BS: How Many Mudcatters?

Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcatters?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 May 02 - 08:34 AM

one instance: Folk and Traditional Music links

that comes up in a search for "American Folk Music" in Google and has Mudcat listed.

I found several dozen sites when searching for "American folk music" and "Mudcat" combined

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcatters?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 02 - 08:49 AM

Wolfgang, I never said that there weren't hits to sites which included Mudcat via a link. What I said is the site itself, on it's own, didn't show up in the searches.

I stand by my original assertion, which wasn't meant to "prove" anything more than my surprise at Mudcat not showing up in the google search.

I am, OTOH, not the least bit surprised that Mudcat/DT comes up quickly in a search for lyrics/songs. It is my opinion (and I'm not claiming anything but opinion here) that the main use of this site is the DT lyric database, and that it likely accounts for the majority of hits. However, because none of us has the information about that and Max hasn't provided a breakdown, my opinion, like everyone else's, is pure conjecture.

Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcatters?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 May 02 - 09:01 AM

This is one of the hits when I enter "American Folk Music" in Google. Close enough?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcatters?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 May 02 - 09:17 AM

"We all know that "folk" music is actually a trademark of the British folk."

I've certainly have never heard that, and would dispute whether it is true.

"blues and folk music" seems to come up with Mudcat at the top, but "folk music" doesn't and nor does "blues". All very strange. Still it strikes me enough of us find our way here to keep it interesting and that's what matters.

And hunting around in Google I turned up some interesting sites I hadn't come across before - such as Folk Music Archives, which is well worth visiting, with interviews and pictures of various American folk musicians.

Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcatters?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 02 - 09:26 AM

Wolfgang, I am talking about the pages of the Google search results. The page you provide the link to isn't what I see when I type in "American folk music" in the blank line at the Google page.

The 1st blue clicky you provided takes us to a links page of another website, not Mudcat. As the list of hit results in my above post shows, there is also no result for the Mudcat page you give the blue clickie to (the Woody article) in your 9:01 a.m. post.

If your click on one of those hits takes a person directly to Mudcat, I'll stand corrected. Until then, I'm right, you're wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcatters?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 May 02 - 09:49 AM

Can anyone join in? *G*

Google works by measuring how many links there are from other sites to (say) Mudcat and uses that to judge the sites importance. It is relatively difficult for Max to influence this, although that has been some recent accounts of people doing so. But search engines chnage the results they show constantly and what they show next week could be different.

HOWEVER, what does it matter? If Mudcat were a commercial site it might, but it isn't.

I would be more concerned actually, with people who have registered, posted actively for, say, six months and then dropped out, since this would show that Mudcat was failing them in some way. That's a very different group of people to those who have never heard of Mudcat and get directed into it as a result of a search.

Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcatters?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 May 02 - 09:51 AM

OK, GUEST, here's how it goes:

I type "American folk music" in Google and roughly 15,000 hits. Instead of scanning all 15,000 (you also gave up after some pages) I am lazy and make a second search only among those 15,000 hits for "American Folk Music". I enter this time "Mudcat Cafe" and on the second page I get the link in my last post which by definition must have been among the 15,000 hits for "American folk music".

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcatters?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 02 - 10:03 AM

Well duh Wolfgang. When you enter "Mudcat Cafe" it comes right up no matter when you enter it.

I stand by what I said. When the keywords "American folk music" are used in a Google search, Mudcat doesn't show up. Period. End of story.

You can continue to try and play the manipulation game Wolfgang, but I see what you're doing. And now, you can play with yourself all you want, because I'm done with it. It just ain't that big a deal.

As to the "what does it matter?" question--I'd disagree that non-profit status renders the question meaningless. If you are trying to provide a service, either at a non-proft site or a commercial one, you do want people to be able to find you and avail themselves of it.

I would suggest that people with an interest in American folk music, rather than British folk music, would conceivably use the words "American folk music" to do a keyword search at Google. As McGrath pointed out, many truly rich and wonderful sites come up as results. Mudcat isn't one of them, and I thought that was odd, given the sites popularity for lyric searches, and given the number of links Mudcat has from other sites I visit.

Perhaps it is just because the newer sites offer so much more, ie the Library of Congress American Folklife sites, the Contemplator site, North American Folk Alliance, etc. all have good sites for American folk music. This site remains pretty Brit-centric, and has little blues content compared to other blues sites, so it probably makes sense that Mudcat doesn't show up anymore in keyword searches for "American folk music" considering how little has been added to the non-DT part of the site over the years. I don't count the forum as a resource really. Too hard to search, and the information given is too often wrong, especially if you are doing academic research. If you had to choose between Mudcat and American Folklife, or even Mudcat and Contemplator to use as your sources, I think it is pretty obvious you wouldn't choose Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcatters?
From: MMario
Date: 21 May 02 - 10:12 AM

guest - if you search on "American Folk Music" and then search within the results on "Mudcat cafe" - it only comes up if it existed in the previous search. since it does come up, then obviously a search on "American Folk Music" *does* indeed yield a link to the 'cat.

BTW if you search on "folk archive" it is the first link.

Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcatters?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 May 02 - 10:14 AM

GUEST,

I guess a simple three word sentence like 'I stand corrected' or 'I have erred' or 'I was wrong' is beyond your abilities.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcatters?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 May 02 - 10:17 AM

I don't think of Mudcat as a service or a resource in that way. The resource is access to a large number of people who are prepared to take the time and trouble to answer - to the best of their admittedly fallable ability - questions on folk and blues largely based on their own current experience of performing that music. That is a different sort of resource to, say, the Vance Randolph or Child books, or to archive recordings. Yes, if you are interested in academic research formal libraries are what you need and sites that make these resources available to the world via the web are fantastic. But its not the same thing as people performing today. And the Mudcat resource, in my terms, is not one that search engines like Google are terribly good at finding. But they do find it if you are interested enough. Its how I got here!

Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcatters?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 02 - 10:17 AM

Mudcat only comes up as a link through other websites that come up in your search results. Like I said MMario, nice try but you are just as wrong as Wolfgang. Type in "American folk music" at google, and Mudcat doesn't come up on it's own in the results.

I am right. And here's a traditional American folk Brooklyn salute to you.

Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcatters?
From: Amos
Date: 21 May 02 - 10:19 AM

This is totally specious; searching on "blues and folk music" turns up Mudcat three times on the first page; it's a quibble on the mechansims of Google's index and has little to do with the strength of the site itself in terms of numbers or quality.

A

Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcatters?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 02 - 10:21 AM

Wolfgang, I'm not wrong, you are. I stand by what I said. Would someone like me to cut and paste 10 pages of google search results?

Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcatters?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 May 02 - 10:22 AM

Get sucked into this, and pretty soon there'll be the old "fish in a barrel" sneer. We all ought to know better, I suppose. The warning sign in when an argumentative quarrel begins to be worked up where there's no call on earth for anything like thta.

Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcatters?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 02 - 10:27 AM

DMcG, I agree with you that the real value of the site is for contemporary performers, which is why I'm suggesting that the DT is the most valuable part of the site. I look at it the forum as chit-chat that is only sometimes a relevant, additional feature of the Digital Tradition.

But everyone will have their own ways of viewing the usefulness of the site. One is not more right than another.

Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcatters?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 02 - 10:32 AM

Amos, I didn't do a search using "folk and blues" as my keywords. So you are right, your suggestion, along with Wolfgang's and MMario's, are totally specious. Thanks for pointing it out for everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcatters?
From: MMario
Date: 21 May 02 - 10:34 AM

Do you understand what "search within results" means?

Granted, it is an additional step, but certainly easier then paging through 15000 plus reponses to the search "American Folk Music". 10 pages of google results at their maximum number of hits per page would mean you have ignored 14000 of the results. How can you know that a direct link to either the Digital Tradition of the MudCat Cafe is not present within those 14000 hits? When you get a response with such large numbers of hits it is recommended practice to narrow the search.

Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcatters?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 02 - 10:40 AM

MMario, if you don't know you are looking for Mudcat, of what use is the idea that you can enter the keywords "Mudcat Cafe" when you don't even know it exists?

God, is this just too mentally challenging for you guys? My point is, not everyone on the internet with an interest in American folk music has ever heard of Mudcat. Doing a keyword search at google using the keywords "American folk music" isn't going to get you here. But it will get you to much better sites, like the American Folklife pages. Rounder Records. That sort of thing.

You can give it a rest any time now boys. You are just being contrary for the sake of being contrary. You just want to argue with me because of that blank from line.

Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcatters?
From: MMario
Date: 21 May 02 - 10:51 AM

No - actually I want to argue with you because your initial comments looked like you wanted an argument. Just trying to give you what you evidently want from the forum.

There are several combinations of "folk" and other keywords that bring the mudcat cafe up within the first page of google results. Almost ANY search on folksong titles or tunes will bring up a mudcat page - or a DT page. that "American Folk Music" does not (at the moment) (considering how many times it has appeared in this thread that will not remain true for long) is basically irrelevant. Many logical search patterns do not turn up web pages that exist with expected results.

Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcatters?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 02 - 11:09 AM

Bye bye.

Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcatters?
From: Bill D
Date: 21 May 02 - 02:44 PM

wanna see a trick? type link:http://www.mudcat.org/ into Google or Altavista....it gives you lists of places that refer to Mudcat,,,,fascinating to see where we are noted...

Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcatters?
From: Snuffy
Date: 21 May 02 - 07:31 PM

If you type "american folk lyrics" then mudcat comes up second (after Lesley's Contemplator site).

Difference between lyrics and music - there ain't any GIFs or PDFs of the dots on Mudcat - mostly just words.

WassaiL! V

Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcatters?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 21 May 02 - 07:52 PM

This time I will bite... Guest said "I did a Google search yesterday using the keywords "American folk music" and Mudcat never even turned up." and was challenged.

Assuming Guest just worked through all the pages that Google yeilded; looking for a direct link to Mudcat (and ignoring the "similar results excluded bit Google gives), the fact of the matter is that Guest spoke the truth - or at least I tried the same search with the same results as Guest.

There are of course other issues here, probably best highlighted by Amos...

...but, the question in my mind is why do so many people need to leap in and make a row and "justify" Mudcat?...

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcatters?
From: michaelr
Date: 21 May 02 - 08:23 PM

It certainly hasn't escaped my notice in the six months or so I've been hanging `round here that a number of members are hyper-sensitive to perceived provocations (whether or not the post in question is meant to provoke), and especially so in the case of anonymous Guests.

I have been severely rebuked on more than one occasion by members who, to me, appeared to be overreacting considerably. And I remember several innocuous questions by unnamed Guests that got them flamed by a Mudcat Mob. Hey, I can handle it, and smile, but someone else who is new to this forum may not want to come back after being jumped like that.

Having said that, our Guest above certainly seems to be in an argumentative mood...

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcatters?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 21 May 02 - 09:02 PM

Is there a way to unrefresh threads? !!!

Subject: American folk music
From: CarolC
Date: 21 May 02 - 11:24 PM

Test. This is only a test.

Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcatters?
From: CarolC
Date: 21 May 02 - 11:36 PM

This is interesting. My little test didn't produce any results. That's probably not surprising. But what's interesting is that if I do a search on just the words "folk music" (with quotes), I find the Mudcat on the third page of links. I don't know or really care about what that might or might not mean. But I think those kinds of surprises are an interesting aspect of doing google searches.

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22folk+music%22&hl=en&lr=&start=20&sa=N

Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcatters?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 May 02 - 03:16 AM

should this thread be renamed, 'silly squabbles'?