Folklore: Percy Grainger

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Aug 19 - 03:05 PM

A story from Dave Bland who worked both for the EFDSS and for Bill Leader when he had his recording studio in Cecil Sharp House:-

Bill had worked meticulously to improve the quality of the recordings by Joseph Taylor and the other Brigg singers before releasing them on the Unto Brigg Fair LP in 1972. The sound quality of the album still sounded much less than we expect from later recordings. Bill posted a copy to the University of Melbourne where the complete Percy Grainger archives were kept. They sent a letter of thanks but added that it was a pity that Bill hadn't contacted them before starting out on this project as they had a complete unplayed set of the Grainger/Brigg 78s.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Aug 19 - 03:13 PM

Search link for Jane O'Brien's book:

AddALL dynamic link

Right now that gets one copy, 25 quid.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 25 Aug 19 - 10:05 PM

Stumbled into this thread, went to check if Aussie actor Richard Roxburgh was who I thought he was... and it was, and the entire movie, "Passion", is on YouTube (for now):

Passion on YouTube

"1999 biopic examining the life and career of the Australian-born musician best known as a concert pianist, arranger of folk tunes (e.g. Country Gardens, Brigg Fair) and his often bizarre musical inventions. He is lesser known as a self-flagellant with controversial sexual mores. His mother Rose is played by Barbara Hershey." 1 hr, 38 mins

~ Becky in Ashland(ish)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Aug 19 - 10:51 AM

Hi Vic,
That set of Brigg 78s looks as though it ought to be digitised and commercially available. I'll give Rod a nod.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 26 Aug 19 - 11:53 AM

From: GUEST,bigJ Date: 27 Apr 05 - 03:36 PM

"At the (English) National Folk Festival on Saturday the 9th April, Brian Dawson gave a talk on Grainger's visit to Brigg with Lucy Broadwood a century ago. During their visit the two of them noted down eight songs from such singers as Joseph Taylor, Dean Robinson and William Hilton, among them Brigg Fair, Creeping Jane, T'oud Yowe Wi One Horn and Come All You Merry Ploughboys. Grainger went back to Brigg later that year."

In April 1905 Percy Grainger and Frank Kidson attended the sixth North Lincolnshire Music Festival. A folk-song section offered a prize for the best unpublished old Lincolnshire folk-song or plough-song. The judge, Frank Kidson, awarded the prize for the best song to Joseph Taylor of Saxby All Saints for Creeping Jane. Grainger returned to Brigg in August 1905 to collect more songs.

Although the liner notes to the LP Unto Brigg Fair also add Lucy E. Broadwood, her diary says that she wasn't there before 1906 - Reinhard Zierke. At the 1906 Festival, Joseph Taylor was again awarded first prize, but this time he had to share it with George Gouldthorpe of Goxhill. The judge, Miss Lucy Broadwood, felt justified in awarding eight prizes. Mr G. Gouldthorpe sang a ballad entitled Six Dukes. Brigg Fair and a beautiful tune to William Taylor obtained the next prize for Mr Joseph Taylor.

The 1907 Festival was cancelled following the death of the mother of Gervase Elwes. It restarted in 1908 but without Elwes family involvement and without a folk-song section.

From: GUEST,padgett (at home) Date: 29 Apr 05 - 11:48 AM

"The LP Unto Brigg Fair vinyl 1972 Leader 4050 mono (Bill Leader)
Sleeve notes say that Percy recorded in 1906 and 1908 in Lincolnshire and it is the 1908 recordings which formed the basis of the vinyl record."

Grainger knew Broadwood and they became close friends. He began to use the phonograph during nine days' collecting in Lincolnshire in July-August 1906, and bought his own phonograph in 1908. Grainger revisited Lincolnshire in May 1908 to make more phonograph recordings, and in June and July 1908 brought Joseph Taylor to the studio of the Gramophone Company to make commercial disc recordings of his songs. The songs on the LP Unto Brigg Fair come from the cylinders and discs from these 1908 sessions.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 26 Aug 19 - 03:36 PM

If I remember correctly, the Joseph Taylor recordings on unto Bring Fair were from the commercial recordings, all of which appeared later on voice of the people (with one exception which Malcolm Taylor - no relation! - and I included on A Century of Song CD). The other non-Taylor recordings were from cylinder recordings and the quality of the recordings is not as good.
Derek

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 11:46 AM

Accounts are contradictory, but it appears that Joseph Taylor recorded twelve songs for the Gramophone Company. Ten of these were issued on 31 July 1908 as "English Folk-Songs sung by Genuine Peasant Performers". The Gramophone Company reportedly gave Joseph Taylor a set of the records, as well as a gramophone on which to play them.

All ten songs plus two more - Rufford Park Poachers and Gipsy's Wedding - were included on Unto Brigg Fair (1972), together with songs recorded on wax cylinders in Brigg by Percy Grainger. These included two songs by Joseph Taylor, Landlord and Tenant and Bold Nevison. Two of the Gramophone Company songs appeared on Hidden English (1996) and five more on The Voice of the People series (1999).

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 12:03 PM

Thanks for that link, Becky.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 12:22 PM

The mover and shaker of the 'Unto Brigg Fair' album was Bob (later "Professor Robert") Thomson, who worked with Bill Leader and Dave Bland on the project
He approached Ella Grainger for permission and acquired a full set of the field recordings to work from
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 01:53 PM

Is there a comprehensive (or other) listing of Grainger's folk song recordings anywhere? On line? I have a copy of Brigg Fair album. It might have a list in the sleeve notes.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 01:55 PM

Are all of the recordings published in the O'Shaughnessy books? I have all of those.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 02:33 PM

Apart from ours, there's a full set of the Grainger Collection a Cecil Sharp House
There is also a full set along with his Scandinavian recordings as The National Sound Archive
AS far as I remember, Shaughnessy published only some of them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 02:37 PM

Should have said - as with all collections, a full understanding of the songs comes from listening to them - printed versions are merely one-dimensional views of an important art form
Imagine trying to me sense of Beethoven's String Quartets from the printed page - I don't think so
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Vic Smith
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 03:10 PM

Mickey Hart, drummer with The Grateful Dead had a fascinating book called Songcatchers: In Search of the World's Music published by National Geographic. I don't think it was ever published in the UK: I bought my copy the year it came out in 2003 in New Orleans.
It is a popular book rathet than an academic book; the section on Percy Grainger is particularly interesting.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 05:02 PM

Thanks, Jim
Can't argue with the listening point but having a comprehensive list is a good start to the listening process.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 02:27 AM

Having enough people interested in listening to that sort of thing to avoid such an an important collection doesn't lie abandoned for as long as it has is a better one Steve
As far as the 'in print' thing is concerned
One of the wisest things aver wrote about the ballads was by Bronson
"When is a ballad not a ballad - when it has no tune"
He might have addded "when it is not sung"
THe pioneers got these things from mouth to paper - now they need tobe put back in singers' mouths if they are to survive
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 06:47 AM

Vic … The Mickey Hart book … I bought a copy in a discount book shop in the UK … no idea when, or where!
Derek

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 07:33 AM

Imagine trying to me sense of Beethoven's String Quartets from the printed page - I don't think so

Beethoven managed it.

Blacking describes what Grainger's notation was trying to do in his book. It's less necessary now that recordings can be more permanent, but the effort to describe a performance from the outside as precisely as possible is something future generations will always be grateful for. The modern terminology for Grainger's notations is "etic" - the contrasting "emic" notation that performers might use themselves is more useful to them, but not a lot of help when we no longer have performers who can understand it in the same way as the person who wrote it down.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Vic Smith
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 08:15 AM

Derek wrote:-
Vic … The Mickey Hart book … I bought a copy in a discount book shop in the UK … no idea when, or where!
Derek

I did eBay and Amazon searches for this book before I put my previous post up about it and only got hits for sales from the USA - and usually less than half of what I paid for it. However, back in 2003, the £ was so high against the $ that everything that we bought in America all seemed very cheap. 😠

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 08:27 AM

To say it was cheap as chips would be to wildly overestimate the price of chips.

dynamic search link

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 08:47 AM

"Beethoven managed it."
Rumour had it that Beethoven was so deaf the thought he was a painter
Jim Carroll