BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 12:20 AM

... from one of the internal BBC links on that page...

"In 1999 the Macpherson Report branded London's Metropolitan Police institutionally racist. The report, which followed the Met's failure to successfully prosecute a gang of white youths for the murder of Stephen Lawrence, found ethnic minorities in Britain felt under-protected as victims and over-policed as suspects."

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 12:23 AM

This investigation will be a veritable Pandora's Box, I'd wager

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 12:27 AM

oops - I mean British public not British publice.

No insult intended.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 12:49 AM

Very Freudian, Diana

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Reginald Richley
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 01:24 AM

How relevant is Wilmott & Young's 'Family & Class in a London Suburb' to all of this, does one think?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 01:27 AM

Nice one, Reginald!

That's all we need!

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:22 AM

That's a pretty good book.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 09:04 AM

Dave O , you are the journalistic editor to the end.


Whether you define this as a murder or a shooting incident I wish to note that this crime/mistake/incident is a (micro) casebook study in the process of authoratative decisions which are IDENTICAL to the (macro) authoratative decisions which govern the release of NUCLEAR WEAPONS and not just low velocity bullets.

Tracking a radar blip coming from a suspicious direction, it can not be ascertained immediately if it is a weather satillite or a meteor.

There have been over 10 such incidents when a nuclear launch has been initiated and on standby due to suspicious data. Some were recalled with seconds to spare.

Ratchet up fear enough and all you are responding to is fear.

Should fear "win" next time,
and if there are people left in authority to respond, I would expect them to say...
"We had NO CHOICE".

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 09:14 AM

Dave O

btw, In my 20's I undertook training in propoganda techniques on my own, attracked the attention of the CIA and had a hell of a time getting them off my back. But I have told that story here numerous times already.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 02:01 PM

From Amnesty International:

"The organization urges the investigation to examine the full circumstances leading up to the shooting, including what the terms of the current rules of engagement are, including the policy which permits officers to "shoot to kill", i.e. to shoot in the head, suspects believed to be suicide bombers, reportedly codenamed Operation Kratos; how the operation was planned; how the police officers were briefed and what orders they were given; whether a senior officer was contacted before action was taken; whether a sufficient warning was given; and whether the action taken by the officers was fully in compliance with international human rights standards concerning the use of force in the context of law enforcement."

...and yes, it was five shots to the head after the victim tripped and fell.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 02:06 PM

" ...and yes, it was five shots to the head after the victim tripped and fell."

You sound very sure of yourself.

The inquest said 7 in the head and one in the shoulder. What else aur you sure of

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 02:11 PM

google Amnesty International.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 02:15 PM

"google Amnesty International." why?

The man mistaken for a suicide bomber by police was shot eight times, an inquest into his death has heard.

Brazilian Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder, at Stockwell Tube station, south London, on Friday.

Det Insp Elizabeth Baker revealed the details at a hearing in London.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 02:42 PM

My sympathies to the people of London and those that have lost loved ones there recently. Not only do you have to contend with lunatic bombers, but also plain clothes, trigger happy hit squads.

Why was a suspect terrorist not dealt with before he boarded public transit? Were the police looking for a bit of PR by allowing him to get as far as the tube? This incident would have all the hallmarks of the Keystone Cops, if it weren't so tragic. I doubt it would make very many feel more secure.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 02:44 PM

The official count is that the Police fired 8 shots into Jean Charles de Menezes.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 02:46 PM

He boarded a bus before he got to the tube...

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 03:17 PM

Perhaps people on buses are more expendable. Yes, he boarded a bus before he got to the tube, both are public transit in the UK, I believe and your point is?

As some one posted up thread, since he was a suspected terrorist at the outset, what the f#ck were they waiting for? An arrest prior to him getting as far as he did would seem a far more intelligent tactic. Gee, we'll just watch him and see if he blows up anything? Better PR for the police if they do a deadly deed in the the Underground?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 03:23 PM

I wonder how his family stand for compensation now it has emerged he was illegally in Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 03:36 PM

The Amnesty International article sighted eye-witness accounts. It was before the hearing. They also said he was pushed to the ground not that he tripped and fell.

I hope there is a very thorough investigation and some reports have indicated that the family will sue.

I agree with Metchosin. Why would they let him board a bus if they thought he had explosives?

I really have to applaud the people of London. They are handling this very well. Stoic is the the best word I can think of. I hope the people of all the many cultures in London reach out to one another and remain strong.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 03:59 PM

Guest...Mr Jack Straw has just stated that to his knowledge the murdered man was, "here lawfully"

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:13 PM

Guest, why don't you just come right out and say, you wish the police would shoot all those funny foreign men that come to your little island and get it back on the anglo/saxon track again?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:30 PM

First to the mechanics of a head shot. When one is taking out someone with a shot to the head, and they are armed, it is very important that the links to the spinal column are severed. This is why the preferred shot is behind the ear. When one doesn't have perfect conditions for this shot, then a number are placed. This is important to eliminate the involuntary twitch that could set off an explosive, or pull the trigger on a gun.

Second, it was a tragedy. Yes there should and will be an inquest. An error appears to have been made. Very sad, and condolences to the family. I am quite sure the police officer will have much to deal with.

But I ask again. To those that are so quick to judge, what if he had the explosives and your child was killed? I am quite sure you would be right there with criticism.

Those here that just like to bitch and hear themselves do it are transparent as hell.

Mick, feeling a bit grumpy today.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: ard mhacha
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:36 PM

Dianavan, I really have to applaud the people of Iraq who are suffering this terrible ordeal daily, please don`t fall into the trap of believing that the English are the only people in the world who can show courage in the face of terror.
The citizens of Iraq have been killed by terror bombings from the air, they have been killed in countless thousands, why count as the US says they are only Arabs, let us all have a minutes silence at the week-end for the Iraqi innocents who have been bombed into oblivion, some chance of that happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:52 PM

Guess it depends from where the standpoint of your bitch lies as to whether or not one is entitled to post one's opinion, eh? Without being transparent, that is.

If my child had been on the bus he boarded, your goddam right I'd be there with the criticism! How the f#ck did he get even as far as boarding a bus if the police were tracking his movements? What is so difficult to comprehend about that?

Susan, also feeling very grumpy.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:55 PM

The actual killing was the culmination of an operation that was pretty evidently botched. It has all the marks of a panic attempt to rectify something that had gone badly wrong.

A man who is believed to be a suicide bomber is allowed to get on a bus and travel through crowded streets for several miles. When he is at the entrance of a tube station he is alerted to the fact that he is being followed, in such a way that he is able to get down to the platform and on to a train full of people. He is puyrsued and forced to teh griound so that he is immobilised and then shot eight times.

The actual shooting isn't by any means the only question, or even the cetral one. The real question is, how could it possibly happen that these officers found themselves in a crowded tube train with someone they were convinced was about to explode a bomb, so that it must have seemed there was no alternative but to kill him? How could this happen in the light of the fact that a sizeable team of experienced and trained professionals had been in his presence ever since he had left his home quite a few miles away?

There appears to be a level of professional incompetence here which is frightening. To adapt the words of the Duke of Wellington referring to his army "I don't know if they frighten the enemy, but By God they frighten me..."
............................

But I don't know where people get the idea that killing a bomber is a reliable way of stopping the bomb exploding. It'd be the easiest thing in the world to rig a device so that the very act of killing the bomber would set the bomb off. You wouldn't need anything more complicated than something like a clothes peg held in the hand, wired up to a detonator in a Dead Man's Switch arrangement. If they haven't done that already I can't imagine it'll be long before they do. They may be mad, but they aren't stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:04 PM

Having read all these posts, perhaps the most chilling is Kendall's contribution: "Damndest case of suicide..." or words to that effect. If people who have previously presented themselves as reasonably intelligent can be reduced to this gloating mentality, then god help us.

I don't always see eye to eye with Big Mick, and not entirely in the case of his posts in this thread either, but I can see where he's coming from. Part of the problem about discussing a catastrophe like this death is is that there has long been a gulf between the US and th UK about how these matters are viewed. Many in the UK, including me, are horrified to see that gap narrowing as the UK moves a step nearer the adoption of US values, where police sootings have long been a fact of life and death.

Peace facetiously said in response to someone "let me know if it works" referring to the UK policy of an unarmed police force. Well the fact is that it did work, for many gnerations. Even in the present situation, in which the tabloids among others are doing their best to whip up hysteria, most police are unarmed. But those days are numbered. They are numbered because of a sea-cahnge in the values of western governments. Nowadays our leaders brasenly brush off rebukes from Amnesty, Human Rights Watch etc, whereas any adverse report from such organisations would have caused the deepest shame earlier within my own lifetime.

Exactly 25 years ago, the US did its best to wreck the Olympic spirit, by boycotting the Moscow Olympics. Why? Because the USSR had invaded Afghanistan! Now the world superpower believes it can invade Afghanistan or anywhere else with impunity. Fawning regimes like Britian's, Egypt's, and the ertwhile government in Spain, think they can trot along lending their support from the rear, again with impunity. They can't.

The result is a world in which the once dinstinguished commentator Brian Walden says that no measure that would be too much if it would prevent more deaths from suicide bombing. In other words a world in which buses stop only at designated points where scanning equipment can be available, and in which 30-minute check-in times are imposed on people wanting to travel by Tube.

Walden and his ilk would deprive us of every liberty we ever had if we could only retain our freedom to slaughter innocent civilians in "far away countries of which we know nothing."

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:22 PM

Peter, a well reasoned (as usual) post. I remember another Olympics in which a bunch of athletes guilty of nothing more than being from Israel were taken captive and butchered. Seems wrecking the Olympic spirit is not the exclusive domain of the US and the west.

I am in agreement with the legitimate aspirations of the Palestinians. I agree that Iraq was a horrible blunder and that it was not launched for legitimate reasons. I even understand the frustration of outgunned fighters using desperate measures.

What I am in disagreement with here is the same round of folks that never miss an opportunity to complain. I am feeling that it isn't about legitimacy, but rather to be negative about the West no matter the circumstance. One cannot rationally explain what happened here, because in these situations one doesn't have time to rationalize. One must react. And damned if you do and damned if you don't.

This was a horrible tragedy for all parties, especially the young man and his family. Some folks here need to drop the phoney intellect arguments and just admit that they love these types of things because it gives them ammo in there obsessive need to criticize.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:40 PM

Great stuff Peter and good to see you back.
We're still struggling on against the powers of darkness...Shakibus and the orcs.
Look forward to your views on the terrorist situation...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,02:46 PM
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:44 PM

"both are public transit in the UK, I believe and your point is"

The one that you failed to make until later...

Why wait til he went underground with it?

Chill out, for fuck's sake, Susan

You're acting like one of those cops...

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:49 PM

What exactly is Operation Kratos? Shouldn't the public be informed of this new policy. I know if I were visiting London I would want to know about it since I was under the impression that the police over there did not carry guns.

I hear its "shoot to kill" but others say, no, you must first use reasonable restraint. Others say the orders must come from above.

Does anybody know what Operation Kratos entails?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: jpk
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:49 PM

lest we now know why the marksmanship was so good[better than the american police generally]they had him caught and was holding him down so the gun could be stuck in his ear[symbolism]lest here in the states they normally stop shooting when the suspect is on the ground.   but i guess i can understand not shooting untill you had him at blank range[might hit explosives if any otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:52 PM

A quick google, and you're there....

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:53 PM

,,, Operation Kratos, explained (as much as they can, dianavan)

I agree Kevin, a cracker book.

Not entirely irelevant

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:53 PM

Some people just love to think the worst, dont they, as long as it supports their political case. Maybe the people who let him on the bus didnt think he had any explosives. Maybe the policeman who shot him thought he had. Perfectly feasible, yes? Presumably it wasnt the same policeman.I'm not saying that is the case, but it seems as likely as any other explanation. And considerably more likely than other theories expressed in this and other threads, such as the suggestion that the police are out to execute people for being black(or possibly, in this case, a bit brown). If that was really the case, it's surprising they've only found one so far, given that London is a rather cosmopolitan city.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 06:07 PM

Greg - I think this incident rates right up there with the "worst".

It isn't wrong for people to think, especially at this time in our history. Everything is changing but this particular incident not only killed an innocent it has also severely undermined the confidence of the public, including Muslims who were being asked to co-operate.

Why is it that co-operation is a one-way street? Co-operation requires the participation of all those involved. Why would anyone co-operate with a bungling police force? Thats the underlying tragedy of this incident.

To beat terrorism, their has to be an atmosphere of trust, respect and co-operation. The London police just shot themselves in the foot and that puts everyone at risk. Al-Qaeda must be jumping for joy.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: jpk
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 06:15 PM

not just the foot,they had the man down, almost under control.
it was more like shooting fish in a barrel.or a steer in the slaughter house.next are they gone shoot a deaf man because he does nt stop when they yell halt.it's happend before.[dif cir still just as bad]

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 06:18 PM

Several posters have mentioned that the shoot to kill policy is no good if the individual with the bomb has a "dead man's switch", and that terrorist organizations will adopt that, if they haven't already.   Think about that for a moment.

A dead man's switch has to be held open. That means that the carrier has to maintain a constant muscle tension to hold the switch. If I were a terrorist leader/planner I'd be very shy of that approach, because of the possibility--nay, the likelihood--of the operative's stumbling, or having a sneezing fit, or being bumped in a crowd, maybe just startled, his switch hand getting tired and just wanting to shift his grip, or even just his attention wandering. and then what do we get? We get an impressive explosion in the wrong place, before the operative gets to the target. Then we've lost an operative, we've lost our bomb, we've lost surprise.

I really don't expect to find them using a dead man's switch.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 06:20 PM

It would certainly be that last thing you will ever expect, again

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 06:22 PM

Tír Eoghain fuck off and die you murdering fenian scum

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 06:45 PM

Don't waste your time with him. He showed what a thick gob shite he was yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 06:51 PM

How did he do that, guest?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 06:55 PM

... got sick of talking about your own troubles, so you feel live reliving the old days?

Start a thread, and let's get to it, then....

Now.... write 100 lines of:

I shall not live with my head up my arse

You're a fucking joke, mate

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 07:12 PM

I'll tell you this, Guests and others, though...

The North of Ireland has roughly 1 1/2 million people living there.
Yeah?

How many in England?

How difficult was it for the cops and Brits to keep a handle on things in the North?

How many people in England again?

How clever are you?

You're troubles are only beginning, pal.

And you want to talk about us?

Is that a serious case of head-up-the-arsery, or wha?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 07:20 PM

Any of you read 'Family & Class...'?

.. and it's all just a little case of history repeating...

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 07:26 PM

It'd be very easy to have a Dead Man's Switch which could be activated at will by the bomber when they found themselves in a situation where they felt at risk of being captured, for example passing through a checkpoint. Anyone with the skill to make a reliable and effective bomnb would be able to produce something like that. (Aren't we all familiar with theeh scene in theeh films where the villain or the hero removes the pin from a hand grenade, and holds the firing mechanism open, as a way of deterring captors from shooting and so setting of an explosion that will kill them?)

My point is, the assumption that killing a bomber is a certain way of stopping them letting-off their bomb is a very suspect one. When former head of the London Metropolitan Police Force Lord Stevens wrote this week "There is only one sure way to stop a suicide determined to fulfil his mission: destroy his brain instantly, utterly", he was making that assumption, and it just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Perhaps killing a captured bomber might improves the odds, at least until the bombers wise up to the tactic - but there's nothing "sure" about it. For all we know they're already using such devices.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 08:01 PM

... and before y'all start going on about fascism and the like...., remember that we, the Nationalists in the North of Ireland, had the ignominious distinction of battling the first excrement pile of what was to later become Neo-Nazism, in the form of The Tartan Gangs.

We now have Neo-Nazism in the extreme right-wing of Unionism.
And we're battling against that at present.

Make no mistake here, folks.

I would doubt that any Nationalist in the North would gloat over what you are about to go through, because we've been through it ourselves... and are still going through it, albeit in slightly different circumstances.

However, if you wish to keep on perpetuating the myth, by calling people 'Fenian Scum', and the like, then go ahead...

I, for my part (and possibly the rest of the lads), will remind you without standing on too much ceremony where the nub of your problem lies.

You know it's true.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 10:44 PM

greg stephens, according to the police, he was a terrorist suspect the moment he left his doorstep. Remember the stuff about the bulky jacket? It would seem like the logical time to check him out.

Why keep waiting to see what he would do? "Wow!he didn't explode at the bus stop. Great!", "Phew! He didn't blow up on the bus! That's nice." Great senario if you expect your security system to be run by drama queens. Lousy way of preventing a serious incident.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 07:14 AM

You're arguing from hindsight, Metchosin.

If the police was sure from the onset they had to prevent a serious incident their acting was lousy. But that's not how it goes.

- A suspect (only reason for the suspicion: the address) leaves the house. Let's follow him to find other suspects or a hideout.
He enters a (perhaps quite empty) bus: Let's follow him
- He has a bulky jacket: He could be transporting a bomb or be on a suicide mission or just so: Let's follow him and watch closely. Meanwhile phone to get permission to shoot, just in case.
- He goes to a tube station (more people around than in the bus): It's getting more risky, let's challenge him to find out whether he is a terrorist or innocent.
When challenged he runs and jumps a barrier: Then and only then with seconds to go the idea 'we have to act immediately' comes in their minds and they act as trained.

With him not starting running he'd be still alive. But from his position I also can understand why he started running. There are a lot of hypothetical scenarios in which running and jumping was the best action. Unfortunately, in the actual case it wasn't. If he had had the idea they wanted to check him for a bomb he'd stopped, smiled at them and very slowly opened his jacket.

Two (groups of) persons acting with no knowledge what was in the others mind(s). Acting wrongly and quickly based on false hypotheses.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 07:25 AM

Thick gobshite, eh?

Look how far that thinking has gotten you in the past.

Take the lid off the jam-jar you live in, and jump out every once in a while

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: freda underhill
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 08:17 AM

from Human rights lawyer discusses police killing