Law prevents carol singing

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 05:08 PM

I finally did it 100

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 07:30 AM

The following from Hamish Birchall.

BBC Radio 4 Today continued its licensing and live music coverage with a piece this morning about Sheffield pub carols (transcript below).

Dr Ian Russell, an expert in this field, was interviewed by presenter Stephen Sackur. Dr Russell suggests that if local authorities 'take a liberal view', such events will escape red tape. He adds that 'many local authorities' are of the opinion that where a pub is singing 'the rules do not apply in the same way'. I hope he is right, but in the past at least many local authorities took a very different view of communal singing in pubs.

Dr Russell also says: 'The enthusiasm for the carols has never been stronger. There are more people from outside coming into the area. Cultural tourists, if you like, visiting the Sheffield region staying B&B for a short holiday, a week's holiday, and then travelling round several communities to sing the carols.'

This calls to mind the contrasting attitude of chief police officers, expressed publicly and to great effect during the Licensing Bill debates:

'Live music always acts as a magnet in whatever community it is being played. It brings people from outside that community and having no connection locally behave in a way that is inappropriate, criminal and disorderly.'
[letter to Tessa Jowell by Chris Fox, president of the Association of Chief Police Officers, 2nd July 2003]

The Government broadly endorsed this statement. It was read into the Hansard record by government minister Lord McIntosh as a supporting argument for rejecting an entertainment licensing exemption for small venues (House of Lords, 3rd July 2003).

I missed presenter Stephen Sackur's introduction to this piece. However, you will be able to catch it on the web later this morning: www.bbc.co.uk/radio4

Transcript of BBC Radio 4 Today - Pub carols and licensing - Friday 30 December 2005, 7.45-7.48am approx

[sound of communal singing 'While shepherds watch their flocks by night...' to an original tune]

Stephen Sackur: Now Sarah beside me is humming away. I'm sure many of you are at home as well. Familiar words there but perhaps not quite such a familiar tune. Dr Ian Russell is an expert on these kinds of 'village carols', that's what he calls them. Dr Russell, what is special about them?

Dr Ian Russell: Well, in the first place the carols are very much something that has come from the grass roots. They're carols that are considerably older than 'O little town of Bethlehem' or 'Once in royal David's city'. They, the carol we were listening to has its origins in the mid-18th century and erm came from the pen of somebody who was an artisan, a tradesman, not, not somebody who was educated in Oxford or Cambridge, or from a high church background.

Stephen Sackur: Um I don't know how to put this delicately, but you don't really need a good voice to sing some of these village carols.

Dr Ian Russell: No, they're not about elitism in any sense, they're about people joining in and participating, and anybody who wants to sing is welcome, it's not as...

Stephen Sackur: Usually in a pub, is that right?

Dr Ian Russell: Yes, many of the traditions are based in the pubs. There are several that are not, er some are itinerant traditions visiting and going round communities as many many places did in the past, and some, er a few are based also in chapels.

Stephen Sackur: Because of that, and because of what you were saying about the artisans who actually came up with some of these songs, is there no religious element at all, or is that in the background or what?

Dr Ian Russell: Well carols have always been betwixt and between. They've always been a bit liminal, a bit secular at the same time as being sacred. I'm sure for many people er the carols have a very strong spiritual content, and for some a very sacred content. But for others the carols are very much to do with the time of the year, very much to do with fellowship and community, and being together in warm convivial surroundings.

Stephen Sackur: Now we we captured that one in Ecclesfield. Are they thriving?

Dr Ian Russell: They are indeed thriving. I've been quite amazed this Christmas as I've gone round. Um, numbers are up in many of the communities. The enthusiasm for the carols has never been stronger. There are more people from outside coming into the area. Cultural tourists, if you like, visiting the Sheffield region staying B&B for a short holiday, a week's holiday, and then travelling round several communities to sing the carols.

Stephen Sackur: And quickly if I may there's some suggestion the new licensing laws might be a problem for these village singers because there is the idea that if you plan a carol concert in a pub you've got to get a Temporary Event Notice from the local council.

Dr Ian Russell: Yes, these these temp.. I'm not sure about the full legal situation, but the Temporary Event licence are not very expensive, I do know that. But apart from that, er many licensing authorities are of the opinion that where a pub is singing um we're not talking about a performance situation with an audience, and therefore er the same, the rules do not apply in the same way.

Stephen Sackur: They can escape the red tape?

Dr Ian Russell: I think that er if the local authority take a liberal view there should be no problems.

Stephen Sackur: Good to hear. All right, Dr Ian Russell thank you very much indeed.

Sarah Montague: The time 12 minutes to 8...

ENDS

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 07:47 AM

Dr Ian Russell: I think that er if the local authority take a liberal view there should be no problems.

Sheffield council also consider that this pub event could be Regulated Entertainment. To their credit (and because they have also permitted this event to continue unlicensed under the previous legislation) they have found a way around this. Some authorities (like mine in the following letter of 14 December 2005) are not quite so prepared to take a liberal view to enable threatened musical activities. In fact it almost appears that they are continuing to be as obstructive as possible towards live music and as prejudiced against musicians as they have been in the past.

I am sure that they would not see regular congregations of pool players in a pub as ever constituting Regulated Entertainment - even though the Licensing Act 2003 now requires them to view indoor sports like pool and darts equally as Regulated Entertainment.....Why are musicians singled-out and considered by them as requiring special treatment?


I write following our recent meting. Apologies for not writing earlier – I needed some time to gather views of colleagues to respond to your specific points. Please also consider this as a response to your letter dated 19th November to Councillor Ames.

You raised 4 points. I have reproduced these along with our response to each below:

Firstly Perhaps our Licensing Authority can be advised to formally hold and issue a policy that pub sessions are considered locally as incidental live music – if or until there is any test in the nations' court that may decide to the contrary and require a change?

As you know, we have a Statement of Licensing Policy and I understand that you have had input into this. We will review this policy every three years and will consult on this as a matter of course. If we discover there is a problem in the Borough regarding sessions and incidental music, we seek to provide clarification when we revise the policy (in December 2007).

As I said when we met, if we do this, we will need to provide a definition of a session. Whilst we will need to prepare specific wording, and consider any relevant case law, our definition would stress that session:

could take place without an audience;

would not be advertised;

would not be amplified; and

would be spontaneous and not organised to take place on a regular basis.

We would also stress that the musicians involved do not receive payment.

As I said in our meeting, it is important to emphasise that if musicians regularly congregate at a pub to play, this could constitute regulated entertainment and so the pub would be likely to apply for a licence to provide regulated entertainment as the Cove House Inn already has. I would emphasise that we have had very few issues regarding incidental music to date. I would also like to emphasise that we are not keen to apply 'one size fits all' rules and so we will continue our approach to consider each case on its individual facts wherever possible.
ENDS

Subject: RE: Law prevents carol singing
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 08:34 AM

However, having followed various of these threads, it seems that for a landlord to allow music in his/her premises, they need to tick certain boxes in their application and, providing the licence application goes through, then music is allowed and you can have your session if the landlord wishes it to happen.

First and with respect - I think it regretable that anyone who has followed these threads would still refer to 'box ticking' in this way. For in has been demonstrated that this was always just Government spin (but obviously very effective spin).

Apart from the costs of licensing entertainment alone - which has generally reduced and must be welcome (although the overall cost of licensing has increased) - the process for obtaining entertainment permission - triggered by the said box-ticking - is in fact pretty much the same as before.

And any public notice declaring a venue intends to provide any form of live music - tends to result in objections to this. A good way for premises to avoid any public objections and not hold-up their application for a Premises Licence - (even if they may welcome a session for example) is not to apply for live music permission.

For officers do tend to see these objections as an open invitation to interfere and impose judgement on unrelated matters that are really none of their concern. You will still also find that in response to a noise concern for example - no distinction will be made between amplified and non-amplified music - and the latter is often limited or prevented (on application and in advance of any noise actually being made) when there is no justification.

If they do not tick these boxes, surely there must be provision to apply for a variation in the licence conditions - with appropriate justification and safeguards - so that the situation can be remedied should they so wish to do?

Any variation involves the same process (and payment) as the original application - so how likely is it that any licensee who has not made application for entertainment permission in this first round - is now going to go through all of this again - just to enable you and I to make music together for our own enjoyment? Be it carols, traditional music or a cockney knees-up?

The question I would ask is what has the nature of what material is being sung - really got to do with licensing under the four main objects of the Act?