BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 12:06 PM

Pearls of wisdom from Tim the Twangler:
"well mate disagreeing isnt abusing. but calling names is."

"...middle class wazzocks start howling and whining..."
"...go and lick arse its what you are good at..."

Tosser.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 12:18 PM

...I should imagine John Leonard cares at least a reasonable amount about folk music since he was a professional singer back in the 70's, I remember meeting him on numerous occasions and he always struck me as a decent chap, used to play with John Squire and before that Mick Miller and was booked regularly at clubs and festivals, give over hounding the poor bugger he's probably doing his best within the restraints set by those wankers at the BBC!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST, JC
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 12:19 PM

Posts to this thread seem to be about 90% who think the awards are unfair, misguided or rigged and want to see them changed, and 10% who think they are unfair, misguided or rigged but don't care.

I don't think I've seen a single post on any message board by anyone who thinks the awards are good.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 12:22 PM

Nobody doubts his musical talents or history.

How many times is it worth saying this:

"I think almost everybody on this thread agrees that the song in question is not traditional and this includee Seth, who wrote it. Argument resolved?"

This is a Smooth Opps problem not a BBC problem

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 12:30 PM

Bruce, if Leonard is doing his best within a difficult BBC brief why doesn't he say so and explain why things are done the way they are?

The BBC are VERY strict about producers staying within their house rules. I've got family who've worked for the beeb, and they tell me the awards are completely at odds with BBC rules (as has been pointed out in detail before).

The BBC are not clamping down only because the people who wield the power don't realise (yet) how far out of kilter with the Producers Guidelines the awards actually are.

Some minor changes to the system could effect a huge improvement all round - and a lot of good ideas have been posted here and elsewhere which would cost almost nothing but remove all of the problems. But Leonard won't make changes because HE thinks everything's hunky dory, and he simply doesn't care what we think.

Smooth Operations silence tells us all we need to know.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,working musician
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 01:20 PM

"The greater truth is a handful of embittered performers who're outside the tent pissing in, when they'd sooner be inside the tent, are stirring up as much trouble as they can to try and discredit the awards."

You people just don't get it, do you? You don't believe that people might take a stance on principle, as opposed to embitterment or self-interest. You can't understand that musicians might be passionate about the music they play, and object to what should be a showcase for it - a really good performance and/or arrangement of a traditional song - allocated instead to a modern composition.

I only mentioned the musicians who have contributed to the thread because Troll the Twangler was trying to dismiss opinions contrary to his own as the work of "middle income middle englanders" and "lawyers". As Ruth Archer pointed out, many of the contributors here are not musicians, just music-lovers.

Twim, I'm still trying to make sense of your latest messages, but the final sentence of your 11.23 post is clear enough, and I hope it's a promise you'll keep.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,ChorleyBob
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 02:39 PM

"You people just don't get it, do you? You don't believe that people might take a stance on principle, as opposed to embitterment or self-interest"

It's called realism , GUESTworking musician.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,working musician
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 02:54 PM

It's called "ignorance", GUEST,ChorleyBob.

And "disregarding the actual arguments for the sake of your own petty prejudices".

And "offensive".

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 02:56 PM

You could e mail Tony Blair I have.
http://www.number-10.gov.uk/

Maybe if you are sure of the facts and enough of you mail in about it you will get an answer from the Beeb or the Company involved.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 04:35 PM

A new player has entered the game at the BBC someone called K.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio2/F2142825?thread=3737319

We are now accused of being trolls on our own threads.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 04:32 AM

k has plainly also not been reading the thread.

S/he says" "People still keep demanding answers to the questions that have already been answered."

Smooth Operations have given some answers:

They have explained (finally) that 'collation' does mean 'counting' and that White Hare did get enough votes in the trad category to be nominated. They have apologised for the picture of Leonard on their site and removed it. They have stated that the winners are not fixed to make the manufacture of the trophies easier. They have restated various procedures that we already knew from their website. They have claimed that they don't publish the names of the panel because it would put smaller, poorer, CD producers at a disadvantage.

But they have not done the following in response to questions I've seen here and on the BBC site.

They have not:

1) Given a geographic breakdown of the panel, justified the inclusion of vested interests, or given a breakdown of the percentage of vested interests to independant voters.

2) Shown any understanding of what the word Traditional means in terms of folk music, or why it's important that this definition is respected. They have not offered a sensible solution to the White Hare problem.

3) They have not answered questions about their guide list of CDs, nor responded to suggestions on how such a list could be made more open, resonable and fair.

They have not explained why they release a list of CDs rather than CDs AND gigs, when six of the awards are as much about live performance as recording; (Folk Singer of the Year, Best Duo, Best Group, Horizon Award, Musician of the Year and Best Live Act).

They have not explained why they told the panel that the list was only of (?all) CDs that contained tracks played on the MH show, when actually it is put together with 'advice' from various sources, including record companies (the big ones, we assume). Having had conflicting statements on this we really have no idea what the criteria are or what their thinking is.

They have not explained why CDs from smaller record companies do not appear on the list of CD releases, even though Leonard has claimed he want to include them in the process (for fairness) and even though they contain tracks that have been played on other BBC stations, and/or are by major touring artists.

4) They have not told us who polices the vote counting - if anyone.

5) They have not told us why the names of the panal cannot be made public, even though their stated justification has been discredited, and good reasons put forward for an open pubic system (such as large record companies actually having a major advante under the current system).

6) They have not given reasons why public voting cannot be introduced, or at least a much bigger, nation-wide panel recruited (a password-protected website-based system would be simple and fair).

7) They have not explained why the full list of nominations cannot be published. (If I had faith in the system I might be with k on this - but given the debacle I feel they owe us an explanation themselves).

8) They have not responded to suggestions that a new category cannot be introduced which could safely include songs like "Man of Constant Sorrow" and 'White Hare"

9) They have not responded to suggestions about other omissions/anomalies such as a cappella, best original tune, best trio etc.

10) They have shown no willingness whatsoever to accept their duty as a company whose salaries come from licence-fee payers to be open, responsive, honest, culturally aware etc.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Scrump
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 05:06 AM

Thanks for the detailed update GUEST.

As for the comments earlier, I agree it's a matter of principle that Seth Lakeman's song should not be considered for the Best traditional track award. It's nothing to do with the merits of the artist or the song, it's just that there's no way a non-traditional song should be nominated for the award.

Withdrawing the nomination is the only correct resolution to this issue. If the BBC/Smooth Ops don't do this, it destroys any credibility the whole of the awards have, so it's in their interests to resolve it properly, i.e. withdraw the nomination for White Hare from this award.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: oggie
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 05:39 PM

And how many angels can balance on the head of a pin? Yawn.

If you don't like it don't listen, go out and make some music, learn a new song!

Impotent rage is just that, impotent!

oggie

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 06:41 PM

oggieoggieoggie oy oy oy (in the words of the bard)

and that's exactly what those tolpuddle lads said isn't it?

just accept it when they shit on you because that's all you deserve.

yes?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 07:52 PM

For those of us that are required to fill out PRS forms, let us just put White Hare, trad. Seth Lakeman won't get a penny, after all, the forms that I have had to fill in will not make the distiction between his White Hare and the one that is trad.

For those who miss out on the best trad track in the BBC FA, why should we worry about their lost revenue either?

Distinctions? Who needs them?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST, whistleblower
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 03:27 AM

and who says our 'rage' is 'impotent'? we employ smooth operations. we own the bbc. in the longer term we call the shots. it is only a matter of time

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 04:14 AM

"Employ" SO? Fire them if you can.
"Own" the Beeb? Cancel their next fine/court case for non-payment of licence - if you can.
Too many degrees of separation in those relationships to have any meaning at all.

But why bust a gut to persuade the Beeb and SO to do "the right thing"? Why does it matter? Neither is an authority on what is "traditional", after all. Yes, the media have the power to influence the masses into believing Seth's song is "trad", just as they have the power to influence them into believing that the next "celebrity" they manufacture is worth watching in some so-called reality show.

But we were never in folk music for the sake of what the masses believe, were we?
So why bust a gut?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST, Ex BBC producer
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 05:19 AM

Of course we can't 'fire' the BBC or Smooth Operations in so many words, George.

But the ownership situation is a fact, which is widely trumpeted by the BBC.

That means we have leverage which we wouldn't have if the awards were organised by a commercial station - and the BBC does encourage us to use that leverage.

I take it from your post that you are not perhaps 100% comfortable with the situation - just think it's a lost cause?

Well, I don't think it's a lost cause at all. I think the awards are poorly concieved and wrecklessly executed - and I have done so since I first encountered them.

If I was making a programme of that profile, with that budget, I would expect to be attacked if I carried on as casually Smooth Operations have done.

I think we should insist on an improvement - not because of any dreams of winning a trophy, or reaching a mass market, purely because I think the awards should be a credit to folk music, and at the moment they are not.

There is only one thing that is stopping our only national showcase from being a credit to everyone: JL's attitude. I think we should be doing everything in our power to persuade him to change it.

If you were up for best song, wouldn't you want to be sure you'd won on your own merits?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 05:29 AM

I have been involved with the BBC on and off since the 60's..by first association was when I was involved with Charles Parker of Radio Ballads fame, so I have encountered the very highest standards of the organisation. I have had several things on "Pick of the Week", which I regard(smugly) as something akin to an award.
   So naturally, I am shocked and horrified by what I know has been going on in connection with these awards, and also disturbed at allegations of other thinngs that may or may not have been going on. I belive in the BBC, seriously. I believe in folk music, seriously. So I think it is entirely right for people to demand improvements in the way the BBC organises(or rather outsources) its awards; and demand these imporovements now. Whether this will get people anywhere is, of course, another question. But there's no0 harm in trying.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST, Ex BBC Producer
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 06:34 AM

"there's no harm in trying."

Actually I think we have a DUTY to try.

John Leonard is to be congratulated for getting the awards commissioned in '99 (I know how damn hard that was to do, and what a major achievement).

For the first couple of years I was happy to applaud as loudly as everyone else.

But the world has moved on. Folk music is in already in a different place (partly thanks to the awards, in fairness), and it is going further down the road - and even picking up speed.

We are experiencing a surge in interest, which is excellent news, but if we're not to be criticised by future generations, we need to make sure we handle this surge responsibly.

Yes, we do need to take every opportunity to 'sell' traditional and traditionally-derived music to a wider market - partly for financial reasons and partly for cultural ones (specially English and Welsh) - but we need to do this in ways that we won't risk destroy the things which made the music what it is in the first place.

And in particular we need to repect the people who made and handed down the songs we now call tradtional - so that new-comers will begin to understand how the whole thing works.

Now. When the awards were set up the team faced a number of challenges. Their solutions to those challenges were compromises, and perhaps reasonable compromises at the time - but they were, and are, NOT reasonable compromises for the longer term.

But in spite of helpful and good suggestions from many sources over many years, there has been no change. At all.

Smooth Operations have rested on their laurels.

But those laurels are not really theirs to rest on. They belong to all of us who work with, play and love folk music.

Now if I could see ANY glimmer of hope that Leonard was at least listening I would be content.

But I don't. I see him thinking, we'll just sit tight. They'll soon get bored.

Every time someone comes on here of the BBC forum and says it we can't change anything and it doesn't matter anyway, he goes - 'yep'

And the chances of improvement dip again.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 06:44 AM

Hear hear. Very well said.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,Jenny Crawford
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 07:08 AM

There is some seriously flawed logic here driven, I suspect, by professional jealousy and a pretty poisonous campaign to discredit Smooth Ops. I am no defender of the Folk Awards or Smooth Ops --- I actually loathe the whole concept of Awards ceremonies and also hate the idea of a hierarchy in the folk scene with the hallowed krusby and co at its helm (yuk). The schmaltz and "class system" generated by the awards goes against everything I love about the folk scene.
But there's a real visciousness creeping into this thread and unless people are prepared to put their names to the posts, they mean abosultely nothing and its turning into a poison pen feast.
I also remember John Leonard from his days as a singer round the folk clubs in Nottingham and he always seemd a decent sort to me. It's gone beyond the White Hare (is it or isn't it?) debate and it now appears that him and his honchos are being castigated for being succesful and raising the profile of the music. - Jenny Crawford

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 07:21 AM

Not at all.

I think most applaud them for being successful. They are being castigated for refusing to answer some very pertinent questions - when they are required by their contract to answer questions.

That's a totally different thing.

We just want the awards to be be transparent and fair.

At the moment there is injustice even between the nominated acts (caused by the White Hare issue), and that's a symptom of either the weaknesses they built into the system or something more sinister.

We don't know which because they won't answer questions, but in either event the White Hare is proof that the awards don't work and need change.

They have brought this upon themselves.

If they changed tack and showed some willingness to respond I think most of us would be happy.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST, musician
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 07:36 AM

Musicians don't use their names here becuase Smooth Operations have power over our careers. Cowardly, yes, but some of us have kids to feed and bands to pay. It's not fair on them if we use our real names and get blacklisted.

It doesn't matter who is typing. There is no flawed logic. The awards system is full of bias. Fact. Given what you feel about awards in general, Jenny, is that a good thing?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 08:52 AM

Jenny Crawford. You are trying to turn this legitimate debate about the BBC into a slanging match by accusing people of "professional jealousy" and "poisonous" behaviour. Which people are you in fact accusing of this? And is "Jenny Crawford" actually your name? There are a lot of pseudonyms floating about. Not all musicians, incidentally, are posting anonymously in this discussion. I have noticed Ton Bliss, George Papavgeris and myself are using our actual names, and I expect there are others.
Another intriguing sideline: I believe it is still the case that John Leonard is still the only actual named individual who has stood up to claim that the White Hare is actually a traditional song. Even Seth Lakeman has back-tracked, or so I understand. It would be extremely interesting to know who voted for it, and what their relation to folk music was.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 05:12 PM

I noticed that the well-known traditional song "The White Hare" was played on the Mike Harding show tonight. The Seth Lakeman, version by the way, they dont seem to have played any other recordings of it yet. Perhaps we should request some of them?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 05:45 PM

I wonder is Seths' hair turning white with the stress resulting from the selection of his track?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 06:11 AM

I would like to re-state that I think most of us think Seth has a lot to contribute and we like his music, it is not about him or his music.

TWHINATS

Les

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 07:24 AM

I think Seth Lakeman has a lot to answer for, he must be well aware of the controversy, and there is no such thing as bad publicity, someone from PRS has already explained, the royalties are the same, authorship or ' trad arranged Lakeman '

Mike Harding played it last night, this is the start of the winning campaign.


eric

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Scrump
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 07:28 AM

Seconded Les - IMO Seth Lakeman is a talented lad and a superb entertainer with a great future. It's not his fault that the song in question was nominated for the wrong award. I have enjoyed seeing him and his band live on a few occasions and would certainly pay to see them again, any time.

So in asking for the song to be withdrawn from the nominations, I am not trying to belittle Seth or cast doubt on his ability - just on those responsible for this unsatisfactory situation, who seem unwilling or unable to appreciate the stupidity of their actions, or to rectify the problem they have caused.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: s&r
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 07:32 AM

Transparent competition, public voting, live performance....

from X factor to Folk Factor?

Now there's a thought

Stu

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 09:52 AM

Mike Harding played it last night, this is the start of the winning campaign.

I am reasonably sure you are wrong there. The results were decided in mid-December, John Leonard has said this, each winner gets an idividualised trophy and these have to be made.

I think you might be right in saying Seth has won. I think that is the heart of the problem.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,I think we should be told
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 11:05 AM

I wonder how smooth ops choose the cds it features in the review section of their s(h)ite at the BBC? Today they are plugging the reissue of <>. Are the cds on the list given out to the panel the same as those they review? If so, those featured are at an advantage over the many other which they can't be bothered to review, perhaps they should be withdrawn from next years Award list?

I think we should be told.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,I think we should be told
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 11:12 AM

What a strange format this board has, my message should have linked to the review of Greg Stevens and Crookfinger Jacks Begger Boy of the North. It's easy to enough to find, but strange that one of the people protesting so strongly here has an eligible album for the next round.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 01:12 PM

GUEST I think we should be told: I dont know quite what point you are making, but the entries   for the second round were decided a month or two ago, and the outright winners I believe were settled last week. I certainly have two records out this year that would have eligible to be included in several categories(along with at least a thousand others folk CDs that came out this year), but alas my humble offerings didn't trouble the voters' pencils. (Possibly their content, 100% traditional, were a bit inappropriate? Or perhaps they are rubbish?)
But they do make excellent Christmas presents, so get down to HMV. They are "The Beggar Boy of the North", Greg Stephens and Crookfinger Jack, Harbourtown HARCD051, and "A Trip to the Lakes", the Boat Band, Harbourtown Records HARCD047. Buy now while stocks last, only three shopping days to go.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 04:54 AM

You are labouring under a misapprehension there Greg, it's only traditional if John Leonard says so.

eric

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Scrump
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 05:01 AM

Well, may I be the first to offer my congratulations to Seth Lakeman for winning the "Best Traditional Track" award with "The White Hare". Well done, Seth! :-)

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: McMullen
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 06:42 AM

i dont like seth lakeman hes just well look at his music vidieo ANOYING!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 07:40 PM

Ah now I've realised what a previous post was about. My "Beggar Boy" CD is advertised on the Mike Harding/Radio 2 website. I didn't know that.
Great!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 07:27 PM

Its not just folk music....its Marks and Spencer folk music....!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 12:22 AM

so.. seth seems a nice enough bloke..

any chance he could speak up for him self here.??

i'd buy his previous CD that sounds a bit like led zep 3..

[when i find it cheap enough ]

but i just bought the 'contraversial' current CD with white bunny for the mrs xmas present
cuz it souns like its mixed more comercial chart sounding for girlies


[but me being crafty.. i got the limited edition first 'folkie' pressing with 2nd video cd..
still available on ebay at sensible prices..!!!!

ja.. punkfolkrocker pissed onj cider and so happy with modern folk CDs..

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 05:16 AM

any chance he could speak up for him self here.??

Why should he?

There was a letter from his management to Smooth Ops which was posted to the BBC F&A site:

"4/12/06

Seth Lakeman is extremely proud to have recently received nominations in various categories for the 2007 BBC Folk Awards and is grateful for the support he has been given over what has turned out to be a remarkable 18 months.

However, in response to recent queries about the source of the song, The White Hare, nominated in the Best Traditional Song category, Seth would like to explain where it comes from.

He adapted a tune he had heard from a local musician as a child and combined this with lyrics, which were based on a legend he grew up with and one which was also later recounted to him in a Cornish pub - the story of The White Hare.

As Seth adapted the tune and lyrics from a combination of what he believed were largely 'traditional' sources he thought it right to credit The White Hare, on his latest album, 'Freedom Fields', as 'trad/arr..', rather than suggest that it was completely 'original'.

If the BBC, voting panel and other experts involved believe that The White Hare does not fit the true definition of a 'traditional' song, then Seth agrees that it would be entirely appropriate for it to be withdrawn from the category in which it has been nominated."

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 05:20 AM

John Leonard's stance since then has been that the song classes as traditional even though it even fails to qualify under Smooth Ops entry conditions:

6. TRADITIONAL TRACK OF THE YEAR
The best performance of any traditional song or tune on CD released during the past 12 months. This is a category designed to recognise the work of people recording traditional material. It is to be a new recording of a traditional song, from any tradition.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 07:24 AM

Its not just traditional folk music....its Marks and Spencer traditional folk music....!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 07:38 AM

Funny organisation, the BBC. It uses the term traditional cooking, traditional Christmas carols, traditional architecture, traditional stories and traditional family customs(i have heard all of these phrases used today). And in every case they were used in exactly the way anyway would use them. Except of course John leonard, who unaccountably uses traditional to mean "recently made".
Pray God he doesnt get put in charge of those programmes where they decided about which gems of our architectural heritage are to be saved. They'd be be concentrating resources on the giant Sainsbury's storage depot shed down the road. It's certainly traditional, it's got walls,roof and doors.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 08:45 AM

In this case, greg. It (under Smooth Ops) has provided its own definition of tradtional for the purposes of the awards and since suggested different meanings and its (JL) "understanding" to try to make the White Hare fit the term "traditional", changing what they had said for nomination as well as defying anything I can imagine being considered (from SL management) "the true definition of a 'traditional' song"

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 01:21 PM

He adapted a tune he had heard from a local musician

Like I said earlier, no evidence whatsoever that this tune was (by any definition of the word) traditional. It may or may not have been.

"Old" does not equal "traditional".

Dave

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 06:37 PM

Lennon and McCartney were local musicians too - to Liverpool. I guess they they restricted themseleves to writing trad tunes to which they added their own words.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,punkfolrocker
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 03:04 AM

frankly.. me and the mrs dont give a folkin monkeys..!!!??

young boy seth do gurt good led zep 3 update music..


so if bbc Rad 2 folks are so thick they cant tell their trad

from their

trad arr'soles


f@ck 'em all for the corporate wa@nk @rseoles they all effin @re.!!!!!


we dont need 'em

who cares !!!???



rip it up and start again.. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 12:01 PM

Somebody seems to have had a shit Christmas. Didn't Santa bring you the toys you wanted then?