Lyr Add: The Next to Die in Texas

Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Mbo
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 03:43 PM

I'm telling you, ya gotta dig some holes in the Antartican permafrost and put them in it. Remember the Klingon dilithium mine penal colony on the ice asteroid Rura Penthe in Star Trek VI:The Undiscovered Country? Gives new meaning to the term "in the freezer"...

Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: GUEST,Potter
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 04:08 PM

It is doubtful that we will find redemption from our baser natures unless there is something forcing us, both individually and collectively, to face the consequences of the evil we do. We don't put someone to death because they are worse than us, we do it because they are JUST LIKE US and we desire the greatest possibility for them and us to realize our evil and turn from it. It's a bitter pill to swallow in an age where rationalization has allowed us to live with ourselves in our evil, not realizing that all the while it is escalating.

Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 04:27 PM

In the story, Les Miserable, Jean val Jean was sentenced to 10 years in a galley (not to be confused with a cooking job) for stealing a loaf of bread. He stole it because his family was hungry. Period. In those days, there were the very rich and the dirt poor. The poor had NO OTHER OPTION. There was no welfare then, you stole, or you went hungry.

Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 05:04 PM

And that is still what is happening, Kendall, in the extreme poverty of the Muslim countries. Just finished the book, I think I mentioned above, about the state of women in those countries. Hands are cut off if a woman is caught wearing nail polish! Fingers are screwed together and eyes and ears are drilled with electric drills to extract false confessions of guilt. The right wing extremists wreak havoc among the poor and women, especially. I don't think going back to public executions or severe penalties for petty theft is what we should be doing. Somehow humankind needs to grab the next rung in the evolutionary ladder and climb it. There has to be a better way than going back.

Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 06:33 PM

kat - That was the gist of my first post. A discussion of the fairness or justice of our system misses the point. It's that old Ghandi-esque argument: You can't end violence through more violence. The karma of your application of justice reverberates and cannot be explained away with a "he had it coming".

There has to be a point where you stand up and ask the question: ARE WE NOT MEN?

Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: GUEST,Mbo_at_ECU
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 06:44 PM

Gandhi said "All through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time they can seem invincible, but in the end they always fall, always."

--Mbo

Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Mooh
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 07:17 PM

DougR,

Actually, I do think that "do unto others..." and "thou shalt not kill" were intended universally, for states, groups and individuals. States shouldn't be able to opt out of these, but that's my view, states being a group of individuals. That individuals don't adhere to these, means all the more that states should. In the end I can't change the world, but I can change myself and "my back yard". I can't enforce my views, but I can represent my views by word and action. Hopefully I can do this and die without regret, and with hope that I have been true to myself.

No minds have been changed? Perhaps. Opened? Yup.

Still mudcatting. Mooh.

Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 07:48 PM

How exceptional does something have to be before it ckunts as "unusual"? Sooner or later the minority of countries which still have Capital Punishment will drop it. And eventually it'll be so unusual that the US Constitution ban on "cruel and unusual puinishment" will kick in.

And even now I'm pretty sure that killing somebody after keeping them in jail for 19 years for a crime they may have committed when they were 17 is definitely an extremely unusual thing to do in any part of the world, including China, Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan.

And I don't think you'd find that many people, even among supporters of capital punishment who wouldn't think it was cruel - even if they believed the cruelty was justified.

Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 08:11 PM

So. Does anyone have any strong feelings about this subject?

DougR

Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: BK
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 11:04 PM

Many things in the real world are ugly beyong any reasonable explanation or comprehension. To those who would "8X8" or "throw away the key," or make 'em do "hard labor" (THAT one's REALLY a laugh!!!!).

Get a job in any prison system; work it a while - don't run away. Do your best to remain ethical & considerate, hard working.. Make damn sure you don't sink to the ethical level of the more dysfunctional among the inmate population. Then tell us what you think can REALLY happen.

Suffice it to say that it (8X8, etc) AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN. It is truely not realistic.

Like treatment options for many biological diseases - diabetes mellitus comes to mind - there are NO good choices for dealing with many of the human race's sickest individuals. (& perhaps groups.. but ya gotta be careful.. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the very groups some have mentioned are eyeing the nuclear arsenal of the former Soviet Union.. [We need a folk song abt the Mullah's w/their fingers on the buttons..] sleep soundly, gang.)

Cheers, BK

Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 11:33 PM

No you don't. You just need another enemy to take your people's minds off the REAL problems of life.

Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: DougR
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 12:26 AM

Guest: Which are?

DougR

Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: JamesJim
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 01:18 AM

I'm always late on these kinds of threads, mainly because I shy away from them (as long as I can). These thoughts keep coming to me and I can't avoid it anymore.

Here's the story (part true, part imagined) of two young men. One became a policeman, just like his father. He was from a good, but poor family. He wanted to save people from injustice. He had watched his father all of his young life and he was very proud. He listened intently to the stories his father would tell at night. He saw the agony on his father's face when he had witnessed death; when humanity had been inhumane. Yet, his father would go back the next day and the next and the next. He was so proud of his father. He wanted to become a policeman some day. And so he did.

The other young man wanted to join a gang. He wanted to be the leader of the gang. He too came from a good but poor family, but he made poor decisions with his life. His father, a common laborer who worked very hard to feed his family, tried to keep him from joining the gang. His mother pleaded with him not to join. They said he was a good boy, but he was associating with the wrong kind of people. Those bad boys would only corrupt him. At 12, just to prove his manhood, he stole a car. He wrecked it, was caught and served a few months in detention. At 13, he stole a gun. His first gun. At 14 he became brave enough to use his gun and he robbed a service station. He was caught and again was sentenced to a short stay in detention. He told his family he had changed. He said he was on the road to rehabilitation. They believed him. At 16 he got ahold of an assault rifle. He got it from a "friend." He traded a stolen video camera for it. At 17, he was dealing drugs and shaking down anyone in his pathway.

One dark night, the two young men met. The second young man, now the leader of a gang, had just shot another young member of a rival gang. The first young man, now 24 and in his first year as a police officer, made the scene just in time to see his young rival fleeing. He ordered him to stop and give up his weapon. Instead, the young gang leader stopped, turned and fired. The policeman fell. The gang member approached and shot him again, until he was dead.

One wore blue and one wore black. Both were poor. One decided to uphold the law and protect the public, the other, to become an outlaw. Both had guns. One issued, one no doubt stolen. One tried to stop a murder. One murdered. One wants mercy, the other was once merciful. One's parents want him to be saved. The other's parents want justice. The jury said guilty - put the young man to death. The young man said he did not get a fair trial. He continued to be more concerned about himself than anyone or anything else.

The judge contrasted the two lives. He said it wasn't the parent's fault. It wasn't societies fault. It wasn't the gun's fault. It wasn't the other gang member's fault. It was clearly the young man's fault. He should and now must take responsibility for his own actions. The judge formally sentenced him to death.

Could the young man be saved? Could he be rehabilitated? He says he can. He says he already is. I don't believe him, but it's so sad to see a young life end. "Dead man walking" is so appropriate. He could be 35 or 40 before he dies. There are thugs and then there are thugs. Can you be hardened at 17? Perhaps. I struggle with this whole issue, then I see guys like O.J. get away. If anyone deserves to die, it's him. I'll bet most people feel like me. If I were asked to vote straight up or down on the death penalty, I'd say yes. If I'm given extenuating circumstances, I suddenly am on the fence. Again, no answers. God help us. Peace to all. Jim

Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Terry K
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 02:37 AM

BK - I can't believe how ignored you have been - your 12.38 posting on the 24th says so much of the reality of crime.

I'm another to add to the minority here, I have more going for the victims of crime than for the perpetrators -mainly because the perpetrators get to CHOOSE whether to be involved in crime or not, whereas the victims have their rights of choice taken away from them by the criminals.

So I'd ask everyone to transcend the apple pie and the family Bible and get real.

Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 06:18 AM

hey Doug, you mean like when Reagan invaded Granada to take our minds off Iran-Contre? or when George invaded Panama to take our minds off the resession?

Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 07:36 AM

Or Clinton bombing a factory that made medicines in Sudan to take our mind of Monica? There are a lot of murderers around that never get brought to trial.

Things that seem impossible and unrealistic in one part of the world and one part of history are just normal in some other places and times. Not having policemen on the streets with guns would seem like a crazy dream in some places and times. Not having prisons that make people worse seems like a crazy dream in some places and times. There are places and times where murder is a routine activity, and places and times where it is a rare and terrible occurrence.

It's too easy to think that the way it is in our place and our time is how it's always got to be.

And having executions only happens in a relatively few countries, and most of them are not very nice places (the exception on the whole being the USA.) The rest of the world gets along pretty well without them. Honest.

Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: InOBU
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 08:34 AM

Well, as I don't think many are going to take my advice and read the Fatal Shore, in responce to Jim's excellent post, and those who speak of choice, here is the point many social science scholars take from the book. Rehabilitation does not occure on an individual level often, it takes a society dedicated to fairness, which we are far from in America these days.
The Austrailian Colony was set up as a responce to the social instability caused by exicuting large numbers of excess population, put off the land because of the move from tenant farming, labour intesive, to industrialism, labour efficent - so large numbers of displaced former farmers where unable to find a place in society and pressed to steel, and were hanged for the price of a pig. It was believed that, after loosing the American colonies, England could turn a profit in Australia, they could not. It was hard to get into the interior and as a result, work camps became death camps, as the colonies could not sustain themselves, and shortly that was OK with Britain, better to kill the convicts slowly away from the eyes of family and friends. The death camps did little to lower the crime rate in England, and the convicts were so pressed that they resorted to canabalism often, in the camps. Then the interior of Australia was opened and the convicts were needed as farmers, with in the same generation the same convicts who were so dehumanised as to become canabals became judges police officers and politicians. The need for labourers created immagration from England and the crime rate droped. Now at the same time, why did England loose the American colonies, well, the rich planters, like Hamilton, were not alowed to industrialise, so they indulged in the drug deeling of their day, selling rum and whiskey, to create an ecconomy they could control, not unlike Nicky Barnes selling Heroin, and in order to mainstream that ecconomy, they rebelled, however, when the contenental army attempted to get an even shake in the new ecconomy, Shay's Rebellion, they were hanged by the aristocrates who rebelled to legalise their crimes. So it is not about complete poverty, it is about equal opportunity. Washington, Jefferson, Henry, slave owners and aristocrates spoke of the SLAVERY of English rule, as they could not compete equally with a rather inlightened government for its day. So if they could not be expected to behave, how can we hope for good behaveior from those in the US with such limits on opportunities that exist among the victems of innner city public schooling in the US. Lets stop concentrating on killing to keep people in line and democratize our ecconomy. that is it in a all too short nutshell
Larry

Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 08:58 AM

Remember the two children under the cloak of the Ghost of Christmas, present? They were, I believe, Poverty and Ignorance. Those two birds are the main culprits. Poverty breeds crime breeds poverty etc. The cure? Equal opportunity...simple, right? not as long as human nature makes some of us greedy enough to want it all at the expense of all others. Their motto? "Pull up the ladder, I'm aboard."

Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Mbo
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 09:21 AM

"They are your children Scrooge, Ignorance and Want....they are hidden now, but still they live...."

--Mbo

Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 10:34 AM

I stand corrected, thanks Mbo

Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: DougR
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 01:54 PM

McGrath of Harlow's comment about Clinton and the medicine factory zipped on by without further comment, didn't it? Kendall, was anybody injured or killed in that fiasco? I suppose it was justified though. Folks did get their minds off Monicagate for a day or two.

DougR

Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 02:33 PM

And when the Actor bombed Kadhaffys little child? Not a lot of heros in DC eh?

Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: InOBU
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 05:05 PM

Kendall:
Great image. I always feel that moment and the movie or book "to Kill a Mockingbird" really have great meaning and should be seen often. As to himan nature, I have lived and worked with hunter gatherer communities and much of the greed with think of as human nature is just the poor upbringing of capitalist culture. People don't suck by nature.
Larry

Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Jed at Work
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 05:45 PM

The basic fallacy of Marx is his belief that humans are basically good and that some external evil leads them astray. In truth people are people; some will give you the shirt off their back, while others will kill you for your sneakers. And worse then that, we are inconsisten - the same individuals who are capable of noble selfless even heroic deeds are also capable of doing evil.

Capitalism does not create greed and other human failings. The short comings are there, it is a truely worthwhile calling to try to rise above those shortcomings - and I find it has been a lifetime task.

Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 07:44 PM

..."Nature, Mr. Allnut, is what we are put on earth to rise above." Rose..African Queen.

Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: JedMarum
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 12:01 AM

somethin' like that.

Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 05:46 AM

"Capitalism does not create greed and other human failings." No, but it treats them as resources to be encouraged and exploited. If we stopped being greeedy and envious and trying to do each other down the system who be rocked to its foundations.

Of course it isn't just capitalism, which is really just a system of creative accountancy. The only three countries which execute more of it scitizens than the USA - Iran, China and Saudi Arabia - aren't exactly conventionally capitalist.

But a society which sets out to try to make people obsessed with thinking they need things they don't have, and that they are individually failures in life if they don't get a march ahead of their neighbours is bound to involve a heavy cost in human suffering. And the main victims are the poor and the powerless, both sides of the law.

Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 06:41 AM

Just had a network crash so I hope you don't get this twice. The subject of this thread is desperately serious but does lend itself to what I suppose is literally gallows humour. One aspect is the pandering to the press ghouls by publishing details of "last meal" requests. I can't help but wonder why sometimes they contain diet cola, decaff, lowfat spread, low tar cigs etc.
RtS (who's seen too many miscarriages of justice over the last 50-odd years to be comfortable with an ultimate sanction that can't be reversed)

Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: DougR
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 12:28 AM

I just heard on the evening news that Texas has a new "victim" in the wings. I can't remember his name but he was found guilty of murdering his girl friend, and her two sons. He was found guilty and sentenced to die. He swears he is innocent, of course,even though he was found with the blood of all three victims on his clothes. Texas is going to execute him if he is not rescued pretty quickly.

Get with it Kendall et all, I'm sure you can find a reason to turn him loose! He reportedly was drunk when he confessed to doing it, so a case might be made for extenuating circumstances, or something.

He may have had abusive parents, a poor school or Sunday school teacher, a history of drug or alcohol abuse, or questionable genes that forced him to do it of course.

Anyway, this gives the Liberals another shot at the Republican candidate which should make some folks mighty happy, and more fodder for Bush bashing.

DougR

Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Terry K
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 12:51 AM

I'll be first to volunteer to turn him loose - just as soon as he brings his girlfriend and her two sons back to life.

Terry

Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 01:08 AM

I posted once to this, and have not read it since, including now, but if you want to continue discussing it, there needs to be a Part II, which I am not starting because I am not really in on the discussion. This is too long for a lot of peoples' servers. Thank you, commercial break over.