off folk music by folk clubs as they see folk muic as folk club music. I'm desperately trying not to fall into that "what is folk music" hole and falling/failing.
Music is Music

Andy

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 07:08 AM

I really must stop picking on Mike Harding, as a singer, musician and songwriter I have a great deal of respect for him but as a broadcaster of folk music he does it a very great disservice.

eric

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 07:12 AM

Thread drift: I went cycling last night with a lad who is doing an MA at Hull University in "Computer games programming" I kid you not! It's a real course! I am pleased that Newcastle are doing a folk degree, I just hope it is heavily weighted towards English music, and not some catch - all programme.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: VIN
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 08:39 AM

If i'm not mistaken did not Olly Beak partner Fred Barker on 'Five O'clock Club'? Now am i sad or what?

As for the Spinners (again)they tried to take 'folk music' out of the confines of clubs/pubs (or festivals) and take it to a wider audience (what they called 'the family of man'). That may seem a bit naive now and their presentation may have appeared at times, to some, to be a bit too straight or prissy but as Ralph Mctell once said 'You Well Meaning Brought Me Here'.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 08:45 AM

Dunno about Fred Barker, but Wally Whyton partnered olly, so did Ayshea Brough on ITV's "lift off" WOOF!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Ralphie
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:08 AM

Maybe a certain record company in Harrogate, N Yorks UK, should be in the top ten?
Can't for the life of me remember why though?!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Chris Green
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:12 AM

Alright, maybe I was hasty about the Spinners - a personal taste thing I guess. I note however that no-one has leapt to the defence of Foster and Allen! On that point I refuse to recant!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:13 AM

Foster and Allen = Mulligan and O'hare.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Chris Green
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:19 AM

Mulligan and O'Hare = comedy :)
Foster and Allen = tragedy :(

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Cool Beans
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 03:50 PM

Awful music played by an ice cream truck is not a new issue.
Stan Freberg (American humorist, for you across the ponds) did this song on his radio show, circa 1960. It was in a skit about Good Humor that's a brand name) ice cream trucks, sung by a chorus of drivers, to the tune of "Collegiate."

Humor, Humor, yes we are Good Humor
That is not no rumor,
Yay, oh,
Music, music, how we love the music
Lovely nursery music
Tinkling as we go.
Earplugs, earplugs, we won't wear at all
Or we could be sentenced to a hundred days of
Yankee Doodle
Worse than tutti fruit-le
Sell it by the oodle
Good Humor, we love you.
Yay.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: GUEST,The Stage Manager
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 05:17 PM

I'm have to agree with Eric T.R about Mike Harding. It always a tragedy when someone like M H gets sucked into one of those British institutions which seem to suck the life blood out of innovative and rebellious individuals.

It must have been in the early seventies that I saw MH at a the Thelwall FC on the outskirts of Warrington. In those days the Mersey was generally somewhere under 6 ft of foul smelling pink foam, and SELNEC busses had NO SPITTING notices on the upper decks.

Thelwall was rather on 'the bosses' side of town, and had the reputation, even in those days, of being a bit prissy. Harding was hilarious, outspoken,and brilliant. He succeeded in upsetting all the right people, not least the lady organiser who discovered him relieving himself in a wash-hand basin in the ladies loo during the interval.

I don't suppose he does that very often in the BBC.

SM

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Compton
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 07:33 PM

I suspect that Mr Harding has bugger all to do with the content of "The Folk Programme". With the exception of John Peel and perhaps Andy Kershaw, all D.J's and Presenters of Music on BBC..have a man at the back (Producer!) that decides playlist and content.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: GUEST,LIzzie
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 08:04 PM

Dunno about that mate. I love Steel Eye span, am BIG fan of Maddy Prior but feel that I have had them rammed down my throat by MH to the extent that I would feel resentful about buying one of their albums. Its EVERY single week, and he talks about them like they are the best and most amazing folk band in the world. Or at least it was every single week before I gave up listening. Why doesn't he promote people who are still unsigned, or on the way up? There are so many unrecognised people around.

A very well known performer once said to me that the problem with festivals is that it is amateurs booking professionals and that often they don't think about about what other people might like to see, or what would be a good variety, only what THEY like. Although MH could be said to be a professional in terms of his own music, I do think he only puts on stuff that coincides with his own personal taste.

Then again, perhaps it wouldn't matter so much if there was more folk on tv and radio full stop, and therefore more audience choice. I guess we can't blame Mikey for the BBC etc.. being rubbish at promoting this kind of music.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 03:44 AM

The question is Stage Manager, how did Mike reach a wash basin for a slash ? he must have stood on a chair.

eric

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: treewind
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 04:26 AM

Spot on, Compton. Smooth Operations (John Leonard &co) production company and Radio2 management makes the decisions about what to play and MH is the poor old figurehead wot gets all the bashing for it. He gets a bit o'fame too; I doubt I'd turn the job down if I was offered it. (as if I could do it...)

As long as Radio 2's policy is dictated from on high to be "celebrity led" (management's actual words) it's never going to be a credible supporter of folk music by many people's criterion.

BTW, nice posting from Squeezy John yesterday in uk.music.folk illustrating this very point:

when we were coming up with our material I volunteered a demo CD to them and the feedback was that it was not radio friendly and that our treatment of traditional song was too involved to do justice to the tradition. Now, nothing has changed in our music that was influenced by those comments - but our popularity has meant that we are now Radio 2 friendly. And that's the point. The Mike Harding show is market driven which I do not agree with in the case of a public service broadcaster like the BBC.

My "disservice" vote, by the way, goes to crass journalists who trot out old clichés about Arran sweaters, fingers in the ear and hey-nonny-no "local yokel" morris dancers... just for a cheap laugh. Not clever, not funny, guys, it just reads like the tired ramblings of a pissed old hack running on automatic. Unfortunately your average reader is taken in by it.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 05:48 AM

I did hear that John Leonard and Nick Barraclough have sold out Smooth Ops to another company, why doesn't this surprise me ?

eric

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: GUEST,The Stage Manager
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 08:51 AM

Good question about the chair Eric. I wasn't there to witness the event myself. The organiser insisted on on telling the entire club about it after the event. Perhaps there wasn't a chair available and she (the organiser) had to hold Mike up to the sink, which is why she was so narked about it.


I'm afraid I belong to those who tend towards the opinion that 'market or 'celebrity' led folk music broadcast by the mass media is likely to lead it to become something else entirely.

Singarounds were mentioned earlier. My first exposure to folk music was at the "Sing and Play' at the New Inn in Hurstpierpoint in the late sixties. (The New Inn which must have been a pub for at least 400 years old, was an Indonesian restaurant the last time I passed it). Scan Tester used to come occasionally, and impromtu interludes of dancing by (mainly) the Chanctonbury Ring side, I recall as being more like semi choreographed punch-ups, during which furniture and limbs were broken. Scan had died by the time I finished College.

My instinct is that Folk Music is at its best when a group of people get together on occasions like a 'Sing & Play for largely informal music making. I'd almost say a pre-requisite was that everyone contributes in one way or another, and nobody, including the organiser, knows what the final result of the evening is going to be.

Perhaps the formalities and rituals of some clubs, the concert format, and maybe even festivals, do act against the spirit of the music.

I did recently hear a programme by M.H. which was about some recently re-discovered field recordings from the 50s. There were all these old boys having a lark, bantering and a singing some great old songs. It was most definitely folk music when it was being sung. Somehow the intrusion of the microphone, and the turning of a convivial evening from long ago into a radio programme for Radio 4 with its inevitable 'informed comments' for me, turned it into something else.


Bill

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 11:34 AM

Satge Manager: the convivial evening recordings you referred to are well worth a listen in their entirety. The recordings were made in 1953 in various pubs in north Cumberland, by Norman Alford and Robert Forrester, of themselves and friends singing old Cumbrian songs and tunes. They have reissued recently on a Veteran CD(I havent the details to hand I'm afraid...I've got copies of the originals on cassette so I havent bought the CD), but it's called "Pass the Jug Around". The reissue was arranged by Sue Allan, the intrepid collector of Cumbriana, by the way.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: VIN
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 08:27 AM

I think the point made by compton above re Mike Harding's programme i.e. 'With the exception of John Peel and perhaps Andy Kershaw, all D.J's and Presenters of Music on BBC..have a man at the back (Producer!)'... sums up the problem with folk on the beeb. John Peel in the early days had a kind of partnership or understanding with his producer i.e the late John Walters, and together they broadcast some outstanding music.

Whatever control Mike has over his programme and whatever you think of the content, surely it's better than having no programme at all!?. I'm sure Mike tries to show as many aspects of the current 'folk/contempory' scene as his remit allows. I certainly would not consider his programme a disservice to 'folk'.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Compton
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 08:41 AM

As to "The Ancient" BBC, whence but a lad in short trousers, I remember, on a sunday, I think, the transmission of radio of the Alan Lomax, Peter Kennedy, field recordings on a programme called "As I roved out".'twas probably in the days following Reith, but had a lasting effect on me. The BBC then weren't catering to the masses...or were the masses simpler folk then!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: BanjoRay
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 10:30 AM

John Leonard of Smooth Operations is being accused in his thread of being the real source of the music choices on the Mike Harding programme. Nowt wrong with that, if true. John (Lenny) Leonard has served his time as a folk club turn for years, playing guitar and singing with John Squires on fiddle, and knows the business like the back of his hand. He's been responsible for running the Beeb's activities at Sidmouth and Cambridge festivals for the last few years as well. I think he does a great job, balancing up the many different ways folk in this country is treated. Whatever anyone did to produce the MH prog would be hated by some part of the folk world.
Confession - I used to be in a band (Balls, Banquets and Functions)with Lenny 30 years ago.
Ray

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 05:36 PM

So many negatives.

I went through the ritual of despising the Spinners when I thought I knew a bit about folk music, but now they are gone you don't hear The Bleacher Lass of Kelvinhaugh on mainstream TV any more.

Mike Harding I'm sure he does his best.

1950s bowderlised folksongs - well at least we heard folksongs at school.

I remember one night we were having an after hours chat in an Irish pub in Sheffield.

Somebody said Carrickfergus was their favourite song, and I said I remembered when Val Doonican used to sing it every week on the telly. he had a fancy jumper and I think he fancied himself as a handsome rover from town to town.

Somebody said God almighty that's put me off it.....

so many negatives!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: VIN
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 08:32 AM

Yes, you're quite right weelittledrummer. Must admit i did enjoy Val at times in thowdum days and have always enjoyed the Spinners. I think he introduced us to the great Dave Allen aswell if i'm not mistaken.

It's all a matter of personal taste (& age) at the end of the day i suppose.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 01:03 PM

Greg Stephens for culture secretary! I never knew there was a world outside of the folk scene for years...and that they might actually like folk music if they just got access to it!
On topic, John Tams for "Rolling Home", one of the worst songs ever written.
x e

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Crystal
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 01:08 PM

But John Tams did the music for the Sharpe films! That was a great service surely.
Plus it gave us good music AND Sean Bean looking georgously sexy in uniform!!! Yum!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Chris Green
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 01:22 PM

I suspect the antipathy to "Rolling Home" stems from the circumstances in which it's generally sung - the festival beer tent at closing time.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Chris Green
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 01:27 PM

And while we're on the subject of songs "The Wild f***ing Rover!" AAAARRRRRRGGGGHHHHH!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 01:39 PM

To WDET in the Detroit area of southeastern Michigan for deciding that we are better served by removing "Folks like Us" with Matt Watroba and "Arkansas Traveller" despite the fact that they were among the leading fundraising shows in their stock. They did this so they could move to a more "formatted" type of programming, among other reasons. They did this without advance notice, hence denying Matt the opportunity to even say goodbye to his loyal audience of 20+ years. Another example of how "public" media is whitewashing itself and doing a huge disservice to the folk community.

Mick

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: frogprince
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 01:46 PM

Amen, Mick.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Leadfingers
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 02:45 PM

If John Tams hadnt written Rollin Home , there wouldnt be the lovely parody Rolling Drunk !!!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: VIN
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 08:26 AM

I still like the Wild Rover (Alex Campbell used to do a grand version). It just got over-sung. I'm sure someone did a re-arrangement with not too long with a different tune which took it away from the usual folk 'standard'. Was it Dave Burland? Not sure.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Chris Green
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 01:57 PM

I've heard two alternate versions - one is a lament in a minor key and the other is a 6/8 jiggy affair. Trouble is, the guy who I used to work in a duo with insisted on doing one of the two at every gig we did. So I got sick of them, too! And since these were mainly crappy Irish theme pub gigs we wound up doing the proper version every night anyway! I would like the Wild Rover played at my funeral to make sure I'm dead and not just unconscious...

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Nerd
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 02:48 PM

The House Band did a good, mournful "Wild Rover."

As an American, I'd nominate the racists who beat up the Cajun/Creole music great Amede Ardoin for accepting a handkerchief from a white girl to wipe his face during a performance. This was long ago, of course, when lynch mobs were still the rule in Louisiana, and Amede was beaten til nearly dead. He never fully recovered and died, I think, only a few years later. Actually, I think racism in America has done a great disservice to folk (and folks) all around...

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: GUEST,pete
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 04:46 AM

I don't look in here as often as I should so I've only just seen the references to Ollie Beak and Fred Barker.Nothing sad about remembering them.What about Pussycat Willum while we're about it? Back to the subject. The Wild Rover was probably as good a song as any way back when but now there are people who think it is the only folk song in existance.Who's going to educate them?

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Leadfingers
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 05:02 AM

The Wild Rover is still a popular song in a NON folk event - At least people DO join in , even if its only the four stamps/Raps on the table .

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 05:06 AM

The 100th post....

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 05:07 AM

...is mine!