Is it Ok to sing from a song book?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 11:51 AM

One of the things that surprised me, when I started going to folk clubs, singarounds and sessions again after a break of over 25 years, was seeing the use of song books and music stands. I just cannot recall them ever being used in the period when I first went to such clubs in the mid-60s. You just learned the stuff you wanted to do.

In my previous response to this thread, I said:

I would never use a word sheet in a performance, but I can understand if some people have genuine difficulty without one. What I dislike... is singers who just can't be arsed to learn the stuff, and sing from a folder of songs out of sheer laziness.

I still hold to that opinion, but I'm just curious as to why there's been such a change in custom and practice in these intervening years. When I played in a 1950s-style rock'n roll trio - for around 13 years - we had a repertoire of 150 or so songs, and never used music. We had a total list of numbers and organised the set list on the night from watching the reaction to what we played. You may think that 1950's rock'n roll tunes are trivial stuff compared with folk songs - but the Teds in the audience, young or old, would soon tell us if we got a song wrong!

So, what's changed in 25 years?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 11:59 AM

Tim - your experience seems to have occurred at that period when Ron (who lived until 1979) was not always able to appear with his cousin Bob as he had done for so many years, & Bob's son John was occasionally replacing him on gigs — hence perhaps his reliance on The Book. But Bob & Ron continued singing as a duo well after that - I distinctly remember long conversations with them both at intervals of the first Brighton Folk Festival in 1977. They certainly had the book with them then — I was allowed to hold it and turn the pages — it felt a bit like being lent the Koh-i-Noor diamond for a few minutes!

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: John Routledge
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 12:00 PM

In the olden days everyone learnt the songs and sang without "Books"

In those days one did not feel comfortable putting 50 peoples lives on hold for 5 minutes without at least 50x5 minutes effort to learn a song :0)

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,LTS on the sfoa
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 12:04 PM

"I still fail to understand why it should be regarded as too difficult to prepare two or three songs ready to be sung without the need for the words in front of you."

All too often I've spent months learning a new song, only to have someone just ahead of me in the singaround sing it, in which case I'd rather flick through my book for an appropriate one than sing the same song again, where I may not be so familiar with it if I've spent all my time practicing the others; or else I miss a turn which in big singarounds means not getting a go until the next session. In fact, it happened so often one year that I started to write my own thinking 'sing that one, you buggers!'

And as for the driving a car analogy - the Highway Code is updated frequently with new laws, by-lawas and recommendations - it should be refreshed and read several times, no matter how good driver you think you are and how many accidents you've seen.

LTS = whose crutches are both book and conductor shaped!

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 12:36 PM

So, what's changed in 25 years?

The policemen have definitely got younger.

I've only witnessed the last seven or eight years of this, but I think there's been a cumulative process of "amateurisation", helped along both by the decline in folk clubs and (paradoxically) by the more recent revival. Smaller audiences meant that professionals couldn't make a living out of folk, and the drop in the number of pro and semi-pro acts meant that audiences got even smaller. In the clubs that hung on, folkies who were playing to the same six people they played to last week stopped bothering to polish their act and start turning up with half-written songs on crib sheets, because they knew nobody would mind (like doing the shopping in your pyjamas). Then when there was an upturn MCs were only too pleased to welcome new acts, however unpolished, and audiences had lived with shambolic performances for so long that they'd stopped expecting anything else.

I'm a bit Jekyll-and-Hyde about songbooks myself. The nasty side of me says that if you haven't learnt the song you shouldn't be singing it - and if you can't learn songs, maybe singing in public isn't for you. But at this point Nice Pip chips in and points out that I've seen some superb performances given by people who had a sheet of paper or a notebook in front of them, and who presumably didn't actually have the song off by heart - so simply saying No Cribsheets would deprive us all of a lot of good singing.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Acorn4
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 12:47 PM

Are the "folk policemen" getting any younger though?

We share the similar experience as the last few posts in that we had about 15 years out of the clubs, and the use of folders was a new phenomenon which had developed while we were out of things.

On the other hand in the "old days", it seemed quite acceptable for guest artists to appear on stage totally pissed and in some cases scarcely able to sit on the stool. It almost seemed part of the image at times. Most guests these days seem to accept the necessity for a degree of professionalism and you don't have to b e a piss aso there are gains and losses.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Acorn4
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 12:50 PM

...sorry the end got mangled ..and you don't have to be a piss artist to be regarded as "cool" - so there are gains and losses.

Honestly, I haven't started drinking yet; my computer decided it needed to be doing something else while I was typing!

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 12:54 PM

LTYS, that's why in an earlier post I suggested also having a couple of songs in reserve, in case someone gets in ahead of you.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Dave Hunt
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 12:55 PM

Personally I have NEVER neede to use a book/wordsheet/cuecard or whatever when I'm singing. I have a repertoire of at least 160 songs which I can sing from memory and probably know a whole lot more that I don't actualy sing. Perhaps I'm just lucky in having a very good memory, but I always feel that anyone who uses the music hasn't really got to know the song well enough.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,Jon Dudley
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 01:02 PM

Ok chaps I wasn't going to get involved with this, but...

Thanks Jim for being so lenient with us! Thanks Mike for making a telling observation...and thanks Valmai for being the latest possible observer. The facts are these:

I was once quoted (accurately I'm afraid) as saying that being a member of The Copper Family was a bit like being a member of the royal family. Of course I didn't mean that literally, but what I did mean was that it does involve being the inheritor (although not strictly so in my own case) of a remarkable singing tradition. That doesn't necessarily imbue you with an innate sense of performance, although some family members have inherited that as well. It is an intensely precious gift from previous generations however, for which everyone feels a deep gratitude and need to keep the whole thing going. So although we are all 'blessed' with voices which remain roughly in tune we are not in any sense 'performers'...torch bearers might be a better description.

Bear with me I'm laboriously getting to my point...

The act of performance for non-performers varies, but can be absolutely terrifying at times. We are essentially non-performers. People ask us to sing and we do so willingly, sometimes in an almost evangelical way. We get a tremendous amount of fun and sense of family in doing it. The generations are stripped away and we are back with Bob, Ron, Jim, John, Brasser, 'Honest John' and the rest of the crew. The truth is that 'performance' doesn't come easily. We are not professionals, nor do we profess to be, but I hope that the sincerity of what we do is evident.

Now, at last to the point...

The book(s) serve very much as a sort of totem, a touchstone if you like...we have Brasser and Jim's original songbooks which they never used - "watcha want ter roit it down fer? every bugger knows th' words" as Brasser said. And in the midst of 'performance' when some of us is 'poopin' ourselves, the books are a steadying influence. Truth is, with enough Harveys bitter we do get unbelievably emotional about all this stuff and totally forget where we are in a song...the books come in again, although most of us will have difficulty focussing at this point. It's amazing how easily we go wrong even with the books - no ones looking at 'em.

As the Irishman, Brian George at the BBC said to Bob in the early '50s when he'd heard Bob was practising guitar..."I hope you're not going to tart those songs up, there's a million people out there who can do that but there's no other buggers on earth make the same racket as you lot".

We inherit a proud tradition. Let's hope we are living up to it...don't answer that!

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 01:25 PM

Thankou GUEST Jon Dudley, your comments are very poignant and meaningful.

After all; come on folks, we can't all be well-polished, super rehearsed, professional folk singers with a huge ability to memorise hundreds of songs.

The people in such a category are at the very peak of the iceberg, so what about all the rest?
The important thing here is that we are all bonded together by the same thing - our undying love of folk songs, folk people and the whole folk scene in general - whether that is in the U.K or U.S or anywhere else on the planet.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 03:59 PM

Thanks Jon for a wonderful insight into one of the most generously influential families in British folk song - we all owe you.

Regarding using written texts as an aide-memoire: Over thirty years ago we met and began recording a then middle-aged singer with a sizable repertoire of traditional songs, which he sang with great energy on request, never making a slip. Down the years his memory began to fade, so his son wrote out all his songs in a large exercise book, which he carried everywhere and began to rely on more and more. His singing began to lose its spontaneous flow and eventually, some time before his death, became a shadow of its former glory and painfully sad to listen to. While the book helped him remember the songs, it obviously got in the way of his singing them.
A number of singers we have recorded, when asked for songs they didn't know, have gone off to a neighbour and got the songs we had asked about, invariable by having them written down. When giving them to us they have sung them from the page, and as skilful singers as they were, decades later, they stick out like sore thumbs.

This thread is mainly made up of contributions of pros and antis for singing off the page. Perhaps it might have been more positive if it had dealt with how different singers get over the problem of remembering words. Nowadays I can remember things I learned thirty years ago with no difficulty, but find it very difficult to learn new songs.
Recently I was given a magnificent, somewhat long version of The Banks of Newfoundland which I would dearly like to add to my repertoire - HELLLLP
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: mg
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 05:10 PM

We need a decision tree with little triangles etc.

1. Are you setting up this group from scratch. Yes. Do whatever you like.
2. Are you coming into a group with a strong tradition of not using books and most people hate them. No. Use your own book but do not impose books on others or tell them the page numbers etc.
3. Have you been told the group hates them (not individual books but the whole group turning to them)? If yes, then no, do not use them. If group says they don't mind, it is their fault if they do not tell you the truth. Then yes. Use the books.
4. Are compromises possible? Yes. Perhaps one song circle a month can be totally out of books, or totally sans books. A room can be set aside at a camp totally favoring books. Workshops can be set up mg

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 05:16 PM

Don says: "... sometimes my mistakes DO become part of the arrangement!"

This is true. And therein can lie the problem. While some mistakes have wonderfully serendipitous results, I think more often than not the improvised lyric is inferior to the original -- at least if it was a superb lyric to start with.

As for whether one would/should drive a car with a book or printed sheet in front of him/her, hey, lots of drivers have GPS mounted on their dashboards for them to look at while driving -- along with the rest of the instrument panel. ; )

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 05:21 PM

Personally, I'd say that if you write a song and want it to be considered "folk", you should be prepared for it to undergo the folk process, for good or ill.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 05:22 PM

Oh, and, Soldier Boy, thanks for forgiving me.
Turns out I'm not crazy after all. (OK, maybe I am, but calling you "SongBob" doesn't prove it.)
There's a reason I had that other S (o?) B's name stuck in my mind: SongBob's post about sitting or standing

Genie

(Excuse the interruption, folks. Now back to your regularly scheduled food fight. *g*)

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 06:18 PM

Don did not say that his mistakes become a part of the arrangement. Bernard did with his tongue in cheek. Don said that it is hard to tell a professionals mistakes from the arrangement. Very different things. I have stood in an audience when Seamus Kennedy has blown a word or two and I'd bet I was the onliest person who noticed. Seamus's playing and singing on stage, (that is performing) is so good that it wouldn't be noticed except by someone who sings those songs.

If you were really reading my posts you'd notice a said "armatures" and not "amateurs."

I don't create new arrangements with my mistakes. If I make a mistake I make sure I don't repeat it next time.

Interestingly the songs I have the hardest time remembering are my own. And rather than use a sheet to ensure I sing them right, I don't sing them unless I know them.

Don

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Sugwash
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 07:08 PM

Bit of a groundhog day feel to this thread.

Is it OK to sing from a song book? Yes, it's OK, if you need to do so, do so. I'd urge you to try and learn songs to the point where the book is no longer necessary, but rather than you not singing, use the book.

I'm not saying that I like people singing from books/paper/lcd screens. I'm worried that what was always an amateur scene is becoming an amateurish scene. Folk fumbling about setting up music stands, the depressing sight of a table full of copy holders at a sing-around. But rather than those people not singing, I'll tolerate the books etc.

Personally I think that you have to learn the song to the extent that the written word is no longer needed to give a good performance of that song. Our songs are, for the most part, story based, try and visualise the story in your head and, I find, the song will lodge in your memory.

This is just my opinion of course, it isn't a mission statement, it isn't a knock at those who do use the written word an an aide memoir. I'll confess that, if a song doesn't have a strong narrative, I struggle to learn it. Stubborn persistence is my only recourse, it's the main reason that I don't sing many shanties, that and the fact that I've been to sea.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: mg
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 07:12 PM

Is it OK for me to go into a highly skilled quilting bee because I do like quilts, pretty colors, want to make new friends etc. But should I expect them to let me quilt on their quilts that they have been doing the same way for dozens of years? Or maybe have a separate quilt for those with less skill?

Should I expect to be able to go into a bike touring group with training wheels on my bike? They might be polite but they are probably going oh shit...

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 07:28 PM

"I'll tolerate the books etc."
If a has to 'tolerate' what a singer does, the question has to be asked, "why is he/she singing in public?".
mg just said it for me.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 08:09 PM

"Use what talent you possess: the woods would be very silent if no birds sang except those that sang best."
Henry van Dyke

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 09:01 PM

Wow, 'TheSnail', I do believe that you have just powerfully summed up and encapsulated every thing I have tried to put my finger on and express in this thread (including my previous 'iceberg' analogy).

That is a very powerful and succinct expression.

In fact it is more than that; it is pure poetry and could be the start of a a very good song to explain and diffuse the many different and diverse attitudes and conceptions about the theme of this thread.

God bless Henry van Dyke.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,Ripov(sober this time!
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 09:05 PM

What a lot of thoughts!
As someone who started in classical music, I learned to sing or play anything put in front of me, once through, and then perform it. But never having to memorise it.
Take the book away and all was forgotten.
Coming into folk music later in life, having to make out what notes others were playing (and they didn't all play the same notes), and then remember them, was tremendously difficult at first, and still can be a bit of a struggle. Being able to find the dots in books or on the net was a great help, but committing to memory very difficult.
Others can remember things heard once, but struggle to sing/play from music.
Surely there's room for all of us?
Re ossonflag's comment about actors, many radio shows were produced at short notice and the actors saw their parts for the first time as the show was broadcast. To be able to bring this off convincingly is a trade like any other.
The other big thing is, if we're making music in private then mistakes can be overlooked, but frequently we're in a pub (not many church halls with a bar!) so there are members of the (not very interested) public there. If our singing/playing is so bad or so repetitive, week after week, that the public cease to come in, then we will not be welcome in that establishment. Yes, we are there for our enjoyment, but that shouldn't be at the expense of theirs.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 10:06 PM

Seems to me there's a huge difference between those little books some of us put together lovingly over time, and can get possibly get cues from if necessary--and a manufactured folkie hymnal--which is in fact used as such--complete with copies handed out.   So all you in the UK, no matter what books anybody might use, are far better off than us in the US with Rise Up Singing--aka the Blue Book of Death (to singarounds).

There may be all sorts of crutches. But only one crutch is a deadly danger to a good session: RUS.

In fact a RUS session is far worse than a real hymn sing would be.   At least a real hymnbook often has harmonies which have been proven to work. And the leader would be likely to have an actual idea of how the melody goes--something you cannot assume with RUS.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 10:33 PM

Hi Ron,

I have found RUS to be a good book for lyrics but the chords are undependable or as dependable as the person who arranged that song.

I have been to RUS sing arounds. The club I belong to used to have them. I agree they can be deadly dull.

Don

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Janie
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 10:54 PM

Love that last post of your's, Soldier Boy.

I also like that the tone of this debate has remained civil and respectful, even when people are expressing strongly held and rigid opinions.

I recall that some one made a post yesterday or the day before to the effect that we are not necessarily comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges. I agree. When I read a similar but more rancorous thread a few years ago, at a time when I was just rediscovering the importance of singing to my well-being, and just beginning to develop enough confidence to be able to sing within the hearing range of others, I got so embarrassed and intimidated that I shut down again for awhile.

Several people have moderately noted the importance of being aware of context. I am more aware of context than I was several years ago.

It is clear our individual experiences with music and singing also influence what we are likely to assert is OK or not, as well as what the music and the act of expressing ourselves through music means.

I will occasionally sing a song at the Getaway that I know I can not do any kind of justice to, lyrics in hand, because it is a wonderful song that I have never heard anyone do or refer to and singing it may lead to some one coming up to me later and asking where I got it from so that they can learn it (and do a better job with it.) The Getaway is a venue where there are so many scholars of the assorted areas of folk music, many excellent professional and amateur performers and musicians, and also a very high tolerance for people who are none of the above but who love the music, and whose love of the music is valued. I've posted before on other threads about how empowering the experience of the Getaway has been to me.   I have also observed the improvement in the musicianship of others over time from the very positive and non-judgemental experiences offered at the Getaway and (presumably) song circles and sing arounds that occur under the auspices of FSGW.

What some few of you insist is proper would result in me, and many like me, never, ever risking sharing our voices except very quietly on a song with a big chorus. But without the experience of sharing my voice, I can not develop the confidence to sing around or in front of others.

Barry Finn (Damn, I miss him!) was one of the most encouraging and empowering people I have ever known to people who yearn to give voice to song. I remember reading his posts that 'Spaw copied to this thread. I also remember his praise and encouragement, and "well done" to me and others, and that was forthcoming whether or not we needed lyrics in front of us.

Music is not my life. It is not my only interest, or even my primary interest. But singing is essential to my well-being. I know that my presence and participation at the Getaway is valued, in spite of the fact that in the past few years, I have rarely had a chance to choose and extensively practice a couple of songs that I might want to share at the assorted workshops. I do not have the time or the inclination to practice, practice, practice so that anything I may feel inspired to sing in the late night, informal song circles is rendered as musically perfect as possible. What I have witnessed, however, in those late night song circles, is serious amateur or professional musicians encouraging very shy, nervous, unpracticed people to go ahead and sing a song when their turn comes up, and applauding th risk taking and affirming the willingness of people to share their voices, even when those voices or the renditions were less than perfect. In those song circles and workshops, and at the evening concerts, what was applauded was the willingness to risk exposing one's heart and desire to lift up the voice and share that voice. Granted, the Getaway is so rich in talented and accomplished musicians and singers, professional or not, that it is not diminished by those of us who are less than stellar performers, or do not have the time or exclusive interest to rehearse, rehearse, rehearse before singing a song in front of others.

I am recalling performing at a couple of Getaway concerts. The first I recall is singing with Allen C. He had written a beautiful song after a Mudcat gathering elsewhere, about the what it meant to be together and raise voices together, and then part, and asked me to sing harmony to it at a Getaway concert, and he signed us up to close out the concert. There was no way I was going to memorize the words in less than 4 hours, and we performed it with me holding and reading the lyrics as we sang. We had rehearsed as much as possible for me to get the harmony down. It went over very well. My harmonies were good, but not perfect at times, and I was obviously freguently referring to the lyrics. Our emotion and expressiveness were not harmed at all by that, and folks let us know after the concert that our performance was moving.

I remember another Getaway concert. My sister, Annie, (unlike me, she is an accomplished musician) had written a wonderful and funny song, "Oregon Inlet" that she brought with her. She, Dani and I performed the song at the concert. Dani and I both had the lyrics in hand and needed to read from them - no time to memorize the lengthy song - our rehearsal time focused on the harmonies. We brought down the house!

Related but not exactly on topic, I recently posted a link to some songs I recorded using garage band - furnace blowing, sound of trains or a car going by, the neighbor's dog barking included. It took 8 years for me to do so. I posted them in order to share more of myself than I have done before - to say, this is what I express about who I am musically. It was hard to do because what I posted is not about performance. I am not a performer. I am not a musician. I'm a lower middle class working mom who grew up with my grandfather singing hymns as he gardened, who grew up singing with my sisters and watching my Mom tap dance with a cane to albums of show tunes, and who went to parties and picnics where music just ended up happening, who had a swing in my backyard and spent summers and days after school with other kids in the neighborhood, swinging, and singing, together or trading songs, because it felt good, or felt right, and expressed something about who we were, who we are, or what we longed for. I grew up with the experience of singing as part of everyday life. The notion that singing is performance was introduced to me late. When I began to to think of singing as being about the ability to perform for the pleasure and/or evaluation of others, lacking confidence and self-esteem, I shut up. That was my loss. For those of you who are only interested in listening to those who have the time and inclination to absolutely memorize and polish their performance, I respectfully assert that at least occasionally, it is also your loss.

Jim, I understand and appreciate your posts regarding your experience documenting source singers. Please consider, however, the iatroginic effects of collecting and recording source singers.

I understand there is not room for me, and for the many like me, at all tables. I respectfully assert that there ought be room for us at some tables, and that the music of the people will no longer be the music of the people if those of us who are truly "just folks" are not welcomed at any table where good musicians also sit.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Melissa
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 11:09 PM

Janie, I hope that post is clipped and added to the next several threads on this topic.


This thread has had me thinking the last couple days.
I'm in the US and have never seen one of the dreaded Blue Books.
If there wasn't for books tending to waste so much time, and blocking sound, I'm not sure I'd have the same opinion I have now.

For me, the biggest reason I wouldn't want to tote a book is the hassle of keeping track of it (to be sure it went home with me) and trying to figure out how to open the door with both hands full.

That doesn't really seem like a very strong objection.
I DO resent the time-eating aspect, but that can be eliminated by the Book User being prepared.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 11:40 PM

There's nothing wrong with RUS as a source--one among many--for words. According to the authors, it was never meant to have the folkie hymnal status it now has.   In many ways it was just a snapshot--the best guess at a song by the authors at that point--never meant to be folkie Holy Writ.

Main problem with it is that it makes it just too easy to never even have to try to learn a song.   You come to a sing, decide you like the title of the song two from the bottom on page 34--even though you've never heard it before and have no idea how the tune goes.   So you start to guess at it--and in fact insist on singing every blessed verse printed in the hymnal. ( Obviously "you" is not any Mudcatter.)

Life's too short--and music too wonderful-- to even take a chance on that experience more than once--and it has happened.

Ever since RUS started showing up at our local open sing--several years ago--I have not attended.   And I'm not alone.   We go to music parties--and RUS is never seen. In fact books and papers in general are extremely rare. I hope RUS doesn't get brought to a Getaway--unless the book remains closed while the person is singing.

The only way to have a successful RUS session is to warn all attendees in advance that it will in fact be a RUS session.   That way those who enjoy that sort of sing will be there--and the rest will not.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: goatfell
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 08:58 AM

as I have said do what makes you feel comfortable

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 09:08 AM

I have seen RUS used at the Getaway, usually with not very good results. But I'm sure even RUS could be used occasionally IF it was only used as a cue for words, and not to drone the lyrics off the page. Here's my succinct opinion, - better not to use a book or lyric sheet, but if you do, use it judiciously and skillfully. And better to sing using a cheat sheet than not to sing at all. I've seen a lot of people refer quietly to a printed lyrics sheet and still do the song admirably.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 09:18 AM

Snail;
"Use what talent you possess: the woods would be very silent if no birds sang except those that sang best."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I can see you are the only one to suggest (on this thread or anywhere on the forum) that only the best should sing. I really would like an answer to this.
Janie:
"What some few of you insist is proper would result in me, and many like me, never, ever risking sharing our voices except very quietly on a song with a big chorus."
I'm sorry - could you explain, are you incapable of memorising a song? Why would you or anybody stop singing unless you had the text in front of you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 09:58 AM

Jim Carroll

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I can see you are the only one to suggest (on this thread or anywhere on the forum) that only the best should sing.

You're wrong.

I really would like an answer to this.

An answer to what?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 10:18 AM

My comments are strictly from the perspective of a UK singaround or folk club floorspot. I have very little experience of the US-style group sings, which I think probably require a very different approach.

The thing to bear in mind is that those of us who have hundreds of songs we can sing from memory built up this repertoire over a period of years. You don't need a vast repertoire to start singing at a singaround or club - in many cases you'll only get a chance to do two or three songs in an evening. Half-a-dozen songs should be enough to get you started, and then you can keep adding new ones to your repertoire one or two at a time.

It is not a sin to repeat songs, provided you don't do it too often. If it's a good song (and if it isn't, why sing it?) then your audience may actually welcome the chance to hear it again.

There have been a number of suggestions made during this thread of how best to commit songs to memory, and most of them can be summarised as "repetition". Sing along to a recording. Keep singing the song at every opportunity until you can do it without the words. But remember, that's just the start - keep singing the song until it's a part of you.

Someone earlier in the thread made an important distinction between "amateur" and "amateurish". It may be OK in a fairly private setting, whether it's the back room of a pub or folk festival, to accept poor singing or reading from books in the spirit of encouraging participation, and we all have to start somewhere. However in a more public setting (a singaround in the main bar, for example), and especially when people have paid to get in, then both the audience and the music should be entitled to a more accomplished performance.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 10:24 AM

Snail
Who has ever suggested that only the best should sing - aprt from you?
Isn't it a good job I didn't hold my breath

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 10:52 AM

Snail is not suggesting that only the best should sing, Jim - you're misinterpreting the quotation. It means that, if only the very best and most perfect of singers were allowed to sing, the world would be a quiet place indeed, because the majority of singers are not perfect. The point of the quotation is just the opposite - that others than the very best should be allowed to sing so that the world will not be a quiet place.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 11:01 AM

What are you on about, Jim? I've never suggested anything of the sort. (Produce your evidence. I won't hold my breath.)

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: blogward
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 11:04 AM

Back on topic: yes, it is OK. I do it if I'm trying to add to my repertoire and there hasn't been enough time for me to be confident of the lyric. The only problem is that in order to read the songbook you have to have a stand of some sort, and the print in these is usually not large enough to allow you to stand/sit back from the text. So you put a physical barrier and an 'eye contact' barrier between you and the audience.

One solution is to print the song sheet out large enough so you can read it off the floor in quick glances. This helps no end in maintaining contact with the audience. Can also be a joking point.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 11:14 AM

Sorry Will - that is exactly how I took the quotation.
Nobody has ever suggested that only the best should sing, and the suggestion that somebody has is one of the constant smokescreens used by Bryan and others to avoid the question of applying BASIC standards to singing at clubs. It also avoids the resposibility that I believe should be adopted by all serious clubs to provide assistance to new singers rather than throwing them in at the deep-end by putting them in front of an audience before they have mastered the basics (singing in tune, and remembering and understanding the words enough to be able to share a song).
This is very much a part of "to dumb down or not to dumb down2 argument that Bryan and I have been embroiled in over the last millenium or so; that's how it feels anyway.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 11:28 AM

I get a little irritated with the implied suggestion that "it's too difficult, so I needn't bother".

Singing isn't easy, especially in public, but if you're going to do it you should do it properly. Folk singing doesn't require a perfect voice, or even very much in the way of performing skills, but it should it least involve singing in tune and remembering the words. To do that requires work and effort. I'm afraid I get the impression that some people aren't prepared to put that work and effort in.

No one is surprised that it may take years of study and practice before someone is sufficiently proficient on a musical instrument to play it in public. Why then should singing be any different?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 11:52 AM

Please keep in mind that we are speaking about at least two very different things: singing, or performing, in clubs - which is apparently the UK interpretation of a song circle/singaround - and singing in a private home, which is more typical in the US.

Last night was the "First Friday" sing here in Albuquerque. About the third time around the circle I mentioned this discussion, and the very idea of discouraging the use of books was met with derision. I am not terribly fond of RUS as the be-all and end-all of sources, but some of our participants are elderly and need a memory aid. Should we say, "sorry, David, but you can't take a turn any more because you now need to read the words"? This would be the man who founded the song-circle here some 40 years ago.

It was a typical evening for us. Some people never opened a book at all, some used a book or other notes as a cue (that would be me), and some pretty much read every word. So what? We were gathered to enjoy music and each other's company, and that's exactly what we did.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 11:59 AM

Jim, I mispoke. Of course there are songs I can sing without having a prompt in front of me, but not many, and not as many as I could at one time. At the Getaway, which is two days of wall-to-wall workshop sing-arounds and three nights of song circles from after supper until....there is no way I am going to commit enough songs new to me to memory, and I do not want to subject folks to listening to me sing the same songs year after year. I only get to see most of these folks once a year.

I likely have a milder version of a learning disability with which my son has been diagnosed that effects the ability to readily memorize material. It is a dual-process involving rote learning and processing speed, which refers to how long it takes to retrieve information stored in the brain. (Was convinced I was never going to get to go to recess again when memorizing the multiplication tables.) Most of the songs that I can remember entirely without a prompt are songs I learned when I could still play guitar and autoharp, which I have not been able to do for years because of a joint condition. The use of an instrument results in learning happening through multiple sensory imputs and learning pathways that support and assist with rote memorization. Rote learning has always been difficult for me, and has gotten more so in the past few years, which I attribute to the normal processes of aging.

I choose to work on a song, practice it as much as I can, get the lyrics down as best I reasonably can, and then be sure I have them near in the likely event I am going to need to refer to them. I also tend to limit myself to shorter songs, knowing that if there are more than 3 short verses, I end up having to keep my eyes glued to the lyrics sheet.

Most of you have probably have the experience of occasionally blanking on the next verse or line and having to stop until your brain finds and retrieves the information.   It is like that, only it happens with much greater frequency. It is not caused by performance anxiety, but can create or intensify performance anxiety, and then the anxiety itself magnifies the problem.

.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 12:01 PM

I remember reading a book, I think it was David Buchan's "The Ballad People" over 30 years ago, where he studied various versions of traditional ballads and came to the conclusion that at that time in Scotland, songs were remembered by use of a narrative skeleton into which "floating" verses could be slotted, so that apparently different versions in the collections of that time were in fact what would have considered the same song by the sources.

That is my main objection to printed sources, in that they remove the ability to vary the performance according to circumstances.

In modern times, I don't think Dylan has ever had definitive versions of his songs - just compare the "Freewheelin'" and Hallowe'en '64 versions of "Don't Think Twice".

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 12:24 PM

Janie,
I apologise if I have misunderstood your situation.
My instinct is to suggest that you sing the songs you know, whether you repeat them or not, and if you are unable to learn more over a time - sure - use a prompt sheet if you have to. But having said that, I still am not convinced that anybody can interpret and enjoy the songs while they are being read from a page, either singer or audience.
But I think the argument here is wider than the situatuion you pose. We are talking about the general use of crib-sheets by people who are able to learn songs, but don't or won't, for one reason or another.
Blogward describes a strange situation of reading from a large sheet of paper so he can can 'keep eye contact with the audience' - sorry, that one lost me altogether.
Can I re-iterate what somebody wrote earlier; the question of singing from a book is a relatively new one; I honestly haven't witnesses it to any great degree in any of the clubs I have been involved in to any great degree, and I believe that the general standard of singing was far higher than it appears to be today, as was the understanding of 'folk' song.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 01:05 PM

Dave MacKenzie;
Would appreciate some clarification on the David Buchan book you quoted from - I know 'The Ballad and The Folk' but 'The Ballad People' is a new one on me.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: SunrayFC
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 01:18 PM

One can not sing AND read at the same time...unless you are as qualified as BBC newsreaders who are very good at it. Like them or not they are good at what they do.

What amazes me are the people who sing a song everyone else knows but they don't.

My advice... spend the time learning the song and make the performance a performance not a reading.

I have seen sessions where everyone gets their ringbinders out.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 01:29 PM

I think Art Brooks has well articulated that the setting of UK folk clubs is very different from our informal song circles in living rooms. Very different contexts. It does sound like these are venues that serve to provide many folks with an opportunity to perform.

I think there is also a difference between a song circle where it becomes the norm for everyone to sing out of a standard songbook, be it RUS or any other book, and a song circle, such as Art describes, where some folks need lyrics or prompts for at least some songs, and some use nothing.

I do not particularly enjoy "group sings" where there is the expectation that everyone will sing along with every song, and the use of a standard book, RUS or otherwise, might be common.   For one thing, my voice is very low pitched. Whether it is congregational singing in church or a group sing, chances are it is going to be pitched in a key I can not join in on comfortably, or if it is my turn to lead a song, few people are going to be able to comfortably sing along in a key that works for me. doesn't mean I am opposed to them occurring. Just means I won't be there.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 01:37 PM

"I still am not convinced that anybody can interpret and enjoy the songs while they are being read from a page, either singer or audience."

I've heard *fabulous* personal renditions of songs, given whilst a prompt has been within eyesight of the singer. And I've heard poorly sung songs from out of a folder too. As a listener, I simply cannot come down either way on prompts by others, because I really think that the quality of performance is entirely down to the ability of the singer - prompt or no prompt.

For myself however - I asked here and elewhere for advice on singing traditional songs before I went out to clubs. The advice I received emphasised the importance of setting a song to memory, so that it beds into you and you become intimately familiar with ever one of it's nooks and crannies.
Personally, I've found heeding that advice has been most worthwhile.

Although I started learning last year by memorising, initially I'd still keep my prompt just casually within sight (only resorting to a glance if hitting a blank), but because I determined from get go to memorise my rep. I now comfortably go out to sing without any prompt. I lost my words on one song the other night (and so missed a turn as I completely blanked and couldn't even improvise the verse), but I've found that odd moments like that become rarer, the less you are willing to allow yourself to resort to the security of printed words. And importantly I've found the *real* security comes in feeling safe to mess up ocassionally and be 'imperfect' amongst friends. Even better is to learn to recover through fast thinking and improvising a fitting alternative to the words you've memorised (arguably exactly the way traditional singers might have done, all the time?).

But to return to Jim's point, while I can't speak concerning issues of interpretation with words as a *listener*. I will say that learning to swim without armbands feels very freeing, and so too does walking without crutches, and likewise singing without word-sheets. The *experiential* difference between KNOWING a song through and through and being dependent on a support in order to sing it, feels a pretty substantial one to me. I'm glad I started out by determining to memorise my words, it's been well worth it so far. And now that I'm venturing forth into the 'muckle sangs' (longer narrative ballads), I know it can only get better..

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 01:50 PM

Jim Carroll

It also avoids the resposibility that I believe should be adopted by all serious clubs to provide assistance to new singers rather than throwing them in at the deep-end by putting them in front of an audience before they have mastered the basics (singing in tune, and remembering and understanding the words enough to be able to share a song).

How are we supposed to know before we put them on?

This is very much a part of "to dumb down or not to dumb down2 argument that Bryan and I have been embroiled in over the last millenium or so; that's how it feels anyway.

I don't approve of dumbing down. You don't approve of dumbing down.What's the argument?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 01:54 PM

Nobody says RUS shouldn't be used at a sing.   But it should be made clear in advance that it will be used.   And some of us won't be there.

That book is far more pernicious than any other book--especially, as I noted, a book lovingly put together by a singer over a period of years. And I'd be surprised if someone who has sung for 40 years doesn't have such a compendium of songs he or she likes to sing. It doesn't sound as if RUS should be necessary in the situation described.

Even better is no book at all--but we realize that that is a problem for some singers.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 02:01 PM

"Far more pernicious"? It's a songbook. I've never met anyone who thought of it as sacred text. And if someone wants to refer to that book rather than another reference, why not?

200, by the way.