traditional singers: beards, & guinness?

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 03:54 PM

he's had a Brazilian or a Californian.......?

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Greg B
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 06:37 PM

Well, the beard is so that when someone says 'give the money
to the fellow with the round glasses and the beard' you'll have
yer chance.

Guinness...well it does feel good on the throat, now doesn't it?

As for closing the eyes, it's either that or sing the song to the
lovely young bright-eyed blonde girl in the front row, but she's
far too young and lovely for an old bugger like you and if you
keep looking at her you'll get so bloody depressed that you won't
be able to finish the song.

Now as to speaking the last line, you once heard Louie Killen do
that, and read somewhere that it was traditional among traditional
singers, so what the hell "the rose in June."

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 06:45 PM

It isn't traditional among traditional singers.
Some Irish ones used to do it but it's become an affectation nowadays
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Willie-O
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 06:59 PM

Why do accountants wear suits and drink whatever they drink?

I don't know, who cares?

My entire life people have been telling me I close my eyes when I sing. I don't, but I guess I squint somewhat. I want to see what's going on. (See: musicianship 101, "visual cues").

W-O

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 08:42 PM

Assuming that Jim was talking about speaking the last phrase or two -or the occasional entire verse- of a song, I'd have to disagree. It was quite common among traditional singers (in England at any rate, in the early part of the 20th century) but, when (if) their songs were published, there was usually no mention of that. If you have the opportunity of looking at the original collectors' notes you'll get a better picture.

I'm sure, though, that Jim is right in saying that it is often just an affectation nowadays; a thing that people do because they think they are supposed to (like always omitting final -g). The whole point is that a singer needs to absorb a song thoroughly, and live it. When it has become real to you, when you believe that what you are singing is really happening now, then you will know what to do with it; and your audience will take the point.

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: GUEST,Jerry O'Reilly
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 01:49 AM

Thought I'd contribute something to this one.
1. I do sing traditional songs and I close my eyes to better concentrate on the story and words. I've tried singing with my eyes open but find I tend to lose concentration and go astray in the "story".
2.I've had a beard for over 40years, wheather its to do with image or what I'm not sure. What I do know is that my future widow would evict me if I attempted to shave it off.
3. The issue of speaking the last line of the song is a thorny one. A lot of the source singers did speak the last line, the reason why I was never able to ascertain. On reflection I'd say it was personal preference or for impact as in the final line of The Titanic "when the sea gives up its dead"

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Old Grizzly
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 04:21 AM

Hi Jerry,

I am in the same boat here.

My wife has long blonde hair which she has always threatened to cut short should I ever dare to shave off my beard..... and she never makes empty threats!

Dave

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 05:17 AM

One of the greatest singers of traditional songs that I ever met was the late, great Bert Lloyd. Bert was clean shaven (although he did have luxurious eyebrows!). I seem to remember that he usually wore a suit and tie and looked a bit like a bank manager. I don't remember if he closed his eyes or not or what he drank - all I can really remember is the vivid pictures he painted through his singing - that's the important thing!

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: freda underhill
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 06:21 AM

good one, jennyo!

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 07:41 AM

Reted, I admire your style but I bet you don't get asked back very often :)

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Marje
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 12:56 PM

A quick follow-up about closing one's eyes: if you go to a storytelling session, you'd think it very odd if the storyteller closed their eyes throughout the story and said it helped them to concentrate, wouldn't you?

Marje

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 01:00 PM

Marje, are you a performer?

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Marje
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 04:14 PM

Yes, I sing, and sometimes I accompany myself. I prefer to sing unaccompanied in the right setting and I think I sing better that way.

Even if I was speaking just as a listener, I think my comments about eye-closing would be the same. I won't say I never do it, but I try not to, and am finding it a worthwhile exercise.

I don't have a beard either, but I'm working on it :o)

Marje

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 05:27 PM

Well, at least if the singer's eyes are closed it means they know the song and aren't reading the words....

If I'm performing at a paid booking I will generally sing with eyes open, but I don't consider that there is any obligation to do so in an informal singaround.

Les Barker used to be an accountant, but he doesn't wear a suit (or sing....)

Kitty

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 07:07 PM

It doesn't bother me what people do when they sing, so long as the song comes across well. I don't think my criteria for that would be unusual. They can drink & wear what they like as far as I'm concerned, stick their finger in their ear, whatever! If it works, fine. If they need to do it to make it work, who am I to criticise them? I'm sure I've got idiosyncracies but I'm happy to own them and (some) people seem happy enough to hear me sing or play to keep asking me to do so.

But there are people who seem to persist in closing their eyes when talking to you; perhaps that should read "talking at you". They may not mean to but the notion that they regard you as inferior (in my case I have much to be inferior about but I'm not going to advertise that to them) and not worth engaging with is difficult to avoid. Eye contact is differently interpreted and has different rules in many cultures but I suspect some of our understanding of such rules is informing the postings about behaviour when singing.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Marje
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 10:40 AM

Good point, Rowan, eye contact is partly a cultural thing.

About the finger-in-the-ear habit: I know one singer who cups her hand behind her ear and sticks her elbow out. This means that she hears her voice beautifully, but anyone sitting to one side may have the sound of her voice and the sight of her mouth masked by the protruding arm. It's hard not to conclude that she's singing more for herself than for the people she's performing to.

Marje

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Scrump
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 12:52 PM

When I were a lad, I were taught to look folk in the eye when they were talking to me or when I were talking to them. I was taught it was bad manners to do otherwise. So shutting my eyes seems ill mannered to me, and personally I avoid it. I've seen performers with their eyes shut do a good enough job, but as a member of the audience I would consider they appeared better performers if they had their eyes open, other things being equal.

If people need to shut their eyes to avoid being 'distracted' by the audience, then I find that strange. I admit I have been really distracted on occasion, but only by unusual events happening in the audience, but those occasions are very rare. A sea of faces just looking at me and listening to me I don't find distracting. Maybe people who have to shut their eyes shouldn't be performing in public if they feel that way?

My only problem is deciding who or what to look at - I tend to look around as I'm singing, but a lot of the time I kind of stare into the middle distance at no-one in particular, as some people probably don't like being stared at (unless they're people I happen to know). Maybe shutting your eyes avoids that problem too, but I don't think it's right.

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: GUEST,Henny Penny
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 12:50 PM

I have been singing trad songs with my husband for over twenty years - with the odd toilet break - and I find it easier to keep my eyes open but my husband John sings with his eyes closed tight.
He has sung the odd song with them open but he says that he can relax and concentrate on the feeling of the story within the ballad when his eyes are closed. I dont think it rude to sing with eyes closed and whether eyes are open or not does not reflect on how the song is sung and does not sound better if they are open.
WHAT A STUPID STATEMENT! Scrump you obviously havent been around very many singing sessions to make such a remark.
Thank God not everyone feels like you! So you think because you keep your eyes open and stare into space when you sing makes you a better singer than those who close their eyes when they sing?
Penny

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 02:00 PM

Of course you should sing with your eyes open.

In fact its in the sub text of many folk songs

Eye Germany
Eye once had a love
As Eye went out on a midsummer's morning
The trees they grow eye

Nothing about closed eyes, shut eyes, half shut eyes.....

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 02:59 PM

Been there, done that, (didn't drink Guiness) but wore Aran jumpers , closed the eyes,(I did'nt like to see people suffer!!) but then it WAS in the sixties.

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Tootler
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 06:16 PM

Sorry Henny Penny, I think you are wrong.

If it is a paid performance and the audience have paid money to hear and see you sing, then you should look at your audience and sing to them. Remember they have paid for you to entertain them. If you shut your eyes, it is tantamount to ignoring your audience and, IMO, bad manners.

In an informal singaround, maybe there is some leeway, though I still think it a little impolite.

Scrump has a valid point and calling him stupid does not make his point any less valid.

I have been a lecturer for most of my career before I retired last year and one point I used to make to students when coaching them in giving presentations was to look at the audience and speak to them. I think that is just as valid when you are singing.

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 06:26 PM

Tootler, and others, there is not a correct way. And folks that close their eyes, are not, IMO, being impolite. It is simply their style. Others prefer to look straight at the audience for everything. Some prefer to look above the audience. Some, like myself, will use them all during a performance. For me, it depends on the song and the effect I am looking for. I think what betrays you is your training. I would not close my eyes if I were lecturing. But if the lecture included a song, I might very well close my eyes to sink into the song. This is not an oral presentation, it is a dramatic performance. We are not delivering a speech, we are singing a song. I am sure there are many overlapping "rules", but I think you are off on this one. No offense intended, just my opinion, for whatever it is worth.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Tootler
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 07:15 PM

No offense taken. You are expressing an alternative point of view. I may not agree with it, but you expressed it in a reasonable way and that's fine.

What I did object to was someone who expressed a view similar to my own being called stupid (and shouted which made it worse) because that person in effect called me stupid as well and I resent that. She may not agree with the other person's point view but that is no excuse for calling them stupid.

That's why I came on a little stronger than I might otherwise have done.

That said, the few times I have performed for an audience I tried to look at the audience. Even when using dots (I am more likely to play than sing), I usually use them for confirmation and so glance at them from time to time rather than always read from them. I would not have dreamt of playing with my eyes closed.

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 04:24 AM

Sorry to revive this but I intended to respond to Malcolm Douglas regarding singers speaking the last line before I went away and didn't have time.
Of course he is right, I should have said during the thirty odd years I have been recording source singers it seems to have gone completely, none of the ones we recorded did it and the only time I have seen it is from younger singers in a concert situation; it seems to be a performance flourish rather than a response to the song.
I can't remember it occuring on any of the field recordings I have heard (did it happen on the BBC ones Malcolm - I don't recall it?) though I know it was once a common practice.
For me the comments traditional singers made on their songs, during or after were far more significant: Sam Larner's interjection of "you know what they are, don't you?" in Butter and Cheese and All, or Harry Cox's bitter comment "And that's what they thought of us" after singing Betsy The Serving Maid, or his diatribe about land seizure following Van Dieman's Land.
Then there's Dillard Chandler's description of what he'd have done to Lord Daniel if he had been Little Mattie Groves!
It seems to me we know very little about what traditional singers felt about their songs; god knows, there are little enough examples of them being asked. These comments seem to me to fill a gap in some small way,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 06:24 AM

Just an observation ... I sing with my eyes closed because it helps concentration, but will open them from time to time, especially on a chorus, but not particularly to 'perform', just because it feels comfortable. (Humourous songs can be different. Sometimes you need to fix on certain people at different points in the song to gain effect). I don't know if this improves my presentation or not, but being relaxed, which is helped by not stressing about unnatural eye behaviour, does enable me to sing better.
What I do know though is that when I am watching a singer I always feel more comfortable when they are comfortable, and I hate the demanding stares that some performers use to get your attention. It makes me squirm and I wouldn't like to think I have put other audience members in that position of discomfort. For me when I listen to a song, I want to be able to think about for myself. If the singer has their eyes closed then that is one less distraction to my concentration.

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 06:52 AM

Some singers close their eyes and some don't. I do a lot of the time when I sing and noone's complained to me.

Standing/sitting; eyes open/closed; beard/no beard; Guinness/no Guinness. These things don't matter to me when I'm listening to a song; I have more important things to spend my energy on!

If something's done as an affectation, it can be irritating; otherwise, does it really matter?

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Scrump
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 07:07 AM

I've only just seen the responses to my last comment on this thread (it must've disappeared off the bottom of the list before I saw it).

I was surprised that "Henny Penny" felt moved to call me "stupid", just because she disagreed with my views. I won't respond in kind as I hope my words and HP's will speak for themselves on that point. Thanks, Tootler for speaking up in my defence.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough. I didn't even say it's "rude" to sing with your eyes closed (that was your word, HP, not mine). I was trying (obviously not entirely successfully) to say that some people might perceive it as ill-mannered or that it simply detracts from the performance, other things being equal. In other words, making the effort to sing with your eyes open and (as others have put it) engage the audience, might pay off in making the performance even better from the audience's point of view.

And no, of course I don't think I sing better because I have my eyes open, than anybody who sings with their eyes closed. I never said that, HP, and I don't think you can have read what I said properly if you think I did say it. I'm the first to admit that there are many, many better singers than me, plenty of whom do sing with their eyes closed, but I think they could be still better performers - not better singers - if they opened their eyes.

HP, please do people the courtesy of reading their posts properly before jumping in with personal remarks - one of these days you're going to upset somebody if you continue like that. As for me - water off a duck's back.

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Hawker
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 07:25 AM

well,
I am overweight, have no beard and drink spirits & wine and the occasional cider. I wear what I like. I sing with my eyes closed to avoid distraction, as I am notoriously good at forgetting the words. I dont think I am a stereotypical folkie, and I know a lot of people who do look like you describe, it is probably because they are like minded people. To get accepted, it is better to learn some songs, and sing them well - and you will be asked to sing lots - whether you are wearing a wetsuit, naked or in full morris gear! It is to me a matter of ability that gets you accepted, not how you look. I wish you well, be yourself, and don't develop an over sized ego, that doesn't go down too well either!
Cheers, Lucy

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: GUEST,Henny Penny
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 11:06 AM

Scrump I am sorry if i missed the point you were making, though if it had been more clear and to the point then possibly . . . who knows?
I am not one to fall out over points such as . . it is more traditional to sing with one's eyes open or closed! I did not mean to come across as 'hard' as it seemed (when I reread my ha'penny's worth) I'm glad it was water off a duck's back! I didn't mean to offend.
The point I was trying to make was, when someone sings with their eyes closed it is because they feel 'more comfortable' in doing so and they do not think it rude, neither do they wish to be thought of as being rude.
The night I replied to your comment I attended a music session and noticed that three out of the seven people who sang, did so with eyes closed. I made a point of asking each one of them why they did so and did they think it rude. All replied that they felt more comfortable singing with closed eyes as they could concentrate on the song and the words without distraction. One said she would be nervouse if she saw people watching her (understanable) none said they did it to look 'more' traditional or to cause any effect to a performance.
One man who informed me he has contributed to Mudcat in the past, has performed on stage, television and festivals many times and always sings with his eyes closed for the same reasons and never thought it rude or impaired his performance in anyway!
To sum it up, I feel it is up to the individual singer to do what he or she feels makes them more comfortable and adds to the quality of their singing. I can't see how someone who usually sings with their eyes closed should sing with eyes open just because someone 'thinks it would make a better performance' It's the quality that counts NOT the performance! sorry Scrump I do not agree with you I do hope this does not offend you, this reply has been added AFTER I did some open research. Shagger (I wonder how you got that name) I hope this answers your query, maybe you should do some open research also!
Henny penny

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 07:02 PM

It's pleasant to see people reconciled.
Big Mick's comments started me thinking.
"I think what betrays you is your training. I would not close my eyes if I were lecturing. But if the lecture included a song, I might very well close my eyes to sink into the song. This is not an oral presentation, it is a dramatic performance. We are not delivering a speech, we are singing a song."

Training, or experience, or culture seem to be at the bottom of various contributors' responses. I've been teaching for almost as long as I've been singing; both started in very informal ways, among peers and without particular rules applied by greatly senior people. Teaching and singing were both done in a variety of contexts and for a variety of purposes and so used a variety of techniques. Lecturing is only one way of teaching and is really effective only in a very limited context, usually a very formal setting, although short bursts will be used in almost any type of teaching. Similarly, singing in a very 'in your face' manner has some valid but very limited purposes, while singing as though one were abstracted from the immediate audience also has its uses. A concert hall with 2000 in the audience is a very different context than the back bar of the Cudgewa. In any context, if the technique works for the audience (rather than just the singer) that may be all that matters.

In both singing and teaching I've found that I seem to be more effective if the event actively engages both the audience and me. Perhaps it is a lack of technique that requires me to keep my eyes open to achieve this but 'horses for courses'.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: GUEST,Jackie Boyce
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 08:15 AM

Iv'e been keeping an eye on this thread and tend to agree with Jerry O'Reilly.
I also have a beard, to be honest I first grew it as a fashion thing back in the early 70's and haven't the nerve to shave it off.
I also sing with my eyes closed. When I started to sing and compete in local fleadhs I was very nervous and forgot lines (what's changed?)
Len Graham was the adjudicator and he took me to one side and suggested I try singing with my eyes closed. This was to shut out anything that would break my concentration, I have been singing with my eyes closed ever since.
It has become a natural thing for me to do when I sing. It helps me to concentrate, get into the mood of the song and even after all my years singing I would still get a little nervouse at times.
There is no set way to sing, what ever makes the singer most comfortable, after all the song is the important thing not the way you deliver it.
I would sometimes speak the last line of a song, I don't know why, I probably heard it sung that way when I first heard it and liked the effect, ? who knows? either way what does it matter, you never can please everyone.