Why I Hate Folk Music

Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing 2
From: Bill Cameron
Date: 11 Dec 98 - 01:41 PM

By the way, editor Peter Blood told me recently (he's sort of a distant in-law) that the forthcoming Rise Up Singing 2 (stop that shuddering Jon) will have a lot more "bawdy songs and drinking songs" than the first one.

The intention of RUS was not to be a definitive collection of folksongs, anyway--it was a collection of songs they (peter and annie) liked which could be sung in a group. But I guess they've heard the oft-repeated criticisms of the book as being excessively PC,(gee, maybe Greil Marcus has seen it) and are broadening the scope somewhat. (I don't know if they'll still do those sneaky little changes to lyrics which might be construed as sexist or racist by some). If the first book hadn't been so amazingly successful, nobody would care--but it has become a de facto standard text.

Bill

Subject: RE:
From: Art Thieme
Date: 11 Dec 98 - 08:21 PM

THE FOLKSINGER'S WORDBOOK (Oak Publications) said much more to me than RUS. Recently I've been packing up to move. That means that it's potlatch time---ie. toss everything I won't use again! The first thing to go was RISE UP SINGING!! ALL (most, anyhow) of the songs I want copies of are in books and notebooks that are truly valuable to me. Good riddence to the rest...

I have never understood at all why my literature professors (and others) were/are so down on sentimentality. I love well-done sentimentality as much as I love the 60's ! Properly handled sentimentality (like Henry Lawsons work) can give grand insight during difficult times. Pricilla Herdman's __WATER LILY__ will ALWAYS be one o' my favorite albums---ever. I agree with you, Bill. (At least I think I do.)

Steve----There have been many times in my life that, if I'd been dead, I would've spun vigorously in my grave because of having MUCH DIFFERENT musical tastes than what was happening at the moment! Now, as I approach 58, I simply enjoy the panorama---marvel at the parade going by. It's all OK to me now. Que sera, sera... Sure is much easier to go with the flow. I was my own enemy for too long.

Thanks to Mudcat for being my shrink & lettin' me spew my spleen. Yuk, what a mess! Do wish my cats'd clean up after me like we do after them when they get rid of their hairballs! (Humor sure does help in my case; hope it don't get in folks' craws too much.)

You're all great folks. And with Dan Keding & Sandy here now, well, it's like sitting around the livingroom with no dishes to wash later.

Art

Subject: RE:
From:
Date: 13 Dec 98 - 08:34 PM

I have yet to read a staff critic from any Canadian newspaper who was fit to review folk music. The reviews are generally full of howlers and breath-taking ignorance, whether they are reviewing trad singers/musicians or "folkie" singer/songwriters. I remember reading one in a Toronto paper, probably the Star, of the Cape Breton fiddler Natalie MacMaster. While generally quite favourable the reviewer thought that the step-dancing was a gimmick, which showed her profound ignorance of the musical tradition of that island.

"Folk music" to most of these urbanite reviewers (who purport to be able to review almost any genre of music) means suspicious rubes with rotten teeth and a rope for a belt, sneaking away from picking the banjo on the collapsing front porch of their shacks to commit indecent acts on their sisters behind the outhouse.

They should farm these reviews out to qualified freelancers.

Most rock and alternative lyrics I've heard are pretty self-righteous, and often just quite selfish, petulant, and juvenile. And of rap and hip-hop lyrics the less said the better. Of course they may accurately reflect a certain culture, but then so did The Horst Wessel.

Subject: RE: Really, really weird coincidence
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 05:17 AM

To get away from opinion for a moment: I think it is a beatutiful song. What is its history? I remember there was a German song with the same tune called "Es Tut Mir Leidt" ("I Am Sorry") with the same tune.

[e-mail]

How's this for a really bizarre bit of serendipity...

I was reading this thread because of this link posted by wildlone on the "Spaw's Greatest Faux Pas" thread. A short time later, while listening to the CBC radio online, I heard a recording of Marlene Deitrich (sp?) singing a song in German to the same tune as "Where Have All The Flowers Gone". I'm pretty sure the time frame for her singing that song was around the time of World War II. I didn't hear a title being given for the song.

Subject: RE:
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 05:30 AM

Carol,

The Marlene Dietrich version is called "Sagt mir wo die Blumen sind" It's in the DT here

Subject: RE:
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 05:35 AM

I guess I'm just slow enough to need to ask this question... So did she record it around the time I thought she did, or was I totally off the mark?

Subject: RE:
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 06:03 AM

Taken from this page:

Marlene Dietrich first sang the song in Paris (in French, as "Qui peut dire vont les fleurs?"), presumably for a UNICEF concert in 1962.

Her recording for French Pathé is dated May 1962. Her September 1963 Washington D.C. performance of the song (in English) was lauded by the Los Angeles Times: "The ovation was enormous."

Subject: RE:
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 06:31 AM

Well then, oops. But I still think it's a pretty weird coincidence.

Subject: RE:
From: kendall
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 08:41 AM

Should I waste my time thinking about why some rock head doesn't like folk music? It's useless to play the violin in front of an ox.

Subject: RE:
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 08:44 AM

Joan Baez also sings the song in German on an early lp. Re: Greils statement about folk music, I've often thought people who hate it can't separate folk music from folk politics,(usually liberal and left).You hate the politics you hate the music. Not being able to think outside your politics is a great way to miss a lot in life.

Subject: RE:
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 02:19 PM

Well, I've got an inkling what Marcus is talking about. There was a lot of folk stuff in the early to mid-sixties that I find a bit sanctimonious, Little Boxes by Malvina Reynolds being typical of the genre, with its rather smug put-down of the bourgeoisie. I believe this stems from Folk's prevalence and popularity among college students at the time. This type of folk music is a variation, and is oddly more dated than what we would call true traditional music, the lifeblood of Folk. I think Marcus is being carried away by his iconoclast impulses. There is a kind of elitism associated with traditional music and musicians, but I don't think this is what Marcus was talking about. By elitism, I am referring to the effort by many traditional musicians to maintain "purity and authenticity" in instrumentation and other aspects.

Subject: RE: 'Wny I Hate Folk Music'
From: DougR
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 04:04 PM

YEA! At long last, I agree with a Guest! "Not being able to think outside your politics is a great way to miss a lot in life." One would think that anyone who could come up with a line like that, should be able to think of a good screen-name to use on the "Cat."

DougR

Subject: RE: 'Wny I Hate Folk Music'
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 04:58 PM

Yep, 'Profoundly Ignorant' just about sums it up; narrow-minded, uninformed people who make sweeping value judgements based on a miniscule--and marginal, at that--example of what they perceive a particular musical genre to be seem to my mind the least qualified to be in a position to disseminate their uneducated views publicly.

But that's just my self-righteous opinion! ;~)

Subject: RE: 'Wny I Hate Folk Music'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 05:37 PM

Ah, yes, but we have to decide what folk music is, before we can fully evaluate Griel Marcus's opinion of it. Let's put Griel Marcus to work, and give him a week to come up with an absolutely ironclad definition of the term "folk music" so that we can all know for sure just what it is that he hates, and why.

Let's see if Griel's brilliant mind can solve what no one else has been able to...that thorny question: "What is Folk Music?"

Then we can determine whether he has a valid reason to hate it.

If so, then he would be hating something of his own creation, namely his unique mental concept of what folk music is, and he would have only himself to blame for it.

As for "Where Have All The Flowers Gone", it is a song that could sound self-righteous, I suppose, depending on how it was sung...but it usually doesn't...not to me, at least...whether or not it uses the word "we" or "they". It sounds more regretful and mournful than anything else.

- LH

Subject: RE: 'Wny I Hate Folk Music'
From: heric
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 08:16 PM

Sweeping over- generalizations which sound important or profound are the mainstay of rock critics. Can you imagine having that job? He thinks the song sounds a little better with "we" instead of "they." Pete Seeger agrees with him. Not much more for normal people to say.

I had the same problem with Imagine, with the line "Imagine no possessions, I wonder if *you* can." It always distracted me because I would think of that guy's net worth and spending habits and think that's a bit much for him to be saying to me. I thought it quite tasteful of Neil at the WTC benefit to say "I."

I wouldn't want to try and roll out the presses with this profound and important concept however. Being a rock music critic would be an awful job.

Subject: RE: 'Wny I Hate Folk Music'
From: heric
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 08:20 PM

That line became even more grating when John's significant other made headlines with the comment that she did not feel financially secure with a net worth of $300,000,000.00. When asked what would provide her with a sense of financial security, she said $600,000,000.00. True.

Subject: RE: 'Wny I Hate Folk Music'
From: GUEST,'Nother Guest
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 10:49 PM

I'm so glad to see someone besides myself noticed that wonderful change Neil Young made in the song! At the point of hearing that, I began to cry--not because of overwhelming feelings about 9/11, but because he had made the song I had always objected to for the very same reasons as you, Dan, was suddenly made beautiful.

Just goes to show, an excellent interpretation can totally change who "owns" the song! IMO, that song belongs to Neil!

Subject: RE: 'Wny I Hate Folk Music'
From: toadfrog
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 10:53 PM

I second EJ. I may agree with the politics, but politics and music are not the same thing.

Subject: RE: 'Wny I Hate Folk Music'
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 03:06 AM

Let me say first, in case I come under fire, that I'm not actually a guest. I'm just on my In-Laws' computer and don't want to go getting my cookies in their software. When I get home I'll look like a member again! (in other words, you can dismember me now, but please remember me later!)

On to my two sheckels worth. The weirdest thing about Greil Marcus's comment is that, as I define folk music, Greil Marcus dos NOT hate it. In fact, he has written pretty eloquently about traditional American music in the past, and though he may be guilty of romanticizing "the folk" a bit, he flat out does not hate the music.

I think what's happening is more a question of genre terms than anything else. He probably thinks of Muddy Waters as Blues, Roscoe Holcomb as old-time, the Carter Family as country, etc. "Folk" he probably reserves (as many Americans do, alas) for the earnest productions of 1960s singer-songwriters.

However, to assume profound ignorance on his part would be a mistake. In fact, Marcus is probably the best-known rock critic in America who expresses real knowledge of and sympathy for roots music. Smithsonian Folkways, headed up now by Tony Seeger (not only Pete's nephew but a brilliant ethnomusicologist and a pretty good picker), asked Marcus to contribute an essay to the booklet for the Harry Smith Anthology reissue.

If Marcus chooses to hate earnest singer-songwriter music, I can disagree but I can't call him ignorant. If he chooses to use the name "folk" for that music, I can call him misguided, even plain old wrong, but again I don't think it's ignorant; he knows many folk enthusiasts have a very different meaning for the word "folk," including ballads, blues, and ozark fiddle tunes. He knows traditional folk music better than most Americans, and likes it more than most Americans. For some reason, he's not including traditional music in the term "folk" as he used it in the "I hate folk music" article. I don't know why, but it's not 'cause he doesn't know any better.

Again, i don't want to make him out to be a hero. Some of the comments in the Harry Smith essay might offend you, others might leave you scratching your head in puzzlement. But none of it makes me think he's ignorant. In fact, I'd love to get him here on the 'Cat and hash the whole thing out with all of us...he may have some interesting, albeit misguided, reason for not including true folk music in the category he calls "folk music."

Steve W. (Nerd)

Subject: RE: 'Wny I Hate Folk Music'
From: TeriLu
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 03:02 AM

Just wanted to let you all know that P.Seeger did a wonderful radio interview with Alan Chartok this past year on WAMC (90.3fm) in Albany, NY, in which he explained the history of the song in question. Apparently, he put new words to the German song on hearing the tune, and then sort of left it buried somewhere, not thinking much about it. A camp counselor came along and picked it up, and it became a hit with the camp crowd, and from there ended up with Marlene D. having a hit with it in Germany. It continued to go around the world, like "The Hammer Song", becoming popular all around, including in America. He says he was stunned with it's success. Don't quote me totally, but you might be able to hear the interview on the WAMC site.

Subject: RE: 'Wny I Hate Folk Music'
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 03:39 AM

That's where I learned it. In summer camp.

Subject: RE: 'Wny I Hate Folk Music'
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 11:41 AM

Interesting thread, and it's also interesting that it was only towards the end of the thread that I started to see comments that I agreed with. "Nerd" above is pretty much on the money as far as I'm concerned. My opinion:

I have read Greil Marcus, and while I don't always agree with him, he is one of the more pereceptive commentators out there on the subject of American "roots"-based music. His "Mystery Train" was one of the first books that really looked at the connection between older American folk and blues musics, and more modern pop music, including music by Elvis, the Band, Randy Newman, Sly Stone, and others. His "Invisible Republic" similarly looks at Dylan's Basement Tapes as they relate to older folk music traditions. Postings about what an idiot Mr. Marcus is only betray the poster's ignorance of Mr. Marcus's work.

Furthermore, I don't think Marcus should be required to come up with a universally acceptable definition of folk music (impossible task that it is) before offering his comments. When the rest of us reach agreement on the proper definition of folk music, I suppose we can justifiably criticize Mr. Marcus for ignoring certain work that we feel he should have considered before expressing his opinion. It's only a word, after all, and one that is defined in a variety of ways, as the many threads on this topic illustrate.

Finally, I do agree with Marcus that much of the politically-oriented "folk" music of the 50's, 60's and 70's was self-righteous to a fault. I happen to like "Where Have All The Flowers Gone?", but I have to admit that the line in question is a little hard to take. Evidently Seeger now thinks so too, or else he would not have changed it in his live performances; but even now, I think most people know it as "when will THEY ever learn". Moreover, in my opinion, "Imagine" is one of the most over-rated songs of the last 50 years. John Lennon was a great songwriter, but this was one of his lesser efforts, as far as I'm concerned. It's easy to whine about how "they" don't fix all the world's problems, while conveniently ignoring the fact that these problems are damn hard to fix, and if we really knew how to fix them, we would.

Anyway, I know this is an old thread, but I think some of us might benefit from a little more self-examination, and a little less knee-jerk defensiveness. Greil Marcus isn't always right, but there is some validity to his comments.

Subject: RE: 'Wny I Hate Folk Music'
From: TeriLu
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 12:55 PM

By the way, according to a documentary on PBS years ago, with home video shot at John and Yoko's home, Yoko wrote the poem, and John came up with the music to Imagine. she of course, gets little to no credit for it, and unless you saw this film, you wouldn't know it. FYI Happy 2002-TeriLu

Subject: RE: 'Wny I Hate Folk Music'
From: Amos
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 01:08 PM

Whistle Stop and Terri:

Thanks for providing that wonderful balance that informed judgement brings!! Refreshing voices in the wind of bristling offendedness!

LEJ, you still write like an angel. I am waiting for that first book.

A

Subject: RE: 'Wny I Hate Folk Music'
From: Art Thieme
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 06:58 PM

Folks,

There is a great German recording of Steve Goodman's "CITY OF NEW ORLEANS". It, like Marlena's cover version ('62) of Pete and Joe Hickerson's "Where Have All The Flowers Gone", must have (according to your reasoning) been the original that, obviously, was stolen by Stevie. Gimme a break? No need . I'm taking one anyhow.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: 'Wny I Hate Folk Music'
From: toadfrog
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 08:09 PM

I almost added something to this thread, & am glad I didn't. GUEST Nerd said everything that needs to be said, better than I ever could have. You tell 'em, Dweeb!

Subject: RE: 'Wny I Hate Folk Music'
From:
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 08:28 PM

I have no definitive knowledge of the origin of the song, but it seems I heard it was Chezkoslovakian...mg

Subject: RE: 'Wny I Hate Folk Music'
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 01 Jan 02 - 03:16 AM

Thanks, Toadie! :-)