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Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: GUEST Date: 25 Jun 05 - 07:21 AM Mugabe is 'decimating homes', is he? Taht's a definite improvement if only 1 in 10 is being rased. |
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: Piers Date: 25 Jun 05 - 07:28 AM Political leaders have been promising and failing to make poverty history for years. Why is this time going to be any different? Especially seeing as all that is being demanded are reforms to capitalism. More and better aid might help some hungry people in the short term, but is unlikely to bring a decent standard of living. Dropping the debt will make things easier for the state in these African countries, but governments always act in the interest of the rich - be it by waging war or providing relief where the system fails to meet basic needs - not the majority of people. Making trade fair will provide a better deal for emerging African capitalists, so what? - it doesn't gaurantee better conditions for the emerging working classes in Africa. It takes no account of the fact that most people are poor because they don't own the means of producing life. Unless you challenge this fact, that is unless you challenge capitalism, you are hindering social progress toward a world where everyone stands in equal relation to the means of living and there is no poverty at all - let alone promising to halve poverty in twenty years time when most of the kids starving now will be having children of their own. Demanding concessions from the representatives of the rich through praying, pleading or direct action will get us nowhere. If we want a society for ourselves, we have to take power by ourselves. The world for the workers! |
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: Lizzie Cornish Date: 25 Jun 05 - 05:27 PM Piers....I agree with you. So go to the Oxfam Gift site here: http://www.oxfamunwrapped.com/ Buy SOMETHING so that a farmer can become independant, buy 50 trees which will not only feed the family but which will provide fruit that they can sell on, start a business for someone, sponsor a teacher who can educate so very many children to want a better life and show them how to get it.....but Piers.....DO SOMETHING and make a difference to some people's lives. We can all do it if we want it badly enough! So this time....MAKE IT WORK! Help those people to work for themselves and make their lives better for their families. Lizzie :0) |
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: Piers Date: 26 Jun 05 - 05:52 AM Lizzie, Charity will not change the fact that where profit comes first - be it 'independent', state or privately owned - people will come second. The things you suggest might help today, but tomorrow we will be faced with the same problem. The idea that one can somehow trade or work one's way out of poverty is a fallacy. Maybe somebody does work their way out poverty, but then the exploited becomes the exploiter and the majority of people are still in penury. Capitalism is like Death Monopoly. I agree wholeheartedly that everybody should be doing something but following the myth that capitalism can somehow be made to work in the interests of everybody is merely prolonging the disease. Capitalism means minority control of resources, production for profit and allocation of goods and services according ability to pay. Unless we negate the system with one based on common ownership and democratic control of resources, production for use and free access to goods and services then be prepared to continue begging your 'benevolent' masters for a little grace forever, while poverty, war and environmental damage continue unabated. There is no reason why we can't have a world of plenty for everyone, a world of co-operation amongst equals. But to do this we have to stop clinging to the decrepid ideas of leaders and followers, our nation and theirs, and then take power by ourselves for ourselves. |
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: Lizzie Cornish Date: 27 Jun 05 - 05:09 AM Well I don't know Piers....I'm confused. Aren't you saying what I'm saying, but more eloquently? Aren't we all pretty much saying the same thing here? This isn't about charity it's about us all saying what you're saying, but saying it together. The whole point of the Oxfam 'Gifts' is to enable people to stand on their own feet, and be in control of their lives, not just to dish out food and clothing as they've done in the past. All the aid agencies have learnt so much over the years, but unless everyone gets behind them how do they move forward? The whole point of Live 8 is to get our so-called 'Leaders' to realise that they are there to do what WE want them to, but surely that will only work if the majority wants it to work. Bob Geldof and all the other hard working people involved, are working their socks off to try and get us to do just that. Maybe, just for once...we all need to leave the usual cynicism behind and just go for it!! Who knows what might yet happen if we do....... Lizzie |
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: Fibula Mattock Date: 27 Jun 05 - 07:16 AM Didn't lots of us protest and march against the war in iraq? Hmm, where was the huge impact there...? |
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: Piers Date: 27 Jun 05 - 08:25 AM Hi Lizzie, I don't think we are quite saying the same thing. Oxfam is saying that people can be in control of their lives and stand on their own two feet by becoming small business people or what have you. I think this is wrong. It fails to take into account that in capitalism wealth tends to migrate into the hands of a few as it is in the developed world - huge inequality. In the UK one of the most adavnced capitalist countries, almost two thirds of all wealth is owned by 5% of the population. This wealth is constituted of the means of producing things that we need to live: food, shelter, transport, computers etc. You cannot be in control of your life if someone else is in control of the things you need to live. I'm not suggesting a return to small scale production or hunting/gathering, I'm suggesting using that the productive resources that exist should be controlled directly through democratic decision making. We have the productive facilities for there to be enough for everyone on the planet. Developing regions do not need to go through the slow development process they could have the resources now but the market, i.e. the capital owners need for profit, says they cannot. This is the material base that the political system is built on. Politicians merely regulate the different sectors of capital. Unless we can get MPs that are mandated by those they represent then MPs will go on acting for those who fund their parties (the rich) and fund the state (the rich). Government can only exist for Make Poverty History, Live 8 and Oxfam want Africa to become an developed capitalist society. This has the support of rich popstars and capitalist politicians because it leaves their privilege unscathed. This is the society we are in now, we don't have the extent of abject poverty that Africa has, but they are talking halving (absolute) poverty in tens of years when it could happen in a year or two with an immediate increase in agricultural production and healthcare (it can't happen, it is not profitable - millions are condemned to death by capitalism), but we have immense relative poverty, war, environmental destruction, waste, unfulfilling jobs that produce nothing to do with real human needs but are simply about making money (for the rich). In abolishing capitalism and having a society based on common ownership of resources, democratic control of those resources and as a result free access to the goods and services produced, poverty will be abolished for good. |
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: Lizzie Cornish Date: 02 Jul 05 - 08:15 AM Well put Piers. I thought I'd refresh this thread as we're just starting to watch the Live 8 coverage which has just begun on the BBC. U2 are on at present. Let's hope it makes a difference and that all goes well around the world. Bono is just saying that the rock-stars and the hip-hop stars can't make much of a difference, but their audiences can as it's us that vote in the politicians and us that CAN change things He said he's not asking us to put our hands in our pockets but he IS asking us to put our hands in the air and be counted. Right..I'm off to watch for a while. Lizzie :0) |
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: Tam the man Date: 02 Jul 05 - 08:24 AM There is an English butcher in Edinburgh and he is all worried because he will lose £400 today because the marchers in Edinburgh, Well to him and his fellow capitalist sod you all. Human lives are more important than money. Tom |
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: The Borchester Echo Date: 02 Jul 05 - 08:30 AM Live streaming of Africa Calling (as opposed to the 'orgy of the bland') here. |
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: Le Scaramouche Date: 02 Jul 05 - 09:50 AM Is it just me, or have Coldplay earned the title of 'most boring band in the world'? |
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: Lizzie Cornish Date: 03 Jul 05 - 03:32 PM 'Scaramouche'...you watched the wrong concert!! Get yourself to the link about in Countess Richard's post and watch some highlights of the right one! Diane....thanks for the 'Africa Calling' Eden link. I watched that last night, tuned in just as Tinariwen were playing. It was fantastic! By the time Daara J had finished I was so angry about the lack of TV coverage they'd been given from Eden. That concert should have been filmed and shown in its' own right. Those musicians were just incredible! We tried to get tickets, but to no avail. This morning they were showing highlights on the internet, so I got to watch even more acts that I'd missed last night. There are 7, out of 21 who took part, that BBC Cornwall is showing over the next few days. I was so impressed by Geoffrey Oryema. What an incredible voice he has and he's a superb guitar player. Hearing him sing his song 'Bombs keep falling' just bowled you over! Also Thomas Mapfumo talking about Zimbabwe and how we have to get rid of all the Dictators in this world. What an impact he would have had in Hyde Park. The BBC should be ashamed of the miniscule amount of coverage they gave Eden on mainstream television. And to hear and see Shikisha playing inside the Domes of Eden was spectacular! While I'm sitting here typing this I'm listening to Modou Diouf and his family...ALL drummers and the sound is just...well....you HAVE to listen to them...in fact you HAVE to listen to EVERYTHING on here! Eden was Live 8 to me. Hyde Park was egos. Wouldn't it be great if 'Africa Calling' now became a major programme to be screened to coincide with July 6th. Don't give me Elton John EVER again...OR Velvet Revolver!!!.....Just give me Geoffrey Oryema singing these words of his, which he sings with such conviction: "Bombs are falling, our nations are burning Bombs are falling and leaves are drying Bombs are falling, what a careless world Our mothers are crying, where are all the children? The wind keeps blowing, expensive bombs keep falling The wind keeps blowing, it will blow your worlds away Give me your number I will call you tomorrow I don't want your number, we have to talk face to face Bombs keep falling, people keep dying Fields are burning, mothers keep crying Bombs keep falling, mothers keep crying Fields are burning, mountains are falling" And the way he sang that would have had more impact than almost all those Hyde Park egos rolled into one! Go and listen to him...second song in his act...and that is followed by Peter Gabriel and Johnny Kalsi joining him for a song about exiles. "In this land of another...." Very, very moving. And finally....Radio 3 are playing two hours of highlights from Eden's Africa Calling, tomorrow, Monday 4th July 7.30 to 9.30pm on their 'Performance on 3' programme.....here's the link:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/performanceon3/pip/v2br5/index
Hope you enjoy it all.
Lizzie :0) |
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: Lizzie Cornish Date: 03 Jul 05 - 03:41 PM Sorry...seem to have 'Blue Clickyed' over-zealously there. Don't know what I did wrong! I also forgot to say that the most moving moment, for me, in the Hyde Park concert was when Bob Geldof showed us the film of Live Aid 20 years ago, with all the children starving in their mothers' arms. Then the film closed with one child seemingly drawing her last breath and just about to close her eyes. It was incredibly upsetting, everyone became silent, Bob included. Then he told us about that little girl. Twenty years ago she was given just a couple of hours to live, but miraculously she survived. She has just finished her University education and he brought her on stage. She was the most staggeringly beautiful, dignified young woman and it literally made you choke back the tears. Let's hope those 8 men were watching last night and saw how many people want this crazy world changed. They are only there to serve us and it's about time they woke up to that fact as well as us. Lizzie |
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: katlaughing Date: 03 Jul 05 - 03:47 PM We saw that footage over here, Lizzie. It was stunning, the tears did not cease to fall for quite awhile. Thanks for all of your postings and links. You others as well. THIS gives one hope for this sorry auld world...so MANY people gathering together for such wonderful reasons and making their voices heard. If we keep that momentum and cohesiveness going they cannot ignore us!! May Peace Prevail, kat |
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: GUEST,Canadian Date: 03 Jul 05 - 03:48 PM "They are only there to serve us and it's about time they woke up to that fact as well as us." Respectfully, those eight men connected with international money are there to serve their masters, and we ain't the masters. People do NOT matter to them. Never have and never will. They worship power and dollars. |
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: GUEST,Canadian Date: 03 Jul 05 - 03:49 PM PS Bless all of the folks who tried. |
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: Lizzie Cornish Date: 03 Jul 05 - 04:52 PM Which has more power.....a million dollars or a million angry people? Napoleon, when talking about China, was supposed to have said: "There lies a sleeping giant....let her sleep, for when she wakes, she will shake the world". Well, that 'sleeping giant' could also be apathy. It has kept us all silent for decades. But there comes a time when all 'giants' wake up and I think that we've reached that moment. If those 8 men choose to look the other way and continue to run this world purely for power and greed then watch this world begin to 'shake' Lizzie |
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Jul 05 - 05:09 PM Capitalism can mean all kinds of things - a group of people lending money to someone who wants to set up a workshop to make something useful, that's one kind. A bunch of rich crooks organising to exploit and steal the resources of a community on the other side of the world, that's capitalism too. The point of this whole operation was to send a message to the people who run the planet that they need to watch their backs, because while they are cosying up to their bosses in the corporations, there is a groundswell of ordinary people who are wanting something different, and the clock is ticking. And that message is mostly aimed at Bush - and the people who pull his strings on behalf of the people who his proprietors. I taped most of the London show, because I had other stuff to do, and I knew that there'd be a whole lot of it I'd sooner let the tape machine listen to than listen to it myself. I've found myself fast forwarding over much of the music; the best bits tended to come in between the music, from what I've seen so far. The Eden Concert looks pretty good though - and the little snatches I've seen from Canada and Jo'burg. Philly - well, mostly not my kind of music from the bits I've seen. Why should it be? Yes I know if, we on the Mudcat were choosing the muusic it'd be a far better concert to listen to (though we'd fight like hell about what to inclkude) - but people out there wouldn't be listening to it. Strange but true. Anyway, if someone comes up with a link to Neil Young closing the Canada concert, it'd be good to to see that. Great to hear that he's back making music again. |
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: akenaton Date: 03 Jul 05 - 06:56 PM What a sad reflection on the impotence of our great "democratic" society. As my favourite pundit ...Simon Jenkins, said to day " A song in their hearts, and not much at all in their heads". It turned out much as I expected, the message lost among the hype, the egos and the polite applause of the politicians. The most tragi-comical part of the pantomime,was when St Bob gave the clenched fist salute to an audiance who must have thought it meant "something completely different". As I watched him stand to attention, I remembered the newspaper pictures with his tousled head on Blairs shoulder and I started to throw up. Geldof will rise in my opinion if he joins us at Gleneagles and gets the shit kicked out of him by the "polis", but I wont hold my breath....Ake |
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Jul 05 - 10:50 AM "...St Bob gave the clenched fist salute to an audiance who must have thought it meant "something completely different". I rather doubt that. The clenched fist is still pretty widely recognised and used as a symbol of solidarity and defiance. No it's not going to change the world the way it needs to be changed, but it might make it a little easier to get it moving that way, and a bit harder for the people in powewr as they try to stop that happening. And there now lot of people who know a lot more about the issues, and a care a lot more then there were before and than there would have been without it. That's worth while. All right, there are a lot of people with dodgy motives climbing on the bandwagon. But people with dodgy motives only try to climb on a bandwagon when it looks as it might actually be going to get somewhere. Or going to roll over them. .............. That clip of Neil Young in the Canadian Concert - it's on one of the AOL sites about Live 8 - here. Only thing is, Firefox doesn't seem to be able to play the clips, so I had to use Internet Explorer for once. And for some reason Neil in that list on the page I linked to, along with a lot of other people (such as Great Big Sea - that Canada concert looks to have been a bit different), including those from the concerts in Japan and Jo'burg. But you can get them via the search engine on the page. |
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: dianavan Date: 05 Jul 05 - 09:41 PM Those 8 men are listening but they cannot commit to a dollar amount for future aid. They may not be around then. Seems to me that Geldof should have asked for immediate action. Asking someone to commit to something in the future is a bit 'starry eyed.' BTW - Hats off to Ireland for already contributing the largest percentage of per capita income. Did you know the Pink Floyd's CD is off the charts? Thats what I call a benefit! How much will they be contributing? |
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: The Borchester Echo Date: 05 Jul 05 - 11:20 PM Pink Floyd have already said they will be donating their extra royalties and are urging others to do so: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/music/4651309.stm |
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: GUEST Date: 06 Jul 05 - 01:36 AM Miss your shot this morning? |
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: Piers Date: 06 Jul 05 - 04:08 AM I had enjoyable day in Edinburgh on Saturday. It was great that so many people (~225,000) turned up. However, the goals of MAKE POVERTY HISTORY are about a useful in making poverty history as beating up policemen or trying to close down the G8. If they do not understand that poverty flows from the wages system, that production is restricted to where it is likely to produce a profit for the few who own and control the means of production, how can they make poverty history? Between 1990 and 2003 Sub-Saharan Africa's national debt repayments have fallen by 30%, to 2.2% of the GDP according to the World Bank. In real terms aid to Sub-Saharan Africa has increased. This is what MAKE POVERTY HISTORY want. But life expectancy in the region declined from 50 to 46. The number of malnourished people has increased between 1991 and 2002 by 24%. In a world of potential plenty all Make Poverty History can do is ask for EXTREME poverty to be halved in TEN years. More than twenty years after Live Aid there are even more hungry people in Sub-Saharan Africa. It is highly likely that in twenty years time Bob Geldof, or someone like him, will be organising another concert for the hungry. Just as 'Make Poverty History' replaced 'Feed the World' they will have to come up with another slogan. We have to stop believing that leaders and governments will ever act benevolently towards towards working people, they never have. We have to stop supporting capitalism to make poverty history. Piers PS Eliza Carthy was there and I offered her one my leaflets. She refused. Piers was very dissappointed. |
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: Peace Date: 06 Jul 05 - 04:18 AM Well said, Piers. Bravo to you and the folks who turned out. You tried. |
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: The Borchester Echo Date: 06 Jul 05 - 04:32 AM Eliza Carthy was there and I offered her one my leaflets. She refused. No doubt she was being offered leaflets left right and centre and you can't take 'em all. Doesn't mean she wouldn't be interested in what you have to say and possibly debating it another time. She's more than capable with her keenly reasoned views on many a subject . . . |
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: GUEST Date: 06 Jul 05 - 04:58 AM lol to keenly reasoned views. |
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: GUEST Date: 06 Jul 05 - 06:21 PM Well....it's 11.10pm here in the UK and I've literally just finished watching the incredible Annie Lennox deliver her speech about Making Poverty History, to tens of thousands of people in Murrayfield Stadium and that fine lady spoke every word with such heartfelt passion that it made me get up and come here to write this. Her words 'Piers' and her views are what this whole campaign is about. (Well done for being there, by the way!) At times she could barely hold back her emotions but the crowd went absolutely wild at the end of her speech. She outshone everyone else that I've seen so far in the whole of this spectacular week. You felt that she meant every single word, espcially when she finished with her words for the politicians which were that if they still choose to ignore how the world is feeling about all this, then they do so at their own peril. Good for you Annie!....You tell them!! Thank you for putting into words what so many of us are feeling! If ANYONE has a link to the concert and Annie's speech I'd be very grateful, as I'm sure that others would like to hear what she had to say and how she said it. Lizzie |
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: Piers Date: 07 Jul 05 - 03:49 AM I've no doubt that Annie Lennox and most of the people involved in MAKE POVERTY HISTORY and LIVE8 genuinely do care about extreme poverty. However, the strategies they support have failed in the past and unfortunately they are unlikely to work in the future and everyone will forget about it for another twenty years. That's what I was in Edinburgh to say, and I did my part of distributing 10,000 leaflets, 1,000 magazines and lots of little cards putting the case for really trying to make poverty history. More than 100 years ago Oscar Wilde wrote: "Their remedies do not cure the disease; they merely prolong it. Indeed their remedies are part of the disease. They try to solve problems of poverty for instance, by keeping the poor alive; or, in the case of a very advanced school, by amusing the poor. But this is not a solution: it is an aggravation of the difficulty. The proper aim is to try to reconstruct society on such a basis that poverty will be impossible." Leo Tolstoy wrote the perfect analogy: "I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back." As long as the productive resources which we all depend upon are owned and controlled by a minority of society then there will be poverty. The need to dump the bosses off our backs is greater than ever. |
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: s6k Date: 07 Jul 05 - 07:12 AM miss dynamites speech was also brilliant, and bob geldofs where he brought out that girl and said tell me we are not helping. |
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: akenaton Date: 08 Jul 05 - 07:06 PM Surprise surprise....The much vaunted G8 produced next to nothing. Most of the aid turns out to be "old money" spun as "new money", nothing on trade reform, lack of urgency in tackling AIDS/HIV, and most importantly no progress on climate change....the Americans are calling for a "long term solution". The aid agencies are unanimous in stating their disappointment in the strongest terms. "We expected a roar from our leaders ,and got nothing but a whisper" One positive aspect to come from the summit is that Blair seems to have grown tired of his role as Bush's poodle and decided to acquire one of his own "Greyfriars Bobby " Geldof. Its all been so predictable, and I feel sorry for good people like Lizzie, who's infectious energy and enthusiasm have been so cynically betrayed. Piers is right, to defeat poverty we must first defeat the systems which produce inequality hatred and injustice....Ake |
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: s6k Date: 08 Jul 05 - 08:43 PM errr.... i thought nothing had been decided over in scotland yet? blair came back to london after the bombings.... so what are you on about? |
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: Piers Date: 09 Jul 05 - 02:50 AM In their final communique, the G8 agreed to: - Double development aid to $48bn (�28bn) by 2010. [Piers notes: This will still not come near the 0.7% of GDP demanded by Make Poverty History if my calcs are correct] - Write off debt initially for 18 African countries. [Piers notes: MPH asked for full debt cancellation for poor countries of which there are more than a hundred] - Provide "as close as possible" universal access to treatment for HIV/Aids; tackle malaria, TB and polio; education; and train a further 20,000 peacekeeping troops. - Open dialogue between the G8 and emerging countries on climate change, with the first meeting in London in November, but no targets for cutting carbon emissions. - Provide $3bn a year for the next three years for the Palestinian Authority to help build up institutions. - Establish a "credible end date" for a trade agreement to eliminate export subsidies. [Piers notes: MPH asked for a new trade rules, the end to damaging subsidies and laws to stop big business profiting at the expense of people and the environment] http://www.guardian.co.uk/g8/story/0,13365,1524773,00.html "The section on climate change in the Gleneagles communique published yesterday is not fundamentally different from that contained in G8 communiques since 1990, with lots of expressions of concern, but stopping short of proposed action: no targets and no timetable." http://www.guardian.co.uk/g8/story/0,13365,1524737,00.html The white bloc got a more promises than concessions, the black bloc got a crack on the head and a prison bed, and everybody just ignored the reds. What's the point, eh? I'm just going to look after me from now on. |
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: Peace Date: 09 Jul 05 - 02:53 AM No, Piers, you won't just look after you from now on. That is not the kind of person you are. But I sure know the feelin'. |
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Subject: RE: Every 3 seconds...a child dies...Live 8 From: GUEST Date: 09 Jul 05 - 03:56 AM Every 1.18 seconds a child is BORN
Obla Dee, Obla Dah, life goes ON!!!!Hahhhh
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