Is it Ok to sing from a song book?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 02:11 PM

Because, as I said, it's a manufactured book, not one put together by the singer.   And since it has lots of songs, it's easy for somebody to decide on the spur of the moment they'd like to try one--having no idea how it goes.   And everybody else is subjected to that.   Or they stumble through every verse.   And if you sing a song that's in that book, but not the exact words as in the book, or in the same order,   everybody with the book is baffled--and not happy.

There is also no reason on God's green earth that everybody has to sing every word of every song. I'm perfectly happy to just come in on a chorus, and let the leader sing the verses.

Again, if RUS floats your boat, no problem. Just tell us in advance that that book will be there, and those of us who want a different experience will make plans accordingly.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 02:28 PM

Well, I have about 15 linear feet of songbooks. I have "manufactured books" by Alan Lomax, Cyril Tawney and Carl Sandberg. I have lyric books by Judy Collins and Joan Biaz. I have hymnals from a variety of religions. I have folios filled with sheets that have been passed out at various places, including the Getaway. I have notebooks with songs transcribed from records. IMHO, a "manufactured book" that was originally overseen by Pete Seeger is a pretty good resource. Are you seriously advocating that, if a person wants to sing a song in RUS (which hasn't been blue for years), they transcribe it and memorize the transcription? Seems dumb to me, but I'm no judge of others.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 03:00 PM

"How are we supposed to know before we put them on?"

I get seriously muddled with some of these discussions.

If Jim is saying that all *amateur session* members need to be vetted, then I say he is wrong. In the same way any amateur club accepts all-comers (be they watercolourists or macrameists).

If Jim is saying folk clubs aught to vet whatever they put up on stage before a *paying audience*, then I agree.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 03:01 PM

Bryan
Your argument, in the context of a discussion on basic standards, was that the only requirement for giving a singer a floor spot was a desire on their part to want to sing, nothing more. You even consulted your committee to confirm that this was club policy. As far Is I am aware, you have never moved from this statement - as far as I am concerned, this is 'dumbing down', as I believe that the ability to hold a tune, and remember and understand a text is a must.
If your stance on this has altered in any way, there is no argument.
Of course you give all singers who wish to a chance to sing, as I've said on several occasions, but should they prove themselves unable to do either or both of the above, you offer them assistance rather than allowing them to continue to practice in public.
I know that Lewes has an enviable programme of workshops, but you have never said how you cater for beginners.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 03:03 PM

I have said throughout that my own comments are directed at the UK setup, which I believe was the context of the OP's question.

A group singaround where everyone is joining in the whole song, verses as well as choruses, is a different matter. Then it clearly makes sense for everyone to be singing the same version, which suggests the use of a book or songsheets. If I'm understanding correctly, the concern is not about using these as such, but that one particular book has become dominant to the point where some people feel it is stifling.

In the pubs where the traditional Sheffield Carols are sung they will often provide songbooks, mainly for the benefit of visitors who are not familiar with the carols, many of which are either local or are local variants. I have no problem with this.

It is very different where an individual singer is taking their turn in a singaround or performing a floorspot. No one expects you to come up to professional standards, but that's no excuse for not putting in the necessary work on the songs. Why should the audience be expected to listen to you if you have not?

If you have a medical condition which affects your memory, then clearly that puts a different light on things. However this only affects a minority. Nevertheless, I would encourage the use of discreet cue cards, to support singing from memory as far as possible, rather than singing from a full set of lyrics.

In case anyone thinks I had it easy, my first public performances were at a folk club held at my school. An audience made up of one's 16-18 year old peers (most of whom are there to meet girls rather than out of any interest in folk music) is a far cry from the caring and supportive atmosphere usually found in adult singarounds. I've had my share of forgetting words or making embarrasing mix-ups. I've learned from them - learned to prepare better, and learned tricks to cope with the occasional blanks. You can't learn this if you rely on having the words in front of you.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 03:10 PM

So, is memorization "dumb"?   That would be news.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: MikeL2
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 03:35 PM

Hi howard

I agree with you.

Like you I first performed in school where the pupils had been instructed to go. So they weren't very sympathetic to our fumbling early performances.

Like you I learned how to improve , mainly by practice....bloody practice.

Some time later I joined a rock group as guitarist vocalist. This group was semi-pro and we got paid for every gig. The group had been together for some time but the vocalist moved on.

I was given a list of songs that I would be required to sing. And I just had to learn them !!!! or else.................

Luckily most of the songs were hit songs of the time and I knew many of them but not completely word perfect and certainly not to performance standard.

I got by although the first few dates were a little nerve-racking.

AND NOT A BOOK NOR PIECE OF PAPER DID I HAVE. !!! They wouldn't let me. They did feed me the keys and some of the first lines and I went from there.

Of course I made some mistakes but they covered me. But I never made the same mistake twice as the other members were very fierce critics.
As I got more experience I realised that they had been teaching me to stand on my own two feet.

I soon became confident. Each week when we met for practice we would go through what our content would be for the gigs for that week. There were always new songs to be done and as the vocalist it was my job to learn the lyrics.

Fortunately I found learning words - be they poetry or lyrics of songs easy.

Even now ....and I'm over 21....lol I still find it almost as easy as I did then.

Of course in some ways it is easier now then then - the Internet is a constant and immediate source of lyrics both in written and audio mediums.

I have no objection to others using props but I believe that it would better for all if they did learn the word adequately to perform.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 04:09 PM

Of course I made some mistakes but they covered me. But I never made the same mistake twice as the other members were very fierce critics.
As I got more experience I realised that they had been teaching me to stand on my own two feet.

Getting back to folk clubs, I suspect Mike's put his finger on what's changed. The story might go like this: there used to be a demanding audience for folk music, which rewarded people who made the effort to get it right; performers who put in a slipshod performance would be tolerated, but they'd be left in no doubt that they needed to try harder. Now there's an uncritical audience, which rewards anyone who makes the effort to get out of their seat. (But I wasn't around for part 1, so I've no idea if this is true or not.)

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,Yorky
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 04:13 PM

Loads of excuses for using paper here.

Just LEARN the bloomin' song and dispense with the paper - I despair when I see folk comin' thro' the door into our fortnightly singaround with BIG (ever expanding) A4 files, leafing thro' them and when it's their turn, settlin' on one they've done virtually every time for the last umpteen months and singin' it from the bloomin' sheet. AAAARGH!

Practise at home, not in the assembled company. Nothin' worse than some clown announcin' "This is a new one - I've not got it right yet, but I'll give it a go anyway"

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Paco O'Barmy
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 04:20 PM

two hundred and nine posts on a simple question. Is it any wonder that no one with a pulse goes to 'folk' clubs? Your tolerance level seems to be set at -100.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 04:26 PM

Pip, you may be right. What's more, the uncritical audiences have created an environment which drives the critical ones away.

I used to go to at least a couple of folk clubs a week. One was purely a singers' club, no guests, but the standard was mostly fairly good. The other had booked guests most weeks, and a pretty high standard of floor singers. I don't think that had to be policed, rather that the poorer singers realised they would be out of their depth and didn't put themselves forward. There were other places they could sing.

I was happy to only play a couple of songs myself because I knew I would enjoy listening to the other performers.

Now, guest clubs have more or less disappeared (around here anyway) leaving just the singers clubs. I'm not prepared to go to these, only get to play a couple of songs myself and then have to listen to a load of poorly prepared and under-rehearsed performers. I prefer to go to informal music sessions where I can play all night.

I fear the bad is driving out the good.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 04:34 PM

I think we have an obligation when we enter a group that is new to us not to be an invasive species. We should look around and try to see what others are doing. We should ask and not presume. We should not impose. I would not go to shape note gatherings and try to get them to not use their books. I would not go to choir practice and try to get them to not use books. Likewise, I expect that if a group has functioned without written or spoken rules, but there at least in recent memory no books in sight (I am not talking about for individual use but group use)I should not be the one to force it on the group. Then next week someone else comes and there will be two, and then it spreads. A group can tolerate a bit of flexibility, but then it changes. People who preferred one way are not going to probably scold you..they are just not going to come back to the original group once it reaches its tipping point. We can all think of many groups in many cities that will never tip back. The only hope is to reform a group with strict written and oral guidelines.

To me the main issue is the late night sessions at the camps. That is why I go to the camps. People have all day at the workshops, they have a concert, they have an official song circle with books and tolerance for books. What happens is that after this is all done, some of us find another building..I am now announcing where I will be and that I want no group books and we will not take turns and we will not pontificate between songs and if anyone wants to join lme that is where I will be. Even with announcements before hand, even when people have to move from the main lodge where the default would be it is OK to use books and take turns..they will still come with their books and expect to take turns in a separate room that has been set up for the purpose of exactly not doing that. That is when I think it is invasive species behavior. mg

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 04:35 PM

Don, I agree that most audiences can't tell if you make a mistake if you act like you did it on purpose. But that doesn't mean the mistake lyric is as good as the correct one. Sometimes it just means the audience wasn't paying that much attention to the lyrics or maybe that they'll just be less impressed with the lyrics than they might have been without the error.

"I don't create new arrangements with my mistakes. If I make a mistake I make sure I don't repeat it next time."
Maybe you won't, but other people who heard the mistake might pass it on, without realizing it was a mistake.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 04:38 PM

Mary (mg), who said that a singaround in a pub or a folk song circle is analogous to a "highly skilled" quilting bee?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Amos
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 04:40 PM

It is okay to sing. Period. From a book, from imagination, from notes written in felt-tip on the back of your hand, from a bouncing ball on a video screen prompter, or from heart-learned songs. Just, sing dammit!


A

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 04:42 PM

Hi Yorkie no offense taken
In regards to Clowns.
But
Who the more foolish the Fool? or the Fool who follows such self perfection. There is nothing wrong with using pen downed details. What about people like my son who is dyslexic or folk who learn in there own way by the pencil and pad.
The home is not always the place to learn. Playing in front of people/The cat is not half has encouraging has playing with a written paper if you are learning-in front of a singer around audience fore if one does get it right its a buzz that leads to the eventual latter.
Kind regards Pierre

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 04:51 PM

Ron D, I agree about RUS.

It is very hard to use "the blue book of death" as an unobtrusive 'cue card', because the type is small and the format is such that it's very hard to GLANCE occasionally at the page to refresh your memory in case of a brain fart (or when there's a verse you never learned.)

People using RUS do tend to have their head buried in the page.   
Plus RUS has many non-standard versions of lyrics and/or chords, in addition to outright errors.   Aside from all else we've said about the pluses and minuses of printed 'crutches', I hate singing from "the blue hymnal" because my version of the song -- whether "the correct one" or merely one of many variations -- is likely to be different from what's in the book.

Although many people and groups use it, I really don't think RUS was intended to be read from regularly in song circles. It usually has good info on the source of songs and it can be a great aid to adding songs to your repertoire, but it's far better as a research resource than as a hymnal or substitute for big-print lyric sheets or sheet music.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 04:59 PM

"Who the more foolish the Fool?"

Pierre/Pete, what folks need is a *performer*, in my humble, that's about it.
All this talk of crib sheets and banned songs is meaningless without good robust performamnce.

EG: you pull off "Drunken Sailor" in a a way many who strum it never will, because you invest it with a good laugh. It feels like a balsy salty song - it works because you fill it wit character.

Many times I think these discussions on Mudcat are totally meaningless, like studying the suummerz buzz of the bee... ... by sticking it in a glue filled test-tube.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 05:04 PM

I don't think they are meaningless at all. This happened last weekend. It has to come out in the open or other groups will shut down. True, new ones could take their place, and fine. mg

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 05:07 PM

Thank you very much Crows sister but there are many verses to drunken sailor and I only sang 4 folk were shocked when I stopped so quickly. I f I had the lyrics to the sixteen other verses written in front of me I would have continued in the much same manner has you discribed above except I would have and have mastered the glance tecnhcque

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 05:09 PM

All Im am saying is give people new to the scene a chance howsoever they achieve it.
Kind regards to all Pierre.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 05:14 PM

In regards to Drunken Sailor John Barden said to me at the end of the Stoke session.
"Bloody Hell Pete they are going to love you at Sidmouth?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 05:25 PM

There is a Link to the above Drunken sailor on the Lower Coke Threads.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 05:36 PM

Jim Carroll: "Janie,
... My instinct is to suggest that you sing the songs you know, whether you repeat them or not, ..."

That may be your instinct, Jim, but some of us, as performers and/or as audience members, would rather have more different songs presented than have everything done excellently with no cheat sheets.

Janie's earlier post is an excellent summary of how the disdain for ever using printed material can suppress people's enjoyment of the process of making music.

I would add that some people cannot get by with just overlearning a few dozen songs.   I, for instance, do music professionally for senior communities such as retirement and nursing homes.   To provide entertainment (for some) and music as therapy (for others) for a wide spectrum of communities, I need to have hundreds of different songs that I can and do use for concerts, parties, sing-alongs, and room-to-room music. I probably have at least 500 songs committed to memory - and many others that I can do upon request with only a brief refresher glance at the lyrics.   If I add the repertoire that I use at folk gatherings - which doesn't overlap a lot with what I get paid to play and sing -- that adds another couple hundred.      And many of the songs I do are somewhat seasonal or audience specific, plus my audiences often make requests.   I'm not a great singer or guitarist, but I do have an exceptionally large and eclectic repertoire, which is important in my work.

Again, we're back to the one-size-does-not-fit-all concept.   
Both for most of my paid gigs and for most folk workshops and song circles I attend, the focus is more on enjoying good songs, having people join in, and performing them decently.   And lyric/chord sheets can be very helpful, especially if they're large enough print to be read from several feet away (and at a glance).   

--

Howard: "Folk singing doesn't require a perfect voice, or even very much in the way of performing skills, but it should it least involve singing in tune and remembering the words. "
Just my opinion, but I'd much rather listen to someone with a good voice and impressive instrumental skills who had sheet music on a stand in front of him/her than to a mediocre musician and singer do a song that's been perfectly memorized.
A soloist using sheet music doesn't bother me any more than it does when orchestras or choirs do.




tBut having said that, I still am not convinced that anybody can interpret and enjoy the songs while they are being read from a page, either singer or audience.
But I think the argument here is wider than the situatuion you pose. We are talking about the general use of crib-sheets by people who are able to learn songs, but don't or won't, for one reason or another.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 05:44 PM

Janie, I can relate to your point about group singing often being uncomfortable for those of use who tend to sing in different keys than most of the group.

But I think some songs are "made" by harmony, especially multi-part harmony, and try as I might, I just cannot pull off harmony as a soloist (without hi-tech help). I'm funny that way.

While I concur in not liking it when everyone is expected to sing along on evrerything, I do think that group singing provides some wonderful music experiences that listening to a series of soloists can't.   While the point has tended to be passed over in this discussion, I think that a primary valid reason for using books or sheet music is to facilitate people singing together "from the same page of the music" and with harmonies added.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 05:50 PM

Jim: "Blogward describes a strange situation of reading from a large sheet of paper so he can can 'keep eye contact with the audience' - sorry, that one lost me altogether."
It's really not that hard. Kind of like keeping your eye on the road when driving yet glancing from time to time in the rear-view mirror.

Just as a skilled speaker or TV journalist use a monitor without it being obvious to the audience, it's possible to use a large-print lyric sheet very unobtrusively, especially if you already know the song pretty well.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 06:04 PM

In case it confused anyone, this paragraph in my recent post wasn't mine and was included by mistake:

"tBut having said that, I still am not convinced that anybody can interpret and enjoy the songs while they are being read from a page, either singer or audience.
But I think the argument here is wider than the situatuion you pose. We are talking about the general use of crib-sheets by people who are able to learn songs, but don't or won't, for one reason or another."

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 06:20 PM

Jim.

You're probably right about the book (if that is the one I remember). I borrowed it from Edinburgh Central Library and I left Edinburgh at the end of '74.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Deckman
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 06:33 PM

A few years ago, after years of disgust about the manner in which "rise up singing" has RUINED the Seattle song circle I helped form by supporting it early on, I wrote a song:

"This is the song, on page 17, page 17, page 17,
This is the song on page 17,
And my books better than yours.

2ND VERSE:

"This is the song on page 18, page 18, page 18,
This is the song on page 18,
And my books better than yours.

3rd verse:

This is the song, on page 19" ... you get my drift.

Many years ago, when the late John Dwyer phoned me, and asked if I would help to support a "song circle" in Seattle, I jumped at the chance. Prior to that, we had our occasional hoots, but the thought of having a regular weekly meeting where we could exchange our songs in that free flow of spontaneous music, was exciting to all of us.

After some years, I distanced myself from regular attendance due to raising a family and working two jobs, most of my life. When I finally tried to return to the Seattle "song circle", I was thunderstruck to see that it had become nothing more than a "community sing." Nothing of the spontaneous give and take, and musical repartee was left.

"This is the song on page 20, page 20, page 20 ...... Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 07:55 PM

I hear you, Genie, and I enjoy joining in on choruses or with a harmony when I can. I really like singing harmony, but because I rarely have an opportunity to sing with others, my "harmony muscle" gets out of shape. I notice at the Getaway that by the last evening, I can find a harmony much easier than at the beginning. To really do a good job singing harmony, I need to be able to rehearse the part again, again and again. I do not have a great "ear" or great confidence

I know how much I love those wonderful, big, fat harmonies that arise on the choruses of some songs at the Getaway, especially those songs it is obvious have been long beloved and are well-known to a large bunch of the FSGW folks. Having been to a couple of Getaway's yourself, you know just what I am talking about. I'll sing softly and tentatively so that my search for a harmony won't throw off the person next to me, or switch to singing the melody an octave below, which is usually in the basement of my range, and which strains and damages my voice. I might have heard many of these songs enough to be somewhat familiar, but most of them I don't know well. My problems with memorization are very evident in these situations. If I'm lucky (not to mention the person sitting next to me) I will finally have the melody and the words to the chorus down by the last of 10 chorus repetitions. It is hard to sing harmony when one does not have the melody down pat. I sing along as best I can, and very softly.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 08:24 PM

Genie, the point I was trying to make is that folk music is a lot more open than most genres of music. The focus is the song, not the singer. Consequently a wonderful voice is not required to be a great folk singer. As for performance, all a folk singer has to do is stand there and sing. They're not expected to do a dance routine, or wave their arms around in a cloud of dry ice.

All that really leaves is the singing. All I'm asking is that people make the effort learn to sing and learn the song. Again, can I remind you I'm referring to people doing a solo turn, not people singing together as part of a group. I'm referring to people giving performances, even if they may be fairly informal.

I reject the idea, which seems increasingly prevalent, that all that matters is that people sing, regardless of what comes out. Sure, folk allows people to participate, but there's more to it than that. It should be possible to go to a folk club and hear music performed to a reasonable standard.

If people really can't sing, then they shouldn't be inflicting it on an audience, keep it for the shower. If they can sing, then please make an effort to do it properly. Otherwise, it's just self-indulgence - a belief that other people are going to want to hear you sing this song, even though you haven't taken the trouble to learn it.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 08:36 PM

Howard, am I correct in thinking you are in the UK?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 09:49 PM

Janie, I feel that I really must thank you for many of your postings, because they carry so much honesty and deep-felt conviction and sincerity in what you say here.

I particular (and may I encourage others on this thread to scroll back and read this), your posting on 05 Feb 10 at 10.54 PM;
I personally found your words here to be beautiful, honest and heart-renderingly true. You definately hit my nail on the head, moved me deeply and stopped me in my tracks.

I just wish I could express myself and my experience of the whole 'folk experience' anywhere near as good as you.

God bless you.

Chris

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 10:49 PM

FWIW, Bob (Deckman), I go to the Seattle Song Circles fairly often - at least on the 2nd and 3rd Sundays - and while people often do use printed songs in one way or another, most of the songs people do there are not from Rise Up Singing, and even when a song is "in the book," if it's a familiar song, most people don't use the book. Some people do solos (or maybe sing with one or two others who know the song they're doing) but on many songs the group sings along. It's pretty varied and depends on who shows up. It's certainly not an "everybody turn to page 242" routine.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 11:09 PM

Howard,
I don't think you and I disagree that much.

Yes, the focus in folk music is the song, not the singer. To me that's why I'm not crazy about hearing the great singers & instrumentalists "fake it" or leave out key verses when they go blank (as anyone can do) on a well-written song.   And that's why it doesn't bother me if people have some sort of cue-sheet handy.

I like this: ".As for performance, all a folk singer has to do is stand there and sing. They're not expected to do a dance routine, or wave their arms around in a cloud of dry ice."
LOL
Of course, what I mean by "performance" is things like engaging the audience, putting feeling into the song, etc., not doing a tap dance while singing.

Much of the discussion here seems premised on the idea that our songs are short, simple, and/or repetitive.   And I do many songs of that sort, where I'd never feel the need to use song sheets.   But there are other types that are more challenging, especially if you want anyone to sing along.   E.g., one of my "special" songs is the US Civil War song "Lorena." Even if I leave out 2 verses, there are 4 more, and there's nary a repeat in the lyrics except for the name "Lorena."   Plus a few lines in the verses are sort of interchangeable (from one verse to another), which is a problem if you want others to sing with you, which I do.

As for the competence of those who may be playing and singing along, I jam with some folks who are superb instrumentalists and good singers too. They can usually play along without chord sheets if it's "folk" or "country" or "bluegrass" and they can be good at harmonizing too. But if I do a song they haven't practiced singing and it doesn't have a chorus, or I want them to join on the verses, they really need lyric sheets. These jammers usually don't use printed material -- though many fiddlers like to have "the dots" if it's not an old favorite -- but if they do use lyric sheets or music scores it generally makes for a better jam on the new song than would be without the sheets.   The other thing about jams like this is, the way the group often learns a new song is to use song sheets the first few times.   The jam session is, among other things, an opportunity to work up new material as a group.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 11:40 PM

Worst thing is people who have memorized five songs wont change them and wont learn any more and expect you to turn up at their gigs.

Second worst thing is singing to people who would like to sing along but who do not have the lyrics. Everyone should have lyrics and where possible notation.

It takes time to learn lyrics bring your audience into the tent with assistance.

Then there are people who think they know the lyrics and don't quite....what a mess.

As the priest once said.....one day I went in without a script and buried them instead of marrying them. Lyrics and notation can be helpful to stay on track.

One can improvise better with a few tools.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 11:41 PM

Chris,

*blush*

Went back and re-read that post myself. I should add to the remark about understanding that there is not room for people like me at all tables, that I also do not think there ought to be room for folks like me at all tables. However, it is possible, and in my opinion, desirable, to appreciate and validate, rather than devalue, the function of any setting where people come together to sing. I do hope that there will always be room for folks like me at some tables where good musicians and singers also sit. I would also hope that good musicians and singers who do not care for "community sings" (I don't much enjoy them, myself) might at least acknowledge and validate the worth and value of them, and not belittle these music gatherings where people come together to raise their voices in song, even if the quality of the music or personal satisfaction you formerly derived is no longer there, and so you choose not to participate.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 09:24 AM

I was talking to the late and much lamented Jake Thackeray some years ago and I asked him why he never sang 'Isobel makes love on our national monuments' any more. His answer was most illuminating. He told me that the last time he sang it, halfway through he was thinking about replacing the glass in his garage window at home and was thinking to himself if he had enough putty. He realised that the song meant nothing to him any more, he could sing it without thinking about it and as if he was on auto pilot. So he just stopped singing it.

I think the moral is, learn your song, learn it well, but know when to stop singing it.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 11:34 AM

"Your tolerance level seems to be set at -100."
I think it is as unjust and irrational to describe those of us who find the use of crib sheets inrusive, as being intolerant, as it would be for us to describe those who use them as lazy bastards who can't be bothered.
I'm happy to accept Janie's argument, to a degree, but the 'Linus blanket argument just doesn't work for me at all - unless you have a deficiancy which prevents you from doing so, there is nothing to stop you putting in the necessary work in order to prepare the song for performance.
Genie;
"Just as a skilled speaker or TV journalist...."
Don't accept the analogy at all. A song is a structured piece of work with a set sequence which can (has to be) be learned; a talk is a totally different matter.
Still can't see how glancing down at a script enables a singer maintain eye-contact; it seems to me a singer is dividing his/her attention into three directions; song-script-audience; and if he/she is using accompaniment - that way leads to madness.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 12:17 PM

Janie, yes I am in the UK. Here there are two typical formats. One is the "floorspot", where a performer is given two or three songs, up in front of the audience (who will usually have paid to get in). Often there are a number of floorspots from different singers before the main guest comes on.

The other is the "singaround", which is less formal, but not totally informal. In this setup singers take it in turn, usually going round the room and taking one song each at a time. Usually there is not a main guest.

In both cases these are usually held in pubs, not in private houses which I gather is more common in the US. In the case of singarounds in particular, these may be held in an open bar where they can be heard by other customers (the other type of club is usually in a separate function room where entry can be controlled).

In both formats the songs sung may or may not be intended for joining in. Usually, the audience would be expected to join in only with the chorus, and not with the verses unless invited (indeed, this would usually be disapproved of since the singer may be doing a different version of the song). However etiquette does vary from club to club.

You will therefore understand that these are far more in the nature of individual performances than the type of gathering you are perhaps familiar with.

There is of course a place for venues where people can just sing without feeling under pressure, and where novice singers can gain experience. However in my view these should be private gatherings or workshops, or at least confined to situations such as festivals where passers-by are folkies, rather than a public bar where it will be heard by the general public. Folk music has enough of an image problem, and where events are accessible by the general public some degree of quality control may be appropriate.

Genie said in a post yesterday that he would rather hear a good singer using a book than a mediocre singer without one who forgot the words. Well, given that choice, so would I. However, in my experience it is rare to find a good singer who needs a book. Most singers who rely on books are unconfident singers, but having the words to hand doesn't make them any more confident or competent - instead of forgetting the words they are just as likely to lose their place on the page.

Encouraging people to memorise songs is not just about presentation. The work involved in doing this helps to improve everything about your singing

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 12:24 PM

mg: I am now announcing where I will be and that I want no group books and we will not take turns and we will not pontificate between songs and if anyone wants to join lme that is where I will be

What's wrong with taking turns? I much prefer it to the "jump in when you're ready" approach - being an unaccompanied singer I don't have the luxury of strumming an intro.

Much of the discussion here seems premised on the idea that our songs are short, simple, and/or repetitive.

Does it? I never use a crib, whether I'm singing four verses of Thousands Or More or twenty-four of Little Musgrave.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Janie
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 12:48 PM

Thanks Howard. That is helpful. From what I have read, the Press Room and Shanty Sing that our New Englanders refer to may be very similar, and I'm sure there are other similar venues in some regions in the USA, but not many. The closest common thing here is probably "Open Mic" nights at some bars and coffee houses. Very different from 5 to 20 people gathered in the privacy of some one's living room.

Janie

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Silas
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 12:54 PM

If a song is worth singing, surely it is worth learning?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,Bob L
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 02:31 PM

I have to admit, I'm starting to rely on a crib sheet for songs that once upon a time were fixed in my memory... but then I don't sing as often as I used to, and my memory is like a singularly volatile sieve. If it's ever my fate to succumb to Alzheimer's, it will be about 18 months before anyone notices.

However, some useful tips I learned at a dance callers' workshop many years ago:
   Rule 1. Make sure you know the dance thoroughly so you don't need a crib.
   Rule 0. Have the crib handy anyway.
Maybe the same consideration applies.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Bernard
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 02:31 PM

If everyone is singing from the same book, why not just say the page number, everyone take a quick peek and clap. No need to bother singing the songs at all!

(I'll get me coat!)

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Deckman
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 02:51 PM

I see that "Bernard" gets the point of my song! Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 03:28 PM

Guest Bob,
Your dance caller rules seem to sum it up pretty well for me. I'd adapt them as follows:
1. DO learn your song and rehearse it so you won't have to read it from a book or notes.
(Exception: In some settings you may get requests for songs you didn't specifically rehearse to perform that night, in which case making using your own notebook of songs may not be such a bad thing.)
2. Even if you've performed a song hundreds of times without notes, if it's important to get the lyrics right and it's not a simple, short song, it can be helpful to have some sort of lyric sheet or "cue card" where you can glance at it unobtrusively.

Jim C, you can't maintain eye contact with anyone continuously (that's called staring) -- especially with a whole audience.   Your eyes glance around the room as you're looking at the audience, and a quick glance at a page of music can be hardly more noticeable than blinking.
I just think it's intolerant to dismiss a performer just because there's a music stand or such in front of him/her, even if they obviously know the song and are not just using the song sheet as a substitute for rehearsal.
The analogy to speakers using teleprompters is valid insofar as professionals can often use large-print cue cards or teleprompters without the audience being able to tell that they are using them.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 04:06 PM

Howard: [[Genie said in a post yesterday that he would rather hear a good singer using a book than a mediocre singer without one who forgot the words. ]]
First, I'm a "she."
But did I really say that? If I did It was a slip of the fingers.
I would rather hear a good singer singing from a book or song sheet than a mediocre one (and I'm not necessarily referring to vocal quality) delivering a song totally from memory.

I'd add that if the song is good, I'd rather hear someone sing the lyrics correctly with the aid of a song sheet than hear some of the best verses made up or mediocre lyric lines improvised because the singer, who really did know the song, had momentary memory lapses.

I think the issue of whether you should prepare, rehearse, and memorize your songs is one issue. (Except for very informal song swaps, that's pretty much a given.)   Whether you should ever have sheet music or cue cards, etc., as a PRN memory aid during a performance is a different issue.   

Lest my earlier posts may have suggested I usually perform using books or lyric sheets, I don't -- though I sometimes hand them out at song circles and workshops, especially when I want others to sing along.   (And I do think there are many songs that are far, far better with harmony all the way through and may not even have a chorus.)
The point is that between my professional music gigs and my participation in unpaid jams and song circles, there are well over 1,000 songs that I know by heart (many more, if you include songs that I don't have to back up with my guitar).    Many of these songs do not have a chorus and some have lyrics that are more easily mixed up than others.   I often have to "shift gears" from one day to the next and do an almost entirely different playlist. (I'm doing some sort of theme program for a few weeks and need to switch to another very quickly.) I also jam and share music with different groups, each group having a kind of different repertoire of shared songs. During the course of a year, I really NEED to perform at least a couple hundred songs and be prepared to do hundreds of others upon request (or - to go back to Mary G's initial point - to participate in a song circle that has a specified or unwritten theme).

Pip, several people have suggested that most folk songs have only a few verses or have choruses for people to sing along with. Obviously there are many that aren't that simple.
You say you'd never use a crib sheet to sing 24 verses of Little Musgrave.   But if you wanted others to sing along with you, would you?   I gave "Lorena" as an example of a song I love to play and sing but would just as soon have others sing along with me.
(In jam sessions it's not unusual to have 8 to 10 instruments playing at once. Even if your voice is strong, it's hard for one voice to be heard over 3 guitars, 2 banjos, 2 fiddles, a stand-up bass, an autoharp, and a mando. Having others sing along may be the only way for the vocals to compete with that.)   No matter whether I need the lyric sheet or not, the others usually do. And when I'm asking others to sing along, I don't have the luxury of ad libbing a lyric and having nobody notice.

I don't think anyone here is a fan of having people bury their heads in books or lyric sheets. I think we pretty much agree that if you have to make much use of your printed page it's probably going to make your delivery less powerful and effective.   But if a symphony orchestra or choir can bring you to tears while using sheet music on stands or in folders and making eye contact with the conductor choir director -- not you, the audience -- how can it be that a solo or duo or trio couldn't thrill you and move you if they happened to use a printed page in similar fashion?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 04:28 PM

Warning! Long screed!

One person's viewpoint. Your mileage may vary.

The first live concert of folk music I attended was in 1952. It was sung by Walt Robertson. He had a local television show and had just released a record on Folkways. The concert was in a basement restaurant ironically called "The Chalet," a half-block from the University of Washington campus, and it was quite probably Seattle's first coffeehouse, except that we hadn't yet actually heard of such things as "coffeehouses" yet (other than the places in London where Boswell and Johnson hung out, or the ones in Boston and Philadelphia where Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Paine talked of the Rights of Man and plotted rebellion against King George III).

Walt sang for nearly three hours. A wide range of songs, all accompanied on the biggest guitar I had ever seen (it was a 12-string), from American railroad songs, to Scottish border ballads, to children's songs, love songs, tragic, comic, and bawdy, to sea chanteys, and back around again. From a somewhat shortened version of "Greensleeves" (three verses), with the 12-string sounding a bit like a harpsichord, on up through history to a couple of songs written by Merle Travis. You get the idea.

All from memory. Nary a song book, song sheet, or crib note in sight.

A month or so later, they held a "hootenanny" at the same restaurant. At the time, a "hootenanny" was not a multi-performer concert as it became later, but a free-for-all. Anyone could sing if they wished, in any order (no circle or drawing numbers). If you had a song in mind and there was a pause, just start singing. Or just sit and listen if you wished.

No song books or song sheets.

From that time, on into the late Seventies, if I didn't have a gig somewhere, I've attended maybe thousands of "hoots," generally in peoples' private homes.

No song books or song sheets.

It was always assumed that one learn—memorize—a song before fielding it before other people. If you blew it, no problem. You had a sympathetic audience (everyone else had been there). You'll probably get it letter-perfect next time. Just keep working on it.

Then, in the late 1970s, a couple of brothers (not new to "hoots" and who should have known better) brought a copy of "The Folksinger's Word Book" to a hoot, and sat there singing together out of the book, often not being real sure of the tune and screwing up the words even though they had them right before them. There was a lot of sighing and eye-rolling, not just from the singers, but from the non-singing listeners as well, until finally someone else jumped in, to everyone's relief.

The Seattle Song Circle started in summer of 1977. We sat in a literal circle, went around the circle and when a person's turn came up, they had the options of singing solo, leading the group in a song, requesting a song from someone else, or passing. We sang all kinds of songs, but a lot of sea chanteys because they are easy for a group to pick up, they sounded good even if, unlike a trained chorus, they were a bit ragged, and we could work up a lot of gusto with them. The group stated sounding pretty darn good. And we got invited to perform at the Moss Bay Sail and Chantey festival on the east side of Lake Washington where the schooner Wawona was moored at the time (at a sort of maritime museum). We sang up a storm during the sail-raising (the Coast Guard wanted to check the tackle from time to time and make sure it still worked). I got a chance to sing a bunch of fo'c'sle chanteys in a real, genuine fo'c'sle! And we did a big concert that night!

Nary a book or song sheet in sight.

It wasn't until the mid-1980s that newcomers started showing up from time to time with an armload of song books. And boring the crap out of the "old-timers" at Song Circle by saying, "I just found this song this afternoon, and I'm not too sure of the tune and I don't know the words yet, but—" And the stumbling and dithering their way through the thing (many sighs and much eye rolling).

When this got to be the rule rather than the exception, my wife, Barbara, and I stopped coming to Song Circle. We haven't been for years now.

Last I heard, you had to have a copy of "Rise Up Singing" as a sort of membership card. I have a copy of it, but it sits on my bookshelf, along with other songbooks that I check from time to time if my memory needs refreshing.   Then I put it back on the bookshelf.

I have seen concerts on television of singers such as Luciano Pavarotti, whose head was stuffed with the full scores of several dozen complete opera roles, along with a whole batch of other art songs and Italian popular songs. A few times (such as during the "Three Tenors" telecasts), there were music stands in front of all three singers (Pavarotti, Placido Domingo, and José Carreras). But during the entire concert, I didn't notice them being briefly glanced at more that a couple of times. I can understand why having the music within quick eye-shot for a national or world-wide telecast might be a desirable "safety net," but obviously these three gentlemen knew the material.

I can also see having a song sheet in front of you for a recording session. Because if you have a momentary memory lapse (which can happen to anyone, no matter how seasoned and professional, even on songs that one has sung hundreds of times), that means a re-take, and unless one is recording in one's own home studio, that can get a bit pricey. I'm planning to start recording soon (home studio), and contrary to my life-long practice, I will have song sheets within eye-shot (taped to the mic?) just in case. They will be songs I've sung hundreds of times. The song sheets will be there merely as a safety net on the off-chance that I find myself on the verge of screwing up an otherwise good take.

But when I give a concert or go for a song fest in someone's living room, I have the songs I plan to sing in my head.

I have always been performance oriented. When I first saw and heard Walt Robertson hold about a hundred people enthralled for nearly three hours that evening, I kept thinking, "I want to do that!"

But, as I said above, your mileage may vary.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 04:43 PM

Just as a follow-up: I have seen (live) Pete Seeger, Theodore Bikel, and others blow a song and either cover it very quickly so that most people didn't notice, or, if really obvious, just shrug it off, usually with a chuckle, and keep right on going. Audiences are very forgiving and quickly forget it (as long as the performer doesn't make a big deal out of it!).

On one occasion, Segovia blew a piece really badly and covered it so well that the audience wasn't even aware. Bob Flanary (my classic guitar teacher at the time) and I did notice it, undoubtedly because we both played the piece ourselves.

Dealing well with boo-boos when and if they happen is part of a musical performer's art.

Don Firth