[Formerly BS:] Musical snobbery

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 01:32 PM

Ron Davies: It's also interesting that you have addressed none of my points."

Are you talkin' to me?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 02:44 PM

Dick, I expressed an opinion ("I'd argue that...") which is shared by many people who play and/or enjoy Irish music. Full-set pipes with drones and regs do indeed play harmony but it is relatively spare compared to that supplied by strummers (and, I'd argue, a damn sight more idiomatic). My point was that the tunes themselves contain harmony that works in your mind's ear. I didn't say harmony should be eschewed completely, did I ("IF at all..."). In fact I'm not a purist - I love bands like Patrick Street, De Dannan, the Bothies, Planxty etc. whose harmony playing adds a new (and, to me, valid) dimension to Irish tunes. But when I listen to them I'm listening to bands, not session playing. And I could listen to the pipes all night. As for Carolan, we have no clue as to what harmony might have accompanied his tunes. I don't think we have a single passed-down example. We have the licence to play around with 'em to our hearts' content. But they are not mainstream session tunes in the way that jigs and reels are, and it was the latter that I was addressing.

I'm off to drink beer harmoniously and play tunes, harmoniously or not, right now - see ya later! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 03:30 PM

Don't get your reeds wet!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 06:03 PM

Ron, please learn what you are talking about before making certain statements. Synthesizers and MIDI do not take work away from musicians. I don't know where you get that or why you think it would be true. I have worked in MIDI for over 20 years and own two synths which I use extensively. I know what I'm talking about. You sound like some pathetic old hippy who thinks electronic instruments are against man or will replace us all with machines or something. Utterly ridiculous and laughable.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 07:51 PM

DDT: If you consider that somebody who plays a synthesizer is a musician then fine.    Sorry, I don't.   Synthesizers are the opposite of real music.    And it's you who are showing ignorance--I'm surprised you are not up on recent developments-- if you don't think that musicians lose work when arrangers choose to use a synthesizer instead--which is progressively easier as the synthesizers develop more and more fidelity and range-in any number of instruments.

There are more and more occasions in which management can choose to not have a full stage orchestra or band, due to advances in technology.   And they do. I'm amazed you don't realize this.

You need to do a bit more reading--and perhaps see more stage shows.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 07:53 PM

Yes, GfS, i am talking to you. Let's start with your views on drum machines.   So far you've dodged the question.   What a surprise.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 09:13 PM

Ron, you're putting down virtually every keyboard player currently in existence. Wendy Carlos isn't a real musician? Suzanne Ciani (a classically trained pianist whose synth work is heard in literally hundreds of commercials, songs and computer games since the 1970s) isn't a real musician? Herbie Hancock, George Duke, Keiko Matsui, Joe Zawinul,Rick Wakeman, Keith Emerson, Tony Banks, Robin Lumley, Gary Wright, Daryl Dragon, Jon Lord, Kerry Minnear, etc. are not real musicians, eh? Son, you'd better be able to kick serious ass on your axe to make a statement like that.

A synth is just another instrument to make music with. What sets it apart from other electronic instruments is its astonishingly wide musical vocabulary. In the hands of master musician, it is an awesome thing to hear.

"And it's you who are showing ignorance--I'm surprised you are not up on recent developments-- if you don't think that musicians lose work when arrangers choose to use a synthesizer instead--which is progressively easier as the synthesizers develop more and more fidelity and range-in any number of instruments."

Name a single instance when this has happened. You can't replace a trumpet soloist with a synth in a live situation unless you can mimic one extremely well. That in itself would be an awesome achievement. You can play simple lines. Same with string sections. Background tone coloration is one thing but full orchestration requires a full orchestra. You don't just punch a button and all this prerecorded music spills out. Like any instrument, you have to play it. It would take a huge amount of expertise to imitate a Louis Armstrong trumpet solo with a synth. I don't believe it has ever been done or ever will be.

If synths replaced other musicians that easily, there wouldn't be any. You can make a synth sound like an upright bass--I do it quite a lot (even though I also own and play one) and if you're doing a simple bass line, there's nothing wrong with doing it with a synth but if you think you're going play one like Mingus or Nils Pederson, you clearly have no understanding of how a synth works, and if that is the case, why are talking about them as though you do?

"There are more and more occasions in which management can choose to not have a full stage orchestra or band, due to advances in technology.   And they do. I'm amazed you don't realize this."

Because it never happens. They use a synth when they want to use one. But the vast majority of composers will hire an orchestra when they need an orchestra. Even in the studio, it takes an extraordinary effort to simulate a full orchestra on a synth. Just trying to do a cello concerto would take months or grueling work to simulate it perfectly on a synth and it just can't happen in a live situation. The type of electronic editing required makes that impossible in real time. Believe me, Ron, I've been using synths for a very long time. They have their uses but they have their limitations.

If you say they take work away from musicians, then you might as well say the same thing about DJs. There was a time when the musicians' union went on strike because they said playing recorded music on the radio took away work from musicians. They lost the battle. Those stations that used recorded music couldn't afford to pay real musicians anyway. By the time recorded music became the norm, the entire music industry had changed and those musicians found their services in demand elsewhere--like television and movies.

"You need to do a bit more reading--and perhaps see more stage shows."

Quote me anything you've read that says that musicians are losing their livelihoods to synthesizers. As for stage shows, I don't need to see them--I've been in them.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 10:22 PM

DDT--

If you think that every synthesizer player can also play the piano, you are sadly deluded.

However, I suspect that any concert pianist would have no problem playing a synthesizer.    You like synthesizer "music"--for whatever reason. I don't. No problem. Herbie Hancock, etc, are fine---on the piano. I never said they were not.   If they could only play synthesizer, my opinion of them would go way down. Fortunately, that is not the case--I'm sure they were quaking in their boots at the prospect.

Synthesizers in my view have no place in "folk" music--yet they are infesting it more and more--especially Irish music.    When they put synthesizers in bluegrass, I will stop going to sessions or buying it. Fortunately Bill Monroe, Ralph Stanley, etc. are safely on record already. Perhaps you think a synthesizer would give them some pep. I don't. "Newgrass"--who knows what will happen? That's already not my cup of tea.

I'm a traditionalist. You aren't, it seems.   I won't be coming to any of your gigs, you may be relieved to hear.    And please don't bring a synthesizer to mine.

And we'll get on just fine.

And your reading skills seem to be lacking a bit.   All you have to do is read this thread and you realize how real musicians are under pressure from synthesizers. Our own GfS was waxing lyrical on the wonders of a synth/ electric piano which sounds as good to him as a Steinway.   So, if he had a gig where the sound of a Steinway was desired, do you think he'd have a real Steinway--with somebody who could do justice to it? Give your head a shake.

And he is just dreaming, no doubt.    Plenty of others are actually making the calculation.    If you can't see this, your head is in the sand.

And as I've said more than once, it's not just pianos.   Technology has improved--and continues to do so--such that other instruments can be imitated with amazing fidelity--and more range than the actual instrument. Perhaps you're still living in the 70's. That would explain a lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 11:48 AM

Boris Blank only plays synths as far as I know although I suspect he might be classically trained but I've never heard him play anything but synths. On the piece below, it's synths and samples. And his band--Yello--also do this live.

Swing - Yello

As for folk bands not using synths, that is so untrue that I'm laughing as I type this. My brother's band uses one to imitate a Zydeco accordion because they don't have or know any accordion players. Plus they'd have to hire one every time they wanted to play the song live which is simply out of the question.

I also interjected synthetic thunderstorms with rain as well as a synthetic stream, chirping birds and a dog barking in the distance for another folk band that I helped record some years ago.

Face it, synths are useful as hell and they are here to stay.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 12:05 PM

"So, if he had a gig where the sound of a Steinway was desired, do you think he'd have a real Steinway--with somebody who could do justice to it? Give your head a shake."

I have a couple of dozen piano sounds in my synths from Steinways to cool player piano sounds. So what? That's not putting musicians out of work, Ron. You still have to be able to play a piano for these to be of much use. The great thing about such a keyboard is that my band doesn't have to haul a piano around which would frankly be impossible. We'd have to hope the venue had a piano there and that it's reasonably in tune. MOST keyboardists use these portable keyboards because most bands are their own roadies. We just can't haul a piano around, Ron, sorry about that.

If we go in the studio and there is a Steinway there, fine, we'll use it. If the venue has a piano there, fine, we'll use it. But what if they don't? By your standards, we turn around and go home. Well, real working musicians don't do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 12:36 PM

Boris who?    You were the one who said you didn't recognize some of the current pop stars.    I venture to say more people will recognize Rihanna than Boris.   I recognize her--and don't even ever listen to her.

Sorry, Boris doesn't carry much clout.   The fact he loves sythesizer is not tremendously significant. In the words of my favorite musical analyst, Shania Twain:   "That don't impress me much."

So there may well be other bands which heavily rely on synthesizer.   Fine.   Just please make that plain and I will not be attending their gigs.    There is a wealth of wonderful stuff on YouTube--mostly the older stuff.    But there is also a huge amount of dross--most of which seems to include synthesizers, it seems.


Sure, synthesizers are here to stay.   More's the pity. And they're "useful"--especially in saving money by not hiring the real thing.

"My brother's band..."

QED

As far as I'm concerned, if a zydeco band does not have an accordion but uses a synthesizer instead, it's an ersatz zydeco band. And I'm not alone. Again:   "Ain't Nothin' Like The Real Thing".


By the way, as I said earlier, your reading skills need some work.    I never said said folk bands don't use sythesizers. I said the increasing use of them is a shame.

And as I said, they now plague Irish and pop music.    Perhaps that's just peachy with you. Not with me.

As I noted, I'm a traditionalist. You're not. Different strokes.....

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 01:05 PM

"Boris who?"

Boris Blank from Switzerland. He's recognized as a pioneer in synthetic pop, rock, Latin music and jazz.

"You were the one who said you didn't recognize some of the current pop stars."

That song I posted is from 1982. Yello (who as far as I know broke up long ago) were like gods to the New Wave groups of the 80s although they were not New Wave themselves. They were recording for Ralph Records, an S.F. underground label, for some years prior to that. I was already a big fan of Yello back then so that by the time the New Wave embraced them they were all latecomers to me.

"As far as I'm concerned, if a zydeco band does not have an accordion but uses a synthesizer instead, it's an ersatz zydeco band."

They are not a zydeco band at all. They are a straight folk band--guitars, mandos, banjos, fiddles, bass--the whole bit. But they did ONE SONG in a zydeco vein. With no hope of finding a zydeco player in their area, they used a synth to imitate and it sounds quite convincing.   and they do it very well onstage.

As for taking work away from a real zydeco player, I'm sure a million of them were dying to get that gig.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 04:29 PM

For those who think I'm a snob for disliking rap, here's the lyrics to Li'l Wayne's latest piece of garbage that's causing a ruckus now due to a reference to Emmett Till--never mind the misogyny, racism and drug references. This guy is being called "a rap genius." Well, read for yourself what this genius has to say:

KARATE CHOP
[Intro]
You know, This just some real nigga shit, a real nigga story
You know what I'm saying?

(Hook)
Slang a bunch of narcotics
Pull up in the new 'rarri
Living like John Gotti
Chopping bricks like karate
Drink a bunch of codeine
Serving to the dope fiends
Blowing money, stay clean
Michael Jackson, Billy Jean

[Verse 1: Future]
Got a Panamera round a young nigga neck
Got a young bitch pulling up in a vet
Smoke a lot of kush & I have a lot of sex
Had to beat the grind up, ran up my check
Bitch nigga get money, nigga get that
Roll a blunt of chronic, nigga sell a lot of crack
You can hit a nigga line, order what you want
I can whoop a Maserati, pulling up a donk
50,000 on yo watch, young nigga splurge
Pop a ace of spade bottle, sip a lot of syrup
Keep a young nigga workin' gotta buss a cape
I'mma take a phone call, hustle everyday

(Hook)

[Verse 2: Future]
Whipping up a cake, just to go and snatch a spider
Young nigga play with keys, like a type writer
Al Capone, John Gotti was a nigga idol
I was never snitching, I can put it on the Bible
In a 4 door beamer, driving with a rifle
Nigga where you at, nigga we go pull up on ya
Young Bitch looking like Janet in the 80's
We was grinding up from a tube and a baby
Got the girl dripping wet like a jerry curl
Got a styrofoam cup and its full of syrup
Send it over from Lil Mexico & Let me Work
I can get 36 for a clean shirt

(Hook)

[Verse 3: Lil Wayne]
Pop a lot of pain pills
Bout to put rims on my skateboard wheels
Beat that pussy up like Emmett Till
Yeah....
Two cell phones ringin' at the same time
That's your ho, callin' from two different phones
Tell that bitch "leave me the fuck alone!"
See, you fuck her wrong, and I fuck her long
I got a love-hate relationship with Molly
I'd rather pop an ollie, and my dick is a trolly
Boy, I'll bury you like Halle
And these hoes say I'm blind,
Cause I don't see nothin' wrong with a little bump and grind
Man I just received a package
Them other niggas taxin'
And my pockets so fat, I'm startin' to feel contractions
And my cousin went to jail for them chickens
And he already home and that nigga must be snitchin'
Cut him off like karate!

(Hook)

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 06:46 PM

He could well be a genius. I don't understand the lyrics. There are lots of writers i don't understand. Some of them - you study and end up being rewarded. Not all truths can be simply stated. Some of them - you say - sod it I can't be bothered with.

It remains the artists prerogative to make his statement, and your prerogative to reject what he has to say, or his manner of saying it. That's how it should be in a liberal society.

You may well not approve of the language that he uses. Still where would we be if that were the criterion. James Joyce, DH Lawrence, William Burroughs were all withdrawn from circulation on those grounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 10:03 PM

Ron Davies: "DDT: If you consider that somebody who plays a synthesizer is a musician then fine. Sorry, I don't.

Monterrey Jazz Festivals ALWAYS keeps a Technics PSR-1 electric piano/synth on stage...I guess there aren't real musicians there either.

..and as far as drum machines...the programmable ones? or electronic drums?


DDT, what king of synths do you use?

Something we used to notice..then started saying, when I had the studio in L.A...."You can ALWAYS tell a purist..they're always out of tune!"

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 10:17 PM

A bad mechanic always blames his tools.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 11:31 PM

Ron, a question for you....what do you think of electric guitars??..bass?..Hammond organs??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 04:17 AM

I play only acoustic guitar and sing. Accompanied by, if anything, only a bit percussion, other guitars and if I am lucky enough a brilliant viola player. Very occasionally my son will plug in and give me some lead guitar backing. I tend to listen more to acoustic based music. Find it more organic and it just feels right for me. However I do also like electronic music. I understand that someone can make music now with the help of technology without being really proficient on any instrument. However the fact that they are creating music by whatever means surely means they are a musician. Would we say that Bowie was being a musician when recording Hunky Dory but not during his Berlin period?

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 04:40 AM

He could well be a genius. I don't understand the lyrics." "            .    Your not missing anything.Mind you Shane McGowan did it singing about the world he saw.Imagine the kids head that plugs into that all day.So not so much a snobbery thing more a common sense mental health thing.As

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Guestlex
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 04:43 AM

Just posted itself sorry.. As I mentioned above some do get more positive when they get more skilled.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 05:50 AM

Something we used to notice..then started saying, when I had the studio in L.A...."You can ALWAYS tell a purist..they're always out of tune!"

Do expand on your understanding of "in tune", would you.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 08:55 AM

It's not his idea of "in tune", Steve. Obviously, you haven't participated in any arguements about whether "A" should actually be standardized at 440hz.

Here, selected a random from another website, is a selection of the sort of things that "a purist" might say:

"I've been reading about this as well, but can't come to any conclusions about who exactly changed the standard tuning from A432 to A440. Some say Bach, some Goebbels, it goes all over the place...

Two interesting bits I found said Verdi's music was composed and originally played at A432, and that the original Stradivarius violins were designed to be tuned to A432.

Also 432 squared is 186,624, which comes close to Einstein's figure for the speed of light - 186,282 miles per second.

And, if you plot the Pythagorean tuning for the C-Major scale on a 360 degree wheel, the wheel is based on 16 divisions, and if you set middle C as 256Hz (A432 tuning), you get 16 sections of 16Hz in the wheel.

One thing that caught my eye was when I calculated the hertz frequencies for the C-Major scale in 432. I posted this on my facebook as well, but here it is... I find it fascinating that the cycles per second work out to whole numbers with A432 and NOT with A440. Seems to make sense that this tuning would "feel better" to the human ear."


Please remember two things: A) I did not say this stuff myself
B) You asked. Let's just hope it ends here...

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 11:43 AM

Stim, VERY GOOD!!

It is pretty well recognized that 440 has been standardized as being 'A', however Stim's post may be enlightening for those who are concerned with wish to utilize the numbers that are mathematically consistent with the speed of light..(well done!)...That being said, the expression that I was referring to, about 'purists being out of tune', was aimed at those snobby folks who were too arrogant to either use a 'tuner' or deluded themselves into thinking that they had 'perfect pitch'..and consequently, weren't even properly in tune with themselves!..let alone any other accompanying instruments!!
One thing that musicians should be aware of and discipline themselves about,i s getting used to 'hearing' themselves being out of tune..but getting used to it!...it's much like making a recording, with errors, listening to the recording over and over, and getting used to the errors and writing it off...It's the same lazy process, and really makes an ass of the player...when he THINKS it was 'just great'!
Even if you use a digital tuner to 'lock in' what the frequencies really are, rather than what you THINK you've been accustomed to hearing, use them long enough to get accustomed to the absolute correct tuning. You may fine your ear has some adjusting to do. Remember, your listening audience may not feel like making excuses to themselves as to why it sounds 'OK, when it really isn't....they'll just give you a polite BS 'compliment' and move on to whatever conversation someone else wishes to engage in, without giving you a second thought.
AND, if you sing, for God's sakes, study!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 12:01 PM

DDT et al.--

I'm so sorry to hear about the Monterrey Jazz Festival using synthesizers.   I knew there was a reason I didn't attend.

Nor, with all due respect, will I be attending any gigs of your brother's band--he'll be crushed to hear this.

And as for New Wave, I predict that 20's, 30's and 40's music (not to mention early rock) will be around long after the New Wave has crashed and disappeared without a trace.

I actually have quite a wealth of musical opportunity without ever having to be at an event sullied by a synthezizer.    Already I can't find time to go to all the classical concerts I'd like to--fortunately I'm in a fair number.   Not to mention, doo-wop, bluegrass, Balkan, tradtional country, Sephardic, (real) Western swing, hot jazz, etc, etc.


Look, it's real simple. Some people insist on the real thing. Some will take anything.

You and I have both made it plain on which side of the issue we stand.

I am willing to live and let live. Somehow it seems likely that synthesizers will not go away any time soon--especially given the economic incentive to use them. It's interesting that you are not williing to admit they place--increasing--pressure on real musicians, though I have explained more than once how this happens.   I have also patiently explained that only if synthesizer is the only keyboard a person plays do I consider that person not a real musician.

However for some reason you're not willing to live and let live. I wonder where the intolerance lies. You evidently resent the idea that traditionalists exist.   Too bad.   I am not alone.

But I recognize the limits on my power.   You may not have observed that I do not run the universe.   I however have observed this fact.

And by the way, it's fascinating that, though I've asked more than once, neither you nor GfS have yet given your views on a related topic:   drum machines.    Could it be that you are dodging the issue?    Nah, not a chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 12:38 PM

I am a drummer but I use drums machines extensively. I also use electronic pads. You can sync them together as well as pull out drums voices from my synths and use them all at once. You can also take non-drum voices and put them in the pads and play, say, a string section like a drum. Not only do drummers not see anything wrong with drum machines, most of them make use of them. The better a drummer you are, the better programs you can make up. Phil Collins's drum programs are incredible. I use the Alesis SR-16 which is kind of outmoded now but it still works. Millions of drum sounds and programs in that thing.

GfS: I use a Roland U-20 and a Roland D-10. The U-20 is actually a sample player rather than a true synth although you can do mind-warping things with the sounds. Its keys are weighted like piano keys and its string sections are incredibly lush. Other synths have thin string sections. Both my synths are outmoded now but I still use them. I'd like to get a Buchla Music Box but they are upwards of $10,000 so I guess I'll hold off on that for a while. I use Cakewalk and Sonar software but often resort to my trusty old Alesis MMT-8 sequencer if I'm just trying to get a demo down. If I like the line I played, I can always take it right off the sequencer and drop it into the Cakewalk.

Even though I do a lot of avant-gard, ambient and noise pieces, I still consider myself primarily an acoustic musician.

As for A=432 as opposed to A=440, I'm all for it. I'd love to go back to A=432.

People like Ron, who hide their inability to understand electronics with a veneer of snark, are the ones in the end who will lose relevance. If you have a choice between a musician who plays only acoustic and seems hostile to electronics and a musician who understands and plays both acoustic and electronic, which would you rather pick as a bandmate?

And, Ron, I can keep on answering as much as you wish. No inconvenience for me. Sure, I can live with you sneering down at everybody who doesn't agree with you, it doesn't affect my standing with anyone and I don't tell people that they should just live and let live and forget about arguing and then ask them, "Oh, by the way, what about drums machines? Can't comment on those, eh?" That's clearly perpetuating the argument and not living and letting live. But, as I said, I'm happy to answer any and all questions you may have.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 12:42 PM

Thanks for telling me you use drum machines.   I suppose you're also now going to say they take no work from real drummers.

How detached from reality are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 01:02 PM

only if synthesizer is the only keyboard a person plays do I consider that person not a real musician

What an amazing statement, Ron. Does this mean that, in spite of many years of musical training, of playing with other excellent musicians, of being able to read music proficiently (for example) - in spite of all that, a person choosing to express him or her self purely on a synthesiser is not a "real musician". How on earth can the choice of instrument have any bearing on a person's musical ability? They either play their instrument of choice well, or they don't.

I happen to have a Korg N1 synthesiser, a very fine professional instrument - on which I've played blues, boogie-woogie, jazz and all sorts of stuff. I also play guitar, mandolin, tenor guitar, bass and other stuff. Presumably, if I only played the Korg, I wouldn't be a real musician. But because I play other stuff I am...

Funny old world.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 01:26 PM

They also make MIDI guitars, basses, violins, trumpets, saxes, even cymbals. You plug them into your synth or drum machine (which is really a synth) and program whatever voice you want to use. The beauty of that is several fold: first - these are MIDI tracks and so can be manipulated the same way MIDI can. Second - you can program any voice into these MIDI instruments and play them with that instrument's characteristics. You can take a timpani voice, put it in a MIDI violin and play the timpani as though it was a violin. That's a fantastic expansion of the musical vocabulary. Say you have a MIDI violin but what a bowed bass violin sound--just program the violin with a bass violin sound and saw away. No one can tell the difference. You can even play an extremely fast violin run up the neck and it will sound like the bass is doing it.

Because the tracks are MIDI, you can also change their voices after they were already recorded. Didn't like that trumpet voice you used when you played the MIDI trumpet? Just remove it and assign a new one. No re-recording necessary. What to change the key without altering the tonal characteristics? Just tell the computer to change it to whatever key you want. Want to change just one note in the solo? Bring up that track, locate that note on the graph and change it--any parameter you want such as pitch, tone, duration, volume, etc. or any combination of those. No re-recording necessary. You can speed up the tracks or slow them down and they don't lose their tonal quality. You can bounce tracks all over the place and never lose a bit of sound quality which is impossible with analog tape. You can bounce a track a million times and it still sounds identical to the original track. Can't beat that.

Korg is very good. So is Yamaha.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 02:47 PM

What's remarkable is that a lot of the capabilities of this software is old turn-of-the-20th century technology. Player-pianos or pianolas as they were called used binary language just as today's digital programs do. Anywhere there was a hole in the roll was a 1 and where the paper was unbroken was a 0. When the metal finger that rode the surface of the paper roll encountered a hole, it "fell" through it and activated the key it was attached to and that note played. When the hole moved past the finger, it jumped back onto the surface of the paper turning the key off, so to speak. It's really the identical technology as a simple music box.

When composers used the pianola to punch the holes, they often did it in real time BUT they didn't have to. They could do it note by note by note and many of them did. You stop the roll wherever you wanted and punch all the holes you want to. When you finished punching the piece in, you could go back and add more notes to it if you wished. They often built up their chords to have more notes that a person could play in real time because the pianola gave them that capability. Jelly Roll Morton made great use of that.

So I suppose Morton, Joplin, Lamb, Scott and the other roll-makers were not real musicians.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 02:56 PM

DDT--


So, fine, you don't think a listener should be concerned about whether he is hearing a drum machine or a drum. Nor should the difference between an accordion and a synthesizer imitating an accordion bother him.    And of course he should be fine with a synthesizer imitating a Steinway.


Let's consult an acknowledged expert, a recording engineer who is probably a pre-eminent authority in the entire world, and see what his views are.

He says:    "There's so many gizmos in the studio you can't trust anything you hear anymore."   He doesn't sound as if he welcomes this development, to put it mildly.

And who is this authority?   It's you, DDT, earlier in the thread,

So now you have contradicted yourself.   I have at least been consistent:   I don't like sythesizers, drum machines, etc.

You have been all over the map.

The suspicion arises that you don't believe a word of what you yourself say;   it's just that a good argument gets your juices flowing.

Well, well, well.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 02:57 PM

"synthesizers"

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 03:22 PM

Ron, I wasn't dodging your question. I simply asked if you meant ALL electronic drums/pads or drum machines per se?..
but you DO seem to be dodging mine...electric guitars?..Bass?..Hammond organs.

DDT, I used to have an Alesis-16 as well..but don't have it any more. My keyboards have one built in, and I, sometimes(more not, than more) use it. I've been used to live drummers (my older brother is a drummer and in the 'Rock and Roll Hall of Fame', as one). HOWEVER...sometimes drummers can be a pain in the ass. I'm working with one now who doesn't mind using a drum machine with his drumming...I know some that absolutely will not...personally, it's up to the piece and composer.
IT'S THE MUSIC, DUMMY!..however you get there is how you get there.
I have two wonderful acoustic guitars, an electric built for me at the factory, and a synth/piano. At one time I had 14 guitars, three synths and a regular, acoustic piano..plus an expanded set of top of 'their' line Tama drums.
DDT, I'd love to hear your stuff...any way?

Oh, Ron....sometimes when I write lyrics (or scripts) I use a pen...occasionally a pencil...and woe is me, even a computer!

Here, for those who think it matters... this guy was 14 years old doing this on an electric Example 1

Same kid, on an acoustic Example 2

Personally, I think he kicks ass either way....and really, isn't that the way it should be?

Regards To All You Musicians out there!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 03:38 PM

I love music.
I love listening to music.
I find it takes too much work and diminishes my fun to engage in the assholery required in deciding I don't like something before I hear it.
I'm afraid that sort of thing is what I do with posts at Mudcat, based on who's writing, but music? Nah. I'm not likely to enjoy something just because it has the approved instrumentation, and I'm not likely to hate it if it does. That sort of thing is better left to morons who lump things together and can't judge any one thing on its own merits.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 09:38 PM

"Let's consult an acknowledged expert, a recording engineer who is probably a pre-eminent authority in the entire world, and see what his views are.

He says:    "There's so many gizmos in the studio you can't trust anything you hear anymore."   He doesn't sound as if he welcomes this development, to put it mildly.

And who is this authority?   It's you, DDT, earlier in the thread"

Yeah, but Ron...you sort of cut off the part where I refer specifically to vocal alteration. I was referring to singers who require electronic alteration to sound awesome. The music industry is so image driven that they don't care what the person sounds like as long as he or she has the right look. They can artificially craft a voice or other musical skill-set to that person and then hype the shit out of him or her after the fact. Milli Vanilli was a perfect example. Beyonce lip-syncing at Obama's inauguration or Rihanna lip-syncing at all her shows because she's dancing around too much onstage to sing at the same time is lying. What has that to do with using a synth or a drum machine?

I mean if you use a drum machine and then tell everybody that they are hearing you actually playing the drums and that it's not a drum machine then you're lying. Period. But if you make no such claim then when who cares?

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 09:53 PM

So true..so true...you forgot Britney Spears and Madonna lip synching, as well...but really, most of their stuff is lightweight, commercial pap...but I'd still like to hear your stuff, DDT...I, myself, am a sound engineer as well..so it looks like we have a lot in common.
....and Ron, it's OK...great acoustic players make a LOT of people shut up and listen..but you've got to practice your ass off, and emote from the soul. to get the re-action you want..and I honestly wish you ALL the best with that!!..Honestly!..The public NEEDS more re-enforcement of the inner soul!!..Go for it!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 10:05 PM

Hey, I've performed as as a OMB (One Man Band) and as far as I'm concerned if you can figure out how to get more stuff workin' for ya then all is good... If it means 'lectronics then so be it...

That's just my opinion...

Never mind...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 03:32 AM

I guess this guy's not a musician then:

Nick Pynn

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 04:08 AM

Ah - Nick of "Nick & Dick" (Richard Durrant) fame! Two amazing musicians from my neck of the woods. Nick's a superb violin player and all-rounder - and Richard a fantastic classical guitarist who also indulges in the Gentle Art of Looping.

Their joint album - recorded live some years ago now in pubs all around Brighton - is superb. At the climax of one of the most wonderful tracks recorded ina riverside pub around midnight, Nick fell drunk into the river Adur (so Richard told me). Luckily he hopped out none the worse for a ducking...

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 04:14 AM

Richard Durrant used to run a monthly 'open mic' at the Airport and latterly the Ropetackle in Shoreham (near Brighton, UK). It was only an 'open mic' in the sense that you got invited to play in front of a paying audience, but it was always great fun.

One of his party tricks was to project a video of himself playing guitar on a large screen on one wall of the stage. The piece would then repeat with him playing along live to himself - amazing counterpoints and harmonies. The joke was that, when it had finished, the videod Richard would say to the live Richard, "Hey - that was fun - shall we do another one?". Which was always good for a laugh.

The point of this (for me)? No rules. None whatsoever. Do what you like, and pay the devil.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Allan Conn
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 04:23 AM

"I predict that 20's, 30's and 40's music (not to mention early rock) will be around long after the New Wave has crashed and disappeared without a trace."

I don't think that is likely that the music that appeared out of the New Wave period (ie late 70s early to mid 80s or so) will completely disappear. Some of the music is so established now. For instance "Every Breath You Take" by the Police is now one of the all time highest grossing songs. But the rest of their canon and Sting's solo work is also well established. My son and his mates (in their mid-teens) all know and play Police material. Likewise we've had youngsters in our club playing "Psycho Killer" by Talking Heads. Those over 60 mostly didn't have a clue what it was but that is a different matter. Elvis Costello's "Shipbuilding" has almost entered the general folk (ducks for use of that word in this context)canon now as has the likes of Joy Division's "Love Will Tear Us Apart". Work by The Jam and Weller's solo stuff is unlikely to be forgotten likewise with The Clash etc. We've had people playing Ian Dury material as well as Squeeze. The list goes on and on. Great pop songs out of the likes of Blondie etc. My son even plays some stuff by 'what are now' more obscure bands. eg "Making Plans For Nigel" by XTC. Just touched the surface here of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 05:23 AM

Absolutely, Alan. There's a lot of stuff from the 60s through to the present day that will be iconic songs for new generations for a long time to come. "Disappearing without trace" is most unlikely.....some people here sound a bit like many of my local contemporaries, who seemed to stop listening to new music sometime after their 29th birthdays, and now constantly hark back to "how much better it was in their day" (or before) and how "everything today is rubbish/ sounds the same"....pretty much what my parents used to come out with in the 60s!.

I play versions of Arcade fire's "Intervention", British Sea Power's "Canvey Island" and Bon Iver's "Flume" at open mics, and the youngsters there are often very surprised that someone pushing 60 has even heard of the bands, never mind likes to cover their songs..... while at the same time those youngsters are themselves covering songs like "Hotel California", "White Rabbit", "Wish You Were Here" and "Wild Wood"...OK, Wild Wood's only 20 years old, but the others are over 40 years old, and going strong.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 05:28 AM

Will: The point of this (for me)? No rules. None whatsoever. Do what you like, and pay the devil.

Absolutely! That's what I love about the Bull sessions....jigs, reels and hornpipes alongside ballads, old music hall songs and the odd bit of Pink Floyd....and it's all just music....no-one commenting on eras, whether a song or tune is "real" music or not...just a lot of people having fun and also entertaining the other customers!

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 05:45 AM

"synthesizers"

From Stockhausen to Daphne Oram to Delia Derbyshire to Forbidden Planet to Sun Ra to Pink Floyd to Popul Vuh to Klaus Schulze to Kraftwerk to Giorgio Moroder to Human League to New Order to Soft Synthesises and Neo-Analogue and beyond, the most significantly & amazing music of my lifetime has been realised by purely electronic means. I love synthesisers & count them as the most defining musical instrument of our age - quite possibly the only 'real' one to have given voice to a plethora inner dreams, myths & mysteries as part of the overall Tradition of human music making these past 50,000 years.

Whilst it's all a matter of taste and opinion, it's worth remembering that in all this time (i.e. 50,000 years) the single most important component of music has remained unchanged. Indeed - whatever the means of musical production, without THE EAR none of it would matter anyway. AIR is pretty essential too of course, otherwise any given MUSIC is just as REAL & AUTHENTIC as any other.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Allan Conn
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 07:42 AM

"just a lot of people having fun and also entertaining the other customers!"

We are the same at Kelso. We specifically named the club "Kelso Folk & Live Music Club" to try and show we wish to have a place for folk music but not restrict it to folk music. Any type of music is welcome and one can hear Scottish music and other traditional music through to African drumming through to jazz, classical music and popular music from any era and people's own compositions. We start off with an open mic at 8pm in a non-licensed premises which tends to be more singer-songwriter, blues, folk-revival and popular tunes though the odd traditional player attends too. Then we go down the Cobbles Inn after 10pm where the night normally starts off on traditional fiddle based tunes and Scottish songs then through the evening gets more diverse. It doesn't please everyone (what does?) but it seems to please most people.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 09:37 AM

"Musical" and "snobbery" don't go together. A musician is open to anything rather than to condemn it because it doesn't fit that musician's framework.

I mentioned before that I don't like Schoenberg and the Twelve Tone theory of music but I would be the last person to say that Schoenberg wasn't a great musician.

I feel that way about some forms of heavy metal, rock and roll in general and rap.
There is value in every music and that is why it's produced.

I have preferences as most do but the condemnation of a musical style generally makes no sense to me.   

The attitude of "snobbery" coming from folkies, which I have encountered, is a form of ignorance about music in general. The only way to really appreciate folk music, jazz or so-called "classical" is to look at the big picture of music and see how each style fits in.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 01:38 PM

And by the way, what are your views on drum machines?   Just fine by you?

Just fine by me anyway. And sampling. And programming. And looping. And Glory Be to the Amen Break!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SaFTm2bcac

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 02:57 AM

Here's a synth piece played completely 'live' at an 'open mike'

No 'pre-programming'..all live! Every note!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 04:27 AM

This is a track from a suite I wrote many years as incidental music to a theatre production of "The Wind In The Willows". This particular track is background music to Mole's sinister excursion into the Wild Wood on a bleak, cold winter's day, where he encounters evil creatures and sudden snow as night falls... All played on my Korg N1 keyboard...

The Wild Wood

Best played through loudspeakers - loud.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 04:39 AM

Will, for some reason my computer isn't playing it...but I SHALL listen tomorrow, on another unit...and I really understand about 'LOUD'..(and clean!). Glad to see you posted it!!

Warmest Regards!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 07:06 AM

Nice one, Will!

Have you explored the weird world of Korg's new range of analogue ribbon synths at all? Having been hooked on the Kaossilators for the last few years, I'm now enthralled by their Monotron series - pocket size synths coming in at around £35 a pop! Toys or true folk instruments?? Their pretty amazing things anyway. They also do the Monotribe, which is slightly bigger, but still evasive of anything too conventional. Here's a piece I did last week, in real time (no dubs), entirely improvised, just using the 'Tribe + some cheapo FX thrown in for good measure....

https://soundcloud.com/eleanors-visceral-tomb/take-me-to-your-lieder