BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 02:34 PM

"Targets and performance indicators" means something very different from just targets. Obviously you need to know what you are trying to do and what's actually happening.

Your target in this case would be reducing to zero the number of wrongful deportations, just as your target in relation to benefits is bearing down hard on any wrongful denials of provision.

On the walls of wards in our hospital they have target indicators showing the number of occasions something has gone wrong, such as a fall. The aim is to reduced that number to nil, and keep it as nil.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 02:49 PM

Targets and performance indicators" means something very different from just targets

No it does not. It means targets and other PIs as well.

Your target in this case would be reducing to zero the number of wrongful deportations,

No. That is assumed anyway.

The Tory targets were for removing illegals, and Labour would have them too.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 03:02 PM

"Neither would have targets for returning legal ones."
The Tories have been illegally detaining legal immigrants and threatening them with deportation
That is what we are discussing - not the ***** illegal immigrants Abbott referred to
Hopefully Rudd and May will be kicked out on their arses for doing so and all those persecuted by their racist policies fully compensated
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 03:49 PM

I'd love to imagine a Home Office and Benefit Agency Offices where walls were festooned with charts showing the number of decisions overturned by the courts, and identifying that as institutional, and individual, failure. But somehow I don't think it's that way at present.
.........
In today's Guardian Suzanne Moore sums up the situation rather nicely. (I'm pedantically using that term as it should be used.) "We've reached the point in a movie where May is using Amber Rudd's political corpse as a bullet shield."

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 02:21 AM

The Tories have been illegally detaining legal immigrants and threatening them with deportation

No they have not.
The immigration authorities have been wrongly apprehending legal citizens because successive governments had left them with no evidence of their status.

The authorities are mandted to take such action against people with no evidence of being here legally. The problem was that successive governments left genuine people without any means to demonstrate their status.
The Tories have now rectified that.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 03:48 AM

having said that, I agree with McGrath that Rudd has been incompetent, and her statement about targets could justify her being sacked.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 05:11 AM

Individual civil servants who apply a policy - even if it is obeying orders (Dostler Case) - on the basis of the burden of proof of entitlement being on the part of individual as opposed to the burden of proof of non-entitlement being on the part of the institution must be called out. Surely fear of retribution from decent people would then be sufficient motivation to behave decently - including telling ministers of any party who apply immoral legislation where they can go.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 06:19 AM

Rudd is shielding May from the flak she should be rightly getting. Even if she goes from the position she is in you can be sure that Amber will be looked after by her cronies.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 05:20 PM

She's resigned - announced a few minutes ago. About time.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 05:36 PM

I can't see how locking up someone who has legal status can be legal, in the absence of evidence that they are illegal. The fact that they have not produced that evidence is not evidence of illegality. If they have

I would argue that what has happened is evidence of criminal conspiracy on the part of the government.

Roll on a trial of the relevant people in the European Court of Human Rights!

..........
I've just heard the news. One down, one to go. Assuming May won't resign come what may, it's time to revive the process of impeachment in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 05:42 PM

May won't resign because her immensely-rich cabal of Tax-avoiding/evading puppet-masters wont permit her to - she is required by them to deliver a hard Brexit prior to the introduction of the new EU anti-tax-avoidance and evasion rules which come into force in May, 2019.

Once she's fulfilled that task, who knows - she'll probably be cast aside and abandoned to her fate.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 06:22 PM

Poor woman, she was a bloody good Home Secretary.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 07:34 PM

She did not carry out her legal and moral duties when it came to the Windrush generation. She presided over and colluded in actions of gross injustice, which have shamed this country in the eyes of the world, even after these were brought to her attention. That is not being a good Home Secretary.

However she was a lot better than her predecessor, it must be admitted.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 02:55 AM

and if abbott attempted that post - I couldn't possibly comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 03:05 AM

So the left & mainstream media get their kill. In the meantime Corbyn doesn't do anything over the anti-Semitism that is rife in his party.

Abbott makes gaffe after gaffe

The world is now run by social media & the press apparently!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 03:48 AM

She presided over the deportation, and threatened deportation, of immigrants and their families from Commonwealth countries who were invited here during the post-WW2 rebuilding, and who have a legal right to be here and remain here.

She claimed not to know anything about it, despite being the Minister responsible for it.

She then admitted that she did know about it.

She countenanced illegal deportations, she was complicit in an illegal act.

She lied to Parliament, an act specifically proscribed by Parliamentary regulations. Here's what it says on Page 30 of the Parliamentary Code...

"It is of paramount importance that Ministers give accurate and truthful information to Parliament, correcting any inadvertent error at the earliest opportunity. Ministers who knowingly mislead Parliament will be expected to offer their resignation to the Prime Minister."

What don't you understand about that, Bozo? You're not a Thick Cunt, stop pretending to be one.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 03:56 AM

Your post Backwoodsman sums it all up very succinctly.
She should have fallen on her sword ages ago, I'm glad she's gone. Serves her right.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 04:14 AM

Thanks, Sen. And apologies for my coarse language, I do have a tendency to allow my language to degenerate occasionally, but I'm from a background where people call a spade a f***ing spade, and sometimes I just can't stop myself! But I do have the grace to feel shame afterwards! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 04:28 AM

I can't see how locking up someone who has legal status can be legal, in the absence of evidence that they are illegal. The fact that they have not produced that evidence is not evidence of illegality

Again, there can be no evidence of illegality, only absence of legality evidence, and it clearly is legal to detain such people.

The fault lies with successive governments who failed to provide the Windrush folk with evidence, or to even recognise that there was an issue.

Kate Hoey said on Peston that they had targets for removing illegals under Jack Straw, and I am sure there has been ever since.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 04:32 AM

Her job, all along, has been to keep the flak off May - that was clearly given to her as her main priority by Theresa The Praying Mantis, and she's done it very well. She was The Praying Mantis's umbrella and flak-taker during the last GE, appearing on TV numerous times to answer hard questions which, by right, May herself should have faced had she had the courage. Rudd has appeared regularly since, answering for things that rightly should be May's responsibility.

Now, she's taken the fall for The Praying Mantis one final time. I'd love to know what May promised her for being her fall-guy and taking all the shit, I just hope, for Amber's sake, that May has the decency to stick to her promise.

But I suspect she hasn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 04:44 AM

Can may be far behind (as the poem says)
TIME FOR LORD SNOOTY and his gang
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 05:39 AM

Rudd has gone - replaced by Sajiv Jhan.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 05:39 AM

Typo - Khan!

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 05:42 AM

Can we clear up this "illegal" thing
If the arrest, detention and threat of deportation of citizens legally living in Britain is not covered by British law, then Britain is a police state
This doesn't just involve arrest, but at leas one legal resident of Britain who went to the West Indies to visit relatives has been denied the right to return home for eight years - we don't know yet if there are more who have experienced the same treatment
If this is not a national crime, then it is a human rights abuse and needs to be treated as such
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 05:51 AM

That would happen to anyone in any country who lacked the relevant papers.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 06:00 AM

I think the new Home Secretary is called Sajid Javid (not Khan) but I may be wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 06:40 AM

If it's the bloke who looks like Humpty-Dumpty In a hot summer, it's Sajid Javid.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:31 AM

Sajid Javid.
A former official at Chase Manhattan Bank and Managing Director of Deutsche Bank at £3m a year
At a Conservative Friends of Israel lunch in 2012, The Jewish Chronicle reported Javid as stating that "if he had to leave Britain to live in the Middle East, then he would choose Israel as home. Only there, he said, would his children feel the 'warm embrace of freedom and liberty'".
The future of Britain's minorities is in a safe pair of hands then!!!
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:31 AM

Hahaha yes, he doesn't have much hair does he? Apparently he used to be managing director of Deutsche Bank. Hmmm...

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:51 AM

Can we legitimately call him a Merchant Banker?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 09:26 AM

"Can we legitimately call him a Merchant Banker? "
Doncha just love rhyming slang!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 01:28 PM

"If it's the bloke who looks like Humpty-Dumpty In a hot summer, it's Sajid Javid"

He'll look very good opposite a hippo in a cold spring!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 01:54 PM

"Any country", Keith? I am countries who don't deserve that insult. Countries where the authorities in cases like this would realise that they needed to supply evidence of illegal status before imprisoning people who claimed to be here legally, but who couldn’t produce required evidence.

Such as in the case of people such as Hubert Howard, who had a passport from Jamaica with an official signature on a stamp indicating he had arrived at the age of three 58 years ago, and who supplied evidence of school attendance, but who lost his job and his home because the Home Office refused to accept those as valid evidence.

Stop making excuses for stuff that not even Theresa May would now excuse, Keith. Do you really believe "That would happen to anyone in any country". There are some countries where I can imagine that happening, true enough. I hope there aren't many. One is more than enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 02:52 PM

FOR FUCK SAKE WHO CARES?????????

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 02:58 PM

The people affected care. Their relatives care. Their friends care. Their workmates at jobs that they have lost care. People who value justice care. People who value compassion care. And, although I do not personally know anybody affected, I care.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 03:24 PM

Bonzo is the archetypal Tory, David. He does not understand what you are talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 03:38 PM

Absolutely!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 03:42 PM

Amber Rudd I suspect cares very much about the consequences. So does Theresa May,, though one must hope that she will care much more before too long.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 04:10 PM

I care very much. People have suffered as a result of this cruel policy.
And I'm a Tory.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 04:12 PM

I am shocked. You sound so reasonable.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 04:39 PM

You're not an archetypal Tory though, Sen. You just vote for them! I don't understand it but it is your choice and I will not fall out with you for it. I am sure you want to distance yourself from people with Bonzo's attitude. (Which I suspect is not the real Bonzo BTW. He just likes to play troll every now and then)

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 05:10 PM

There have been some very odd and aggressive posts recently from Bonzo haven't there? Sad, because I've often had some lovely conversations with him over the years. Perhaps it isn't him after all. A while ago, someone posted some awful stuff in my username, and Joe had to delete it all.
My husband is a lovely, caring and kindly man, and he too votes Tory!
(runs off donning tin hat)

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 06:21 PM

Most people actually are good people. It's easy to forget that., because so often the bad people seem to be in charge. I don't know if being in charge turns them bad, or because they are particularly equipped to get in positions of power. A bit of both, I suspect.

As the verse puts it:
"The rain it raineth on the just
And also on the unjust fellas
But chiefly on the just, because
The unjust steal the just’s umbrellas.”

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 06:30 PM

When I was quite young, my mother took me on the bus into West Ealing. It was when Caribbean immigrants had just started to arrive, and a very black chap got on our bus. I'd never seen one before, and shouted out very excitedly, "Mummy! Mummy! Look! A chimney sweep has got on the bus!" She nearly died of shame (none of my family has ever been racist) and turned to apologise profusely to the man. I remember to this day how he laughed and laughed, and his lovely white teeth shone.
I didn't know it then, but in the future I'd travel all over West Africa and marry a man from Ivory Coast!

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 May 18 - 03:10 AM

I have a theory on those in power, Kevin. If someone believes they are capable of running a country and making decisions that affect millions of peoples lives they should be barred from holding any position of power on the grounds of insanity. The people you want running things are the normal, nice, ordinary folk that manage their own lives very well and have no greed or delusions of grandeur.

I am available... :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 18 - 03:51 AM

"And I'm a Tory. "
I hope people here are discussing politicians rather than individuals, Sen, though I will say that you are not helped by you fellow Tory's FOR FUCK SAKE WHO CARES?????????
These actions were carried out to meet targets - those who set those targets are ultimately responsible
Is immigration really such a serious problem as to need targeting?
When Enoch Powell said it was his party ostracised him and the only people who would accept him were sectarian Northern Irish bigots
I would have thought there were far more serious issues that deserve targeting - the
THE RAPID RISE IN RACISM in Britain is far more important than making the lives of people who have lived in Britain and contributed to its well-being miserable and insecure.
"A chimney sweep has got on the bus!"
The beautiful Terence Davies film, 'The Long Day Closes', based on his Liverpool childhood, depicts a similar reaction - not from a child but an adult
When I was an apprentice on the docks in Liverpool I remember the eager friendliness of many of the seamen, Africans and Lascars in particular, who would share their food with us (I fell in love with curry on a ship berthed in The Albert Dock)
I never got over the shock of the sign carved over the then segregated public dock toilets (in marble) which read on one side "MEN" and on the other "ASIATICS"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 May 18 - 04:09 AM

I'd vote for you Dave! :)

That's horrifying Jim. A quarter of us admit to being racist! It's so ignorant, and to assume someone who is of a different race is less intelligent or less able is appalling.

I'm not sure how one tackles racism. We're lucky as no-one over the years here in Norfolk has ever exhibited anything like that towards us. And we've noticed more and more mixed-race couples going round the supermarkets with their trolleys. Lovely to see.

I have a (perhaps misguided!) view that most people (of any race) are good-hearted, but that figure of 25% shows I'm wrong about that.
I've had "Toubab!" shouted at me in Senegal, but it only means, "Aha! A white lady!" and I didn't see it as any more than a sort of observation.
Sigh. What can be done to change people's unkind and hurtful attitudes?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 May 18 - 04:40 AM

the problem we have now is that the government is so weak it has to play to the gallery of the worst and most racist aspects of their own party. This doesn't mean that every Tory voter is racist - misguided mainly, but it can only be down to individual voters to knock the more extreme elements into touch so the tail no longer has the dog to wag.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 18 - 04:56 AM

Kevin,
Countries where the authorities in cases like this would realise that they needed to supply evidence of illegal status

Not true because there is no "evidence of illegal status" to supply. The system here and in every other country relies on evidence of legal status, and all countries expel people who have no such evidence.

Stop making excuses for stuff that not even Theresa May would now excuse, Keith.

What I have said is not an excuse, and the treatment of these people has been inexcusable. They were shamefully mistreated and I have said so all along.

I just object to it being politicised. The Windrush folk should never have been left without proof of status. No one government is to blame for that, and Labour started the "hostile environment" thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 18 - 05:13 AM

" but that figure of 25% shows I'm wrong about that."
Not really Sen
Those who rule us invariably cover up their inadequacies by blaming others - "foreigners" have long been the scapegoat
Some of the most generous, warm-hearted people I have ever met have suffered from the Achilles heel of racism
West Clare, where I live, is noted for its friendliness, yet its attitude to Travellers still makes me weep at times
Misguided doesn't automatically mean bad
The term Xenophobia dates back to ancient Greece, from the time the Greek army had been sent to invade Persia and had been abandoned by its Government and left to make its way back home through hostile territory - a fear based on betrayal - a perfect example of what's happening today
Most "racists" don't act on their prejudices, (I couldn't begin to count the number of times I've heard someone say to a foreigner, "I'm not talking about you".
I find racism a distressing aspect of our society, but I believe the ones who openly advocate racial superiority and intolerance truly intolerable, which is why I fall out with the people I do as often as I do on this forum
(I'm not talking about you, of course!!!!)   
Jim Carroll