Where Have All The Americans gone?

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 09:56 PM

At 65 mph, it would take me 28 hours to reach my daughter's house. That is presuming no stops for gas or anything else. And she only lives slightly more than halfway across the country.

Mick

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Janie
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 11:14 PM

The currently running thread, thread.cfm?threadid=95306&messages=125, proposing a Western USAA Mudcat gathering perfectly illustrates the effects of big geography. One can live in "the West" in the USA and still be huge distances away from others who also live in 'the West.

Janie

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 11:32 PM

Gone to BS every one (almost)
When will they ever learn? (mea culpa too)


Actually I love it that there's so much about the UK folk scene (and the UK itself, and Ireland and Canada and Australia and Germany and....)   I can learn a lot that way.

From time to time there's a music thread to which I can contribute something that might be worthwhile-- above the line, it's mostly just lurking and learning.   Below the line there's a lot to be learned too--the recent thread on post-Holocaust Germany is a shining example.

I really enjoy reading tales of bygone years by Art Thieme and Jerry--and other performers and writers--but there's not much I can add---except to say "Great Stuff!"--which I do.

I don't really see grounds for concern.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 11:48 PM

My last solo gig , --Monday night.
I'm a Scot, and have been associated with folk clubs and the music heard there for FIFTY years.
A short resumeof Monday's repertoire---
The Mingulay Boat song.
Bogle's "No man's Land"
Cheatin' Heart-Jealous Heart-Candy Kisses medley [with vocals]
Banks of the Ohio
Come by the Hills
The Lass o' Fyvie
Only the Hangman
Red River Valley [request]
Dougald MacIntosh
The Parting Glass

    No rigid "tradition" there, I would suggest. Only much loved material gathered in my [admittedly cluttered ] mind over the aforementioned fifty years. Yes--I have over and over had to remind bigoted "traddies" that folk music and song is simply what folk sing.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 01:21 AM

Jerry, it's your fault---and I'm glad it is! Since you people sent me that software & stuff, I've been converting cassettes to CDs non-stop.

So there...

Also, I tend to add to a thread when I have personal experiences with the topic that might enlighten others. I suspect being called a folk nazi when I give my opinion has caused me to be here less. Right now I'm reading the Autobiography Of Lincoln Stephens which our local Peru, Illinois library discarded for .50 ! I found several first editions of famous authors too for the same price. Quite tragic.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 02:22 AM

I recently started a thread on American Blues artist Freddie King only for an American member to take the time and trouble to post and inform our forum only that - he had never heard of him.

Though quite why he would have thought posting that infrmation to be of interest to any other poster is not clear.

But perhaps it is less a matter of nationalites but is a selfish attitude that has developed on our forum. Posts would possibly be better received when they are showing our forum something of potential general interest - rather than when we are expecting only to see something of particular interest to us?

There are after all - PMs supplied for that.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 04:09 AM

At 65 mph, it would take me 28 hours to reach my daughter's house. That is presuming no stops for gas or anything else. And she only lives slightly more than halfway across the country.

Best to take a break, Mick. "Tiredness can kill" as the motorway signs say over here in the UK.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 04:12 AM

I am an old Mudcatter who comes back from time to time so I am intrested in this thread and join in as a guest I for one dropped out of discussions when they became vehicles for people to push them selfs,their bands or their clubs this site used to be about discussing and loving music.
In the middle of a thread somebody posts and we then have someone replying with how are you,saw you last saturday you have suddenly gained lost weight got ugly etc.
Some people have decided that they know everything and even when told by more than one person the truth still push their believe down everyones throat because they know better. A long time ago discussion took place about splitting mudcat into two american and uk we made the descision then not to and we where the better for it until recently. You talk of missing americans there are other people from other countries missing also.
Before your fingers start hitting buttons let your brains think (if you have any) and discuss not ram your views down my throat and maybe people will start coming back

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 07:13 AM

Scrump, the example was simply to demonstrate how big this country is for people who don't have a frame of reference.

Mick

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 07:43 AM

Point taken. But great music - the best music ? - has come out of times and places where the furthest you could get in 28 hours would be the distance you could walk in that time.

The green slogan "think globally, act locally" can apply to music as well.

But the very scale and spread out nature of America is one reason for using the Mudcat as a way of bridging those distances and building community across them. In some places that can be supplemented by people actually being able to meet each other directly, but that's just a bonus. And if anything it makes the Mudcat less important for them - more convenient maybe, as a way of sharing information and so forth, but convenient isn't the same as important.

Good to see some people here whom I hadn't seen posting form some time.

And I quite agree with Azizi about the importance of the Mudcat as a -lace to find out about cultures and folklore, our own and other peoples. For me what is special about the range of music and song that get labelled "folk" is that they all have their roots in that kind of thing, it isn't just about instant entertainment and what's in and what's out.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 07:57 AM

As a Canadian who comes here often I see no cause for concern. I very much enjoy the UK and American and Canadian and Australian, etc etc, etc, aspects of this forum. However, I must say that the issue of "Where Are the Americans" concerns me a bit as it seems to imply an intolerance for those who are not American , or at the very least a resentment regarding the amount of UK info. I find that a bit sad and wish that people would start new posts on music from everywhere. This is a great forum but the only way it can express a broad view is for people from everywhere to participate, rather than grumble.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 08:37 AM

"Where Are the Americans"... seems to imply an intolerance for those who are not American

Not from Jerry it doesn't. It was a very reasonable question that had crossed my mind here in England. Not a matter of two much from this part of the world but rather of wanting a bit more from elsewhere.

As that nameless one just now said - and I take it the namelessness in this case was just an oversight with a missing cookie rather than a rude gesture at members - I "wish that people would start new posts on music from everywhere".

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 09:28 AM

"I must say that the issue of "Where Are the Americans" concerns me a bit as it seems to imply an intolerance for those who are not American"

I must say that a statement like that reveals a bit of a bias by making an interpretation of this thread with a preconceived notion.   As McGrath pointed out, that is not the kind of person Jerry is.

What most of us are concerned about is what seems to be a lack of interest in folk music among Americans. As I previously stated, there are signs that worry me these days, and a lack of participation even on Mudcat makes us think.

I love reading about what is happening in the UK.   I think it is great that events are publicized on these boards. It may not appeal to everyone, but I think Mudcat works best when it is supplying information.   Just because I cannot attend a session at pub somewhere in England does not mean that I'm not interested. We are learning things from each other.   There is another wonderful thread about house concerts currently running. I understand that the concept is really unique to the U.S. (and I believe Canada), but I think it shows how new stages are being created to keep the music alive.   With a bit of creativity, we just might get more interest in this music. The more people that become interested, the benefits will grow. Funding for perserving archives will increase, opportunities to share the music will grow, and the sense of community will expand.

Let's all keep posting.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: GUEST,Bee
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 10:26 AM

Is a house concert what we in Canada would call a kitchen party or ceilidh? Which is to say, bunch of musicians and friends and stray buddies gather in someone's home to party and make music all night? Or are house concerts more formal?

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 10:30 AM

Point taken, but didn't you see the ";-)"?

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 10:36 AM

House concerts are more formal.   Basically it is a concert - given in someones home. Usually there is no amplification and the performer will play for an audience of 20 to 30 people. An admission is charged and the performer usually keeps all of it, minus expenses. Sometimes there is a pot luck associted with the event, or simple drinks and snacks (no alchol usually).

House concerts are growing in popularity here. The low key and intimate setting makes them fun to attend and a great experience for the performer.   It also helps to fill in gaps in schedules as well as opening up new opportunities to perform.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 10:36 AM

No the namelessness was NOT an oversight, nor was it rude. I was simply making an observation, you disagree with me and that is fine, but please..not so rude.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 10:41 AM

I rather take it that the "house concert" idea is a small concert in a private house with admission by invitation.   

It'd probably be illegal in freedom-loving England now, under the new Licensing regulations, unless a licence had been obtained in advance. Definitely would, if any kind of payment for attending was involved.

That doesn't mean they won't develop here. A bit of illegality never stops people enjoying themselves when they've a mind to. Musical shebeens...

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 10:47 AM

It is more of an open invitation, just like any other concert. Publicity is handled by a flyer, a website, mailing lists, etc.   Yes, people are opening up their home to strangers. There have been some states that have questioned the legality of it, but for the most part the events go on without incident.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: GUEST,wherriebob
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 10:49 AM

Well lots of them are over here in Scotland. This year alone Inverclyde Folk Club has had the great pleasure to have as guest perfomers, The Master Musicians From The Crooked Road, 12 of the best including the wonderful Laura Boosinger, Ginny Hawker & Tracy Schwartz and the cracking bluegrass outfit, No Speed Limit; The Crooked Jades from San Francisco were wonderful and last Friday, The Foghorn Stringband blew the audience away. Mark Erelli from Boston and Darden Smith were guests last year. Some comments that the Club is becoming too focussed on 'Americana' Sound familiar?

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 10:50 AM

Speaking of Kitchen parties etc, where I come from, Nova Scotia, they we often called times; as in Jack is having a wee"time" at his place. Has anyone else heard them called that ? And if so, where are you or where have you heard it ?

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 11:01 AM

"Where have all the Americans gone?"

Long time passing.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 12:17 PM

Very good Dave - Gone to Eye-rak every one....

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 12:39 PM

The house concerts I've been to, we passed a hat for the musician(s) and brought pot luck to eat. Beer was available, but you were limited to only one or two. Advertising was word of mouth, mostly.

Getting together in the kitchen, on the lawn, on the back porch or anywhere else was called "getting together in/on the __________." Beer, coffee, tea, whatever was available to eat, good talk, singing, playing with the kids, tellin' lies, etc. were the primary recreations. Advertising was limited to "Hey, come on over" or a knock on the door and maybe somebody would go out for a jug of beer.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 12:58 PM

House sessions have also become increasingly popular in Ireland thanks to a combination of the legislation on smoking and drinking/driving + plus the ridiculous difference between supermarket and pub prices for alcohol. Those who want to smoke can do so in the garden. Those who want to drink can crash somewhere before driving home the next day.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 01:11 PM

Here is an interesting site that explains a lot - houseconcerts.org

and here is one more - houseconcerts.com

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 02:33 PM

We Americans are still here, but we're totally stressed out. Forget about getting ahead in life. We're working harder and longer just to keep from slipping. Decent housing, health care, and education are no longer affordable, except by the very rich. Our good paying jobs have gone overseas. Our pensions have evaporated. Our basic public insitutions have become decrepit because our tax money is being pissed away on military adventures that benefit no one but a handful of corporate insiders. Our political, business, cultural, and spiritual leaders are worse than morally bankrupt. They are venal, self-serving panderers and hypocrites whose only creed is "Gimme, gimme, gimme!" Amid all this, is it any surprise we Americans have less and less time to spend on chat rooms, bulletin boards, and discussion groups, and possibly less time to spend on music itself?

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 02:43 PM

Janice - remember the words of Emma Goldman:

"I did not believe that a Cause which stood for a beautiful ideal, for anarchism, for release and freedom from convention and prejudice, should demand the denial of life and joy. I insisted that our Cause could not expect me to become a nun and that the movement would not be turned into a cloister. If it meant that, I did not want it. "I want freedom, the right to self-expression, everybody's right to beautiful, radiant things." "

While we face stress and change, we need to keep life in perspective.

Subject: Lyr Add: BREAD AND ROSES (James Oppenheim)
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 03:13 PM

BREAD AND ROSES
Words by James Oppenheim, music by Caroline Kohlsaat

As we come marching, marching, in the beauty of the day,
A million darkened kitchens, a thousand mill-lofts gray
Are touched with all the radiance that a sudden sun discloses,
For the people hear us singing, "Bread and roses, bread and roses."

As we come marching, marching, we battle, too, for men—
For they are women's children, and we mother them again.
Our lives shall not be sweated from birth until life closes—
Hearts starve as well as bodies; give us bread but give us roses!

As we come marching, marching, unnumbered women dead
Go crying through our singing their ancient song of bread.
Small art and love and beauty their drudging spirits knew—
Yes, it is bread we fight for, but we fight for roses too!

As we come marching, marching, we bring the greater days—
The rising of the woman means the rising of the race—
No more the drudge and idler—ten that toil where one reposes—
But a sharing of life's glories: bread and roses, bread and roses!

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 03:14 PM

Most of the best songs come from the worst times. Or at least from times which seemed pretty bad at the time. (That goes for both individuals and societies I think.)

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 03:17 PM

May I (as one who has been known to express a preference for my own tradition rather than the American tradition or the contemporary American cultural experience) say how much I liked the few posts before McGrath's?

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 03:49 PM

And what was wrong with McGrath's post, exactly? >:-(

:-)

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 03:52 PM

And with fear and trembling he asked, "And WHAT exactly IS your tradition?"

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 04:31 PM

Not to worry, you TOmmies -- we'll be around if you need us. A bit late.


A

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 04:55 PM

I'm here in the US ...AND.. in Los Angeles no less. However, the nearest mudcatter to me would be Amos and that's about a 2 to 3 hours drive depending upon traffic.

e that as it may - any mudcatter passing through please PM me. Also, any mudcatter who knows of any musicians in my area that need a harmony singer, please PM me. A joint condition limits my ability to play any instruments well these days but my voice is decent when i get warmed up. It's not what it used to be, but whose voice is?

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 04:59 PM

My tradition is English - you remember, George the Third, Tea Party, and all that (even if he was really German).

And, Dave's wife, a good harmony singer is a very useful person. In harmony it's the notes and the train of them that counts. I can hit simple harmonies off the bat as it were, but my late wife used to be able to find the funny ones in between that made melody too.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 05:45 PM

English. A combination then of British, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, German, Norman, Provencal, French, Manx, Cornish, Breton, Viking, Saxon, Angle, Dutch, and Norse overlaid with Indian, Zulu, Arab, Maori, Inuit, Yupik and a few other nations and races....

Pretty close to being as bad as us folks in the US of A or Canada.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 05:49 PM

well, I have been reading this and musing on it....and I find I'm mot so worried about relative numbers of any particular areas....the truth is, folkish music is not a major force in most of the areas we have heard from.
    I think we need the cross-fertilization that sites like Mudcat can help provide. We on the East Coast of the US have met a LOT of people, especially from the UK, but also from Canada and some other amazing places! in recent years due to the FSGW Getaway, and I know that some of us have gone to the UK...partially because of invitations and friendships started at Mudcat!
Lots of points have been made about the distances, the types of 'folk clubs', the variable sense of 'identity' in various countries and the 'history' factor of the music. I find that I have learned much from reading about music from those who have had certain aspects of for several hundred years...and I know that stuff that grew largely in the US has made its way abroad.

....so, even though it may well be that more Brits have joined and a few Americans have dropped out, it's not exactly a process we can control easily....(as Yogi Berra said, "If folks are gonna stay away in droves, you can't make 'em!")...but I think the WHOLE is better than it would be without Mudcat, the DT database, and the technology to interact quickly and cheaply with like minded people from all over the world.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 05:53 PM

Oh no! Not "overlaid" (or even "overlain") - in most cases the English were on top old man!

And the last time the English were invaded by a foreign power (apart from the Dutch getting close to ashore in Gravesend and Chatham) was 1066 and most of English folk music is a lot newer than that so it can justifiably be called the English tradition.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Gurney
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 05:57 PM

Things change, don't they. When I first found Mudcat, I thought it would be all blues, but it wasn't, and then some of it was a bit incomprehensible because I didn't know the artists, and some was incomprehensible because the thread was headed "Punch the Horse.....", but what I've really come to value is the cosmopolitan nature of the place. If I need technical help, it often comes from Kansas (thanks, John), if I need words, from Japan (how is that for incongruity! And scholarship) And fellowship from anywhere in the world.

It would be easier for Americans than Britons to become parochial, because of the difference in journey times. When I lived in the English midlands, there was seldom a evening without a folk-club available, and at weekends, perhaps 7 or 8 within 30 miles/1 hour's driving. But that was in the 60/70's.

There are Americans who include English Trad in their repertoire, and a very good fist they make of it too, with an unusual take on language. "He stood on the corner with a fag in his mouth,,,,"

Just random thoughts.   Chris.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 06:07 PM

So there weren't any Yanks in England in 1943? and the Irish stayed in Dublin in the 1840s? and none of those Spaniards made it ashore in 1588? and there were no Germans on the Channel Islands in the 1940s? And there are no curry shops in Lunnun now?

There are many kinds of invasions....

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 06:22 PM

Channel Islands not "England".

Americans 1943 - part of my history, not part of my tradition.

Irish, 1840s, servants, not masters.

Spaniards 1588, prisoners.

Bhangra, part of my tradition?

You asked what was my tradition.

"A fag in his mouth" - traditional? Etymology of "fag" in this context?!

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Gurney
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 11:02 PM

Geordie Song, 'Still I Love Him' I think it's called.

'Fag' is/was colloquial for cigarette, along with 'Gasper'.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: GUEST,Bee
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 11:34 PM

Perhaps the proper course of action is to declare Mudcat to be a Soveriegn Nation, inhabited by diverse and wondrous Folklanders. Everyone a Singing Citizen, immigrants of all description welcome, so long as they know all the lyrics to at least one mutually agreed upon traditional folk song. ;-D

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 11:50 PM

Do we gotta be able to sing 'em? 'Cause that would leave out them that can't speak.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: GUEST,Bee
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 12:01 AM

I suppose just know the lyrics - otherwise we'll start seeing rules about having to be able to play melodeons or bouzoukis en' such.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 02:10 AM

When I think of how many 'catters' I've met, I'm bowed over. And I'm a bit shy (go ahead laugh), though I do compensate well, especially when I start to feel comfortable & I do try hard, I'm not a big talker either. A big part would be because of the FSGW Getaways that I've attended, along with many other reasons. I met Pam Swan her 1st & only year there at the Getaway & when invited to perform at the San Francisco Maritime Music Festival by mudcatter Chanteyranger, I stayed at her & her husband's place & met more catters a few I had known from before there was a Mudcat & some whom I never knew. Did workshops with unknown catters Alaska Mike & Roger In Baltimore & Big Mick (after I knew him) & Liam's Brother (who I already knew) got to meet, even got to perform on stage with treaties & get my ass pinched by her while singing (can't beat that), had the Johnson Girls sing by my death bed (can't beat that one either), met a slew of Brits, some Canadians & an Icelander, some Irish, even got to leave a phone song message with Bob Bolton, an Aussie & PM back & forth with him. I've met some catters at my local session in Portsmouth, NH at the Press Room sessions & some at our other catters at the (RIP) Boston Traditional Singer's Club, from Texas to the UK & Ireland & some at other festivals & after all this I have got to say, TRUTHFULLY say, I have never met a "mudcatter in person that I didn't truly like", really, never. Why wouldn't I be interested in the music they like & play & sing & the type of music of where they come from? Yes, America is huge & Australia's far away, the UK"s closer but smaller & I'll probably never get to New Zealand or Guam but reading here about all your music on mudcat makes me want to visit all these places & hear all the music from all the places where we all come from & I can't (hopefully I can at least visit a few of the places before I go), so hearing about your music is the next best thing if I can't go hear what you do & like in the places where you come from. This has grown into an international collection of like mined folk music lovers & I believe we are all the better for it, at least I know I am. So what if it's lop-sided or flop-eared from time to time it has always paned out at least since I've been here & that's been since very early 97. Some of us here have died here having & leaving friends we'd sometimes would've never met & some we never did meet & some of us (myself included) have been cheered on past death & have met with those that have helped to cheer us on & have been happy to see us breathing when we do meet. When it's all said & done with, you just gotta love this place, like a family.

Blessed Barry

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 06:12 AM

Well Jerry -
It seems you Colonials ;@) are still here, you just don't start as many threads as them bods from 'Ull do.
Quack!
Geoff.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 07:46 AM

Where have all the Americans gone ? Over the last couple of months it seems they have all been touring over this side of the pond - And they still are !!

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 07:47 AM

! 100 !! And long may they continue coming over