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BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Aug 19 - 11:15 AM "If you don't wear your trousers up to your tits, you don't know much. what an idiotic comment" It's a disparagingly insulting comment on how old people like Fred Jordan and Harry Cox dressed Dick - not to be takentoo seriously, much like most statements by the maker Pretty well sums up the outlook of many who don't like folk song Jim |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST Date: 15 Aug 19 - 11:46 AM "Pretty well sums up the outlook of many who don't like folk song ..." and know even less. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Aug 19 - 11:50 AM "and know even less." Drink to that one Jim |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: The Sandman Date: 16 Aug 19 - 05:34 AM Here is a suggestion, this undoubtedly has flaws but something to consider, if the BBC deem it necessary to have awards An Award for the best young[under40] folk club organiser, an award for the best young folk[under40] festival organiser. I suggest this because these are two things that are lacking in the uk folk revival. What else needs improving, the overall standard of floor singers? this could be divided into sections[rule one no performing with scraps of paper]. I do not approve of awards, but if the BBC insists on having them then logically, those aspects of the uk folk revival that are in need of strengthening should be looked at. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Vic Smith Date: 16 Aug 19 - 06:09 AM Dick wrote :- rule one no performing with scraps of paper .... or using iPads or similar hand held electronic devices as prompts (though my impression as a regular song session and folk club goer is that this is on the decline in my area). If you want to be able to communicate a song, you must learn it properly first. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,Some bloke Date: 16 Aug 19 - 06:35 AM heh heh "The BBC has nothing to do with folk song" Ha Ha Ha deeeeaaarrrryyy meee... You give value for money Jim, I'll give you that one. a bit like saying I don't like folk songs. Your view on multi coloured aardvarks winds me up too, and for the same reasons. (Funnily enough, Fred Jordan thought it hilarious when I introduced him on stage as "old tit trousers." it was a running joke between him, Tom Brown and me. I was fortunate as a young singer to go round the festival circuit with Tom and Bertha Brown, got to know many of the influencers of the folk revival. Although apparently I don't know anything.) Saying things about others without foundation isn't helpful Jim. Just because Donald Trump gets away with it, it doesn't help discussions amongst grown ups. Although it does seem to put you and Dick on the same wavelength so can't be all that bed eh? |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: The Sandman Date: 16 Aug 19 - 06:48 AM Tom Brown,[ not to be confused with tom who is married to barbara brown] I remember him, he was the man ,that sang a homophobic song called my second name is clarence but you can call me clare,imo a very unpleasant song poking fun at people with different sexual orientations, and in my opinin he was not much of a singer, i doubt his authenticty as a tradtional singer , he was in my opinion an average unaccompanied revival singer, but we all have different tastes ,some bloke, if you like the company of people who sing homophobic songs about sexual orientation that tells me something about you ,too |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,akenaton Date: 16 Aug 19 - 07:43 AM Don't let Ian wind you up Sandman....without his alter egos he is just a bit pathetic. "The Muskets" are history. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,akenaton Date: 16 Aug 19 - 07:59 AM BTW...I fully agree with the points you have been making in regard to "Folk music awards" |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Aug 19 - 08:21 AM "The BBC has nothing to do with folk song" I already said that - why repeat it ? The BBC have a history of isolating the best of folk onto (previously) The Third Programme and when the best of it sneaked out via Midlands Radio, hastily closed the Features Department and got rid of the best of their broadcasters like Charles Parker and Philip Donnellan The closing of the Radio Ballads because the team refused accept the removal of the "exterminate the Travellers" statement was typical of its approach Their neglect of the most important project, the 1950s mopping-up remains a disgrace - still largely unavailable 70 years later Sorry Bloke (I couldn't remember your earlier multi-personas until Ake just mentioned it) - I have to say you blew it with me long time ago when you started denegrating and insulting the people who gave us their magnificent with your "tit-trousers" " so can't be all that bed eh?" Are you suggesting we're having an affair !! Jim |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Big Al Whittle Date: 16 Aug 19 - 09:55 AM no they aren't definitions. they are your opinions about a subject which is hotly debated at every level of society and academia. Only The Pope and The Mullahs and that class of know-all,knows they are absolutely unchalleneably right. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Aug 19 - 10:32 AM "no they aren't definitions." 'fraid they are al They are not "hotly debated" - a few high flyers have gone rogue and decided to make them something else, but as the numbers are far to few to even scratch the surface of over a century's research they don't mean quat All of which is a million miles away from the club scene which is declining at the rate of knots basically because nobody knows what they will be served if they go to a folk club any more If you say there is a debate, pwerhaps yo can tell me what the academic's arguments are and who is putting them No ? Thought not Jim |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Aug 19 - 10:33 AM No debate necessary btw - it's all far too well documented to need one Jim |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Big Al Whittle Date: 16 Aug 19 - 12:07 PM Every strate of academia debates it. Because upon it depends the validity of our ideas about society, linguistics and culture and all culrral activities. Every sociologist is obsessed with the idea of whether we should respect and preserve working class culture whose play and cultural activities may constitute delinquecy to our upper class administrators, and the morality of subtly trying to replace indigent working class culture with more acceptable avenues of behaviour. Basically = you are entitled to your opinion, but not mine. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Aug 19 - 12:46 PM "Every state of academia debates it." Where Al Nobody debates it - if that's not true, give me examples One of the great failures of the folk song revival is its failure to catch the attention or the interest of the general public - we are a few tadpoles swimming around in a small, self created piss-pot If it was being debated that would be an indication that the scene was a healthy one At one time we had a steadily rising number of clubs and supporters - now dwindled to a trickle of elderly hangers-on Sociologists have largely failed to recognise folk song as being an important aspect of working class life, certainly on this side of the pond The have not taken folk song seriously because those involved have failed to do so - your - 'singing horse' definition has helped with that largely, now it stands to drive the nails into the coffin of a rapidly fading genre Show me where folk song is being debated Al - I really would love to be part of that Over the last two plus decades Pat and I have given talks in four Universities and several colleges Each time we have come away with the feeling that we are ploughing new ground when we try to put our songs and tales into a social context - In the main, people fave never really been interested in what 'the folk' think about their songs and stories - certainly not enough to ask them in any detail A few have - Lomax did some tremendous work; so did Mike Yates (go read some of his articles on the Musical Traditions' site There has been a hostile takeover of the term 'folk' on the club scene, largely by people who neither line nor understand folk song and wish to use 'folk' for their own unidentifiable genres (they don't even have a consensus among themselves) That is, to my mind, a betrayal of one of our most important cultural and artistic forms A crying shame - I say I'm glad the Irish scene has had the sense to build a future for its folk arts by first laying firm foundations Jim |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Big Al Whittle Date: 16 Aug 19 - 01:33 PM Well save your breath for some more worthwhile endeavour. Its not a case of right or wrong - some people think differently from you - and they're entitled to. This is a website of all the informal folk clubs over our area. https://sanchobramble.weebly.com/ It shows the places where people are out there doing their thing 7 days a week....why are you so determined that they should not be allowed to think what they are doing is folk music? Earlier this week I was reading the sleeve notes as I listened to an album called Louis Armstrong plays WC Handy, it quotes someone called Abby Niles writing a foreword of WC Hangy's book, A Treasury of the Blues. Handy's object in writing Blues he says is 'to speak the tongues of folk singers - meaning not only their words and turns of thought, but the musical language'. Continually you impute the most venal and unworthy motivations. I really don't understand why you think - any other reaction but that of a curator of the tradition is the unacceptable face of folk music. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Aug 19 - 01:51 PM Don't understand your link Al - that's a promotion of 'folk events - as far from "academic debates" as you can get I've given you the centuries established, worldwide accepted, and closely documented definition of folk song (not mine by any means) - could you perhaps give me yours and guide me to where I can read it up to see who agrees with it Wht do you constantly skirt around the fact that folk muic is he music of the people, created by the 'ordinary' people, kept alive and passed on by them - a poetic-musical form that represents our past experiences - our oral history in verse Surely that's worth a mention - even if it's only a dismissal Jim |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Big Al Whittle Date: 16 Aug 19 - 02:16 PM how ordinary do they have to be/ They're doing their best to be ordinary. I'm not dismissing your point of view. If it works you - great! I'm just saying - other otdinary people see their relationship with the term folk music differently. Kicking each other shins and denying the validity of views which are onviously held in good faith. It can only antagonise, divide and make us less significant as a movement |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,Some bloke Date: 16 Aug 19 - 02:23 PM Anyway. Jim said The BBC has nothing to do with folk songs and he replied that he already said that. Err.. I wasn't patting you on the back, merely laughing at the absurdity of your statement. Still, nice to see you getting support from places where confusion is only the start of their problems... Meanwhile, for the rest of us, I am as ever looking forward to seeing how the full range of that nebulous genre "folk" gets on in that annual entertainment that is the BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards. By the way Jim, if you must give a definition of folk, watch out. You hardly scratched the surface of the musical genre. I recall as a teenager being in a punk band, we raged against the corporate pop music industry because ours was (and I'll quote you here) "music of the people, created by the 'ordinary' people.." Perhaps if you limit your comments to the very narrow field within "folk" which you revere, you might sound more credible but the more you rant, the more odd they sound and easy it is to dismiss your comments. As many have pointed out, in a narrow field within folk, you are rather knowledgable but your insistence of claiming 5% to be 100% is up there with your mate Akenaton. Well done. This is about the awards, I suppose the main topics for constructive debate would be 1. Does a wide enough range of talent and style get to be nominated? 2. Is competition a good way to promote a musical genre to the wider public? Everything else is stodgy gravy. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Vic Smith Date: 16 Aug 19 - 02:49 PM Jim wrote :- In the main, people fave (presumably 'have') never really been interested in what 'the folk' think about their songs and stories I declare my resistance to enter the debate because I feel a sense of the beginning of this thread returning to the hoary repetitious statements from entrenched positions that we have heard many times before. However, I would like to ask politely of Jim these questions:- * Who are 'the folk' or 'ordinary' people that he has mentioned in his recent posts? It may be that you are talking generally but your decision to mark them with inverted commas suggests something more specific. If you could help us with these, I'm sure that it would bring clarity to the debate and help us to progress the discussion. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Aug 19 - 02:52 PM "I wasn't patting you on the back, merely laughing at the absurdity of your statement. " And I was just kicking yours into touch So far Al has shuffled around the fact that there is a long established definition of the music that served as a source of interest and entertainment for nearly four decades It's recorded in title as far back as 'The Penguin Book of Folk Song' right through to the magnificent eight volume Greig Duncan Folk Song Collection There are many thousands of books and articles describing its uniqueness as an art form I'm afraid yur somewhat evasive bullshit doesn't come anywhere near to l=knocking down that monulment to working people's culture and creation THere aren't enough "other ordinary people" to scratch together an alternative definition, it would appear Al Whoops - have to be more careful - just spilled my stodgy gravy down my "tit trousers"] You pair really aren't explaining yourselves at all clearly Jim |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Vic Smith Date: 16 Aug 19 - 03:07 PM 02.49 mine and 02.52 Jim's so it looks like we cross posted, so I think I can take it that Jim's latest comment does not refer to me and that I can still look forward to answers to my questions. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge Date: 16 Aug 19 - 04:06 PM I `ad that Sublime Ashtray in my cab the other day. `e was scouring through the Radio Times while we were going along. I said, "`ere, what are you looking for then? `e said , "Oh, Morning Jim. I went to the proms the other day. We `ad a smashing night with all the classical stuff and what `ave yer. I was just looking to see `oo won the competition. We `ad to leave before the end so I am looking to see if the BBC `ave published the results. I said, "It`s not an awards ceremony, it`s just a concert, you Wally." `e said, " Gor Blimey. I put a tenner on Beethoven at 20 to 1. I been taken for a right ride by that shyster bookie in the pub!!" Whaddam I Like?? |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,Akenaton Date: 16 Aug 19 - 04:32 PM Yer pissin intae the wind Jim....the "folk" in here hiv nae sense eh yoomur at aw" :0) |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,akenaton Date: 16 Aug 19 - 04:44 PM real folk music |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST Date: 16 Aug 19 - 05:04 PM which "folk" would they be ? |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Aug 19 - 03:28 AM Vic Sorry - did cross post 'Ordinary person' is not a term I particularly like, but is seems it's the one we're stuck with till a better one comes along. I avoid the term 'working person' because that leads ot accusations of a political agenda (strangely enough, I can think of no greater 'political agenda' than setting out to claim that 'working people have never composed their own folk songs which described their own lives, but had to go out and buy them. The vast body of what we have referred to as 'folk songs' came largely from the rural working people, land labourers, small farmers, rural village dwellers, village tradesmen, occupants of workhouses.... Added to this were the sea songs which describes the lives of sailors; soldiers.... A little work was done on collecting songs from mill workers and miners. All these seem to me that main source of our folk songs In my opinion, 'the people' not only sang the songs but, when you examine the content of them, they almost certainly made the bulk of them (rather than, as now is being claimed) purchasing them There is masses of as yet unexamined evidence to make this a great probability - 'the folk' certain had the ability to have made the songs People sang all sorts of songs, pop songs, hymns, music-hall pieces - some of the Welsh Miners formed societies and sang Verdi and Gilbert and Sullivan - it would be nonsense to claim everything the 'folk' sang was 'folk' but that seems to be the latest academic fad (though I have yet to see Hank Williams songs with Roud numbers, I wonder why, some of our Traveller friends had dozens of them). Of course, it isn't just who sang the songs that makes them 'folk', it's what happened to them - the anonymity, the adopting of the songs as 'ours' wherever they took root, the changing and adapting to fit different areas, circumstances and conditions - the singers we met laid claim to the folk songs they sang as 'ours' - Norfolk, West Clare, the Travellers... THere is also how the singers visualised the songs they sang, identifying not just with the plots, but giving thee characters identities - Walter Pardon did this with nearly all his songs One Traveller singer told us that singing a song was "like sitting in the pictures" All this produced a identifiably unique body of song that drew people like us into the clubs decades ago - we enjoyed singing and listening to them, some singers made new songs usinf the old forms - because they worked. Some of us took it further and lifted the corner to see if there was anything underneath Pat, I and others came to the conclusion that they were an essential but much neglected part of our history - an oral record, largely unrecorded, of what happened to working people and how they reacted to it and felt about it. From a purely personal point of view, my family fled Ireland after the famine - their lives and experiences were massively reflected in song My father's family were merchant seamen - reflected in the songs (my uncle once entertained a roomful of people at Sidmouth by singing shanties he'd learned from my grandfather) My dad became a navvy - reflected in the small handful of songs on working on the road.... He also became involved in Irish politics around the time Ireland was fighting for independence - reflected in hundreds of songs What makes our folk songs stand apart from all other forms is their uniqueness, in form, in content and in function For me, all of this is worth drawing attention to, even if I can no longer enjoy listening to the songs in the once numerous clubs Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: The Sandman Date: 17 Aug 19 - 04:03 AM I .ad that jim knowledge in my cab the other day, i said er jim all this stuff your writing on mudcat ,i thought you were a taxi driver,not a taxi dermist,that jim knowlkedge he said dont you call my taxi shit . i am german he said i keep myb taxi well regulated and clean it is not shit. i said get stuffed you animal |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Aug 19 - 04:09 AM supposing some idiot came up with a definition of folk music, what would it prove - other than he was as big an idiot as the last bloke who tried to come up with a definition. Insisting that the last idiot was right still doesn't alter the fact that the term 'folk music' is in common usage and means something very different from what Mr Idiot said. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: The Sandman Date: 17 Aug 19 - 04:32 AM * What qualifications does a person need to decide who are 'the folk' and who is 'ordinary'?" a degree in folk music from the newcastle degree course |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Aug 19 - 04:32 AM "supposing some idiot came up with a definition of folk music, " You mean "a new definition of folk music" surely Al ? There is already a perfectly serviceable one and has been since for over half a century - in need of tweeking admittedly but far mor agreed upon than by a few dying clubs In fact, as it is used at present, it means so many different things to so many different people that it is meaningless Folk song has passed by the vast majority of people as to be totally unknown to them - you could probably say the same about quantum physics - tha doesn't in any way impact on the true meaning of the term Jim |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Aug 19 - 04:32 AM "supposing some idiot came up with a definition of folk music, " You mean "a new definition of folk music" surely Al ? There is already a perfectly serviceable one and has been since for over half a century - in need of tweeking admittedly but far mor agreed upon than by a few dying clubs In fact, as it is used at present, it means so many different things to so many different people that it is meaningless Folk song has passed by the vast majority of people as to be totally unknown to them - you could probably say the same about quantum physics - tha doesn't in any way impact on the true meaning of the term Jim |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Vic Smith Date: 17 Aug 19 - 05:59 AM Thank you, Jim, for clear and useful answers to my questions and for your explanations of the way you use these terms. Even where I disagree with you, it is useful to know the way that you have arrived at these opinions. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Aug 19 - 08:34 AM unarguable - I'm not sure what quantum physics is. If the meaning of physics has never changed, I'd be surprised. Talking to a sciece teacher aquaintance, I know for a fact that the chemistry knowledge that got me through one of my few O levels is now considered 'a load of old rubbish' (his actual words). |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Aug 19 - 08:56 AM "If the meaning of physics has never changed, I'd be surprised" Just as I am nonplussed why the meaning of 'folk' has changed Al - particularly as those who would insists it has either can't or won't tell me what it has changed to Jim |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: The Sandman Date: 17 Aug 19 - 12:17 PM There was a time when the BBC ran a useful series of programmes called hold down a chord, that was when they had a brief which included education , they now seem to believe in being commercial only |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,akenaton Date: 17 Aug 19 - 02:07 PM Yes, that's right. I've still got the record and tutor...think it was John Pearce? |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Aug 19 - 02:38 PM Pearse - he used to make guitar strings. Kepr Derek Brimstone supplied. They were mates. I think John went to live in Scandinavia, and died there a few years back. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Backwoodsman Date: 17 Aug 19 - 04:09 PM John Pearse lived for many years in the US, initially working for CF Martin on design projects, following which he started the Breezy Ridge Instrument Co, selling his own range of guitar-accessories. He moved to Germany in 2002, and died there in 2008. |
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