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BBC 4 folk program
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: John MacKenzie Date: 04 Mar 06 - 01:49 PM So Harriet Simms is from Topic, do you think then she will push people not already recorded by Topic, or wanted by them? That in a nutshell is what I mean when I say 'the chosen few' the ones they always approach when they are stumped for a programme idea. Then one of them remembers the existence of folk music, albeit something they saw on telly, and guess who's on telly most often folk wise? Sorry to be cynical but this was not a fair representation of folk as seen in the clubs, or even in the festivals {most of them!} Giok |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: greg stephens Date: 04 Mar 06 - 06:53 PM Repeat starts in 5 minutes. |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: Andy Jackson Date: 04 Mar 06 - 07:11 PM Well I'm going to record and eventually watch the repeat tonight, before I make my comments. But it is revealing that there could be a connection between the artists featured and the allegiances of a main organiser. Hmmm, is there a song there? |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: greg stephens Date: 04 Mar 06 - 07:15 PM The concert as broadcast had a fatal mistake. Whether this was in the editing, or the initial set list I dont know. But it started off with the two best numbers. After that, you just get progressively irritated. By the by, ten out of ten to the trombonist. The spirit of Ory lives on. Good lass. |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: GUEST,A.G.A. Date: 04 Mar 06 - 08:48 PM I didn't see Friday's showing but I just watched tonight's repeat. I think I must have watched a completely different programme to all you whingers. But perhaps it was because I took it at face value and wasn't expecting a concert of traditional songs or a cosy evening in a folk club. So: I saw Eliza Carthy sing with fire and energy. I saw June Tabor passionately involved with her two songs - Lili Marlene gave me goose pimples. I was transfixed by Lou Rhodes - I have just been straight to Amazon and ordered her album, even though it doesn't seem to have that P.J. Harvey song she did on it. I was intrigued to hear what Sheila Chandra could do with a British traditional song and would like to hear more (I thought she'd retired from live performance some years ago because of nerves). I saw the smiles of enjoyment on Norma Waterson's face and on the faces of the musicians. I loved the large band arrangements being away from predictable folk band diddly-diddly or thudding folk rock, especially what they did behind Norma singing Tom Waits' 'Strange Weather'. I thought Kathryn Williams and Vashti Bunyan were a bit weak, but they had what - 3 songs in 90 mins? Somebody above wrote that the concert was put together by Harriet Simms but I understood that Kate St. John (the sax, oboe player in the band) had a lot to do with it - it was staged once before at a venue in Ireland last year I believe. I thought she did a fantastic, imaginative job, especially if the arrangements were hers. So I'm wrong and you're all right? It seems to me you all decided you weren't going to like any of these Folk Britannia programmes before you watched them. Some of the things I've read above, comments on Billy Bragg for example, are completely out of order. I don't think you lot will ever be satisfied, you just sit on your fat elderly arses and moan about anything other people do. Take a good look at what you've written and thank god the general public don't see this forum or they'd never come near folk music and so-called folk fans in a million years. |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: nutty Date: 05 Mar 06 - 02:37 AM You have your opinion A.G.A. and we have ours. I agree that as a concert it did have some merit, but if you believe that that performance is indicitive of the best of today's folk scene, then I suspect that your experiences are severely limited. Folk Britannia was a showcase and it deserved much better. |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: George Papavgeris Date: 05 Mar 06 - 02:43 AM That's what's wonderful about taste, GUEST, A.G.A. - it varies from person to person. So don't generalise ("...you all decided you weren't going to like any of these Folk Britannia programmes ...I don't think you lot will ever be satisfied, you just sit on your fat elderly arses and moan about anything other people do"). You liked what you saw? Good. Others didn't. Furthermore, some of those "others" had higher expectations given the calibre of some of the participants and especially given the objective of these programmes. Don't lash out at people for having a different opinion to yours; if you do, it colours and qualifies your own opinion. |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: greg stephens Date: 05 Mar 06 - 03:26 AM I watched the whole thing again in fact. A lot of hidden treats the secodnd time around. I found the concert better as a repeat, but even less suitable for its function in the "Folk Britannia" series. The anonymous pro-voice(so fa unique) a couple of posts berates anybody with reservations about it as having a fat arse and being elderly. Are to be believe that young people tend to go for thaat sort of thing, and will flock to the folk banner when they see it? I somehow doubt it. I suppose I am getting a touch on the elderly side, though my arse is fairly skinny. I must say I dont go complaining about everything, in fact I saw the best performance I've ever seen on the English folk scene only last summer. And the occasional audience shots at the Barbican showed the sort of demographic you get used to at folk events: not exactly fresh from the kindergarten. And actaully it is observable there is a greater youth market opening at the moment fro folk music of the old definition, as well as for the acoustic singer-songwriter type. So I think any attempt to describe any adverse reaction to "Daughter of Albion" in youth terms is pretty much doomed to failure. Some other criticism has been voiced because a lot of Topic artists were in the concert, and it was apparently organised(a lt least in part)by someone to do with Topic. I've no knowlege of this, but if it's true, so what? Why shoudn't a record company promote its artists? That's what they are for. And in any case, as Topic is pretty much synonymous with folk in Britain, it would be a bit difficult to set up a high-flying event that wasn't stuffed with Topic types. We can quibble about the use of the "Daughters of Albion" concept to finish the "Folk Britannia" series. But surely Tabor, Carthy and Waterson choose themselves inthis context? That is quality, fame and importance, not record label. |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: fat B****rd Date: 05 Mar 06 - 04:50 AM Quite right, Greg and Grecko. I enjoyed most of the programme because it doesn't matter to me wether it's acceptable to anybody else or not. Obviously the Beeb don't realise that the use of the word "Folk" implies just that,i.e. a particular style of music with certain boundaries. But to repeat, each to their own and quite right. |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: Eye Lander Date: 05 Mar 06 - 05:11 AM I think it's all a matter of personal taste and everyone is entitled to their opinion. |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: GUEST,DB Date: 05 Mar 06 - 05:26 AM Dear GUEST A.G.A, What a lovely pink, fluffy world you must live in! A world in which everything is wonderful and fabulous and which must never be sullied by a word of criticism or dissent. Well, on Friday night I saw the music I love mis-represented by our national television station and it annoyed the hell out of me and I'm not ashamed to say so. In the real world there seems to be an awful lot of silliness and pandering to the lowest common denominator around and if it's not challenged it will get worse and worse and all of the wortwhile things, which make life worth living, will disappear forever - but what do you care? Let's not make a fuss ... |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: greg stephens Date: 05 Mar 06 - 06:28 AM Eye Lander: you're dead right it's a matter of personal taste, and we arae all entitled to our own. But I think you are trying to imply that "therefore it's not worth discussing". Well, in this case it certainly is. What we have had in the last segment of this thread is a cross-section of folkies(selected not by musical preference, but by access to an obscure TV channel): and that to me makes it not a bad cross-section, and not likely to be wildly biassed in any particular musical direction. And the near unanimous reaction to the programme is that (a) it had plenty of good musicians in it but(b) it was not a fitting flagship programme to round off the BBC's unprecedented decision to organise a whole series round Britfolk. Sure, these are personal opinions. But it is the collective feeling of the people with most reason to love the music and support it. So how come the programmers are so woefully out of touch with the fans? That is the question being discussed hear: we are not just saying "do you prefer Marmite to Bovril, or carthy to Rusby?" or whatever, |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: akenaton Date: 05 Mar 06 - 07:02 AM Guest DB is correct in my opinion. I'm also disturbed by the direction that "folk" music is moving in. Always away from the roots of the music and towards a glitzy money driven "psuedo folk". Who ever thought we would ever have to endure National Award cerimonies in folk music? There's another thread started about inclusivness in folk music, and thats whats being lost. people have stopped listening to the music in large numbers because they can no longer relate to what is being written and the way in which it is being presented. I have a friend who is one of the best writers of Scots song in the country . A truly wonderful communicator, whos work is full of all the things which define folk music, satire, pathos,comedy, emotion,and righteous fury. A person who should be a "National treasure" finds it hard to have his music circulated because the record company has pronounced that it won't sell well enough to make it viable. This cornerstone of our music is being deprived of a platform, while the BBC promote an image which is certain to turn off 99% of the people who view it. Much of the blame admittedly lies with the "folk community" who often like to keep our wonderful secrets to ourselves. But if we want folk music to become popular again, we must start to play to our strenths not our weaknesses....Ake |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: John MacKenzie Date: 05 Mar 06 - 08:05 AM Is there not enough talent in our 4 nations to sustain a single programme related to each one, followed perhaps by a concert featuring songs and performers drawn from all 4 traditions? That in my opinion would fit the Folk Brittania label better than what would appear to have been an Anglocentric programme. No I'm not waving my Scottish Nationalism flag here just think all corners of the union deserve to be equally represented. It would have improved both the balance and the content if properly done. Giok |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: akenaton Date: 05 Mar 06 - 08:23 AM I think thats a very good idea Jock. Dont know if you caught the recent Highland sessions on BBC4, which were a great success, exploring the links ...and differences in Scots and Irish traditional music. The programme also promoted a good debate in "Footstompin'" on national attitudes to traditional music...Ake |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: Dave Sutherland Date: 05 Mar 06 - 08:27 AM Hi GUEST A.G.A. I am well over 50 and take a size 40" waist in jeans;I have praised parts and expressed disappointment in parts of "Folk Britannia" I have also got Tim Van Eyken (one of the brightest of the new wave of young folk singer/musicians - I'm sure you are aware)booked at my club tonight. Sorry I don't fit entirely into your generalisation. |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: GUEST,Pootle Date: 05 Mar 06 - 08:59 AM I thought the the Daughter's of Albion concert was a real disappointment and a wasted opportunity to introduce non-folkies to the music that we love. If it had been my first introduction to British folk music I wouldn't have bothered to look any further into the tradition. I think Eliza Carthy was it's only saving grace and even her performance wasn't as passionate as it usually is. It should have been so much better. |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: GUEST Date: 05 Mar 06 - 09:23 AM Ake, your posting is full of contradictions. You want the music to be popular again, but you're against those devices which attempt to make it popular ie award shows etc. The world we live in is a world of celebrity and high profile. The music needs to address this. If you want to watch what's popular watch the talent shows where working class people from Wigan come on and sing in ludicrous American accents for ecstatic audiences. These progs are watched by millions, This is the music of the people today. The dirgy, pompous,stuff served up by so many in clubs and concerts will never be popular at that level. Your friend is no doubt excellent, but is what he does the stuff to get that screaming, cheering talent show audience up on its feet? Our music will never be popular or mass media, but I'm sure the people in the folk world will always turn on any performer who leaves them and eventually gets through to a few hundred thousand. It's been like that since the 60's and it's never changed. Entertainment is what is needed, but it's still a dirty word in folk circles. "Daughters of Albion" was to entertainment what watching paint dry is to rock and roll! |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: hawkerlad Date: 05 Mar 06 - 10:04 AM "Daughters of Albion," must rank as the worst programme supposedly based on folk music ever seen. The producers of this debacle have really earned the name, "perfidious," in connection with Albion. They have stabbed the whole genre in the back. Eliza Carthy is the only one who can come out of this with a modicum of credit - all the rest should go away, and ask themselves if they are willing to sacrifice any last shred of integrity for the chance to appear on TV. Bogus folk! |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: Bagpuss Date: 05 Mar 06 - 10:08 AM I don't think we should blame the performers so much as the person who put the bill together. I don't think they were quite sure what they wanted out of it. Individually I am a fan of quite a few of the performers, but the context was all wrong. I love Kathryn Williams, but she should mainly do her own songs, which is her main strength, and they don't really fit in the folk genre. I know I dont keep her CD in my folk section. And June Tabor, I think you need a whole concert of just her in order to really "get" her. |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: akenaton Date: 05 Mar 06 - 10:46 AM Guest ...Maybe I havn't made myself clear, but I have never been a supporter of the "dirgy pompous stuff", although the old ballads and some of the new songs have their place in folk music. The time when Folk was really popular involved people being exposed to the lighter side and the chorus songs,before moving on to appreciate the old ballads, the anti-war songs and others with "social content". In short people had to slowly grow into the music ...and I know many who have done just that. I am certainly not in faour of "dumbing down" our music to make it popular ,as you seem to be suggesting. We must keep the spirit in the music or we something "hardly worth the singing at all" Ake |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: GUEST,DB Date: 05 Mar 06 - 12:51 PM "The world we live in is a world of celebrity and high profile. The music needs to address this. If you want to watch what's popular watch the talent shows where working class people from Wigan come on and sing in ludicrous American accents for ecstatic audiences. These progs are watched by millions, This is the music of the people today." So, 'Guest' what you're actually saying is "eat shit, 200 million flies can't be wrong"(?) I think I'd rather eat my own leg than subscribe to your pathetic, defeatist philosophy. I want quality in my life not grubby, lowest common denominator populism. There is more to life and art than tawdry, populist rubbish; this is an article of faith with me! What has always attracted me to the old songs is their quality - and a really talented performer, like Eliza Carthy, for example, is able to bring that quality out - if that artist is given a stage to perform on. Anyway, who benefits from low standards in popular culture? |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: GUEST,M.L. Date: 05 Mar 06 - 08:28 PM I see the prat who edits Folk Roots thinks the Whores Of Albion programme was wonderful!! http://froots.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1178 See what the idiot has to say, twice in that Topic, once at the top and even more stupidly about 8th message down the list. What does he know about folk music, we all know he's only interested in African rubbish. How can he be allowed to say things like that and get away with it? I'm really disgusted, he should be kicked out of his job and a real folkie should get it. |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: Dave Hanson Date: 06 Mar 06 - 04:21 AM According to the BBC radio 2 message board, the Folk Roots editor theorised that the Daughters Of Albion was not meant to attract people into folk music but to get folk fans to broaden their horizons, this is Ian Anderson talking about the ' kings new clothes ' again, ie. if we don't like it we are the stupid ones, this was exactly his attitude about so called ' world music, [ which incidently, meant anything except British folk music ] eric |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: GUEST Date: 06 Mar 06 - 04:49 AM Guest DB I agree with you. You've missed my point which was that what you and I consider quality will never be popular with the general public and that it's daft to think it ever will. Ake I agree that we need to bring the lighter side back before the general public. Daughters of Albion was a wake! As to the editor of Folk Roots, he's a failed musician who couldn't survive in the 70's folk world and he's vented his spleen on all those who have been successful performers doing what he couldn't do, particularly the songwriters of that era. |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: John MacKenzie Date: 06 Mar 06 - 05:22 AM The words 'professional musician' spring to mind on this one. We seem to agree that most of the performances were anything but! Giok |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: Essex Girl Date: 06 Mar 06 - 09:00 AM Apart from Norma and Eliza, the programme was lousy. Where wer the excellent singers on the folk scene? The Mudcat chorus could have put on a far better show!!! |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: GUEST Date: 06 Mar 06 - 09:14 AM GUEST said "As to the editor of Folk Roots, he's a failed musician who couldn't survive in the 70's folk world and he's vented his spleen on all those who have been successful performers doing what he couldn't do." I'm not quite sure how you square that with a) He's the one currently praising the concert and the singers and you're all slagging them off, or b) I spent Saturday night happily dancing to the band he still plays in at a really good ceilidh in Bracknell. But don't let facts get in the way of opinions, that wouldn't be the Mudcat way ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: Paco Rabanne Date: 06 Mar 06 - 09:25 AM It was a poor advert for any non-folkies who had maybe tuned in for the first time to see what all the fuss was about. Dull. |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: GUEST,DB Date: 06 Mar 06 - 09:37 AM Dear 'GUEST', I'm glad that you agree with me - I still think you're being defeatist, though. Popular culture doesn't have to be cheap and tawdry. I've been to countries where it's not - Bulgaria, for example. In that country I've walked along a street and heard wonderful music coming from an open doorway - it turned out to be a wedding with a live band. I've also been to restaurants where the radio has been on and playing fine traditional music. Even the music put on for tourists often turns out to be some of the finest that the country has to offer. In Macedonia I've seen little kids sat on a garage roof beating out amazingly complex rhythms on old tin cans. On the streets of Warsaw and ljubljana I've heard excellent street musicians and even traditional singers. On the Athens Metro I once heard a marvellous accordian player (Albanian, I think) accompanied by a small boy playing a tambourine-like drum. In Turkey restaurants in tourist resorts often play western pop music over the sound system. On slack days, when there are not many other customers, I've often asked if they can play me some Turkish music. The restauranteur always seems delighted to oblige, I become a friend for life, and I get to hear some wonderful music. One of my ambitions is to go to one of those open-air operas in Italy - where everyone takes a picnic and bottles of good wine and 'culture' is obviously not a dirty word. Popular culture doesn't have to be crap - other nationalities know this - why don't we? If we want something better we've got to fight for it! |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: GUEST Date: 06 Mar 06 - 10:13 AM Agreed again. Our problem is we follow American Kulture. I too have found more civilisation and art abroad than in this country. Somehow we've always had this anti-intellectual bias in England. It seems to filter down from the top. When will the royals ever produce someone other than cannon fodder for the army or fodder feeders for horses? Go round our great houses and see the absolute paucity of any artistic taste. And even our FRoots mag prefers the music of elsewhere. Depressin' init? |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: GUEST Date: 06 Mar 06 - 02:56 PM The song Marlene Dietrich sang before Liily Marlene was almost unintelligible. I could make out about one in ten words. The whole show was absolutely dull and dreary. Did Liza carthy surround herself with dimwits so she shone that bit brighter? |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: MuddleC Date: 06 Mar 06 - 05:33 PM Well, as an definitive 'Daughters of Albion'last-of-the-series programme, a potential folk fest allbeit with a very small limited number of 'faces', ..I had thought that the good old beeb could have produced something I would be proud to show to non-folkies or even have paid to attend.... but no. If I could liken it to a meal , then it was advertised as an 'a la carte' feast, promising mouth watering tastes but producing a three hour old McDonalds carpet burger with damp lettuce and droopy bread , perhaps some seasame seeds as 'garnish', there wasn't enough tomato ketchup available to make it half palatable.. I'm off for a pizza |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: Dick The Box Date: 07 Mar 06 - 04:10 AM I too watched the aforementioned concert and like most others found it deeply disappointing (but hands up those who were surprised that it was a disappointment - not many I suspect!). I have indulged in folk music both as audience and performer for 30 years now because I find it enjoyable, fun and exciting. OK there is some serious, difficult, sad stuff but mostly it is enjoyable, fun and exciting. Seems to me that there wasn't a lot of joy, fun or excitement in that concert. I also find that I get ****ed off with the need to be continually moving forward and changing things, just for the sake of change (this is true in all walks of life from politics down but that is a whole new rant!). What is so non-pc about experienced artists, with good material & arrangements and a proven track record being showcased. There was an emphasis in the concert on relatively modern material (which was mostly weak and poorly delivered) and even the older material had to be jazzed up with the big band treatment to make it appear new and fresh. I know you can pick holes and say "Ah but this item in the show was...." but generally, as advert for the kind of folk that gives me the tingle factor and makes me come back for more, it was crap. |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 07 Mar 06 - 07:00 AM if you look at my wifes large CD collection, its mostly women singer songwriters of various genres and nationalities.. she particularly enjoys the fashionable contemporary commercial chart stuff that gets promoted in 'Marie Clare' / weekend newspaper magazines,etc; as well as classic folk & country singers from the last 40 odd years.. she's definitely very receptive to new female voices and styles.. but she totaly lost interest in the albion daughters concert and spent most of it obliviously reading a dense historical novel.. ..independent of anything written here or anywhere else.. her opinion of the show was that it was "so dreary" ! i wouldn't argue with her, i thought this production was striving too hard for 'shallow' safe middle brow sophistication & critical appreciation at the cost of any true vibrancy of emotion or genuine stylistic musical progression.. but then again, i'd have preferred any of Pj Harvey's distorted guitar amp driven old touring bands or an abrasive psaltry / hurdy gurdy style early music and electric guitars rock line-up to have provided the backing music than that bunch of insipid soft music college hacks.. |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: GUEST,sil Date: 09 Mar 06 - 11:55 AM There MUST be a copy around here, where I can get my hands on, C'mon, anybody? Don't want it for free. Please, very important... |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: GUEST Date: 20 Apr 06 - 12:47 PM No. John Pandrich. He was an amateur archaeologist in his youth, so his mates called him Johnny Panhandle, which of course became Johnny Handle. Johnny Handle??? Didn't he used to be Ewan MacColl - Oh no - it was John Pandritch - wonder why he changed his name - or is it relevent to anything? |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: GUEST Date: 20 Apr 06 - 02:29 PM Hahha. I too will come out and declare I have concealed a Peter Paul & Mary LP crudely disguised as a Lonnie Donegan. What is all this bashing of the early lot like WH Club and like - they were doing what they had and started a lot of people off on a lifelong journey. I went to a pub in Plymouth in the mid 60's with Cyril Tawney and he never complained about Robin Hall & Jimmy McGregor. You just enjoyed the music - what's new? Gerald in Argyll |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: fat B****rd Date: 05 Apr 08 - 04:16 PM Some adverse comments re the Daughters of Albion here. |
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 folk program From: GUEST Date: 05 Apr 08 - 04:23 PM ????? |
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