BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 04 - 10:29 AM

No, beardedbruce, your argument is only valid for 'many times over'..., not ONE act of murder.

You're trying to change the goalposts

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 May 04 - 10:34 AM

" If ANYONE in uniform is a babykiller, then the anti-war folks are guilty of murder many times over. I will consider their arguements that they just wanted the poor cambodians to enjoy the country air."


SRS: Wrong- see my statement.

Guest: you are correct, I have to find multiple murders. Are you comfortable that I will not?

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 04 - 10:36 AM

Beardedbruce,

If you think any here condone any acts of murder, mass murder or otherwise of any group around the Globe then you are an idiot.

Cambodia suffered, but it suffered 25 years ago, what good will your logic games do now, no matter how clever they may make you feel. The evnts in Irag are ongoing maybe you could direct your energies where they may actually do some good and save lives, or are "they" the wrong ethnic group for you.

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: Bill D
Date: 25 May 04 - 10:42 AM

" If ANYONE in uniform is guilty of being a baby-killer, just by being in uniform, since some people in uniform were baby killers ( and prosecuted for it), then if I show that some members of the anti-war group were murderers, I can claim that they all are."

sorry, bruce...logical fallacy. equivocation on the term "anyone" (all members of the category vs. any SINGLE member of the category)..and the terms 'people in uniform' and 'members of the anti-war group' are not equivalent. (fallacy of the divided middle, I believe)

dangerous place, this Mudcat....*grin*...you gotta be REAL careful.

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 May 04 - 10:42 AM

"
From: beardedbruce - PM
Date: 19 May 04 - 08:08 PM

We SHOULD have gone in when he started to gas the Kurds- but the UN would not have stood for that. Just like they withdrew their forces when confronted by the situation in Rwanda.

......

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: Jim McCallan - PM
Date: 19 May 04 - 08:13 PM

Why didn't the US not do the Rwanda gig on their own, then?

Jim

........

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: beardedbruce - PM
Date: 19 May 04 - 08:15 PM

WE SHOULD HAVE! Why don't you ask that of the administration in power at the time? I would like to know the answer, as well. The anti-war folks in the US can take credit for 2 million dead Cambodians, but who gets the credit for 800,000 dead Rwandans? "

THIS was my original comment.... Maube you should learn to read, as I stated earlier.

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: GUEST,Not 10.36 AM Guest
Date: 25 May 04 - 10:45 AM

"Are you comfortable that I will not?"

I'm afraid it will have to be proven. It was a statement said and repeated, in all confidence, as if to qualify an argument.

Something the Bush Administration has a certain propensity for.

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 04 - 10:49 AM

Yes, beardedbruce, but the anti-war folks in the US can't take credit for 2 million dead Cambodians.

I am comfortable that you cannot prove this

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 04 - 10:50 AM

Keep it up beardedone, every minute spent here is a minute away from the poems, thank god!

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 04 - 10:52 AM

Here's a straw....., grasp it...... quick.., quick..., quick

(too late!)

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 May 04 - 10:53 AM

Bill:



logical fallacy. equivocation on the term "anyone" (all members of the category vs. any SINGLE member of the category).."

I know this is a logical fallacy- please see my "IF". I was commenting on the "fact" that some of us were accused of being baby-killers, quite forcefully, during the war because we were in uniform. I was in CAP, doing SAR in the DC area- no matter- I was a baby killer. But no-one working to end the war had any responsibility for the actions that were attributable to the US withdrawing, even thought they ( those working to end the war) caused that withdrawal.



and the terms 'people in uniform' and 'members of the anti-war group' are not equivalent. (fallacy of the divided middle, I believe)

I am not sure I understand this point- If there exists class of those in uniform, why can there not exist a class of those who are anti-war? How would you suggest I had worded it to include those people who were active in the anti-war demonstrations?

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 04 - 10:55 AM

Ahem.. there's a little question of 2 million dead Cambodians?

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 May 04 - 10:57 AM

Guest:

So, you claim that the anti-war movement had no effect on the US, and did not cause the US government to withhdraw unilateraly from SE Asia????????????

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 04 - 10:58 AM

Given beardedbruces facility with words, you would think his poems wouldn't stink so bad?

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:02 AM

So bearded one, its better to carry on with a going nowhere war, also causing untold numbers of dead and widespread destruction than to try and halt it? Hitler took that path as well, which gave us the scenic ruins of Europe for all to enjoy.

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:03 AM

beardedbruce: 25 May 04 - 10:57 AM
"So, you claim that the anti-war movement had no effect on the US, and did not cause the US government to withhdraw unilateraly from SE Asia???????????? "

Nope.

You (on the other hand), attribute 2 million dead to it

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:05 AM

Bush apparently spent much of his time last night again repeating his mantra that Iraq and Sept. 11 are one and the same. I predict that history will have a recording of his voice under the button one pushes to hear an example of the voice of evil. His argument is as fallacious as bruce's.

Bruce, the argument is as idiotic when you repeat it down here in the thread as when you first posted it. Who gets credit for 800,000 dead Rwandans? The Rwandans get that credit. Who gets credit for 2 million dead Cambodians? The Cambodians. You're taking unrelated events and trying to push them together as if they are cause and effect. What you're practicing isn't "Logic," it's illogic. It goes far beyond the "fuzzy" category to what you're trying to pull off. Take some time off. Do some reading. Here. and here and here are a whole bunch of places you can go look.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:06 AM

You were telling fibs, beardedbruce.

Weren't you?

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:08 AM

Better a few fibs than his poems, I read one once.

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:09 AM

So, if/when we withdraw, and the various factions in Iraq slaughter one another, you will say that the US had no responsibility for the massacre? Or does your "logic" only apply to the other side of the political spectrum?

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:12 AM

Guest:

By attacking my poetry rather than my statements, you have conceded that you think the statements are correct. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: Bill D
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:15 AM

bruce...both 'people in uniform' and 'anti-war folks' are indeed classes, they are just not logically identical classes, since membership in the classes are based on different principles and definitions. It is easier to imagine if you create a class called "people wearing red hats"...some of whom may be murderers, but not by virute of their wearing red hats. To be the middle term in a syllogism, the terms should be identical. (Straining to wrap my head around this...it has been too many years since I was expected to get it right for a grade.)

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:16 AM

After they have their "free" elections, what if they do ask the coaltition forces to leave, what then.

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:19 AM

Afraid not beardedone, just that your poems are as odious as your statements. Might as well cover them both at the same time to save bandwidth.

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: Bill D
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:19 AM

bruce...you will note that those who can't deal with logic usually abuse it anonymously with ad hominem attacks....but you figgered that out already...

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:21 AM

Bill, IF the class of those in uniform were all baby-killers because some of the memebers of that class had killed babies THEN the class of those who were active in anti-war activities ....

Guest: We leave, and the world gets to watch the slaughter... Just like you seem to want.

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:21 AM

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:29 AM

Nope. I would say if you ask the question "who's responsible for the loss of 10,000+ Iraqi lives and almost 1000 U.S. and allied lives" I'd have to answer George W. Bush. And the idiotic congress that let themselves be swept away by fear when they voted for this war. Not fear of Saddam, but fear of being labled anti-American cowards by Rove and Cheney and Bush (and as they would portray it, Americans in general) at such a time of pain. At a time when we should have paused and taken a careful and measured look at what was going on in the world, Bush took advantage of the injury to the American psyche to push his agenda forward, and everyone was treading so carefully HERE that they ignored their common sense and just let him have his way. More fools them. Now the U.S. does have this blood on it's hands, for no good reason. But it has nothing to do with 9-11, with Rwanda, with Cambodia, or with anything other than the ego of the heir of Bush Sr. and Ronald Reagan, George Walker Bush. As he works through his feelings of inadequacy for having been a loser and a poor student and always needing a boost from Daddy and the family name he's out to finish what his daddy started in Iraq (and he doesn't buy the logic that his father stopped when he should have if he was going to go there at all) and Reagan's fiscal "let your friends get richer" policies. He's combining the two into the most atrocious excuse for an appointment to the presidency that I've ever seen.

Oh, wait! I forgot Afghanistan! How silly of me! And they had nothing to do with it, either. Bush got a two-fer there, blew up two Moslem countries for the price of one atrocity on American soil. No wonder your thinking skills are messed up, brucie. You've been practicing Dubya's form of "logic."

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:30 AM

2 million Cambodians, bruce.....???????????????

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:32 AM

And the daily death tolls we are presented with currently are so much better because? You would rather it all carries on than take a chance that they can govern themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:56 AM

"The Killing Fields."

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:05 PM

Good movie

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: ToulouseCruise
Date: 25 May 04 - 01:02 PM

*sigh*

I liked this thread back when we didn't know what it was 24 hrs since... can we start guessing again?

Brian.

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: sledge
Date: 25 May 04 - 01:32 PM

Kiefer Sutherlands has saved the day again, good job he's around.

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: dianavan
Date: 26 May 04 - 01:09 AM

beardedbruce - So why is it the U.S. didn't go it alone in Rwanda?

I also want to know this (since you are so good with statistices):

What do you think the number killed by Saddam + the number that might possibly be killed if the U.S. withdraws might total?

Add to that the loss of American freedoms + a deeply divided U.S. + the cost of the war, + loss of American credibility in the international community.

Who are the losers?

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 May 04 - 10:40 AM

dianavan:

"beardedbruce - So why is it the U.S. didn't go it alone in Rwanda?"

THAT is the question I was asking.

"I also want to know this (since you are so good with statistices):

What do you think the number killed by Saddam + the number that might possibly be killed if the U.S. withdraws might total? "

too many

Add to that the loss of American freedoms + a deeply divided U.S. + the cost of the war, + loss of American credibility in the international community.

Who are the losers? "

You did forget the number killed by all the WMD of Iraq's stockpile that may be used in the future.....

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: Amos
Date: 26 May 04 - 11:12 AM

Beardedbruce:

The WMDs of Iraq's stockpile...huh???

Your political insight is rivalled only by the depth of your poetry, I am afraid.

A

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 May 04 - 11:15 AM

try reading the entire post.

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 May 04 - 11:16 AM

Hard to believe that Saddam was telling the truth and Chalabi was lying, beardedbruce? You're still buying Dubya's lie about weapons of mass destruction? It's the U.S. with the weapons of mass destuction.

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 May 04 - 11:18 AM

Here's more posted to another thread but works here as well.

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: Amos
Date: 26 May 04 - 11:21 AM

Well, I did try, Bruce, but it diid not make much sense to me.,

A

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 26 May 04 - 12:31 PM

"beardedbruce - So why is it the U.S. didn't go it alone in Rwanda?"
THAT is the question I was asking."

Correction, beardedbruce. That is the question I was asking, and you still haven't answered it yet.
I can imagine the reason, though..., as I'm sure you can, as well: 'Who needs the Rwandans?'
Sort of like, 'Who needs the Kurds?', when Saddam was coming down heavy on them in his halcyon years, as to why we didn't invade him 'for killing his own people', then.

Hypocrisy, I think the word is called, beardedbruce, and it normally swings the balance of whether or not we give a damn about other peoples' situations, if they have something worthwhile to offer us in return.
The question should then have been: "What do the Rwandan's have to offer us?"

C'est la vie in the big wide world, beardedbruce, and for the Bush Administration to say that they actually care about 'Saddam's own people' (like they're doing now for instance), is another little bit of the same pretzel logic at work.
Like this, for instance:
"...the number killed by all the WMD of Iraq's stockpile that may be used in the future."

Why not add to that the number killed because some butterfly in China flapped it's wings?

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 May 04 - 12:42 PM

As I have said:

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: Jim McCallan - PM
Date: 19 May 04 - 08:13 PM

Why didn't the US not do the Rwanda gig on their own, then?

Jim

........

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: beardedbruce - PM
Date: 19 May 04 - 08:15 PM

WE SHOULD HAVE! Why don't you ask that of the administration in power at the time? I would like to know the answer, as well. The anti-war folks in the US can take credit for 2 million dead Cambodians, but who gets the credit for 800,000 dead Rwandans? "

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 May 04 - 12:59 PM

And my question was why the anti-war movement helped kill 2 million Cambodians: YOU have not answered that.

Do I believe they intended to? NO.

But they MUST bear the consequences of their actions, just as the US must bear the consequences of the attack on Iraq. I do not believe that the present administration intened was has happened- so you think they should not bear responsibility?

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 26 May 04 - 01:05 PM

But beardedbruce....., you haven't said anything. You said The US should have. You forgot to mention why they didn't.

We have already put to bed the notion that the 'anti-war folks' can take the 'credit' for 2 million dead Cambodians. Are you sugessting that they can also take the 'credit' for 800,000 dead Rwandans?

Did you lobby your Congressperson at the time, that he/she demands the US Administration to invade Rwanda?

Because if you didn't, you could quite rightly claim a couple of Rwandan lives, for yourself.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 26 May 04 - 01:07 PM

Any other dead people you would like us to take 'credit' for?

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 May 04 - 01:11 PM

Well, there are more than enough for everybody.

I had agreed that your question was a good one ( about the US not going into Rwanda) YOU chose to make ME responsible for an answer, after I stated I wanted the same answer you did.

"We have already put to bed the notion that the 'anti-war folks' can take the 'credit' for 2 million dead Cambodians. Are you sugessting that they can also take the 'credit' for 800,000 dead Rwandans?"

Hardly- YOU have ignored it, and never answered. If you do not chose to accept my arguement, sobeit, but do not think because YOU say something that I HAVE to agree YOU are right. It does not work that way- you have to persuade me, as I would have to persuade you.

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 26 May 04 - 01:18 PM

You were the one that claimed that the anti-war 'folks' were responsible for 2 000 000 dead Cambodians. Your 'argument' has to be proved for it to be accepted, I'm afraid.

That's the way it works...

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 May 04 - 01:33 PM

But your arguements vice Iraq need only be stated to be accepted? Hardly fair.

AGAIN:
1. The anti-war folks influenced the US to withdraw from SE Asia.
2. When we withdrew, the Pol Pot regieme was able to take over Cambodia.
3. The Pol Pot regieme killed off 2 million of their people.
4. THEREFORE, the antoi-war people bear some responsibility.

Or will you say that the Bush Admin will have no responsibility for what happens in Iraq after we leave??? You can't have it both ways: Either you take the credit for 2 million dead Cambodians, and blame Bush for the dead Iraqis, or you cannot blame Bush for what happens after we leave.

THAT is the way it works.

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 26 May 04 - 01:37 PM

"Either you take the credit for 2 million dead Cambodians, and blame Bush for the dead Iraqis, or you cannot blame Bush for what happens after we leave"

No, beardedbruce. That is you having it both ways. Your 'ergo' in point 4 is not proven.

Prove it please

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 26 May 04 - 01:46 PM

BB's item 4 is an example of the Post Hoc Fallacy