BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 12:37 PM

"Why not treat other posters - those with different perspectives than you with respect Liz"

Firstly, do NOT call me Liz. Only Bruce has my blessing to do that. Anyone else who does that after I've asked them not to I consider to be smellier than a pile of dog poo...

Secondly, Physician Ed, Heal Thyself.


Bruce, trust me on this one...if you know the right way to use Facebook for the Good, you can get many things rolling. If you connect with like-minded people/groups/movements, then you have a VAST conversation going on. There are many specific group pages now in FB where people invite others they know will be prepared to help and spread the word about certain things. From these pages MUCH is passed around the world.

Sadly, a great many people only use it to discuss what they had for tea last night, and that's fine, I guess, for each to his own, etc...but there's a great deal of wonderful things going on in there now..

As to the jibes, well, I'm being far better than I used to be about biting back, but sometimes, they just need a really good verbal kick up the backside.. ;0) The thing that REALLY gets to me though, is that if *I* were behaving in such a manner in one of *their* threads, they'd be shouting to the rafters about it, messaging all the mods etc...Never could stand Hypocrites and these fellas I put into that category....

They're like Squawking Parrots...and of course, now they'll all be Sqauwking shortly "Liz, Liz...!" just like the jumped-up piles of steaming dog poo which they conjour up in my picture-filled mind.....

Sorry to be unladylike, but I don't give this out in the first instance, I merely respond to some of it. Ed came into this thread purely to have a go at me, as have others, who have NO interest IN this thread at all....Then....*I* end up being called a 'troll' by one of Mudcat's Mods. Cool, huh?

Liz :0) x

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 12:40 PM

See? Oh my, one of them timed his post PERFECTLY to coincide with what I've just written.. Well done, Squawker!

And now, BACK to Idle No More, Chief Spence and Stephen Harper....

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 12:43 PM

Dave, I'd be willing to be the only reason you're posting in this thread is because Lizzie started it.

Has someone already mention Harper has agreed to meet with Chiefs on Friday, and Chief Spence is staying on her hunger strike because... well, it might happen, and it might not.

This has actually been reported on in the US. Marginally.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 12:54 PM

Liz kinda-cornish,

Open,and all sided discussion on all perspectives on a thread topic s is allowed on all BS threads (if you can understand what all sides means), as it leads to fruitful discussions and the airing of a variety of opinions/experiences.

Regardless who opens the threads, the topics do not belong to you (ebven though you post as if you have some type of BS possession). This differs a lot from your facebook account where you can stop discussions that do not agree with your one perspective.

Have you ever noticed that most of your personal insults involve backsides, (and sometimes objects). While this mayb be a fixation of yours, I suggest you should broaden your horizons, and respect that otherts are not as fixated as you are.

RESPECT, Liz

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 01:57 PM

Liz, thank you, but listen up gal. These people agree with where you're coming from. That is, they basically agree with you. Although they may not have your fervency about the issue, let's look at facts.

Greg is a good man. He spent time in the American west on a Sioux reserve where he was an activist.

Ed is a Maritimer who really does know the plight of Indians and he addresses that in almost all his posts.

Dave has been the epitome of reasonableness when he gets the chance. I think he's from England, and if so, for a Brit he's pretty darned cool, no offense to either of you.

In the words of who(m)ever, "What we have here is a failure to communicate."

The issue is not one of personalities; it is one of indigenous peoples having a helluva time with their governments. In my own family I have four nephews. They all have the same mother (my sister) and father. Nephews 1, 3 and 4 have treaty rights. Nephew 2 does not. We have written to the band, the chief, our respective members of parliament, the department of Indian Affairs, INAC and half the rest of the alphabet plus the UN, the prime minister (at least three) and maybe Amnesty International. So, I have three nephews with the last name of Day and one with the last name of Murdoch. I do not need any White telling me it's fucked up. I KNOW that.

We have to accept our friends as they are, and even though they may disagree with particular points we feel important, they will back us when the shit hits the fan. I disagree with the people I've mentioned on several things, as do they with me, but they are good people finding their ways too, as am I on odd numbered days.

So, I ask that y'all stop fighting with each other and find some common ground. Fuck Facebook. It don't mean shit. What means something is that for once Indians are getting organized. Despite the wrongs that have occurred, those of us who are Indian or those of us who know the cultures intimately also know that we cannot do it on our own. When all the White folks argue about 'us', we inevitably lose. So, in a word, kiss and make up. Or not. But at least make up. Or at the very least, stop arguing about us.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 02:03 PM

Jeri,

Prime Minister Harper has agreed to meet with Chief Spence in five days. However, Indians have been lied to before once or twice, so the protests will continue until such time as they are halted. They mean no offense, but in the parlance, "We heard that one before."

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 02:16 PM

Yeah, that was pretty much what I was trying to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 02:22 PM

Dave, I'd be willing to be the only reason you're posting in this thread is because Lizzie started it.

Guess you mean bet rather than be, Jeri. But if you were were willing to 'be the only reason' my whole life would be fulfilled :-)

Seriously though, if you do mean bet, you would loose. I would argue against anyone who come out with this type of hysterical nonsense regardless of the seriousness of the issue. In fact, the more serious the issue, the more important it is to address it correctly. The fact that I seem to argue against Liz more than others is simply indicative of the fact that that she does raise serious issues, but in such a way that makes a complete mockery of them. Look back through my posts and you will find I cross swords with many people, including those I count as my friends. I suspect you may find yourself in that group as well but, never once, has anyone suggested I have a vendetta against you or any of them! Liz has accused me of bullying, stalking, trying to shut her up and lying about my own and familial disabilities. Something I will not let lie without a fight.

Bruce. Thanks for your kind words. I do try to be reasonable. The only thing that I will continue to do, and will be called childish for it, which I am :-) is refer to Lizzie as Liz. 'Don't call me...' is a red rag to a bull I'm afraid. Schoolboy humour will win out all the time:-) Glad to see you agree about social media. We all agree about the abuse of the Native Americans. What we can disagree on is that it is more important that the the plight of the Kurds, or the Australian Aborigine, or the Suomi, or Irish Catholics, or any other of the millions of abused peoples around the world. Maybe the American Indians are just prettier or more fashionable in some eyes?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 03:08 PM

Bruce,
Thanks for that - I hope it works.
The meeting is certainly an opportunity.
Time will tell if it will be focused on needed steps to resolve the most pressing issues first, without losing track on the many others that have piled up through the many years.

In previous careers, I worked in the field of community development, and worked with underprivlidged groups and communities and with primary producing groups, often helping them move their priorities forward with government. So, I understand the frustration with what seems to be a lack of progress, that can be interpreted differently by different people.

Personally, I am encouraged by the resulting growth in the maturity of the aboriginal movement. Considering the current climate, I did not anticipate this meeting occuring so soon, but have breathed a sigh of relief that it is happening.

Let's keep our hopes up, (and heads high), thet this is a true opportunity for progress that all Canadians can be proud to be a part of, in moving many of these issues forward to resolution.

M

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 03:25 PM

"Considering the current climate, I did not anticipate this meeting occuring so soon, but have breathed a sigh of relief that it is happening."

It's a funny thing but there's a lot of things going on right now that feel quite positive, something in the air, I don't know, but people are mobilising around different causes that have remained in stasis for decades and even longer. Perhaps some of these movements are a little incoherent, but I find the way that people are currently communicating and mobilising themselves refreshing and the internet certainly seems to be playing a big part in it all.* Power to the people and all that! I hope Spence gets her meeting and things get moving for the indigenous people's movement that she's become a public figurehead for.



* as an aside concerning social media and it's impact (or otherwise, depending on your perspective) on modern politics, it's interesting to note that there's now a 'No Politics Please' (Nopple) app that one can install on Facebook.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 03:51 PM

""Spence gets her meeting""

A clarification, news reports I read says Harper and reps. agreed to meet with Aboriginal community representatives, not with Spence. It indicated that if Spence choose to attend this meeting, (as she is a chief) it would also be fine.

IMO, the other aboriginal community initiatives were more fruitful in getting the meeting than the PR initiative by Spence - though those iniatiatives seemed to get less international and social media coverage.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 04:07 PM

though those iniatiatives seemed to get less international and social media coverage

And, dare I say it, less of the mass histrionics that has beset the Spence PR? Maybe an object lesson in how to actually get things done?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 04:25 PM

"So, I ask that y'all stop fighting with each other and find some common ground."

Gee... where have I heard that before, 9? Good luck with that. Never worked before. Too many people SHOUTING and NObody listening.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 04:36 PM

One person not eating (with an ultimatum) is a consideration, but no more than that, IMO.

Current (local and international) social network concern is not a big factor, IMO. Take the seal hunt for example, the campaign is/was much more vibrant, but never moved any Canadian administration through many years, not one inch.

Potential economic impact on essential transportation is a more significant consideration, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 05:09 PM

1) It's means "it is" or "it was". That's all.

2) Its is the possessive case.

3) I am now no longer White, no matter what you think I am. I am fed up with us/you, no offense.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 05:25 PM

Feel free to be fed up, the world will not stop operating or spinning because of it:)

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 05:49 PM

Ed, that's true, but we WILL bring this place to a halt. There are about 800 members of JTF 2, and there are about 40,000 of us. They don't have the ammo, no offense.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 05:49 PM

Time to whoa up and discuss. Too many important threads get closed when the personal stuff starts and it's heading that way, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 06:07 PM

gnu, that is as as offensive as anything you ever wrote, although I never yet found anything you wrote to now offensive.

OK, I'll shut up, but calm your friends down. I meant no disrespect to Ed, to Harper, to you. If you find what I said to be bad, then tell me why.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 06:47 PM

999 I was refering to your comment on word useage, not to the initiative itself.-guess it was taken differently.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 07:41 PM

No, 9... I have been far more offensive than that. Ed hit the nail on the head, as usual... sharp tack, that ED. I admit I responded to Ed's post too harshly... stunned? silly? Yeah, maybe. But I'll chalk it up to being a bit pissed about sommat else. That don't matter.

9... nowt to do with you. To do with ED's post and where it might lead.

If THAT pisses either of you off, well, schenacadaie. I don't find any of it offensive. If I am wrong, you KNOW I will grovel for forgiveness and truly mean it. But, right now, I don't see it. Maybe I am dense?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 08:28 PM

Bruce, I hear you, but...BUT...

First off, I disagree over Facebook, for it is Facebook that is DRIVING the whole Idle No More movement..It IS making a difference, and with respect, you need to be in there using it in the way I do to truly see what's going on. I also know it helped to bring in money to help save Pe'Sla..and that Amazon Watch also rely on Facebook donations to help them keep going. If they want something 'put out there' they'll come to me to ask me to put it on my page...Chief Raoni's European visit was organized via Facebook recently, in December, word of it also being sent out by Gert, who organized it, videos and photos being sent over from France almost as events were happening...It's instant and it works...

Secondly, and I most certainly don't mean to cause upset to you, but I don't give diddlysquat over the background or pedigree of any of the men mentioned above, for rude bastards are rude bastards, no matter where they come from, and no matter what their backgrounds may be.

I could write thousands of words about them and their sot, but, hey, I'll leave it to Shania

And just for the record, boys, I don't give a tinker's cuss if you like or dislike the way I write. I ain't never going to change..so just don't read it. Problem solved....

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 08:37 PM

This sums it all up for me....

Dana Lone Hill:
"...you gain momentum with every soul you meet that don't give a shit about their future generations, it makes you fight harder for change. Because you never give up on hoping they too will see the light. That they will see what we do here and now will affect the next seven generations, whether that be for better or worse.
"See, really I can't tell you how not to be an activist. Because I care. And I think you do too. However, I will not give up on that awakening of your soul, when I think someday you will realize, enough is enough."

Taken from just one of dozens of Idle No More groups out there now...

United First Nations of Turtle Island - FB Page

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 09:03 PM

Gotta follow up on sommat 9 said.

I don't do Face for the resons he stated. So, LC, where do I go?

I emailed, as I sated earlier, the big chief (Maliseet) here in my Province, and got no response.

My Native friends told me about the protest downtown. I went. There were so few of them and fewer pale and that may have been because of what I said before. What is the link to the MAIN website for Idle No More, LC? How do people join in? Why is this so complicated for people for people who want to join in this protest?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 09:34 PM

http://www.idlenomore.com/, but like other movements these days, the up-to-the-minute notices work better on social media than a website. Websites are best for information that doesn't change much. With outlets such as Twitter or Facebook, they send an update to their subscribers/followers in seconds.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 09:44 PM

And, rude bitches are rude bitches, and you keep proving it.

Max, Joe Offer-If you don't start reining Liz in on using Mudcat to spread her personal insults to others,it likely will get worse:(

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 09:47 PM

In the words of my ancestors, "Fuckin' Ida."

Ed, gnu and Liz, let's relax.

I like and respect all of you. You are all three my friends, as is Greg.

1) I said that Facebook works from time to time.
2) I said (or implied anyway) that Facebook sucks.
3) I said we should all get along since we're on the same side.
4) This shit happened in the late 1960s/early 1970s. It destroyed us.

Love, peace and sardines.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 09:50 PM

Unless such personal insults end, I suggest this post be closed down, as some of Liz's have been before.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 09:51 PM

I meant thread be closed down, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 09:58 PM

As a BTW, Ed T is erudite, incisive and very smart. gnu is a good-hearted, intelligent and up-front man (whom I wish would capitalize his screen name), and Liz is both smart and passionate about the causes in which she believes. We all fight battles in personal ways. The problem too often is we fight those battles among ourselves. Therein we may find DOH!

Love the lot of you even if you detest each other.

Here is a great song; worth a listen. Says lots in few words.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 05:15 AM

Love you too, Bruce...but yup, I'm afraid I'll stand aside, in fact, a LONG way back, when it comes to loving them.

Ed, baby, YOU started this, not me. Go back and look at your first rude and pedantic post. You don't like what I write? Then DON'T read it. That's surely not hard for a very smart guy to get his around, is it? And with regard to your 'bitch' comment, hey, if you can't take it, then don't dish it out. But you do NOT have the right, in my book, to be so damned rude to me, without me coming back to you on what you have said.

gnu, just try getting yourself a Facebook page and CONNECT to the world. Go on, try it and see. Facebook won't bite you! And you can always walk away from it if it's not your thing. All you need to do is type into the FB search box, at the top of your page, any name of any Movement, Politician, Friend, Business, Media Outlet, Subject, etc. that you wish to find.

New one to me, just been sent it this morning: 'Idle No More' Global Day of Action, Solidarity and Resurgence

Official FB page: Main 'Idle No More' FB page

And this one, which hopefully, FB will soon remove, but it shows the other side of this...

Idle No More Resistance - A page for the Racist Bastards

Another page sent to me this morning: Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Spence Hunger Strike

Of course, you're going to need to be ON Facebook to access those links...but I've put them there just to show you a tiny fraction of what's going on in there at present with regard to the Idle No More movement...

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 06:01 AM

I did try Facebook and it bit me... hundreds of people wanted me to be their friend. Most of them were strangers to me and some were people I knew but thought were strange. I also heard many sroies re what Bruce said. I left. I have PMing here, email, Messenger, phone, internet phone, private chat groups... don't need Facebook or the headaches.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 06:53 AM

Lizzzz:

My first post was accurate versus rude as to the value of your Mudcat petititions and your rude and insulting thread title - both to the democratic process in Canada and to Canadians who value democracy, as I do. Substantial change is certainly in order, and overdue, but your title is a clear insult, especially given your limited insight (from your posts) of all the related factors.

It is you that have consistantly tried to limit debate in this thread and others by putting your one-sided position forward that your keyboard tactics from another country,actually made any difference. You have tried to get others from posting anything outside your (wet)dream.

No, I won't be silenced by someone who puts little logic forward and listens to no one except anyone who parrots her own beliefs. Yes I will continue to stimulate logical debate and if you act like a bitch, I will treat you like one, - disrespect intended.

I am surprised that you have never noticed that you are a magnet for insults? I am surprised that you have never considerd the actual reasons why. Consider that it is not any of the the movements you "pretend" to have a great international influence over, your behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 07:07 AM

Lizzz- BTW In your first post in this thread to me, you accused me of calling you "stupid. The record will show that I never used that word.

However, since you introduced it into the discussion, not I, I have wondered (as I read your posts) if you consciously or subconsciously intrioduced the word in "a Fraudian slip" and that you know something that we do not?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 07:16 AM

999- Perhaps ""misguided moral passion is better than confused indifference"", but, in my opinion, not by much - especially if it is combined with arrogance and disrespect.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 08:06 AM

"My first post was accurate versus rude as to the value of your Mudcat petititions and your rude and insulting thread title - both to the democratic process in Canada and to Canadians who value democracy, as I do. Substantial change is certainly in order, and overdue, but your title is a clear insult, especially given your limited insight (from your posts) of all the related factors."

This title is NOT rude. It is also the title of the petition, for keriste's sake! STOP nit-picking over inane things! Go into OTHER threads and tell THEM off for THEIR titles, but for fuck's sake get OFF my back!

Stephen Harper has single-handedly managed to lower Canada's reputation around the world. He is as big an idiot and even more of a danger than Bush ever was. He is a Corporate Puppet and is intent on selling Canada to the Highest Bidder.

Once, not very long ago either, Canada was looked up to around the world. Now, it is being led by a baffoon, as are so many other countries, including my own.

Stuff your 'Democratic Process', for Canada has become an Oligarchy, NOT a Democracy. Many countries are the same now, including the UK...It's called The New World Order..

It is taking the First Nations of your country to wake you all up.   I suggest you join them..and then use your words for supporting them in every way possible, rather than wasting them to insult me, for I've been chased around the internet for YEARS by folks like you..and I learnt long ago how to answer back.

If you DON'T 'Get Harper OUT' then trust me, your country will cease to exist as the True Canada in a few more years..and as her Lakes and Rivers, Lands and Mountains are sold to the Corporate Bastards, Canada will lose more and more of her Once Golden reputation...

The Tar Sands has already done grave damage to that reputation.

You need to start seeing this world without borders, without countries..for what is being done in Canada affects us all. What is happening in Brazil affects us ALL. We are one Species living on ONE planet, and I CARE about the future of my children!   So ANY bastard who is intent on devastating their future for Greed and Power I will do my best to rise up against.

Start fighting for the Seven Generations to come and STOP fighting with me!..

And stop asking for this thread to be closed when it is YOU and your 2 buddies who are doing all the shit-sitrring in here in the first place, just get out of the thread and then peace will return.

Dana Lone Hill:
"...you gain momentum with every soul you meet that don't give a shit about their future generations, it makes you fight harder for change. Because you never give up on hoping they too will see the light. That they will see what we do here and now will affect the next seven generations, whether that be for better or worse.

See, really I can't tell you how not to be an activist. Because I care. And I think you do too. However, I will not give up on that awakening of your soul, when I think someday you will realize, enough is enough."

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 08:27 AM

No, I certainly don't "trust you" Lizz, nor your interpretation of world political events, including democracy in Canada, where I am a proud citizen. And yes, your thread title is insulting and rude-regardless if I as a Canadian support or voted for the current administration or not. You can't squirm out of that one, or dismiss it as unimportant. I have an idea, "think of someone beyond yourself before you "cut and pastie" thread titles", if that does not take too much time from your broader "cut and pastie" initiatives.


BTW, I have no 2 buddies, as you state. It is one of the many illusions you have created in your mind. Your disputes with other are your disputes, that I detect you have hard-earned, though I note your tendancy to lump all people together-what a crock you present.


Liz, I do not need any advice from your example on stimulating change. If more people used your approach, there would be few disputes anywhere resolved.

Change will occur in Canada, but not because of "cut and pastie" initiatives from rude and unfocused ninnies such as you. IMO, while possibly well-meaning, your contribution to these initiatives is in reality meaningless. I would advise you to "take stock" and focus on doing something meaningful, instead of pretending you are impacting something by "riding on the shirt-tails of an internet merry-go round with others -and posting it here.

And yes, you can quote me as calling you "a ninnie", cause I did.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 10:08 AM

Like 999, gnu and, possibly, Ed T, I am an old-stock Canadian with aboriginal relatives. Like them, I am deeply distressed by the dysfunctional relations between the First Nations and the federal government of Canada. Like them, I believe that shrill railing from beyond our borders will do the square root of zero good.

Prime Minister Harper is not particularly sensitive to the daily variations in public opinion; he has a majority government to indicate the opinions of those who matter -- the people who voted in this country on the last election day. Because he has scheduled a meeting with First Nations leaders, and invited Chief Spence, I assume that his Cabinet colleagues and close advisors have recommended this course of action. I note that the agenda for this meeting covers some difficult ground -- specifically, where so much federal government money went with so little to show for it -- as well as some important governance and liaison issues.

The blockade tactics adopted by First Nations protesters have achieved nothing of benefit to anyone. Yes, the situation of many bands is completely unacceptable, but that won't change because the VIA Rail train was stopped on the main line between Toronto and Montreal, or the traffic was prevented from crossing the Peace Bridge at Cornwall.

What had more influence on bringing an end to the U.S. involvement in Viet Nam: the Weather Underground blowing up banks, or middle-class people telling Congress in hundreds of different ways that they wanted the troops home?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 10:14 AM

I don't know if the over-the-top stuff helped. It's possible that first there was a loud noise, and then people listened for the voices behind it. Was the loud noise necessary?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: number 6
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 11:36 AM

from today's CBC .. Attawapiskat audit finds 'no evidence of due diligence'

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 12:32 PM

For the World...and for this Thread....

David R Maracle - Universal Healing

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 12:51 PM

Here's some current comment by three of Canada's most prominent national affairs columnists:

Canada leaves Aboriginal hopes to incubate in misery by Michael den Tandt of the National Post

Too many First Nations people live in a dream palace by Jeffery Simpson of the Globe and Mail

Education reform to trump property rights in First Nations' talks with Tories by John Ibbitson of the Globe and Mail

The Globe website also offers this editorial from 4 January:

A regrettable hunger strike brings about a desirable meeting of minds

The consensus of opinion among the better class of journalists in this country, conservative and liberal alike, is that the current system is, indeed, criminally bad for everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 03:54 PM

Thank you Charmion, for your links and for summing up some points so well.

I suspect (from viewing happenings from the sidelines) that there are environmental activists (and others with thorny side issues) riding on the shirt-tails of legitimate Aboriginal concerns. Hopefully, the Aboriginal leaders are wise (which I know they are) and will see this, and choose to focus on issues that are the most pressing for the Aborginal community with this recent opportunity.

Though it seems real, it is hard to fathom how anyone with a smidgen of sense could blame all of the Aboriginal issues, some that have been with us for many moons, on one man and one Canadian administration. Go figure.

However, you are correct that a growing number of Canadians, those who actually matter in this discussion, want to wrong some historic (and current) wrongs. I am proud to say that I am one of those Canadians, who stands in friendship with my fellow Aboriginal Canadians.. I am confidentthat the growing number of Canadians with a similar conviction will have a much greater impact on success then the "chatter" from the sidelines.

Subject: BS: The Idle No More Movement
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 05:56 PM

Idle No More Actions: Why the Natives are at the Point of Outrage
©by Doug George-Kanentiio
Akwesasne Mohawk

"There are good reasons for Canada's Native people to be at the point where frustration, impatience and anger rush together in a blend of powerful emotions bordering on rage.

It is to the credit of Native people that they have adopted peaceful, non-confrontational tactics as they march across highways and bridges or gather in malls and city centres in flash mobs to let the nation know they will no longer accept the dictates of the federal government, that the time has come to compel Canada to abide by its treaty obligations and remove the shackles of the Indian Act.

When Canada adopted the United Nations Declaration of Indigenous Rights on November 12, 2010 it committed itself to working in partnership to secure the health, safety, self sufficiency and prosperity of Natives while acknowledging an inherent right for aboriginal peoples to make their own decisions and manage their own affairs.

Bill C-45, now federal law, was enacted in direct contradiction to the Declaration as it assumes the federal government has the ultimate right to decide how Native lands may be developed or indigenous title extinguished. It makes it easier for band councils to open their territories for exploitation while omitting any mention of the federal government's treaty obligations. It further entrenches the authority of the band council system to undermine, manipulate and extinguish treaties or aboriginal land title with the compliance of the minister of Indian Affairs.

The people are upset because the lack of consultation in the passage of Bill C-45. They are angry because they believe the federal government is removing environmental protection from millions of hectares of land, much of which was taken from Native people in breach of treaty and aboriginal land title. These areas may well be subject to formal land claims or considered an essential element of an indigenous economy and lifestyle which is intimately tied to the environment. By waiving environmental protection those lands will inevitably be exploited by domestic and foreign companies without the need to consider the effects on aboriginal people or the natural world.

There is anger at the empowerment of a band council system which is alien to how Natives governed their affairs prior to the arrival of the Europeans. As contemporary research has proven Natives had their own way of administering to human needs in a manner which insured the ecological integrity and health of their lands. For thousands of years Native governments oversaw trade, delivered services, provided security and worked to sustain a culture and lifestyle within specific jurisdictional areas. That they had the right and capacity to do so was obviously acknowledged by the European colonial powers through formal treaties, that most fundamental of contracts between sovereign nations. By entering into treaties or trade compacts the Europeans recognized that Native nations were their equal under international law and under that law the unilateral breach of a treaty returns the signatory nations to their previous condition. As the demonstrators have said, Canada is free to abrogate its treaties with Natives but in doing so the land and all of its resources revert back to its former aboriginal status.

For decades non-Native academics, politicians and writers have sought to obscure the complexity and sophistication of aboriginal culture before and during the colonial era. They have used profane language and images in labeling Native people and as a matter of formal policy sought to destroy aboriginal identity. After the treaty era concluded the physical, intellectual, social and spiritual abuse of Native people was accentuated and became a shameful part of Canadian history. Whatever was left of indigenous self determination was wiped out to be replaced by an inefficient, corrupt and alien form of local administration-the band council.

These councils were imposed upon Natives to replace the indigenous governments, often at force of arms. They had nothing to do with the traditional governing methods but instead enacted a system of absolute reliance on the federal government which retains, even to this day, the power to veto any law or action undertaken by the band councils. That such entities are not reflective of indigenous principles of governance is another source of anger for Native people. That these councils are inefficient and often corrupt, created in part to extinguish treaties and make fatal compromises on resource development is a primary concern of most Natives who are infuriated that the federal government is now prepared to give these colonial entities even greater opportunity to exploit their own people.

But what do Natives want? Start with by rescinding the Indian Act followed by a series of national Native congresses to replace the band councils with genuinely aboriginal governments. Make a firm, unqualified commitment to abide by treaties and acknowledge these contracts as agreements between sovereign entities. Break the destructive reliance on federal money by regional resource management agencies based upon open commerce with free trade among Native nations. Have the UN Declaration of Indigenous Rights made into federal law and binding on all provinces and agencies including the Native nations themselves. Work with Native people as they revive their ancestral governments and re-establish regional confederacies. Acknowledge that Native nations have the right to develop their own resources independent of federal interference and remove "Crown land" status across the nation.    And recognize that there is a need to place more resources into removing the myths and lies which have distorted aboriginal history through the creation of a National Aboriginal Museum in Ottawa."

Idle No More - Facebook page

Idle No More - Main site

Some 'history' on Idle No More

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 06:36 PM

If you believe the subject is important, post about it.
If you believe you're more important than the subject, and wish to use Mudcat as your personal "steel cage", please don't bother.

The thread is about Idle No More, and issues related.
You either care about it or not. Show us which.

Personal sniping will likely (hopefully) be deleted from here on out.

Subject: RE: BS: The Idle No More Movement
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 06:23 AM

I was previously unaware of this, but from looking at the Idle No More webpage, it's interesting to note that the Idle No More campaign - as a grassroots people's movement - asserts it's independence from all chiefs, including Spence.

This seems like an important distinction to me - particularly if, as has been implied - there has been any financial iffyness to be found among indigenous leaders; which tbh wouldn't be exactly shocking, for 'leaders' the world over, including among oppressed and poor communities, abuse their position for personal gain.

Glad to see a new thread too, the old one was getting, old..

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 11:45 AM

Two good articles, Charmion, in helping me understand what is going on but 2 of them have had the content removed already :-( I was surprised to see the following -

Chief Spence, leading a group or "nation" of about 1,500 people on the shores of James Bay, demanded at the beginning of her strike a series of meetings with the Governor-General and the Prime Minister. This demand reflected a very old and very wrong idea (part of dream-palace thinking) that the "Crown" is somehow an independent agency with which aboriginal "nations" have a direct relationship, whereas the "Crown" is nothing of the sort.

The "Crown" is the Government of Canada, a matter of clearly established constitutional law, which is why Chief Spence made her demand to meet the Prime Minister, too. Stephen Harper was correct in refusing a face-to-face meeting, since a prime minister should not be blackmailed into doing what any group or individual wants. On Friday, however, he did agree to meet soon with a group of aboriginal leaders that could include Chief Spence.

Looks like people got things wrong on both sides, which returns us to the importance of making sure things are done correctly in the first place!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 12:13 PM

Sorry, Dave -- that's the Globe and Mail for ya. If you're not a paying subscriber, they whisk their content away at the first opportunity. I'll avoid linking to them in future.

The main point Jeffery Simpson raises is that the Government of Canada inherited the responsibilities of the Crown in Canada, including the original treaties with the First Nations. Were they negotiated in good faith in the first place? Who knows? What can the Government of Canada do about it today if they weren't? Well, isn't that the sixty-four thousand dollar question?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 01:49 PM

The Mikisew First Nation and Frog Lake FN (both from Alberta) are putting challenges to parts of both Bill C-38 and C-45 before the Supreme Court, specifically the parts that changes the Navigable Waterways Protection Act. I wish them luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 01:54 PM

Sorry. Federal Court, not Supreme Court.