BS: Cultural genocide

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 03:44 AM

"Jim, those countries have warm relations with Israel and do not call it a terrorist state or a rogue state or accuse it of war crimes or massacres, as I have shown."
You have a list of the acts carried out by the Israeli regime - respond to them and stop hiding behind your claim of political collusion by self interested Governments.
If they did what is claimed (and as far as I am concerned proven) that they did, they should be tried as war criminals and human rights abusers - instead, they are demanding that the International Criminal Court should be abolished, therefore making it impossible to try any war criminals of any shape or form.
You have the evidence - you have the opinions of those Jews who suffered at the hands of Nazism - instead, you opt for a political system that gave us Tony Blair, George Bush, Margaret Thatcher and Lyndon B Johnson.
You said you hasve nothing more to say, you are proving that to be the case - say something or keep your promise - you have nothing to offer here - you never really have (other than appeasement and denial).
"represents an extreme far left"
So let's get this straight - the Holocaust Survivor signatories are all extreme left-wingers - or are you saying that the letter is a fake?
A bit squalid, even for an extreme right-winger, don't you think?
How about a word from you on the listed crimes Corporal Terrytoon - you are usually not backward in coming forward in defending the indefensible with your 'Cock-o'-the-midden' bullying and blustering.
You have a list of the crimes Israel has long been accused of committing - are you going to respond to them or are you gong to hide behind the silence of States who poured burning petrol on to the heads of Vietnamese peasants for decades and committed the world to decades of war to protect oil supplies?
Let me guess !!!   
A few reminders to not respond to
Jim Carroll
Children
Civilians
refugees
Weapons
More weapons
Still more
Chemicals used on Nomadic peoples
Effects of setlements
Humiliation

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 03:47 AM

Ehmmmm Musktwat I do not believe that the UN had anything whatsoever to do with setting up the EU - All the UN did was to invite the intergovernmental organisation known as the EU to become Permanent Observers at the UN.

Now c'mon give us one member state of the EU who has declared Israel to be a terrorist state, guilty of war crimes - put up or shut up.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 03:49 AM

Are any of you people going to respond to the fact that, if Israel gets its way the world will be left without an international court to try war criminals?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 05:24 AM

Jim,
political collusion by self interested Governments.

So you are now claiming that all our liberal democracies are part of a global conspiracy to conceal Israel's "crimes."

Would that be a Jewish conspiracy Jim?
Otherwise why would they.
Israel has no oil or strategic resources, and fewer people than London so not a great market.

No.
The reason they are silent about those "crimes" is because there are none.
Just propaganda from antisemites and other enemies of Israel.
You people believe it all, but informed governments and sensible people do not.

Musket, all those anti Israel resolutions are from HRC, not SC or GA.
Decent governments do not vote for them.
They do not hold Israel to be guilty of all that shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 05:48 AM

Musket,
I notice Obama has made a clear message with the latest Israeli Americans status.

This from Time Mag. just 3 weeks ago,

"President Obama sought to reassure American Jews that he fully supports the state of Israel "

"The statements follow a wide-ranging interview published by The Atlantic on Thursday, in which President Obama stressed his love for the Jewish state of Israel,"

""I want Israel, in the same way that I want the United States, to embody the Judeo-Christian and, ultimately then, what I believe are human or universal values that have led to progress over a millennium," he told Goldberg."
http://time.com/3894355/barack-obama-adas-israel-synagogue/

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 06:20 AM

"So you are now claiming that all our liberal democracies are part of a global conspiracy to conceal Israel's "crimes.""
No I am not - Israel's crimes are unconsealable as they are carried out in public.
Most "decent" nations have condemned the crimes as they happen (yu have had a list which you ignore) - some have even voted on them in the United Nations, but those votes have been quashed by the U.N, veto.
"is because there are none."
Now there's your "Global conspiracy"
Where have all those you have been given (09 Jun 15 - 03:44 AM)and the thousands more reported on in the world press come from - all an International plot?
Are you insane?
Nice to see that you have joined the Antisemites in ascribing Israel's war crimes to The Jews
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 06:41 AM

"... a political system that gave us Tony Blair, George Bush, Margaret Thatcher and Lyndon B Johnson", fulminates the ever-egregious J Carroll, as if it were somehow self-evident that, because they happened to approve policies not to his oh-so-fastidious personal liking, they were beyond some sort of pale; rather than having, every single one of them, gained office in democratic elections carried out without corruption, fear or favour, in free states where one-citizen-one-vote is the undisputed norm.

All these know-it-alls who proclaim themselves democrats but loathe the inevitable results of democratic elections which fly in the face of their cherished but misguided leftie shibboleths --

ARNTCHA SICK OF THEM!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 07:16 AM

Yes yes yes very sick of them indeed !

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 07:47 AM

Having been elected, gives them no credence as far as honest or morality is concerned - especially als all of them have studiously ignored the views of those who elected them.
Are you really aligning yourself with those who describe you as being part of an Antisemitic plot (I believe you claim to be a critic of Israel, though sometimes it's hard to tell)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 08:24 AM

Jim, you have acknowledged that all those countries are "silent" on Israel's supposed crimes.

That is all I am claiming.
I also say that they are silent about the crimes because they do not believe in them.
Why else?

You people believe all the propaganda pumped out by Israel's enemies, but informed governments do not.
Nor do I.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 08:45 AM

"That is all I am claiming."
No it isn't Keith
You claim because they are silent they don't exist - stop changing your argument
You also claim nobody has criticised the crimes
Ift they don't believe them why have theey specifically criticised them
Mad as a ****** hatter
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 09:06 AM

You claim because they are silent they don't exist - stop changing your argument

I do think that is the reason all those governments are silent on the supposed crimes.
I have just said that!
What is your explanation for the silence?

You also claim nobody has criticised the crimes
Ift they don't believe them why have theey specifically criticised them

They have not.
I have shown that for each of the countries.
Can you show where such a government accuses Israel of war crimes or massacres or of being a terrorist state?

If not, I think we are done

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 09:23 AM

He has an opinion that dIffers from yours.... that does not make them[sic] delusional.

Absolutely right, HiLo . The fact that his "opinion" is complete horseshit is what makes him delusional.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 09:40 AM

So why is his opinion horseshit and your not ?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 09:54 AM

They're called "facts", HiLo.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 09:56 AM

You never present facts greg. You rarely say anything constructive. So what facts are you referring to ? I am confused.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 10:01 AM

"What is your explanation for the silence?"
You've had it a dozen times - the samer reason Cameron attended a funeral while tjhe regime whose head he was "paying respect to" were handing out 1,000 lashes to an outspoken journalist - political expediency, national self-interest.... any one of a dozen reasons
I know it's not in your nature to read what you have been given, but you have access to an excellent article on why America supports Israel - read it.
You have been examples of acts of terror, mass murder.... etc, by the Israeli regime - waht are they, lies, not crimes against humanity... what?
You have described attacks on Israel as "Antisemitic" - does that include the comments of the Holocaust survivors?
You have no case, no never have had one and nor shall you.
Acts of terror make for a terrorist state, no matter who is silent abut them
It's just outside the scope of my lifetime that the British Govenment were silent about what was happening in Nazi Germany - remember the "Peace in our time" piece of paper?
Does that man what was happening n Germany wasn't happening?
Don't be stupid
You are hiding behind politicians in the way Brucie and his ilk are hiding behind the Jewish people
How do you square your inhuman behaviour with your Christianity?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 10:23 AM

You have described attacks on Israel as "Antisemitic"

No I have not, but there is antisemitism in the world and especially in the Middle East. Much anti-Israel propaganda originates there.
You don't have to believe it all without question Jim!

Those decent countries may be critical of actual, real issues like the settlements, but they have nothing to say about war crimes and massacres, and they treat Israel as another liberal democracy which it is, and not a terrorist or rogue state.

Cameron attended a funeral while tjhe regime whose head he was "paying respect to" were handing out 1,000 lashes to an outspoken journalist - political expediency, national self-interest....

Heads of state attend each others funerals.
That is the custom, and Saudi is rich in oil.

There is no self interest in keeping silent about Israeli crimes if there really were any.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 10:49 AM

"No I have not"
"The reason they are silent about those "crimes" is because there are none.
Just propaganda from antisemites and other enemies of Israel."
Yes you have - don't you even bother reading what you write yourself?
You have been asked two direct questions - "what are they, lies, not crimes against humanity... what?"
"You have described attacks on Israel as "Antisemitic" - does that include the comments of the Holocaust survivors?"
You have answered neither of them, which is answer enough for me
Thanks for the opportunity of letting me help you display your dishonesty and inhumanity yet again
You have nce again shown yourself for what you really are - al helps for future reference.
Keep on appeasing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 10:50 AM

Disgusting: when called out on the fact that UNRWA teachers who have explicitly made antisemitic statements and denied the Holocaust. In response, the UNRWA Chief refused to commit to teaching Palestinians about antisemitism.

YouTube

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 12:35 PM

"You have described attacks on Israel as "Antisemitic"

Again, no I have not.
Some certainly are, but by no means all.

Liberal, democratic governments do not accuse Israel of massacres or war crimes, and never describe it as a terrorist or rogue state.

Do you deny that?
If so provide evidence of them doing it
That is my case.

I also claim that the reason they do not say it is because they know it is false.
Just propaganda.

Unless you can produce something, we are done here Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 01:02 PM

"Disgusting: when called out on the fact that UNRWA teachers who have explicitly made antisemitic statement"
No they did have not - they referred to the "Judifcation of Jerusalem" - which is exactly what the Israeli regime is doing - driving out all Arabs from the territory (their rightful home) and replacing them with Jewish settlers .
This is being carried out in the name of the Jewish people and is being condemned by many Jews - 'Jews for Justice' 'Rabbis for Peace have both condemned the expansionism being carried out by the Israelis
Many Jews have described what is happening in Jerusalem and elsewhere as 'Apartheid'
Accusations of 'Antisemitism' are now the knee-jerk recations to any criticism of Israel - you are living proof of that in describing an Israeli paper as such
Over 350 Holocaust survivors have condemned Israeli expansionism - THE DRIVING OUT OF NON-JEWS TO MAKE ROOM FOR JEWISH SETTLERS
The same accusations have been made in the United Nations.
Jews for Justice
A Zionist Jew for Justice
"The US government tries to negotiate a peace agreement while favoring one side. Israel establishes more 'facts on the ground.' It is up to all of us to work for real peace with justice, not piece talks with settlements."
Jewish Voice for Peace
Now piss off with your squalid Antisemitic accusations of Antisemitism - you insult the Jewish people with your behaviour.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 01:02 PM

What is Terribulus going on about? UN setting up EU?

Weird bugger.

Keith meanwhile conveniently finds an old story about Obama when I mentioned where the U.S. Courts have sided with him in refusing to recognise Israel as the birthplace of US citizens born in Jerusalem.

A small point but according to eminent, alive, consensus attracting commentators, a huge political message to The Israeli government. Obviously, in the words of Keith, they all agree with me. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 01:23 PM

"Again, no I have not."
Yes you have and you've just been given it - one more time -
"The reason they are silent about those "crimes" is because there are none.
Just propaganda from antisemites and other enemies of Israel."
You are insane, aren't you? - get help
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 02:13 PM

Jim,
"Just propaganda from antisemites and other enemies of Israel."

You see?
I have never claimed that all the attacks are from anti-semites, but some are.
Deny that?

Musket,
Keith meanwhile conveniently finds an old story about Obama

Not old.
Only about 3 weeks old.
How old was your story Musket?

Here is mine again,
http://time.com/3894355/barack-obama-adas-israel-synagogue/

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 02:32 PM

Musket's story was the overthrow today of the law allowing people born in Jerusalem to put Israel on their passport as birthplace.

That law has never been enforced for the thirteen years since it was passed, and Bush objected to it too.

Not a dramatic shift in the president's policy then.

This from Time Mag. just 3 weeks ago,

"President Obama sought to reassure American Jews that he fully supports the state of Israel "

"The statements follow a wide-ranging interview published by The Atlantic on Thursday, in which President Obama stressed his love for the Jewish state of Israel,"

""I want Israel, in the same way that I want the United States, to embody the Judeo-Christian and, ultimately then, what I believe are human or universal values that have led to progress over a millennium," he told Goldberg."

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 03:04 PM

You included Antisemites - stop being dishonest
Have you no self respect?
Now - a response to all those links if you don't mind. instead of pretanding you haven't been given them
All the 'decent countries' you have named have attacked Israel's murderous and expansionist behaviour including Obama
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 03:08 PM

You never present facts greg.

No need to on this thread, HiLo - Jim, Dave, Derrick et. al. are doing just fine without my help.

NEVER present facts? - untrue.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 03:51 PM

""I want Israel, in the same way that I want the United States, to embody the Judeo-Christian and, ultimately then, what I believe are human or universal values that have led to progress over a millennium," he told Goldberg."

You see, Keith, this is just an aspirational statement. He wants it. He hasn't got it. You appear to imply that it's already been achieved. It hasn't, and Barack Obama knows it hasn't. He has done a little distancing from Israel's recent depradations, but he knows he can't go too far. There are powerful and dark forces in America, the land of the free, sharpening their teeth behind his back. Come along, dear Guest, and give us all a laugh by telling us that the US pro-Israel lobby are just a bunch of fluffy bunnies.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 04:30 PM

DeprEdations. I only half-corrected an incorrect autocorrect that had "helpfully" given me "degradations". Oh what fun I have.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 05:24 AM

All the 'decent countries' you have named have attacked Israel's murderous and expansionist behaviour including Obama

If you mean the settlements, yes they have been criticised.
If Obama or any liberal democratic government has attacked Israel for "massacres" or "war crimes" then give a link and a quote.

I gave links and quotes to show that they do not.
Want to see them again?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 05:40 AM

The point is, Keith, not whether other countries with vested interests have ever criticised the massacres or war crimes but whether the massacres or war crimes happened. That's what you need to confront. You could start with the refugee camp massacres in 1982. Try to stop for a minute relying on what other people have or haven't said, which is all about them and nothing else, confront the evidence for yourself in an honest way and stop letting Obama, etc., who always have to watch their backs, run your brain for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 05:59 AM

The point is, Keith, not whether other countries with vested interests have ever criticised the massacres or war crimes but whether the massacres or war crimes happened.

Exactly.
If they had happened, no vested interest would stop Canada and similar free and liberal countries attacking them for it.
I regard the absence of any such condemnations from decent governments as the strongest evidence that they did not.

re Sabra and Shatilla now over thirty years ago.
There were a number of events in those camps that could be construed as a massacre.
None was committed by Israelis and one was stopped by them.

There are Palestinian refugees being killed and allowed to die in their camps in Syria right now as I type.
The numbers involved utterly dwarf any loss of life in the Lebanese camps all those decades ago.
Where is the outrage?
Why do you only wave shrouds when you think you can frame Israel?

We all know each others views on this.
Why start it again?

Does any liberal democratic government accuse Israel of any massacre or war crime?
No.
That is because informed governments do not swallow without question all the propaganda and lies from Israel's enemies and anti-semitic groups in the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 06:07 AM

Guardian 9 weeks ago,

For more than 50 years, Yarmouk refugee camp was used as a showpiece of Syrian support for the Palestinian cause.

"Now, after three years of war and siege, jihadists of the Islamic State (Isis) stalk its ruins, the regime bombs the buildings that still stand and the few remaining residents must choose between abject misery if they stay and likely death if they flee."

"The Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) has maintained a low profile throughout the siege, which has repeatedly been described by the UN Relief and Works Agency (UNWRA) as an atrocity. Throughout the past two years, the UN body has only been able to secure piecemeal access to starving residents, some of whom have died from hunger and thirst.

"The violence that began in Yarmouk on 9 April is not just continuing, it has intensified," said UNRWA spokesman Chris Gunness. "Yarmouk is at the lower reaches of hell. It must not be allowed to descend further.""

"A Palestinian academic from Yarmouk who visited the camp late last year said the PLO's overtures to the regime are part of an internal competition between Fatah, which dominates the PLO, and Hamas, which fell out with Assad after it declared its support for the original uprising.

"All of the Palestinian organisations have been unable to rescue the Palestinians," he said. "We need salvation. We are in the 21st century and Palestinians are dying of hunger."

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 06:31 AM

"I regard the absence of any such condemnations from decent governments as the strongest evidence that they did not."
Wonder if you think that the fact that a blogger has just been sentenced to 1,000 lashes and ten years in a Saudia Arabian jail has elicited no protest from "decent countries" means that has it's all been invented - don't wonder really
The only evidence that you have offered in defence of Isreali atrocities is that "decent Governments' have not condemned it EVEN THOUGH THEY ALL HAVE how long are you going to keep up this nonsense?
Until the 7th Cavalry in th form of a bunch of "real historians" and "experts" come to your rescue, no doubt - not going to happen
You have had the example of Israeli atrocities and war crimes and you refuse even to comment on them, let alone deny they happened or justify them - they won't go away either.
"Sabra and Shatilla now over thirty years ago."
There is no moratorium on mass murder - the Isrealis were kidnapping and trying war criminals 60 years after the event, and they were right to do so.
Israel has never been tried for its part in the massacre -the American veto made sure of that.
Regarding yours and others use of 'Antisemitism as a defence for Israel atrocities (you have used it before by the way - on one of the threads on which you were defending the Sabra Shatila massacre, you asked whether I was attacking Israel because I dislikes Jews - maybe the moratorium has run out on that one)
People like yourself, wo use such a defence are implicating every single Jew on Earth in mass murder, war crimes, usurpation of land, use of chemical weapons.... and all the other crimes committed by Israel in the ame of the Jewish people
Antisemitism is the oldest form of hatred - it has been part of life for many, many centuries.
My family fought Antisemitism on the British Streets in the 1930s, some of them were punished by the state with fines and imprisonment for having done so.
Antisemitism is now on the rise again, and it is little wonder; to implicating Jews in Israeli war crimes by claiming that to criticise Israel is to be anti-Jewish is to paint a target on every Jew on the planet
Tese are not "Jewish" crimes, they are crimes of the Israeli regime.
Are you going to tell us that the several dozen or so examples of Israeli atrocities are fakes, or whether you believe they are justifed.
Come on, don't be shy, then you can com out from hiding behind non-existent "decent countries
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 06:35 AM

I for one do not deny that the other side have committed atrocities or been involved in vile activities. But you are using that like a bludgeon to deflect from the war crimes and other atrocities that the state of Israel has also been involved in. Your attitude is that we don't have to talk about Israel's misdeeds because you can demonstrate others' misdeeds. That is the tactic of the schoolyard, Keith, and it's doesn't work with grownups. As for the refugee camp massacres, which I note you are trying to minimise, Israeli forces did not do the killing but they prevented people from leaving the camp and illuminated the area in order to facilitate the slaughter by their close allies. Ariel Sharon was later forced to resign, having been found to be personally responsible for failing to prevent the massacre. "None was committed by Israelis" doesn't cut it in the light of those facts, does it, Keith? You may resort to a technical factoid but the context tells a different story, Keith, one that you'd prefer to shut your eyes and ears to.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 06:37 AM

Absurd conflict of singulars and plurals there, perpetrated by me there. :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 06:40 AM

"Does any liberal democratic government accuse Israel of any massacre or war crime"
Nobody nation has ever disputed Israel's part in the Sabra Shatila massacre
When an independent enquiry found Israel guilty both in fact and by implication in the massacre, no "decet country" ever raised its voice against such an 'unjust' accusation - (except America - hardly "decent")
By your twisted logic, they all would have been up in arms.
Most Governments and every single human rights organisation condemned and is still condemning the massacres that took place last year
To pretend they aren't is a blatent lie.
You have been given the proof of those massacres and the protests from all the Govenments who protests - to continue to make these claims is simply to lie in the face of proven evidence - which is what you appear to be reduced to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 06:54 AM

I have no axe to grind in this argument. Maybe that is bad of me and I should but I cannot summon the enthusiasm. I would however like to point out the fallacy of lack of evidence being proof of something.

I have said it before, on other topics, but it is worth repeating in these circumstances. To quote from the article. "It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false (or vice versa). This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there is insufficient investigation and therefore insufficient information to prove the proposition satisfactorily to be either true or false." I shall not bring it up again on this thread unless asked to repeat or explain it.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 07:19 AM

Come on then Jim tell us all about the so-called "Jenin" Massacre - the event that never happened - as it turned out.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 08:00 AM

Jim, The Saudi's use of flogging is a despicable internal policy.
It is not a war crime or a massacre.
Such things are always condemned by all decent governments when they happen, and obviously are not condemned when they don't.

Steve,
Ariel Sharon was later forced to resign, having been found to be personally responsible for failing to prevent the massacre.

By the Israelis.
Yes.

Israeli forces did not do the killing but they prevented people from leaving the camp and illuminated the area in order to facilitate the slaughter by their close allies.

No.
They were unaware of the massacre (of Arabs by Arabs) at that time.

Jim,
Nobody nation has ever disputed Israel's part in the Sabra Shatila massacre

Of course it has been disputed Jim!

When an independent enquiry found Israel guilty both in fact and by implication in the massacre,

Do you mean the UN enquiry that found Israe "indirectly responsible" because they were the authority at the time of it.
Israel accepts that.

Most Governments ......
Quote me any decent government accusing Israel of any massacre or war crime.
That is the issue between us.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 08:02 AM

"Come on then Jim tell us all about the so-called "Jenin" Massacre - the event that never happened - as it turned out."
There was mass slaughter of civilians at Jenin - the numbers were exaggerated (as all sides incvariably do in wartime), but that in no way altered the fact that a large number of civilians were killed.
The Americans managed to save it from technically being called a 'massacre' - semantics - and nothing to do with the actual and deliberate massacres of the elderly, men women and children non-combatants by the Israeli army using sophisticated and, in some cases, illegal weapons.
Even after the Gaza massacres last year (which were little more than revenge killings to avenge the murder of the Israeli students), squalids like you and Keith, tried to justify them with semantics by claiming that some of the children slaughtered weren't technically children - how squalid can you get?
Now - are you going to respond to this with anuything other than bullying bluster, or will you do your old usual and do another runner
I await with bated breasts - so to speak!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 08:10 AM

but that in no way altered the fact that a large number of civilians were killed.

Not true.
Everyone was accounted for.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 08:12 AM

Even after the Gaza massacres

The only "massacres" that ever occurred in Gaza were perpetrated by Hamas. Why do you try to slander Israel with such lies? Is it because it is a Jewish state?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 08:13 AM

NY Times.

The United Nations issued a cautious report today dismissing as unsubstantiated Palestinian claims that 500 people were killed when Israeli forces invaded a refugee camp in the West Bank city of Jenin in April.

Stepping gingerly into a battle waged almost as fiercely in public relations as it was on the ground, the United Nations criticized both sides for putting Palestinian civilians at risk.

It suggested the Palestinian Authority was "inducing turmoil, chaos, and instability," and it criticized the Israeli Army for inflicting "severe hardships" on Palestinian civilians through the use of curfews and other measures.

The United Nations study supported previously published accounts that said 52 Palestinians were killed in the Jenin refugee camp, along with 23 Israeli soldiers. In one of the study's equivocal judgments, it reported that "up to half" of the Palestinian dead "may have been civilians."

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 08:14 AM

which were little more than revenge killings to avenge the murder of the Israeli students

More lies.

Hamas attacked Israel. Why did it do that?

You really are a Jew hater aren't you.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,R Sole
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 08:17 AM

Two wrongs seem to include a right. If you are on the right.

I think Keith A of Hertford and Teribus should move to The USA and host a current affairs show on Fox. Their lack of grasp and understanding is breathtaking enough, but to parade it as a virtue?

I realise both contributors have dismissed me as this "Musket" character, but that seems to be the very least of their wrongful assertions. Cutting and pasting opinions found in tabloid newspapers is irrefutable fact apparently. I begin to see how tabloid media is surviving in this raw information rich world. If it fits with your agenda, it must be true. How awful.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 08:23 AM

I regard the absence of any such condemnations from decent governments as the strongest evidence that they did not.


Styill haven't looked up the Ignornce Fallacy, have you, Keith?

HINT:"The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 08:25 AM

Their lack of grasp and understanding is breathtaking enough,

R Sole, the object of debate is to expose the lack of grasp and understanding in others, not to just claim it.

Why don't you, R Sole?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 08:30 AM

Greg dear, I tried to explain it to you before.
That fallacy does not apply here.

If Israel had really committed war crimes or massacres, all decent governments WOULD condemn them for it.

The absence of any such condemnation IS proof that those governments do not recognise any war crimes or massacres.