Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall

Subject: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 08:22 PM

In this recent thread thread.cfm?threadid=99955&messages=18#1998603 a Mudcatter mentioned how he {she?} had introduced the concept of folk songs to a group of Girl Guides and Brownies by asking them to sing the next line that comes after "Wallflowers, wallflowers growing up so high". I'm paraphrasing, but I got the sense that the poster was saying that the group realized that they knew a folk song since they knew that particular Wallflower song.

That comment got my attention since I'm sure that would not have been the response I would have gotten from children who participated in the after-school & the summer groups that I faciliated from
1997-2006. I don't think that any of those children would have known that Wallflower song.

I'm curious about how familiar the Wallflower song is among different populatrions in different nations over different periods of time. For instance, is it more familiar to people of certain ages in the UK than in the USA or Canada or Australia etc?

Btw, this song is listed here in the Digitrad as "Water Water Wallflower 2" {Which leads me to ask where's examle #1?}.

Also, I'm wondering if folks here know the children's rhyme "Brick Wall Waterfall". I'm curious if this rhyme -at least in part-comes from the Wallflower song.

"Brick Wall Waterfall" became widely known due to its being a part of a 2003 American movie "Dickie Roberts, Former Child Star".
See http://imdb.com/title/tt0325258/quotes "Memorable quotes for
Dickie Roberts: Former Child Star (2003)"

I've posted 28 {and counting} different versions of "Brickwall Waterfall" on this page of my website http://www.cocojams.com/taunting_rhymes.htm . Btw, some of these examples come from children who have mentioned that they live in the UK.

I'll start this thread off by posting examples of this song and this rhyme.

Please join in!

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 08:27 PM

I found an example of "Water Water Wallflower" in an old book of African American play songs. I posted it in the Mudcat thread "Children's Street Songs" in response to this query thread.cfm?threadid=4300#1372419

Here's that example and my comments:

Subject: RE: Children's Street Songs
From: Azizi - PM
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 06:35 PM

...

In "Play Songs of The Deep South" Altona Trent Johns, 1944
tthere's a version called "Water-Flower" The first verse is completely different:

1st verse: Water-flower, water-flower
          growing up so tall
          All the young ladies must surely, surely die
          All except 'Lindy Watkins,
          She is everywhere=
          The white folks say, the white folks say,
          Turn your back and tell your beau's name.

end of quote--
But the second verse of that song has the verse you quoted:

2nd verse Doctor, doctor, can you tell
          What will make poor 'Lindy well?
          She is sick and 'bout to die
          That will make poor Johnnie cry.

end of quote

As you can see that's the same as yours except for the change in names. Now if your name is Ronnie and your sister's name is Nancy that would account for the name changes...

"Water-Flower" has a different ending than the one you gave:

3rd verse Marry marry, marry quick!
          'Lindy, you are just love sick!

4th verse Johnnie is a ver' nice man,
          Comes to the door with hat in hand,
          Pulls off his gloves and shows his rings,
          "Morrow is the wedding-day.
---
"Water-flower" is described as a pantomine ring {cicle} game with one girl in the middle; a boy is said to act out the role of the doctor {This was before Women's Lib} and the doctor selects the boy whose name 'Lindy had mentioned to come into the center of the ring and act out the role of "Johnnie"..."

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 08:35 PM

Here's some examples of "Brickwall Waterfall" rhymes that have been sent to my website:

Brick wall Waterfall {Example #1}
Brick wall waterfall boy/girl you think you no it all you dont i do so shh whith that Additude Your Mama your daddy your balled headed granny she 99 she thinks shes fine she going out whith frankinstine shes hip shes fat she needs a tic-tac not a tic not a tac but the hole six pack im sorry to be mean but she needs some listrine not a sip not a swallow but the hole bottle
-Timothy, 2/2/2006; www.cocojams.com

**
A-B-C Hit It! {and/or Brickwall Waterfall} {Example #6}
"it's called A-B-C Hit It! {and/ or Brickwall Waterfall}. It goes:
A-B-C Hit It! That's the way Uh-Uhh I like it Uh-Uhh.
That's the way Uh-Uhh I like it Uh-Uhh. Brickwall Waterfall
Girl you think you know it all. You don't. I do. So Poof with the Attitude. Peace Punch Captain Crunch. I got something you can't touch.
Bang Bang Cho Cho Train. Wind me up I'll do my thing.
Yummy Yummy 7Up Mess with me I'll beat you up. Wait, Come back.
I think you need a Tic Tac. Not 1 Not 2 But the whole six-pack. I'm not trying to be mean but you need some Listerine. Not a sip not a swallow. But the whole dang bottle.

{PS. To the owner of this website usually the Brickwall rhymes are games you play with your hands. Thanks!!!}"
-lauren; S.A T.X ro ; 5/7/2006; www.cocojams.

**

Brick Wall Water Fall {Example #8}
brick wall water fall girl u think u know it all u dont i do so poof with your attitude poof poof.. elbow elbow wrist wrist u can kiss this (point at butt) elbow elbow wrist wrist u can lick this (point at u-know wat) elbow elbow wrist wrist u mess with me u mess with me elbow elbow wrist wrist shut up girl u just got dissed.
-Esoterica; 6/1/2006 ; www.cocojams.com

**

Captain Crunch Waterfall {Brick Wall Waterfall, Version #19}
Here is one called Captain Crunch Waterfall. Captaincrunch waterfall you teams think you got it all but you don't{team name} Oak Glen Bears do so {then stomp on the bleachers}BOOOM with your attitude{now clap your hands once really loud} BOOOM T-O-U-C-H-D-O-W-N!!!!!!!!!!!!
-Madi ; 11/28/2006 ; www.cocojams.com

**

Brick Wall Water Fall {Version #28}
Brickwall Waterfall (name) thinks shes got it all and she don't, I do. So backup with that attitude. Peace Punch Captian Crunch I got something you can't touch. Rieces Peices 7Up you mess with me I'll mess you up. Bang Bang Choo Choo train come on over I'll do my thang I know Karate I know Kung-fu mess with me I'll mess with you. Be gone, your breath is too strong, wait come back, I think you need a tic tac. Not one not two but the whole dang pack. Not a tic not a tac but the whole dang pack!!
-Cheerleading Babe; 3/11/2007; www.cocojams.com

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 08:51 PM

Fwiw, let me mention that almost always post the rhyme examples that I get without making any corrections to typos.

I've been interested to notice that almost all the examples that I receive are written in the essay format that you see in the examples provided above.

This run on essay format seems to be the norm among children/youth who post rhymes or other messages on the Internet. In addition to the essay format note the run on sentences, and the fact that the posters aren't that concerned about punctuation or capitalization- not to mention typos-which I know something about ;O)

I believe that this format is preferred to the poetry format because that is takes tooo long to write and imo, speed is very important when writing on the Internet {for younger folks perhaps more than for us oldsters}.

**

Also, notice that there are some standard lines in the examples of "Brickwall Waterfall" that I shared in the previous post.

Some of these floating lines are:

"Peace Punch Captain Crunch/I got something you can't touch.

"Reeses Pieces 7Up/ you mess with me I'll mess you up".

"Bang Bang Choo Choo train/mess with me I'll do my thang"

"Be gone, your breath is too strong/wait come back, I think you need a tic tac/Not one not two but the whole dang pack!

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Bee
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 09:39 PM

Azizi, I don't recognise the original 'Wallflower' song at all. I'm in Nova Scotia. From 1972 to 2005 (with several year or two long breaks) I worked with children 3 to 12. I have heard versions of #8 and #28 from kids in the '90s, but without any 'brickwall, waterfall' lines. Sorry I can't remember verbatim.

This: "Doctor, doctor, can you tell
          What will make poor 'Lindy well?
          She is sick and 'bout to die
          That will make poor Johnnie cry."

slightly reminiscent of a skipping song, circa 1970, (sung by 9 and 10 year olds, last line indicates start of fast count skipping):

Cinderella
Dressed in yella
Went upstairs to kiss a fella
Kissed a snake
By mistake
Guess how many doctors it takes

There was another verse involving numbering babies, which I can't remember.

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Flash Company
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 12:47 PM

Wallflower, wallflower growing up so high,
You are my darling who'll never never die,
Except for Alice Whalley, and she's the only one,
I 'For shame', you 'For shame'
Turn your face to the wall again.

Mid Cheshire version, around since the 19th century, the words above as my mother sang it at school in the 1920's. The words 'For shame' were accompanied by a gesture with both hands, palm outwards as though rejecting someone or something.
The Clancy Brothers in their Carnegie Hall set of kids songs used:-
Wallflowers, wallflowers growing up so high,
I've had the measles I'll never never die,
Call at Tommy Makem's house, he has no relations,
He will tick and tack and turn his back and kiss the congregation.


Brian Q

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 10:20 PM

Thanks, Bee and Flash Company for sharing those examples.

Flash Company, what does 'tick and tack' in that last line mean?

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 10:37 PM

Note the similarities between the phrase "tick and tack" as found in that version of the Wallflower rhyme that Flash Company posted and this brand name for a mouth freshner that shows up in a number of "Brick Wall Water Fall" rhymes:

"Wait, Come back.
I think you need a Tic Tac.
Not 1 Not 2 But the whole six-pack"

-snip-

Is this just a coincidence?

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 10:12 AM

Here's some other versions of Brickwall Waterfall:

Brick Wall Water Fall {Version #20}
Brick wall water fall boy you think you got it all you dont I do sochange that atitude you moma yodady yo bald headed granny shes99 she thinks shes fine she going out with frankenstine wait come back you need a tic tac not a tic not a tack but the whole dang pack sorry to be mean but you need some listerine not a sip not a gargle but the whole dang bottle sorry to be lat but you need some colgate not the cole not the gate but the whole dang slate
-TRevon ; 11/29/2006 www.cocojams.com

**

Brick Wall Water Fall {Version #14}
I'm 20, I used to babysit a girl who always said (forgive me I can't remember quite all of it):
Brick wall, waterfall girl you think you know it all, you don't, I do, so BOOM witcha additude. Peace punch cap'n crunch all you wanna do is munch, funky chicken in your lunch, Marsha from the Brady Bunch. Bubble gum in your hair peanut butter everywhere.... there's more I just can't remember the rest...
-Cynthia {Mid MO}; 9/26/2006 www.cocojams.com

-snip-

See for more information about "Marsha from the Brady Bunch":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Brady_Bunch_Kids


Here's one excerpt from that page-"The Brady Bunch is an American television situation comedy, based around a large blended family. The show originally aired from 1969 to 1974 on the ABC network, and was subsequently syndicated across the world".

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 06:48 PM

Here's two versions of Brickwall Waterfall from

http://blog.oftheoctopuses.com/000518.php

1, 2, 3,
HIT IT!
that's the way
uh huh uh huh
i like it
uh huh uh huh
that's the way
uh huh uh huh
i like it
uh huh uh huh
peace. punch
captain crunch.
brick wall. waterfall.
girl you think you know it all?
you don't! i do!
so poof with the attitude.
loser loser with a twist
elbow elbow wrist wrist.
wipe a tear. blow a kiss.
kiss this.
hunnie u aint got none of this.
-posted by k.c. at June 20, 2006

**

the version that i know is a little longer:

loser loser double loser
as if whatever
get the picture break a wall
waterfall
girl/boy you think you got it all?
you don't, i do
so boom with that attitude
peace punch
captain cruch
i got something you can't touch
bing bang choo choo train let me see you do you thing
i can't, why not?
because i can't, why not?
because my back is aching my shoes are too tight
and my hips are shaking from the left to the right
the left to the right
loser loser with a twist
elbow elbow wrist wrist
wipe a tear blow a kiss
kiss this
honey, you ain't got none of this
-posted by yooimhere at June 24, 2006

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 06:53 PM

Here's another version of the Wallflower song with play instructions from this website:

http://ecs.lewisham.gov.uk/youthspace/ca/Rosieskip/playtime_games.htm


WALLFLOWERS

(at least five players)

Wallflowers,wallflowers, growing up so high,

We're pretty mermaids and we shall not die.

Except for Katie*, she's the only one.

Turn her around, turn her around,

So she cannot face the sun

-snip-

One person is the caller. All join hands in a circle and dance around singing rhyme. * The caller chooses someone at this point and he or she has to face outwards. Repeat until all the players are facing outwards.

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 07:23 PM

Readers of this thread who are interested in children's games-with or without game songs-might be interested in this website:
Village Games of Yesteryear.Part Two. http://www.harryburn.co.uk/index.php?page=Village%20Games%20Part%20Two mentions that song.

That web page presents information about the following children's recreational activities:

STATUES

JACK-SHINE-A-MAGGY

LEAP FROG

HOT RICE

DIABLO

FRENCH KNITTING

CATAPULTS

BOGIES

KAZOOS

FLICKER BOOKS

STAMPS

**

That web page also provides information about children playing on the farm, playing winter games, playing indoor games, and playing dancing games. In the dancing games section, that webpage provides words to and play directions for

RING-A-RING OF ROSES

JOLLY MILLER

LUBIN LOO 'Hokey Cokey'

LONDON BRIDGE IS FALLING DOWN

THE FARMERS IN HIS DEN

NUTS IN MAY

THE MULBERRY BUSH

That web page ends with this comment "These are just a few of the games the big girls taught us. they had learnt them at school. Other games including:- Bobby Bingo - The Big Ship Sails Through The Alley O - We'll Push the Business on - Wallflowers, Wallflowers, Growing up so High - The Grand Old Duke of York. The mischievous boys had their own games".

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 07:56 PM

Off-topic..

The "Nuts In May" song that's posted on the Village Games of Yesteryear.Part Two website reminds me of the Gullah
children's song "Johnny Cuckoo". Here's links to posts about the Johnny Cuckoo song that I shared in the Mudcat thread "Songs that help buld self-esteem"
thread.cfm?threadid=77474#1381552

And here's the words to "Nuts In May" from that Village Games website:

NUTS IN MAY
Players were arranged in two rows. One row advanced and retreated singing the first verse. The other players replied with the second verse, advancing and retreating likewise and so on alternately. At the end of the fifth verse, the plays named in the song stepped out and taking each others hands endeavoured to pull the other over a line on the ground. The loser joined the winner's row and the game began again.


1. Here we come gathering Nuts in May. Nuts in May. Nuts in May. Here we come gathering Nuts in May on a cold and frosty morning.

2. Who will you have to gather in May. Nuts in May. Who will you have to gather in May. On a cold and frosty morning?

3. We'll gather Mary for Nuts in May. Nuts in May. Nuts in May We'll gather Mary for Nuts in May on a cold and frosty morning.

4. Who will you send to take her away. Take her away. Take her away. Who will you send to take her away on a cold and frosty morning?

5. We're sending Billy to take her away, Take her away. Take her away. We're sending Billy to take her away. On a cold and frosty morning.

**

There seems little doubt that "Johnny Cuckoo" is an adaptation of "Nuts in May" {and/or the English folk song "Three Dukes A'Riding"} and not the other way around.

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 09:43 PM

Mo the Caller posted an example of the Wallflower song in this Mudcat thread whose theme was the origins of children's rhymes and songs: thread.cfm?threadid=92115 Subject: RE: 2026 Mudcat origins question

I'm going to take the liberty of re-posting the entire comment in this thread:

"Subject: RE: 2026 Mudcat origins question
From: Mo the caller - PM
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 01:49 PM

Azizi - Your water flowers are in the DigiTrad as Water water wallflowers.
The version my mother sang was -
Wallflowers wallflowers growing up so high
All you young ladies will surely have to die
[Except ----, she's the fairest of them all;
    She can dance, she can sing,
    And she can wear a wedding ring ]*
Turn, turn, turn again, turn your back to the wall again.

* I made the middle lines up, must have been something like that
A wallflower is an English flower (related to cabbage and radish) that can grow with very little soil, or even out of the cracks of old walls
A wallflower is also a girl without a partner at a dance.

Do you think that the link came before or after this game with its suggestion of dieing an Old Maid? "

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 10:15 PM

A wallflower is also a female who stands against the wall at parties while she waits-usually in vain-for a male to ask her to dance.

I hear tell that nowadays ladies often approach men at dances to ask them to dance. Times change..

**

I suppose that the only connections between the Water Wallflower game/song and the Brickwall Waterfall handclap rhyme is the fact that both are children's recreational compositions, and both have the words 'wall' and 'word' in their titles.

But think how much the role of females has changed from the women who is resigned to her fate in the Wallflower game song to the confrontational, aggressive, self-assured female in the Brick Wall Water Fall rhyme.

That is not to say that I totally approve of the in-your-face taunting street smart attitude. But I like that attitude better than either the fatalistic mindset or the "I'm better than the other women here" feeling that I get from that Wallflower song...

No disrespect intended to anyone who grew up with that song-or that mindset.

**

Fwiw {and it probably isn't worth much}, I wonder if the "Brick" part of the name "Brickwall Waterfall" comes from the Rick James R&B song "She's A Brick House".

Naw...

But maybe...???

I guess we'll never know.

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 10:33 PM

Since this is mostly a folk discussion forum, I guess it's a safe bet that there's a few folks here who aren't familiar with either the slang term 'brickhouse' or the R&B song "She's A Brickhouse".

Rick James is said to have coined the word "brickhouse" to refer to a woman who is "built" {meaning, a woman who is physically gorgeous}

Here's that song's lyrics:

SHE'S A BRICKHOUSE
Rick James/The Commodores

Chorus:
She's a brick----house
Mighty might just lettin' it all hang out
She's a brick----house
The lady's stacked and that's a fact,
ain't holding nothing back.

She's a brick----house
She's the one, the only one,
who's built like a amazon
We're together everybody knows,
and here's how the story goes

1. She knows she got everything
a woman needs to get a man, yeah.
How can she lose with what she use
36-24-36, what a winning hand!

Chorus

2. The clothes she wears, the sexy ways,
make an old man wish for younger days
She knows she's built and knows how to please
Sure enough to knock a man to his knees

Chorus

Bridge

Shake it down, shake it down now (repeat)

http://www.lyricsdepot.com/the-commodores/brick-house.html

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 10:54 PM

If the song "She's A Brickhouse" has anything to do with the title of the children's rhyme "Brickwall Waterfall", it would join a number of other R&B songs whose titles, refrains, and/or lyrics have made their way into contemporary African American children's rhymes.

Among those songs are:

ABC [recorded by Jackson 5]

Rockin Robin [recorded by Michael Jackson]

That's The Way {I Like It}[recorded by KC & The Sunshine Band]

Mamacita [recorded by Troop]

Fly Girl [recorded by Boogie Boys]

-snip-


Needless to say, I doubt that most children know that these songs are sources for some of the rhymes & cheers that they recite [or in the case of at least 'Fly Girls' recited, since this foot stomping cheer is from the mid 1980s and unfortunately it appears to no longer be performed or even remembered].

However, excluding "She's A Brickhouse, I'm 100% certain that those other R&B songs that I listed are sources for lines and verses found in specific contemporary children's handclap rhymes, foot stomping rhymes, and/or cheerleader cheers.

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: GUEST,Random Person 2007
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 12:01 AM

actually...iv heard a lot of versions of the one i'm about to say but i can't seem to remember all of it...
aywyz, i just know part of it goes like

"Brick wall, Waterfall.
Girl/Boy you think you know it all, you don't, I do.
So BOOM with that attitude!
hey hey
choo choo train
come and watch me do my thing,
boy/girl,
u watch out,
cuz if u mess me up I'll mess u up
P.U!
back it up back it up,
girl/boy u obviously need a tic tac,
not 1 not 2 but you definitely need the whole dang pack!
bye bye got 2 go, cant waste time with you dumb folk"

& that probably sounds weird...
i have a feeling that i either 4got words orthe rhyme just changed as it was passed formperson to person.

well, byebye!

~eRiCa 3/26/07

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Azizi
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 08:02 AM

Thanks,Random Person 2007 {eRiCa} for sharing that example!

Would you please also post what performance activity you did {do?} with this example such as doing partner handclaps, doing foot stomps, and/or doing cheerleader cheers?

Also, when did you first heard or learned this cheer ?
{what year or decade such as 2006, or "late 1990s}?

And what city, state, nation did you live in when you first heard or learned this cheer?

Having demographical information about specific rhymes helps document possible source materials for those particular rhymes.
For instance, I wonder did the Dickie Roberts, Former Child Star movie screen writers * come up with this rhyme by themselves? Or did they get it from some kids in a particular city? And, if so, where did the kids get that rhyme from?

Having demographical information from a number of people will also help document whether there are distinctive versions in specific communities and populations and whether or how the rhyme's words and/or performance activity has changed in period of time.

* Btw, I've also been told that this rhyme {or the Bang Bang Choo Choo Train verse} is also recited in either the first or the second Bring It Home cheerleader movies. I saw both of these, but have to see them again to check that out.

I'm wondering if you or anyone else reading this remembers these cheers {or are they handclap rhymes? maybe they're both} from those movies.

Best wishes,

Ms. Azizi

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Azizi
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 08:07 AM

Oops!

I'm correcting two grammatical errors from my previous post before an English teacher notices them:

"Also, when did you first hear or learn this cheer?"

and

"Having demographical information from a number of people will also help document whether there are distinctive versions in specific communities and populations and whether or how the rhyme's words and/or performance activity have changed in period of time."

-snip-

Any other typos or grammatical errors that I amy have made in that previous post will have to fend for themselves.

:o)

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Mar 07 - 12:35 AM

Here's another example of the children's rhyme "Brick Wall Water Fall":

Brick Wall Water Fall {Version #30}
a-b-c hit it! that's the way, uhuh, uhuh, i like it, uhuh, uhuh, that's the way, uhuh, uhuh, i like it, uhuh uhuh, break a wall, waterfall, girl, u think u know it all. bit u don't, i do, so POOF with the attitude. loser whatever, fly away forever!
-Noa ; 3/25/2007 www.cocojams.com

-snip-

I'm particularly interested how in this example the term "brick wall" has changed to "break a wall". I think the word "bit" in this rhyme is a typo for "but" or maybe it could be "bet u don't. "u" of couse is "you". I also like the "loser whatever, fly away forever" ending which I've not seen in any other examples of this rhyme -so far anyway.

These rhymes are a form of dramatic performance art. I've heard the word "whatever" spoken in these rhymes {and otherwise}. The person uses a dry, disinterested tone of voice, and through that voice tone and her {his} sullen or "I could care less" facial expression, the person addressed gets the message that she or he isn't worth getting upset or angry about.

Btw, the use of abbreviations such as "u" for "you" is pretty common among children and youth who post examples of rhymes on the Internet. Imo, I think it substantiates my theory that when it comes to blogging-with this population {and others}- speed is highly valued. If communicating is making yourself understood, why spell something out when everybody "gets" the abbreviation? This is a informal writing style that appears to be the norm, the 'in' way to write-at least it seems to be that way to me with children, youth, and young adults. It's the way many of them blog on the Internet and text message each other on cell phones. I suspect that when this population of children get older, this informal, quick ways of writing text will also carry over.

Of course, there probably will be a whole nuther way of communicating in years to come. Maybe folks will think words conversations and they will show up onscreen.

Ugh!

Anyway, that future will take care of itself.

For now, I hope that children & youth know how to be
"bi-textual" {knowing when it is preferable to use formal or informal writing and speaking text, and knowing how to do either well}.

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Mar 07 - 08:50 AM

Okay...

Well I guess I'm talking to myself.

I might as well sing a song- lah lahlah lah.

But seriously {in case someone reads this thread sometime and posts their thoughts on this subject}, don't ask me why, but it just occurred to me that the second part of the "pinch punch first of the month" custom that I read about in this Mudcat thread:

thread.cfm?threadid=47127
"Subject: RE: BS: Pinch, punch, 1st. of the month"

See these two reposts from that thread:

Subject: Pinch, punch, 1st. of the month
From: GUEST,skippy - PM
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 03:34 PM

"pinch, punch, 1st. of the month, and no returns"
Thats it really! if you read this on the first then consider yourself "got"

.....

-snip-

Subject: RE: Pinch, punch, 1st. of the month
From: Les from Hull - PM
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 03:43 PM

"A punch and a kick for being too quick"

....

I gather from reading the posts on that thread that 'pinch punch' is a British custom {and other parts of the United Kingdom} that is said on the first of April or the first day of every month...and if you someone says it to you first then you might get pinched, or punched, or kicked. I don't know if this is done in the USA or in other countries besides the UK.

Changing "pinch punch" to "peace punch" or a similar spelling of 'peace' can be explained by folk etymology {kids unfamiliar with the 'pinch punch' custom changing that word 'pinch' to a word that sounds like pinch {but why they didn't keep the word pinch I don't know, except it might not have fit with the speaker's air of indifference {actually the attitude the speaker is trying to convey is more like contempt} for the person she {or he} is addressing.

If "pinch punch' is really the source for the second part of the "peace punch captain crunch" line, that means that this line came from someone who is familiar with this 'pinch punch' custom.

??

**

For those who may not know it, the "captain crunch" part of the "peace punch captain crunch" is the brand name of a sugary breakfast cereal.

I guess that's enough analysis for right now.

I guess some of you may think that I need analysis.

If so, I'll say "Don't even go there", but in a friendly way.

:o)

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Mar 07 - 09:02 AM

Well, I know what I meant by that incomplete sentence, but in the off chance that somebody else is reading this and didn't 'get' what I was trying to say, lemme try again:

"But seriously {in case someone reads this thread sometime and posts their thoughts on this subject}, don't ask me why, but it just occurred to me that the second part of the "peace punch captain crunch" line may come from the "pinch punch first of the month" custom that I read about in this Mudcat thread: "

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Mo the caller
Date: 29 Mar 07 - 09:06 AM

Mmmm, peach punch sounds better.

We could now stray to
"Each peach pear plum
I spy Tom thumb"

Which was a picture book rhyme with a hidden picture on each page.

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Mo the caller
Date: 29 Mar 07 - 11:13 AM

You muight drink the peach punch while eating Captain crunch, if it's food.

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 03:11 PM

Hmmm. "peach punch". That's great, Mo! Thanks for suggesting that possiblility.

"Peach punch" might be a winner.

Now that you mention it "peach punch" seems to be a more likely source for that line in the Brickwall Water Fall or Bang Bang Choo Train or other such rhymes than "pinch punch".

I hadn't thought about the word "peach" at all and was so focused on "punch" meaning 'hitting' that I hadn't thought about "punch" meaning a drink.

Btw, Captain Crunch is indeed a food-if you consider pre-sweetened
breakfast cereals as food. Here's an excerpt from a website about that cereal:

"Quaker Cap'n Crunch ® was introduced in 1963 and has become one of the most successful pre-sweet ready-to-eat cereals ever launched. Today, Cap'n Crunch is the #1 pre-sweetened kids cereal in the U.S."

http://www.quakeroats.com/qfb_OurBrands/BrandDetail.cfm?BrandID=1

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Mo the caller
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 06:42 AM

I suppose it could come from both, if some one had heard the pinch punch rhyme and liked playing with words.

Which goes to show that good sounding rhymes stick, when the source may be forgotten (Cinderella rockafel

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Mo the caller
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 07:55 AM

If you play with words you notice that 'pinch' seems to have a thin, spiteful vowel sound, 'peach' is much more round and juicy.

Isn't it fun how language brings with it all sorts of overtones from past experience and reading.
Do you suppose strong peachpunch would pack a punch (is that where the drink got its name?)?

'Jimmy, don't play with your words! If you do that you'll grow up to be a cruxiverbalist.'

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Mo the caller
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 08:01 AM

I read a description (long ago) in one of the Opies' books.
They were watching some children play near a muddy puddle. From something that happened the children evolved a rhyme, and all ended up chanting -
its a duck
Stuck in the muck.
The Opies went away thinking they'd seen the creation of a new peice of childlore, but when they saw those children again it had been forgotten.

What has that got to do with anything?
Nothing. Except perhaps, that playing with words is a natural habit.

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Azizi
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 09:45 AM

Hello, Mo
what do you know?

[Talk about playing with rhymes...I think I posted that little rhyme before. But just because I think this a good sounding rhyme, you may not think so]

"Good' is in the "ears of the beholder". What sounds good to one person or one group of people, may not sound good to someone else or another group because of one or because of a host of conscious and unconscious personal and/or cultural associations.

For instance, I think there are sound perferences in singing voices and in personal names among ethnic groups- which leads to whole different subjects, but I won't regress...

With regard to "peach punch" I like the sound and "feel" of that much more than "pinch punch" or even "peace punch"

"Peace punch" makes me think of "pease porridge hot/pease porrige cold/peace porridge in the pot/nine days old".

It wasn't till a few years ago that I read that "pease" meant "peas" {like green peas}. I equate porridge with 'oatmeal". And whenever I think of green peas {which I don't like any way} in oatmeal {which I don't like any way}, I say double ugh!

**
PS:
Mo, it's nice talking to you about children rhymes. It's rare that I get a chance to talk about this subject in the non-blogging world.

You wrote "Cinderella rockafel"..is this the "went upstairs to kiss a fella" rhyme? Would you mind posting the rest of it?

Thanks!

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Mo the caller
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 11:40 AM

I learnt (from Nursery Rhyme books, not hearing it) Pease PUDDING hot...
I think it may be like mushy peas, cooked till solid. In the days before freezers and canning, dried peas, soked overnight would have been a poor man's staple (but even without the oatmeal, probably ugh)

I meant to write Cinderella Rockafella, which I've seen here as the rhyme you quoted. I assume it comes from the Pop song that I heard in April 1968 but don't remember (I know where I was living when I heard it, not much else)
You're the lady
You're the who
rocks me
You're the fella
You're my rockafella

I don't listen to pop songs much but was living in a YWCA, while flat-hunting and couldn't escape it.
You're my Cinderella

It was sung by 2 people and is all mixed up in my memory and probably wrong.

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Snuffy
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 05:05 PM

It was Esther and Abi Ofarim, Mo.

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Mo the caller
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 02:52 AM

Got it
Thanks

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 10:52 PM

Heres my friend and i's version of brick wall

Brick wall water fall you/girl/boy think you got it all but chu dont i do so BANG with that attitude Reese's pieces butter cup wind me down I'll wind you up Mess with me I'll mess you Up elbow elbow wrist wrist c'mon boy/girl you just got dissed

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 06:20 AM

brick wall waterfall
dickie thinks he got it all
but he dont and i do
so boom with that attitude
pinch punch captain crunch
i got something you cant touch
rieces pieces 7up
mess with me i mess you up
bang bang choo choo train
wind me up i domy thing

Subject: Brickwall Waterfall
From: GUEST,sarah
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 03:59 PM

brick wall water fall
dickie thinks he got it all
but he dont and i do
so boom with that attitude
peace punch captain crunch
i got sumthin u cant touch
bang bang choo choo train
wind me up i do my thang
rieces pieces 7up
mess with me i mess u up.

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 04:11 PM

Thank you, sarah for the posting this example of this rhyme.

Do you perform it as a handclap rhyme?

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 03:18 PM

Im not Sure if this one is on here but here it is anyway...


*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

A bing-Bang a choo choo train, comon' (Name here) do Ya thing...
I can't
Why Not?
I just can't
Why not??
Well, My Back aches, the lights too bright,
(When I walk,) my booty shakes from the left to the right, to the left, to the right, to the left, right, left, right,
Reices Pieces Peanut Butter Cup mess wit me i mess u up


~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The (When I walk) part can be taken out depending on whatcha saying

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: GUEST,Jasmine
Date: 04 May 08 - 07:11 AM

I'm 11 years old and this is how my friends and I sing it:

1-2-3 HIT IT!
That's the way, uh huh uh huh
I like it, uh huh uh huh
That's the way, uh huh uh huh
I like it, uh huh uh huh
You got the moves
I got the grooves
Brick wall, waterfall
Boys think they know it all
They don't, girls do
So BOOM with dat attitude
Bang bang choo choo train
Wind me up I do my thang
Reeces Pieces
7Up
Mess with me I bash (or mess) you up

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Azizi
Date: 04 May 08 - 10:59 AM

GUEST,Jasmine, thanks for sharing this example!

Jasmine, if you read this, I'm wondering if you would add demographial information {where you and your friends said this cheer-for instance which city & state and nation; and also when you did it [which year, such as 2008, or 3004, or the 1990s}, and also who did it [such as girls only]. It would also be great for the folkloric/historical record if you would share how you performed this. For instance, I'm assuming this is a two partner handclap rhyme, but maybe you and your friends do it another way.

Thanks, again!

And be sure to check out other Mudcat threads on children's rhymes. You can find a list of those threads by clicking this one:

thread.cfm?threadid=102055
Folklore: Play Ground Hand Jives

Best wishes,

Ms. Azizi

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: GUEST,RANDOM
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 06:01 PM

your mama your daddy your bald headed granny, shes 99 she thinks shes fine shes going out with frankinstine, you wish you wish you wish you got that frist kiss

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 06:26 PM

"Your mama your daddy your bald headed granny, shes 99 she thinks shes fine shes going out with frankinstine" is part of what could be a stand alone rhyme that is often combined with the "Brick Wall Water Fall" rhyme. Here's another version of those lines:

"Yo Mama Yo Daddy Yo bald headed granny she 99 she think she fine she going out with frankestein go franky yeah yeah go franky.FRANKY SAID:Brick Wall waterfall you girl you think you got it all.YOU dont I DO so POOF with that attitude.Peace Punch Captain crunch i got sumthin you cant touch reeses pieces buttercup you mess with me i mess you up.Hold up come back you need a tic tac not one not 2 but the whole 6pack i dont mean to be mean but you need some listerine nto a sip not a swallow but do WHOLE dang bottle!
-Tamia ; 6/2/2008; http://cocojams.com/taunting_rhymes.htm

**

brick wall waterfall girl you think you got it all you dont i do so boom with that attitude yo momma yo dadda yo bald headed grandma she 99 she think she fine she goin out with frankinstien shes hip shes fat she needs a tictac not a tic not a tac but the whole six pack sorry to be mean but she needs some listerene not a sip not a swallow but the whole dang bottle oh!!!!!!!
-ash; 10/26/2007; Cocojams.com

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: GUEST,Jessica!
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 01:03 AM

I'm thirteen, but the way I remember it fom elementary school is:

       Brick wall, waterfall,
    Girl you think you know it all,
    But you don't, I do,
    So POOF with the attitude
    No, wait,come back,
    I think I found a tick-tack,
    Not one, not two,
    But the whole six pack!

I also remember something about "peace, punch, in your face" and, "You got the brains, I got the looks, so...." something, hope it helps!

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 07:13 AM

Thanks for sharing the example you remember, Jessica!

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 07:23 AM

Here's another example of a children's rhyme that includes lines about "your granny":

"This is so tacky that I'm remaining anonymous. But I remember being taught this song in the early 70's in "the hood", where my aunt and her family lived. Of course, you remember the trash when you're a child:

Your left, Your left
Your left, right left
My back is aching, my belts too tight
My booty's shaking from left to right
abracadabra, soda crackers, evolution, revolution
eat the back of my butt, eat the back of my butt
Your momma, your poppa
your greasy granny, got a hole in her panties
And a big behind, like frankenstein
going beep-beep-beep
down Sesame Street. "
-Anonymous; January 27, 2000

http://www.streetplay.com/discus/ Girl Games: Clap & rhyme Archive through June 8, 2000

-snip-

The lines "My back is aching/my belts too tight */My booty's shaking from left to right" are often found in versions of the stand alone rhyme "Bang Bang Choo Choo Train". The "Bang Bang Choo Choo Train" rhyme is often recited as part of "Brick Wall Water Fall". See several examples in the next post to this thread.


* This line is usually given as "my bra's too tight"

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 07:33 AM

"Brick Wall Water Fall You think you got it all You dont I do So boom with that attitude Peach Punch Captain Crunch I got something you cant touch Bang Bang Choo Choo train Wind me up I do my thang My Resses Peices My 7 Up You mess with me I jack you up"
-Takana A.; 5/20/2006 ; http://cocojams.com/taunting_rhymes.htm

**

"it's called A-B-C Hit It! {and/ or Brickwall Waterfall}. It goes:
A-B-C Hit It! That's the way Uh-Uhh I like it Uh-Uhh.
That's the way Uh-Uhh I like it Uh-Uhh. Brickwall Waterfall
Girl you think you know it all. You don't. I do. So Poof with the Attitude. Peace Punch Captain Crunch. I got something you can't touch.
Bang Bang Cho Cho Train. Wind me up I'll do my thing.
Yummy Yummy 7Up Mess with me I'll beat you up. Wait, Come back.
I think you need a Tic Tac. Not 1 Not 2 But the whole six-pack. I'm not trying to be mean but you need some Listerine. Not a sip not a swallow. But the whole dang bottle".

{PS. To the owner of this website usually the Brickwall rhymes are games you play with your hands. Thanks!!!}
-lauren; S.A T.X ro ; 5/7/2006; Cocojams taunting rhymes page

-snip-

Additional examples of lines from "Bang Bang Choo Choo Train" used in combination with "Brick Wall Water Fall" can be found in other posts to this thread.

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: GUEST,anonamous
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 12:55 PM

abc hit it! thaTS THE WAY UH HUH UH HUH I LIKE IT UH HUH UH HUH THATS THE WAY UH HUH UH HUH I LIKE IT UH HUH UH HUH YOU GO YOUR WAY I GO MINE SO PEACE PUNCH CAPN CRUNH BRICKWALL WATERFALL GIRL YOU THINK YOU GOT IT ALL BUT YA DONT I DO SO POOF WITH THE ATTITUDE BANG BANG CHOO CHOO TRAIN WIND ME UP AND I'LL DO MY THING DONT GO THERE GIRLFRIENDS TALK TO THE HAND NO RECES PEICES NO BUTTERCUP MESS WITH ME I'LL MESS YOU UP DONT MAKE ME SNAP MY FINGERS IN THE Z-FORMATION HEAD ROTATION BODY CIRCULATION ELBOWS ELBOWS WRISTS WRISTS SHUT UP GIRL U JUST GOT DISSED!OH! TSSSSSSS!

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 01:26 PM

Thanks, GUEST 30 Jul 08 - 01:11 PM

I haven't read that version before-and I've read a lot of versions of Brickwall Waterfall.

If you want to read the versions I've collected so far, check out the examples that are posted on the School Yard Taunts page and the Cheerleading Cheers page of my website:

http://cocojams.com/

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 02:07 PM

abc hit it thats the way uh huh uh huh i like it uh huh uh huh thats the way uh huh uh huh i like it uh huh uh huh u go ur way i go mine so peace pocket in ur locket u got the moves i got the looks so how bout u just hit those books take a gess take that book get outta my way b4 u get hooked brickwall waterfall girl u think u got it all but ya dont i do so boom with that attitude peach punch apple crunchi got somthin u cant touch,u real ugly im real fine u got a grandma at 99 dont run away cmon stay yummy yummy 7 up mess with me ill mess you up cmon step back i think u need a tick tack onot a tic not a tac but the whole darn pack not to be mean u also need a cup a listerene u think ur awesome u think ur great im the girl u just cant hate u got it wrong i got it rite take the ride and hold on tight bang bang chu chu train wind me uup and i'll do my thing dont go there girlfrind talk to the hand dont make me snap my fingers in the z formation head rotation body circulation elboys elbows wrists wrists out of this u just got dissed OH! tssssssssssssssss!burn girl it aint ur turn so just back down and leave town cuz u aint got moves u aint got looks u aint got smarts u aint got books u aint got me u aint got u u hit the road and don't comeback soon have some fun ur shoes weigh a ton bye bye for now ur on ur way theres one more thing I got to say skate away away im mean I no it so cmon I just show it im cool im hot forget it im so popping so 12 hit it that's the way uh huh uhuh I like it uh huh uh huh that's the way uh huh uh huh I like it uh huh uh huh OOH! Sizzle! Burn!sizzle!pop!sizzle!rocket sizzle! Take a chance take a look look at me im of thehook!!!!say hey say ho say look at this big load bi bi now take a bow i just heard u owned a cow oooooooooooh!tssssssssssssssssssssssssss!

Subject: RE: Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 08:19 PM

brickwall waterfall stacy thinks she got it all she dont i do so boom with the adatuide peace punch captin crunch i got somethin you cant touch wind me up make me do my than take this take thatmake me do thje thang so take this take that BOOM