BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 18 - 06:42 AM

Acts of politicians should not be politicised, from someone who has politicised the rape of children and the harassment and rape of women politicians!!
Funny old world eh!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 18 - 06:47 AM

Not true because there is no "evidence of illegal status" to supply.

That is nonsense. The Home Office didn't see any need to look for such evidence. It is in many cases perfectly possible to prove the circumstances of a migrant's arrival in this country, for a start. In the case of the Windrush generation that was prima facie evidence of their legal status here.

If the claim was that at some time in the past few decades they had spent sustained periods of time outside the country in a way that deprived them of legal status here, it would be perfectly possible to seek evidence that would prove that to be the case.

In some cases perhaps it might be seen as difficult or even impossible to find proof of someone's illegal status. In that case their right to stay would be recognised. If in some cases people would be granted that status when they were not entitled, that's how it goes. Better by far to err in that direction than the other way, as has been done till now.

It was much easier not to bother to seek that kind of evidence, and just demand that people had to produce some particular proof to confirm their legal status, while refusing to accept other forms of proof. But it was fundamentally unjust, as the government now belatedly admits. It was also almost certainly in breach of legally binding human rights legislation.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 May 18 - 07:39 AM

It is possible to go too far in the other direction:
In some cases perhaps it might be seen as difficult or even impossible to find proof of someone's illegal status. In that case their right to stay would be recognised. If in some cases people would be granted that status when they were not entitled, that's how it goes. Better by far to err in that direction than the other way, as has been done till now.
If an illegal immigrant enters the UK tonight on the back of a lorry, and disappears into a local neighbourhood without being captured on CCTV. When he reappears tomorrow morning, what 'evidence can be found to show that he is an illegal immigrant? Are we to take his word for his legal status?

Lack of proof that he is here illegally is not proof that he is here legally.
Similarly:
Lack of proof that he is here legally is not proof that he is here illegally.

Each case needs to be treated on its own merits.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 May 18 - 08:09 AM

Lack of evidence can never prove anything and in a country which works on the innocent until proven guilty that is a very significant fact.

My birth certificate has the surname 'Polakow', which is not my name now. If I did not have the deed poll certificate of my name change, how could I prove I was born here?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 18 - 08:36 AM

You'd keep looking till you find evidence, direct or circumstantial. If you picked up some random stranger and accused them of a crime you'd have to find some kind of reason more than that they just haven't got an alibi. "You've no proof where you were that night, so we'll find you guilty."

As you say, Nigel, every case has to be treated on its own merits. That means looking for different kinds of evidence - it shouldn't mean dispensing with any need to find evidence

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 18 - 09:25 AM

Lack of proof that he is here legally is not proof that he is here illegally.

Maybe not, but not having proof of status will get you expelled and not just under the Tories and not just in Britain.

It is in many cases perfectly possible to prove the circumstances of a migrant's arrival in this country,

No problem in that case, but the Windrush children were left with nothing.

In the case of the Windrush generation that was prima facie evidence of their legal status here.

What was? There was no evidence of their boarding or landing. It was decided to burn those records in 2009.

Most children had nothing to show how they got here, or that they were entitled to say.

In some cases perhaps it might be seen as difficult or even impossible to find proof of someone's illegal status. In that case their right to stay would be recognised

No it would not. That would make it impossible to remove any illegal immigrant. There is no way to prove that anyone arrived illegally. It would be an automatic and immediate amnesty for everyone as soon as they stepped off the lorry or boat.

But it was fundamentally unjust, as the government now belatedly admits.

The government never denied it. It is obviously unjust that those people were left without proof of status. No one government is to blame for that injustice.

There are estimated to be over a million illegal immigrants in Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 18 - 10:07 AM

"Are we to take his word for his legal status?"
Sounds more and more like Nazi Germany looking for Jews
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 May 18 - 10:54 AM

Entire UK to be deported for not keeping all their paperwork

Roll on... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 18 - 11:16 AM

"Are we to take his word for his legal status?"
Sounds more and more like Nazi Germany looking for Jews

Really?
What country in the world would accept an assurance from a suspected illegal immigrant that they were legal?
None.
When you are accepted you are provided with proof of your status.
Or should be.
Successive governments have failed these people.
It is shameful that their plight is being used for political point scoring by the Left.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 May 18 - 11:36 AM

It's even more shameful that the Tories destroyed the records of their legal right to be here, then used that as an excuse to kick them out, refuse medical treatment, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 18 - 12:07 PM

If you mean the boarding and landing passes, the decision to destroy was made under Labour.

then used that as an excuse to kick them out, refuse medical treatment, etc

Labour policy on illegals was and is the same.
You are just using their plight for political point scoring.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 May 18 - 12:14 PM

But they were destroyed by the Tories. Nobody forced them, they decided to carry it out themselves.

You are just being a troll, as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 18 - 12:18 PM

On what grounds should someone who has lived and worked in this country for years be suspected of being an illegal immigrant in the first place? Would being black be sufficient to justify asking for documents? There has to be some additional indication.

Keith, not even Theresa May is now saying the things you are saying. It is recognised now that inability to produce documents is not in itself proof of illegal status.

Never mind. Be glad you aren’t Home Secretary faced with trying to sort this out, and live with the flack when the promises about undoing that harm that has been done turn out to be as hollow as the promises made to Grenfell survivors.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 18 - 12:22 PM

Is this inhumanbeing still defending something the Tories have just lost a Minister over ?
Un-be-lie-vable
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 May 18 - 12:28 PM

Don't. Feed. The. Feeble-minded. Troll.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 18 - 01:28 PM

Ditto Baccy
It only work if we all agree to it
His mindless inhumanity is very tempting though - probably not getting the attention at home so he comes here to get some from us
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 May 18 - 01:45 PM

I know, Jim. I sometimes forget, and jump through one of his feeble-minded hoops myself. Then I remind myself what a pathetic, childish little twerp he is. I'll bet he used to pull the legs off spiders when he was young. (I almost said when he was a child, but I remembered in time that he's still a child).

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 18 - 01:52 PM

He wouldn't hurt a fly actually. (Hertford isn’t far from Harlow.)

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 18 - 02:32 PM

But they were destroyed by the Tories. Nobody forced them, they decided to carry it out themselves.

Yes, the Tories carried out Labour policy, so they are both as bad as each other.

On what grounds should someone who has lived and worked in this country for years be suspected of being an illegal immigrant in the first place? Would being black be sufficient to justify asking for documents?

No. You now have to prove citizenship to get a job or rent a house whatever colour you are.

Keith, not even Theresa May is now saying the things you are saying. It is recognised now that inability to produce documents is not in itself proof of illegal status.

Only since the plight of Windrush folk was recognised. They are legal but have no proof, so the system is now seen to be flawed, but only for people with that history.

Is this inhumanbeing still defending something the Tories have just lost a Minister over ?

If you mean me, the Minister was sacked because she said there were no targets, not because Windrush was her's or the Tories' fault. It was not.

He wouldn't hurt a fly actually. (Hertford isn’t far from Harlow.)

Thanks Kevin. Long time no see.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 May 18 - 02:47 PM

To clarify the issue of documentation.

2009 – Destruction of documents begins

In June 2009, the UK Border Agency approved the business case for disposing of millions of paper records.

The Home Office told us that it was then that the landing cards – or “registry slips” as they’re officially known – were earmarked for destruction. The work began in December of that year.

Alan Johnson was the Labour Home Secretary at the time. When asked if he knew that the registry slips were being destroyed, he said: “No, it was an administrative decision taken by the UK Border Agency.”

2010 – Registry slips destroyed

Although the decision was made in 2009, it wasn’t until October 2010, when the Conservative-Lib Dem Coalition government were in power, that the registry slips were actually disposed of. The Home Office described this to us as an “operational decision”.

Theresa May was Home Secretary at the time, but we haven’t seen evidence either way to suggest that she knew about, or signed off, the decision.

Of course none of this mattered until...

2012 – Hostile environment policy introduced

In May 2012, Theresa May declared: “the aim is to create here in Britain a really hostile environment for illegal migration.”

And sure enough, the Immigration Act 2014 brought in new powers to help the Home Office and other government agencies make life difficult for illegal migrants.

But many have claimed that those same policies have been unfairly damaging and intrusive to people who are here legally, including the Windrush generation.

The more astute amongst you will spot the close proximity of the destruction of the papers and the introduction of the hostile environment and the fact that it was during May's watch that this happened. The more cynical of us can draw our own conclusions. Some idiot will say it was pure coincidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 18 - 02:52 PM

"I'll bet he used to pull the legs "
Only when he couldn't get dogs or small children to do it to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 May 18 - 02:54 PM

"Yes, the Tories carried out Labour policy, so they are both as bad as each other."

No, the policies of 'Hostile Environment' and deportation of immigrants from Commonwealth countries who have been established here for 50 years or more are the policies of the Conservatives, no-one else.

Why do you continue to defend the indefensible (other than you being a disgusting racist specimen, which you have demonstrated over and over again on this forum)?

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The insults are getting personal. Thread closed.
-Joe Offer-