Kate Rusby - 'My Music'

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 06:12 PM

no one has proven he did not collect the recruited collier,until it is proven ,then it is better not to attack him.

Lloyd wrote: "A set of this 18th century song was printed in Anderson's _Ballads in the Cumberland Dialect_ (1808)."

But Robert Anderson's Ballads (etc) isn't a collection of traditional songs - they're all Anderson's own work (and there aren't any other versions of "this 18th century song"). That's misrepresentation in itself.

Again, this has nothing to do with the quality of the song - I think Lloyd did us all a service by bringing the song back to life. But it's a shame he couldn't do it without falsifying the history.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 06:37 PM

Maybe he was sniggering, as he falsified.. ;0)

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 07:15 PM

Lizzie - you are out of your depth. Stop digging.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 04:54 AM

I'm not digging, merely I'm bringing some light-heartedness to a now er....somewhat tedious thread...

Come on, guys, lighten up a little, eh?

Who cares what A. L. Lloyd did or didn't do....I mean, come ON, at the end of the day the songs are here, whether he tampered with them or not..and they're loved by many...

Oh lordy...facts, *always* facts!

Bring back the beauty!

And talking of beauty........

Kate singing 'Bring Me A Boat'

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 05:37 AM

Who cares what A. L. Lloyd did or didn't do

Some people do care, some don't. If you're one of the ones who don't care, you're probably in the wrong discussion.

facts, *always* facts!

You know, it's possible to enjoy - and love - the music, and to care about getting the facts right.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 05:41 AM

Yes, but it can go too far....

When you get to the point where the squabbles over who said what, when, where and why, drown out the beauty, then it's time to sit down and LISTEN TO THE MUSIC!

This isn't a discussion about A. L. Lloyd, it's about Kate Rusby's music!

I know...I started it, Pip.

Yes, all discussions go off at tangents, but heck, if I do that, then I get the book thrown at me...yet The Professors seem to think that they can take over any discussion with their facts....

Gee whizz, it's sure tough being a Peasant! ;0)

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 09:42 AM

Lizzie.
Facts are facts. And facts are important.
If you don't get that. You don't get anything.
Without the truth, the world is lost...
Iraq? Afghanistan? Pakistan? The Government?
Who do you believe?
Look around you woman, and see the real injustices in this world. Show Of Hands not winning Celebrity Big Brother Get Me Out Of Folk On Two because Britains Talent Grand Euro Lotto Draw didn't vote for them? It's so unfair isn't it?

Doesn't amount to a hill of beans...
The past and our history is important, and my hat is doffed to the wonderful people who embrace it.
So Lizzie, back to your sycophantic doghouse.
(Don't think that Phil Beer will be visiting soon)

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 09:54 AM

I think you can let that one pass, Lizzie. Can't you??

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 10:11 AM

the business of the missing radio ballads has been dealt with on this forum before,I was kindly sent a cd.
some of you were not so busy scoring points you may have noticed.      GuestRalphie ,if you have nothing pleasant to say,it would be better to say nothing.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 10:19 AM

Telling madlizziecornish that facts are meaningful and important and that ordering of priorities matters may well be a complete waste of time and breath.
Needs to be done though.
Again and again and again.
Omigod, Tennyson and his brook . . .
She does, doesn't she?
Go on, I mean, for ever and ever and ever . . .
Hey Ruth, that slurry drainage system that's getting built down Ambridge way, can you bring it on here?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 10:21 AM

"some of you were not so busy scoring points you may have noticed."

I must have missed that thread. Any chance of burning me a copy, Dick?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 10:22 AM

missing radio ballads . . . I was kindly sent a cd

Well, do tell where you got it from, Dick, or provide a link.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 10:40 AM

guest Ralphie[and other gradgrinds],the facts are these Bert Lloyds claims have not been disproven,two scholars have questioned them,BertLloyd has taken the answer to the grave.
if Bert is looking on,I am sure he would be chuckling,Iam also sure he would endorse these sentiments I am off to practise.
when I have more time ,Iwill be back to talk about the missing ballads

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: r.padgett
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 10:53 AM

Is this about Kate Rusby please?

Ray

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 11:02 AM

Kate at Cambridge 2007 being interviewed about 'Awkward Annie' and singing 'The Blooming Heather'


Kate talking, exuberantly, about her love of traditional music, and how she was told the stories at bedtime...how they were like mini films to her...

Kate has 'magic' :0)

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 01:08 PM

"Telling madlizziecornish that facts are meaningful and important and that ordering of priorities matters may well be a complete waste of time and breath.
Needs to be done though.
Again and again and again.
Omigod, Tennyson and his brook . . .
She does, doesn't she?
Go on, I mean, for ever and ever and ever . . .
Hey Ruth, that slurry drainage system that's getting built down Ambridge way, can you bring it on here?"

.......waste of print!

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 01:36 PM

Bert Lloyds claims have not been disproven

Bert Lloyd claimed that when Robert Anderson wrote Jenny's Complaint, he was writing down a "set" (i.e. one version) of an 18th-century song. This is not true and never has been.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 03:21 PM

Who cares?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 03:39 PM

"Iwill be back to talk about the missing ballads"
this will be the only authorised version, of course...

Personally I'll go to the source, The Charles Parker Archive for my information

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 03:58 PM

Who cares?

Some people do, some don't. For those who do, them's the facts. For those who don't, why don't you find a topic that you do care about?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: r.padgett
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 05:32 PM

Some lovely nostalgic singing here from Kate on Wild Mountain Thyme

Yea Whitby ff last nights with Wild Mountain Thyme and Holmfirth Anthem and who remembers Les Barker with Ear we Go and the toilet rolls?

Ray

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 05:51 PM

Rifleman.
you can go where you like.
Authorised versions of what?
ah, I am talking to Mike H.
now I understand.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 05:57 PM

the facts are that no one has proved BertLloyd did not collect The Recruited Collier ,can you prove it.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 07:18 PM

How could anyone prove it?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 07:19 PM

That's a serious question, by the way - if you're saying that we shouldn't say that Bert Lloyd faked the attribution of that song because it's not been proved, fair enough, but the question then is what would amount to proof.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 07:52 PM

In a case like this, all you have to go on is the weight of evidence. At the moment, the weight of evidence certainly is very supportinve to the theory that he wrote some of the songs and made up attributions for others.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 03:45 AM

what would amount to proof.

Bert to come back from the dead and announce he did it for some people.

And let me add I am a great admirer of Bert. Like many others who have done things to songs, he did it with great skill.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 07:38 AM

I agree with Lizzie--that (2004?) Sidmouth concert was simply sublime. And on top of that, Kate has a great dry sense of humor.

It was a privilege to be there for that.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 07:41 AM

Yes, Ron...that is part of Kate's charm, her wonderful humour. I'm glad that concert brings back happy memories for you too...It was so moving.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 07:46 AM

That kRusby concert @ Sidders was OK (the 10 minutes or so of it I watched). This has, however, no bearing whatsoever on the telly docco transmitted last year on C5. You might as well start talking about the Clash in Victoria Park in 1979, since it was a whole lot better than:

(a) being in the Arena or
(b) watching the telly.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 08:21 AM

just because two scholars HAVE cast doubts,That does not constitute proof,it will never be proven.
so Instead of wasting time,wringing your hands at the[alleged] dastardly doings of Bert Lloyd,you should let the matter got to rest.
to cast doubts on the penguin book of English folk songs is equally stupid,the book was edited by two people Vaughan Williams and Lloyd,the songs should be judged on their merit,which should be the criteria for judging every song, I do not choose to sing songs because they are English[thats BNP territory]neither do I choose them because they are not contemporary or because they are traditional.there are a few Traditional songs I detest [eg LordRandall]

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 08:34 AM

That does not constitute proof,it will never be proven.

So asking for proof is just a way of shutting down the discussion.

so Instead of wasting time,wringing your hands at the[alleged] dastardly doings of Bert Lloyd,you should let the matter got to rest.

Believe it or not, Dick, some of us find this stuff interesting.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 08:39 AM

if Bert did what has been alleged ,it shows that he thought the most important criteria is that the songs are sung.
while scholarship is necessary,it is secondary to singing the songs,if nobody sang the songs, the songs would be archaic mementos in a museum .

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 08:43 AM

Dick, it really, really isn't about judging the songs themselves. As it happens, I think Bert Lloyd wrote some lovely songs, even the ones he claimed were traditional. If they're good songs (and they are), by all means sing them.

All this really relates to is trying to properly attribute the songs as either Trad or not. I'm afraid that what I've read and heard through several respected sources, not just the two scholars cited in the article above, is pretty convincing evidence.

It's not an attack on Bert Lloyd, nor is it meant to disrespect his great contribution to the folk revival, it's simply an appropriate re-assessment of SOME of his work, based on what we now know.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 10:34 AM

Sorry,It is no more than jumping to conclusions,nothing has been proved,just because a song was only collected once,proves nothing,neither does the fact a similiar inferior song existed,it is a possibilty that Lloyds singer rewrote the song ,it is also possible that the two songs existed.
yes ,doubt has been cast ,but nothing is proven.inmy opinion Scholars should find better things to do with their time such as:
now lets look at the song of The Dawning Of The Day,and Raglan Road [Patrick Kavanagh]is there any proof that Kavanagh nicked or was inspired by the existing song?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 11:12 AM

nothing has been proved

But by your own admission, nothing can be proved! So we go on the weight of the evidence - what seems more likely?

Several songs collected by Bert Lloyd seem to follow this pattern:

- Scruffy, reasonably good song appears in sources dated 18-something
- Lloyd produces a really good song which no one has seen before, but which is recognisably related to the earlier song
- Lloyd claims that his song had actually been around for ages, and the earlier song was really a variant of it

What seems more likely? (And again, this has nothing to do with whether they're good songs or not.)

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 01:29 PM

Pip,it is more important that the songs are sung.,not gathering dust in a museum.would they have been sung,I doubt it.
if Scholars have nothing better to do,than waste their time on this,it is a sad day,I just hope that taxpayers money wasnt used to fund this kind of scholarship.
I suppose someone will be wasting their time next on establishing whether Fakenham Fair is a fake

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 02:05 PM

it is more important that the songs are sung.,not gathering dust in a museum.would they have been sung,I doubt it.

I agree, and I think we all owe Bert Lloyd a huge debt for the work he did - both as a scholar and as a writer. He wrote (or rewrote) some great songs.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: GUEST,richd
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 02:12 PM

So, is AL lloyd a 'snigger-snogwriter' then?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 02:13 PM

if Scholars have nothing better to do,than waste their time on this,it is a sad day,I just hope that taxpayers money wasnt used to fund this kind of scholarship.

There is a pretty obvious positive reason for wanting to investigate this - if Lloyd was telling the truth about where he got those disputed songs, there were a whole lot of songwriters out there we know nothing about and who did some really good stuff. So you'd want to track them down and find out what else they created, surely?

That simply MUST have been the primary motivation for people getting into this. And understandably people who went off searching with their hopes raised by Lloyd's work would be a bit pissed off at being sent on a wild goose chase and would want to make sure nobody else made the same mistake.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 02:36 PM

Jack Campin,Thats the case with all traditional music,they were all written by someone,trouble is they are all dead,including Lloyd,so perhaps we can let him rest in peace with all the other composers of traditional songs,and just sing the songs,or in your case play them on your scottish pipes.
alternatively have a seance

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 02:56 PM

"So, is A.L. Lloyd a 'snigger-snogwriter' then?
yup! *LOL*

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 03:55 PM

"Rest in peace" is pretty unhelpful for somebody who is on the sort of search I was describing - if you've heard of some fantastic miner-songwriter from Durham, you're going to want to find as much of his work as possible so you can get new songs to sing, and find out what you can about him as a person. You are then going to feel cheated if he turns out to have been imaginary.

There is one good honest reason why Lloyd might have invented imaginary sources. A mineworker who'd written something like "The Blackleg Miner" would probably be less interested in getting credited by name for it among miners the length of Britain than in making damn sure his own mine manager never found out he was responsible for it. I've no idea if protecting sources was ever Lloyd's motivation, but I'm sure the idea has crossed the minds of people trying to find out more.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 04:19 PM

Hey, I have a BRILLIANT idea!

We could start a thread on A. L. Lloyd...then....we could all talk about Kate Rusby! :0)

Good idea, huh?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 04:23 PM

Did somebody just fart?

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 05:00 PM

If you can get your hands on them, read the sleeve notes of the countless albums that Bert Lloyd recorded. Then count the number of times that he states that he "devised" a particular song or set a certain tune to an existing set of words. The fact that over the years people who have never heard of A.L.Lloyd are singing these songs does him credit.

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 05:14 PM

Snigger snogwriter?

Ah yes, I heard him sing, and he did indeed snigger. What was that story he used to tell about "the sleeve job"?

Oh, and as for snogwriter - you should have heard my late wife who knew him in the 60s on the topic of his greatest interest about her (an unfulfilled one, I think).

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 05:23 PM

Bert? An interest in young women? Surely not!!!

Simply avuncular.............

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 05:47 PM

"Hey, I have a BRILLIANT idea!

We could start a thread on A. L. Lloyd...then....we could all talk about Kate Rusby! :0)

Good idea, huh? "

Jeez Lizzie, you are so driven and able to err, get people to do exactly what you want...
If only we could get you on board with the whole traditional music is interesting and worthy of support thing, you'd move fecking mountains!

Unfortunately the people you do support have already got multiple oodles of support... Your efforts are wasted and unappreciated. Just come over to the fusty side! Pop on your brown sandles and belong.. you so know you want to...!

Subject: RE: Kate Rusby - 'My Music'
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 07:06 PM

CS, I owe you a pint for your last post!