Is this a folk song?

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 04:00 AM

Once again a 'what is folk' thread rides off into the sunset without anything significant (or even new) being advanced and leaving behind a trail of recrimination and bad-feeling. It always seems to me that the subject is always approached on the somewhat strange premise that no definition of 'folk' and 'tradition' exist and that we always have to start from scratch in creating one. This is, of course, not the case; perfectly sound definitions have been in place for a long time; oceans of ink and rainforests of paper have been expended in dealing with the subject. It is hard not to notice that once again, those uncomfortable with the old definitions have singularly failed to come up with alternatives. As far as I am concerned, the definitions accepted by Cecil Sharp, Francis Child, Bertrand Bronson, Bert Lloyd, David Buchan, Vaughan Williams, Frank Kidson, Gavin Greig, George Gardiner, Lucy Broadwood, Anne Gilchrist, Ewan MacColl, Alan Lomax, Gordon Gerould.......... and all those who have had a part in forming my ideas, and those of many others, and brought us into the music in the first place by putting pen to paper on the subject over the last century, still work for me. They may be, (are) in need of fine-tuning, but it is nonsense to ignore them. Perhaps these epics could be approached by those who have problems with those definitions explaining what those problems are, and perhaps it should be borne in mind that nobody is 'telling' anybody what and what not to sing. In my experience terms like 'folk police', 'finger-in-ear', 'folk fascist' and 'purist' are usually to be found on the lips of those who appear to have no workable definitions of 'folk' and 'traditional' and are invariably directed at those of us who have.                           
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 05:33 AM

I suspect that we keep having these fruitless arguments because of the existence of a peculiar mindset which is now lodged deep in the heart of our culture. In this way of 'thinking' nothing much of any interest or relevance existed before the lifetime of the 'thinker' - hence it's necessary to keep on (and on and on and on) re-inventing the proverbial wheel. This also leads to the view that any transient notion that pops into the head of our 'thinking' protagonist MUST be of great relevance and must be acted upon. But, because these airy notions have no strong intellectual or theoretical basis, someone else must be persuaded to validate them. Unfortunately, the putative validators are 'experts' - who often HAVE studied what went before and ARE armed with definitions and theories - and are not easily persuaded. Hence these intransigent 'experts' have insults heaped upon their heads by the frustrated 'thinkers'. And, let's face it, in contemporary popular culture education, study and analysis are despised; 'experts' are 'nerds' who should know their place and take responsibilty for the airy notions of the wilfully ignorant.

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: s&r
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 06:00 AM

It all depends what sort of definition you use to define folk.
"A definition may either give the meaning that a term bears in general use (a descriptive definition), or that which the speaker intends to impose upon it for the purpose of his or her discourse (a stipulative definition). Stipulative definitions differ from descriptive definitions in that they prescribe a new meaning either to a term already in use or to a new term. A descriptive definition can be shown to be right or wrong by comparison to usage, while a stipulative definition cannot. A stipulative definition, however, may be more or less useful. A persuasive definition, named by C.L. Stevenson, is a form of stipulative definition which purports to describe the 'true' or 'commonly accepted' meaning of a term, while in reality stipulating an altered use, perhaps as an argument for some view, for example that some system of government is democratic. Stevenson also notes that some definitions are 'legal' or 'coercive', whose object is to create or alter rights, duties or crimes.[1]"

Quote from Wikipedia

Says it all

Stu

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: Morris-ey
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 06:44 AM

Well, there's 20 minutes of my life I won't get back....

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: Grimmy
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 07:38 AM

Are we discussing folk music here, or some esoteric branch of forensic science?

Frankly, I don't give a flying bab about definitions and I get rather suspicious about the motives of those who do. Imagine, joy of joys, that we came up with a definition with which everyone agreed - WHAT THEN?

In 100 years' time:

• If 'Little Musgrave and Lady Barnard' was to be heard at folk gatherings (and I believe it will), then I would be delighted.


• If songs by 50's/60's/modern-day singer/songwriters were to be heard at folk gatherings (and I believe they will), then I would be delighted.


• If 'We All Live in a Yellow Submarine' was still being sung on the back row of buses (and I believe it will), then I would be delighted.


• If 'The Birdie Song' was to be heard at folk gatherings (and I believe it won't), then I would be disappointed, but I wouldn't cut my throat over it either.

It won't be the 'experts' or the 'thinkers' or the 'scientists' who decide the future of this music we love - it will be the people (just as it's always been). That seems to worry some folks here. It doesn't worry me - I have every confidence in their good taste and judgement, both now and in 100 years' time. Even if their taste doesn't coincide with mine.

If some folks wish to become museum curators, with their 'Do not touch the exhibits' signs everywhere, then good luck to them - but I won't be stopping by.

Unfortunately I won't be around 100 years from now, so I'll say this now: I told you so!.

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 09:57 AM

Grimmy: I think you are thinking of museuems where they keep dinosaurs and Egyptian stuff where they have "do't touch the exhibits" signs. In the museums containinmg folk songs of the past, anyone can touch the exhibits any time they like. That's what they are for.When did anybody last try to stop you singing a folk song? It's never happened to me(OK, it has, many times, when the landlord's throwing out, but you know what I mean).

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: Grimmy
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 10:20 AM

Greg - if that's the only fault you can find in my post then I am more than content. However, remember that museums are not just places to keep old things in, they are also places to keep new things out.

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 12:58 PM

Grimmy,

Perhaps we don't need to be reminded of new things because, in this particular moment, they are all around us. Eventually, of course, the new things become old things and then we need to be reminded that they once existed.

I suspect though that, in your world, there no place for old things at all. But there wouldn't be much point in a museum full of new things, would there? So, in your world, there wouldn't be a place for museums ... and we would have to go on and on and on re-inventing the wheel!

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: Grimmy
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 01:18 PM

I suspect though that, in your world, there no place for old things at all

Nothing could be further from the truth, Shimrod (BTW I dig up old bottles, collect fossils and was a genealogist before my current job. On my desk right now, having arrived today, is a copy of 'Broadsides of the Industrial North' by Martha Vicinus).

I love old things, new things, and things yet to be. I care passionately about the old ballads and traditional songs and I will do all within my power to preserve them (though ultimately, as I have said, the people will decide), but I care equally passionately about new songs which, in turn, will become old. And so it goes on - as it always has.

Unfortunately, it strikes me that some people only start to care about songs when they (the songs) have become old - and that is sometimes too late. I care now - that's the difference.

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 06:30 PM

I can't find a lot to argue with there, Grimmy.

If I'm honest I prefer old songs because I find them more exciting and and stimulating to my imagination. On the other hand I find much of today's popular culture banal and stupid in the extreme (ie. 'dumbed down') and many new songs that I hear are not much better. Nevertheless, there are some good song writers around and I would be the first to applaud their achievements.

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 07:50 PM

It seems like this argument becomes intensified in England or Ireland because of the nature of the culture being more in touch with its roots than America, which has so many roots and diversity stemming from its citizen's immigration.

In England, Ewan and Peggy seemed to highlight this in their "folk club" where certain songs were not permitted. Here in the States, the only similar exclusionary musical attitude is in the area of bluegrass. In a way, you might say that the bluegrass contingent is in touch with a certain folk style that emanated from unaccompanied ballad singing to old time string band music. This exclusionary attitude prevails in jazz circles as well.

I've noticed that here in the States, Blues seems to be thought of as separate from American folk music which seems odd to me since it has such a strong African-American history.

The point of this is that without a historical and cultural context, folk music wouldn't exist.

That's the point of it. The stories it has to tell of the people who created it at one time in history and their feelings expressed for posterity.

This is something that is hard to emulate by current singer/songwriter standards. Although there are some great writers today who are conversant with a folk-style in their writing and composing, they can't have the history because they are not that old.
However, that said, I think, for example, that Jean Ritchie brings to her songs the historical and cultural perspective that reflects more of what a folk song is because of her association with her family and the traditional musical aspects that she inherited. John Jacob Niles, the same. Does this mean that they write "folk songs"? I'm not sure that they do, but I do believe that their material reflects a genuine understanding of what this cultural process is and their songs are closer to those traditions than the contemporary singer/songwriter who "has something to say".

Why make this distinction? Because there is something of value in a folk song that can't be measured by any other form of musical expression. It has to be appreciated in its own right for what it is and other good music shouldn't be banned or denegrated in any way.

Contemporary folklorists understand the difference between folklore and that which falls out of that category because it doesn't meet the criteria.

If we go down the road that anything is folklore, than maybe Hollywood is folklore. I don't think most of the Mudcatters would accept that.

The same with folk music.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 07 - 03:07 PM

I wonder when people will come to terms with the fact that Ewan and Peggy never prevented any form of song being performed at the Singers Club.
Speaking as an ex- Singers Club organiser, as with any club in existence, the songs that were performed by the residents there where those in line with the policy of the club (arrived at by an audience comittee) - i.e. traditional songs and contemporary songs created on traditional lines. That was a policy FOR THE RESIDENTS.
Singers from the floor sang what they chose to sing and if their performance impressed whoever was residenting that night, they were booked as guests there.
I know of no club organisers who encourage singers to perform material that is not in line with club policy.
If people feel that it is wrong for a club to have a policy, that is a different argument.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 05 Apr 07 - 05:39 PM

Jim,
you say "I know of no club organisers who encourage singers to perform material that is not in line with club policy."

Herga is such a club. Its reputation and the vast majority of its residents lean towards traditional, but we encourage everyone to sing whatever they like, and we enjoy some excellent jazz guitar and contemporary songs from Chris Flegg, the occasional contemporary duet from Moses and the Ref, other contemporary singer/songwriter stuff... And yet, when we want to put on our "best face", the club is unmistakably traditional, with the likes of Johnny Collins, George Clarke, Kitty Vernon, Mike Sparks, Graeme Knights, etc. I am a permanent aberration, in that respect, yet one the club encouraged and fostered and helped. Which is precisely the reason why "Friends like these" was written for those very folks I just mentioned: traddies, but welcoming everything.

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 02:55 AM

George,
I have attended Herga on several occasions (Royal Oak?) in the distant past and it was invariably to hear traditional (or traditional-type) performers - Kevin Mitchell springs to mind (and we brought Walter Pardon there to perform). This fact was, I am sure, due to our tastes in music; I do not doubt what you are saying (though your 'best face' comment does indicate a policy preference.
Personally, I believe the idea of setting up a club in the first place is to promote the music you like, and believe important enough to make an effort for - otherwise, why bother?
Over the years I have been in clubs where musical instruments were forbidden, that would not allow newly written songs to be performed or where, say, bawdy material was openly disapproved of (and on occasion, talked down). I have been in clubs with Ewan and Peggy where they have been asked not to sing political songs.
None of this was ever part of The Singers Club Policy - ever.
As far as I am concerned Ewan was a key figure in introducing me, and many like me to folk music- a fact that has dominated my life for over 40 years and will (I hope) continue to do so until I run out of puff.
I doubt if there would be many of us speaking to each other on forums like this if it hadn't been for Ewan, Bert, Lomax, and I believe the least we owe them is to recognise their contribution and, at least, get the facts straight and not continue to peddle the myths as reality!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 04:59 AM

Jim,
I agree about the debt owed to Ewan, Bert, Alan etc by you, me, and countless others. Also, for clarity, neither was I inferring with my statement about Herga anything with respect to the Singers Club.

You were lucky to have been part of that, and part of an earlier Herga too. I just wanted to point out Herga's openness to all styles of music today, despite its undoubted traditional origins.

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 01:50 PM

I think it was Shimrod wrote that he was fed up turning up to 'Folk Clubs' and not hearing a 'folk Song' all night.
I totally agree with that; it's why I (and thousands like me) stopped going to clubs - and thereby hangs the problem that 'anything goes clubs have yet to solve.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: BB
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 03:58 PM

Jim said, "I know of no club organisers who encourage singers to perform material that is not in line with club policy", which you seemed to refute, George, in talking about Herga. But Herga's policy is not necessarily the same as its residents' preferences. In fact, you say, "We encourage everyone to sing whatever they like", and that, surely, is stating the club's policy, so you are simply proving Jim's point.

By and large, we do the same wherever we are, but one has to accept that people like Jim and Shimrod may well be put off from attending such clubs. The scene is ending up with very few clubs catering for those who really only enjoy 'traditional' folk music, thus has to accept that it is losing some very valuable people completely, although hopefully it gains others who may discover the value of traditional music.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 04:39 AM

Hi Barbara,
I don't think I said "We encourage everyone to sing whatever they like",
If I did, that is not what I meant. I believe singers should choose for themselves what they sing; where they sing it and what they/we call it is a different question.
It's been my experience that club audiences for all types of 'folk club' have plummeted, not just for traditional song.
If club organisers don't run clubs to promote their own music - why do they run them - as a social amenity - maybe.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: BB
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 04:05 PM

Read what I said again, Jim. *George* said, "We encourage everyone to sing whatever they like". I was agreeing with what you said.

Personally, we run our club in order to encourage people to perform - what they perform really is up to them. But that's our club (which isn't a folk club although quite a lot of 'folk' material, including traditional, is performed there), and it was something that was called for in our village - it's not necessarily what we would be running if we were elsewhere. You can call that 'a social amenity' if you wish - it's also a darn good night out!

I think you're right, Jim, in saying that audiences generally are down for folk clubs, although not necessarily for folk music, and there are many reasons which may contribute to that - but I think that's drifting even further from the thread subject, so I'll not go there.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 03:34 AM

Whops - sorry Barbara.
Jim

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 03:37 AM

Whoops - that was meant to be whoops.
If I'm not careful I'll get another visit from the 'typo-fairy' who stalks this thread,
Jim

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: Scoville
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 12:25 PM

Question: Are y'all talking about British folk clubs, and, if so, what the heck are they all booking if everyone is complaining that there is no folk being performed?

The two venues I visit here that I think would roughly equate to "folk clubs" have been known to book the following: Paul Geremia, Battlefield Band, Old Crow Medicine Show, Slaid Cleaves, Nancy Griffith, Tom Paxton, Clandestine, Eliza Gilkyson, Sara Guthrie, Beppe Gambetta, Ian Tyson, etc. How do those stack up? (I'm asking as a point of reference. I don't necessarily consider all of these to be folk myself.)

I've noticed that here in the States, Blues seems to be thought of as separate from American folk music which seems odd to me since it has such a strong African-American history.

The reason for this is because they are both such huge genres that it would be an organizational and definitional nightmare. Blues is folk, and folk is sometimes blues, and both are roots of rock, country, zydeco, and a lot of other things. However, two groups that have as many subgenres as "white" folk and blues don't need to be combined into the Mother of All Music Genres. You'll note, though, that there is not a hard line dividing them and that they often travel parallel tracks.