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Miskin 2007 cancelled !
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Subject: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Hawker Date: 22 Mar 07 - 08:06 PM Hi, Andy & Jillie have just made this announcement......................... It is with a very heavy heart that I have to make this announcement. Miskin at Easter 07 is cancelled. Following, in our view, over zealous application of powers embodied in the new licencing act, we have been forced to cancel Miskin at Easter for this year. We have been through lengthy complicated meetings and hearings, but we always believed we would succeed, sadly not this time. Please don't ask questions, or offer suggestions, we have fought very hard and been around most routes. Furthermore, any speculation or laying of blame could very easily upset the delicate negotiations we are involved in to secure the future of Miskin at Easter. Please bear in mind that the situation is such that any impromptu gathering in the Miskin area during Easter could also jeopardise our future hopes. You will appreciate the size of the problem in informing so many people. Please pass this information on to anyone you know who might have been planning to come to Miskin "on spec". You will appreciate how heartbroken we are by this decision. Thank you for the amazing support you have given us over the years, we will be back. We love you all, Andy & Jillie I am starting a new thread, as the Miskin at Easter thread may not be read regularly by all, and there may be people planning to come who will miss the announcement, please could you pass this on to all who may be planning to go to Miskin at Easter this year. I, Like most of you, am sure Andy & Jillie put up a brave fight against this happening and they certainly have my wholehearted support and kind thoughts. They must be gutted. I hope we will all respect Andy's concerns not to jeapordise Miskin at Easter 2008, and I hopoe to see those who will come, then, God willing. Cheers, Lucy |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Sorcha Date: 22 Mar 07 - 08:21 PM How sad. Bunch of pecker heads? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Leadfingers Date: 22 Mar 07 - 08:52 PM I had Miskin pencilled in . but then got a Gig on the saturday , which meant it was a No No - its still a bloody shame that the plug has been pulled |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Richard Atkins Date: 22 Mar 07 - 09:31 PM I refer to comments on other thread I have made. All on this one should take cognicance of Andys post report above. Just thinking of Andy and Jillie at this time |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Girl Friday Date: 22 Mar 07 - 10:00 PM Never been but loads of my friends go. they tell me what a great festival it is. Commiserations, and will put notice on my club site. This does mean however, that you can come to Orpington on Good Friday for the Tone Deaf Leopard CD launch. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Hawker Date: 23 Mar 07 - 04:55 AM Looking at other threads, there is a get together in the Peak district and a festival at Woodford in Cheshire.........for those who are looking for something to do! Cheers,Lucy |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: GUEST,Cats Date: 23 Mar 07 - 05:19 AM We know just how much Miskin means to Andy and just how much it must hurt to have to pull it this year. He would not have done this without exploring every single avenue and giving his very last drop of blood to secure it. Thinking of you both, and huge hugs. xx |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: North/South Annie Date: 23 Mar 07 - 05:34 AM Cats - My thoughts entirely! Hugs to Andy & Jillie. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Scrump Date: 23 Mar 07 - 09:52 AM I'm very sorry to hear about this being cancelled, although I'm unable to come myself (gig on Saturday, tickets for someone else's gig on the Sunday). I know from reading the various threads that a lot of you were really looking forward to it. Have the reasons for this been given out anywhere? Maybe there are lessons we can learn from it. Are other festivals at risk from the same "over zealous application of powers embodied in the new licencing act" (from Andy's words)? If any good is to come out of this sad news, it may be that other planned festivals can take steps to avoid the same happening to them. Is this covered in another thread? I see there are several about it. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: vectis Date: 23 Mar 07 - 10:22 AM Could a do it yourself sing and play be put together in just two weeks? I could probably do one here in my home town but it is so far away from Miskin that travel would be horrendous for everyone from the north. Is there a suitable venue somewhere near the border (well away from Miskin in order not to queer Andy's pitch). We would need a campsite with statics (for the indoor campers) and an on-site pub with decent beer or a pub with a stable, skittle alley, function room or barn attached within easy walking distance. On the other hand Ali organises a good do based round a junior school. The playground and car park for vans, the field for tents and the classrooms for indoor campers. The hall could, at a push, be used for a concert and/or for late night sessions. With a willing pub or three within easy staggering distance it could be possible. Has anyone out there got the contacts, or know someone with them, to make it happen? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Phot Date: 23 Mar 07 - 10:30 AM Andy and Jillie, I am so sorry the rug has been pulled from under you, I know what Miskin means to the pair of you and just how much hard work you put to make it such a special weekend for so many people. Pixie and I were so looking foward to a great weekend, as it is a special place for us as we met there. Chris. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Folkiedave Date: 23 Mar 07 - 10:37 AM Have the reasons for this been given out anywhere? Maybe there are lessons we can learn from it. Are other festivals at risk from the same "over zealous application of powers embodied in the new licencing act" (from Andy's words)? Unless Andy is willing to tell us the problems which he isn't at the moment as is his right, there is not much we can do. Dave |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Snuffy Date: 23 Mar 07 - 10:39 AM I don't think Cookley school is a possibility - Ali had to cancel this year's event (should have been 2-4 March). The Trout at Lechlade (Cotswold Capers early August) is a possibilty, but no indoor camping. Crispin & Claire Bartlett would be the people to contact about that. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Mr Happy Date: 23 Mar 07 - 10:53 AM Deepest condolences to Miskin Man Andy & all others involved. Let's hope its not the start of a pattern for other events |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: MBSLynne Date: 23 Mar 07 - 10:54 AM FolkieDave, there isn't anything we can do. Andy will be applying a delicate touch to try and make it happen next year. Anyone else putting their oar in could upset the apple cart. All we can do is offer our heartfelt support to Andy and Jilly, and they know they have that Love Lynne |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: My guru always said Date: 23 Mar 07 - 11:36 AM Snuffy, we're going to pop in to the Trout over the weekend to check it out (Crispin thinks it may be too muddy), and I do have another idea too. I'll be posting on the Miskin alternatives thread! |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Scrump Date: 23 Mar 07 - 12:53 PM I'm not suggesting anyone should interfere with what Andy is doing wrt Miskin, but it would be nice to know if Andy could warn others of any pitfalls they might be able to avoid, in case they are in a similar position - forewarned is forearmed, as the cliche goes. If it was something specific to Miskin that caused the problem, then fine, but if lessons can be learnt that could help save others from a similar fate, then that would be good. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Zany Mouse Date: 23 Mar 07 - 12:58 PM The Admiral and Mrs Admiral used to do a super Easter near Marlborough. I don't think it has run for a few years but maybe he could revive that. It was a super pub with a big camping field at the back, right next to the canal. What about the Seven Stars at Knowle Hill? Rhiannon |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Scooby Doo Date: 23 Mar 07 - 12:58 PM Scrump, He said this morning to leave it for him and Jillie to sort out please be reasonable and except his request. Scooby |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: The Shambles Date: 23 Mar 07 - 02:34 PM Affected by the Licensing Act 2003 |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: bubblyrat Date: 23 Mar 07 - 03:19 PM That reminds me ----There"s a good pub near the K & A canal at Seend, near Devizes ( The Three Magpies ) . They have their own camping field out the back, plus a 'proper' campsite right next door ( ideal for the camper-vans ) I have stayed at both, and the pub food was good, I remember !!Does any mudcatter live near there ?? Worth popping in ,I"d have thought !! |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Dave4Guild Date: 23 Mar 07 - 03:35 PM We are just very sorry to hear of the problems and will sorely miss out Easter fun. It was such a lovely place to get together with all our friends after the winter. Love & commiserations to Jilly and Andy From Dave & Brenda |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: GUEST,Bill the sound Date: 23 Mar 07 - 07:18 PM I'm sure if anyone can sort this out it will be Andy and Jillie any outside interference wont help. I had planned to go this year after missing quite a few sorry Andy. I wish Andy and Jillie all the best I feel sure they wont give up and this event will happen again. Best of luck Bill the sound |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: fiddler Date: 23 Mar 07 - 08:01 PM Not that I ever get there Andy, It is one of my guaranteed Canal trips of the year, very sad news I hope all goes well for next year. Cheers to both and commiserations to all of you for whom it has become an important annual event. Andy |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Eye Lander Date: 23 Mar 07 - 09:58 PM Scrump, every festival is different, every venue is different and so is every local authority and police force. Festival organisers struggle but eventually find their way through the local rules and regulations. The interpretaion and application of all laws is very much open to local interpretation. This year we came unstuck for reasons that will probably never apply to another similar venue. That's how life is. Now If I can accept that and just get on with working positively towards next year is it really too much to ask that everyone else just leaves me to get on with it without looking for political points and a chance to bring down the government. I have sweated blood over Miskin for many years. I know what I am doing, I've been mistreated this year but Miskinfolk will be back next year with the best festival on the planet. Just please stand back and let us get on with it quietly. Andy |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: The Shambles Date: 23 Mar 07 - 10:31 PM The interpretation and application of all laws is very much open to local interpretation. In many cases, the local interpretations used and the ones that do the most harm are in fact unlawful but sadly are rarely challenged. The only way avoid anyone falling foul of such things is to ensure that the dealings are conducted openly and to ensure that all experiences are fully shared to make sure that the law is being followed. To do otherwise is to play into the hands of the opposition and ensure that such things continue and that the treatment dished out will will be a lottery, dependent on where you happen to live. For whatever part of this country you live in - the legislation is supposed to be the same and is there to protect the public. It is difficult (without further information) to square the ideas that the festival's non-apperance this year was both due to the Licensing Act (as publicly claimed) and that the circumstances will probably never apply to another similar venue. What Scrump is saying is perfectly correct and to paint anyone who may not agree with your approach towards the wider picture and other events, and who may wish for more information and who may be just as upset and concerned - as looking to score politcal points to bring down the Government is just silly. More importantly - it is not helpful. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: The Shambles Date: 23 Mar 07 - 10:43 PM This is what people have been told. Following, in our view, over zealous application of powers embodied in the new licencing act, we have been forced to cancel Miskin at Easter for this year. I am not sure if others would wish to add to this and further pass judgement on the local actions as being 'over zealous' nor am I saying that doing this would help - they are simply asking to be informed as to what this application was in order to try and avoid similar last minute cancellations from happening elsewhere. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Richard Atkins Date: 23 Mar 07 - 11:20 PM After my last post stating "All should give cognicence to Andys request" Some do not! THE SHAMBLES read that and post on the BS thread not this one |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: The Shambles Date: 24 Mar 07 - 03:24 AM I'm not suggesting anyone should interfere with what Andy is doing wrt Miskin, but it would be nice to know if Andy could warn others of any pitfalls they might be able to avoid, in case they are in a similar position - forewarned is forearmed, as the cliche goes. If it was something specific to Miskin that caused the problem, then fine, but if lessons can be learnt that could help save others from a similar fate, then that would be good. I fail to see how the above is judged not to be giving cognicence to any requests that have been made. Where it is of course up to Andy and others what information they publicly provide or try to keep to themselves - what information those reading these words may feel they need to know - is a matter for them. If public speculation is the fear they have for the future - attempts to hold on to the facts no matter how well-intention - can only fuel and ensure that such speculation will take place. After such public announcements, there is only one way to end uninformed speculation by the public. That is by providing them with information they require. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Richard Bridge Date: 24 Mar 07 - 03:53 AM The word is "cognisance". Please let us not have another "Shambles-bashing" thread. There are three issues in play. The first, and I hope we will all give it the greatest weight, although in the grand scheme of the universe it is probably theoretically a matter of the most local and least general importance, is not to interfere with Andy's plans to have Miskin back for next year, and not to joggle his elbow. In that, if Andy wants any of us to help, I am sure he will ask. Unless and until asked we should therefore not contact the local authority, hold them up to public ridicule, or cause permit or inspire others to do likewise. The second is that the problem in particular that Andy faced, which might or might not have been why a TEN (Temporary Event Notice) could not have been given to have mandatory effect to permit the festival, could be a pitfall for others, so it would be useful at some stage to know what it was, so that that problem can in the future be avoided. This might be of general importance for all England (and, when Wastmonster extends the Licensing Act to the rest of the UK, the rest of the UK). But note, again, even when the problem is known, unless and until asked we should not contact the local authority, hold them up to public ridicule, or cause permit or inspire others to do likewise, in case we cause revenge attacks by the authority on Miskin and Andy. The third is a large point in the scheme of one of the bulwarks of the legal order of any liberal democracy, namely the rule of law. The proposition here is that in a liberal democracy, the citizen ought not to be subject to arbitrary discretion by any authority, and the actions of the authority must be as susceptible to the courts as the action of the individual. Trade, for example, would be handicapped if, by imprimatur of Cardiff Council, local weights and measures, or currency, applied in Cardiff that did not apply in the rest of the UK (Bring Back the Groat!). This is a flaw in the scheme of the Licensing Act, and, some think, a flaw in the approach of the Bliar administration, and it is a truly great issue for, classic constitutional writers (Dicey, Montescieu, et al) have said (if I may clump some strands of thought together and use an expression that now is but then was not current) that there is no true liberal democracy. This can be revisited by legal theorists over decades and centuries, and may be part of the epitaph of the Bliar adminstration, but certainly does not require us to put our noses into Cardiff right now, although it might be assisted by knowing, on that timescale, why Cardiff seemingly thinks a TEN cannot be given automatically to permit Miskin under the Licensing Act, when the DTI (who speak, in general, with forked tongue) seem to imply that the giving of a TEN is a cheap administrative act that will automatically permit an event. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: The Shambles Date: 24 Mar 07 - 04:56 AM But note, again, even when the problem is known, unless and until asked we should not contact the local authority, hold them up to public ridicule, or cause permit or inspire others to do likewise, in case we cause revenge attacks by the authority on Miskin and Andy Are we in a land ruled by law? It sounds from the above as if we live in one ruled by the Mafia (or in this case, the Taffia). For if - as looks to be the case here - the local authority's licensing policy has prevented this particular cultural activity - one of the safeguards is that this Act's Statuory Guidance requires that this policy is reviewed in order to reverse this effect. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: bubblyrat Date: 24 Mar 07 - 05:24 AM My initial response to this whole sorry affair was one of outrage and indignation !! However, some 'Catters immediately started to imply, rather threateningly I thought, that I might be about to do something precipitate that might compromise Andy"s future negotiations. I can assure all of those people that I was merely having a good old "drip", as we used to say in the Andrew, and a bit of a "bluster", which I found to be most cathartic ( as you do ).So, for those of you who are still a-tremble, there will be NO letters to the Times, NO diatribes to the Cardiff licensing authority, NO representations to Ms P----in fact , Llareggub, at least not from me !! I hope that that is quite clear ?? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: MBSLynne Date: 24 Mar 07 - 05:51 AM Me too! Andy knows what he's doing and will do it in all our best interest. Andy, consider me stood back to let you get on with it. Shambles, this is NOT the place. As Richard said, Andy will ask us if he needs help or anything else, knowing he will get it immediately. Let's leave it at that and cry on each others' shoulders meantime. Love Lynne |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: My guru always said Date: 24 Mar 07 - 05:52 AM I enjoy a bit of a 'bluster' myself bubblyrat, and am sure that people will find it therapeutic to vent their feelings here. Don;'t worry! I'm sure no-one wants to stir up any more problems for Miskin, but everyone who knows Miskin personally will be 'up in arms' to try to keep the peace that Andy needs right now. That's probably why we're all jumping in and trying to stop anyone from calling more attention to this localised problem. I must admit, when I first heard the news it crossed my mind as to whether all the 'chatting' about Miskin here on the Cat had actually done some damage - I certainly hope not! On the other hand, I can see that there is a need also for licensing problems to be discussed and challenged. Otherwise, as in many other parts of our lives, our rights and desires will be whittled away by those who make decisions on our behalf. Those of us who love Miskin are all still reeling from the shock of the cancellation this year and desperately hoping that Andy and Jillie will find the strength to continue their struggle, whatever it may be. That strength could be easily be worn down while trying to address issues raised here, so please, could we take the licensing discussion away from any of the Miskin threads? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Scooby Doo Date: 24 Mar 07 - 05:56 AM Hils, Thanks for that post. Please call it a day about the licensing mudcatters and all who go to Miskin Andy and Jillie have been through enough,let them rest and get over the shock. Scooby. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: pixieofdoom Date: 24 Mar 07 - 07:35 AM I'm so sorry this has happened guys, you put so much in to make a festival that everyone loves. Anything you need for next years spectacular comeback just let us know Fiona xx |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: The Shambles Date: 24 Mar 07 - 08:25 AM Shambles, this is NOT the place If this is thought to be the place for the local authority to be judged, blamed and accused for "over zealous application of powers embodied in the new licencing act" by those who have the specific information being requested - I suggest that this is also the place for the public to be informed of enough information - to enable them to judge for themselves if this judgement, blame and accusation is justified. For on the information I have - there is no way that I can hold an informed opinion on these events and their possible impact elsewhere. Some may certainly have the right to judge what information they wish to provide but not the right to decide for others that they have all the information they need. One can well understand the shock and frustration locally but there is the danger of it being misdirected and of those who are concerned about these events feeling insulted and sidelined by it. Especially when constant assurances are being given (and largely ignored) that there is no intention of stepping on anyone's toes locally and that this request for more information is being made mainly to ensure that any lessons that can be taken from this sad situation and can be avoided elsewhere. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: The Shambles Date: 24 Mar 07 - 08:39 AM The following from the Act's Statutory Guidance. Cultural strategies 13.51 In connection with cultural strategies, licensing policy statements should include clearly worded statements indicating that they will monitor the impact of licensing on the provision of regulated entertainment, and particularly live music and dancing, for example, by considering whether premises that provide live music or culture are represented on licensing stakeholder forums, and ensuring that local cultural officers are regularly consulted about the impact on local culture. Where appropriate, town centre managers have an important role in coordinating live music events in town centres and can be an important source of information. 13.52 Care will be needed to ensure that only necessary, proportionate and reasonable licensing conditions impose any restrictions on such events. Where there is any indication that such events are being deterred by licensing requirements, statements of licensing policy should be re-visited with a view to investigating how the situation might be reversed. Broader cultural activities and entertainment may also be affected. In developing their statements of licensing policy, licensing authorities should also consider any views of the local authority's arts committee where one exists. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Tradsinger Date: 24 Mar 07 - 08:49 AM I am as incensed as everyone else that Miskin has been cancelled at such a late date and have every sympathy with Andy and Jilly after all their hard work. In my opinion it is a scandal that the festival, with booked guests and a full programme etc, should be treated in this way. Carol and I have been to Miskin a couple of times and really enjoyed it and know it to be a great event. We will all on Mudcat of course respect Andy and Jilly's request not to rock the boat for future negotiations but I feel that in time we need to know what this is all about. If it is a question of a local jobsworth nitpicking over the small print, then it is scandalous and in time should be given full national publicity to show how the PEL is not working for the good of our cultural heritage. I am making assumptions here as Andy has chosen not to go into detail, but think that we should be told the reasons, when Andy thinks fit. What would be the reaction if a jazz or opera festival was cancelled at a fortnight's notice? Perhaps some authorities think that as it's folk, it doesn't matter, so who cares? - the answer is WE DO!! Grrrhh Tradsinger |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: bubblyrat Date: 24 Mar 07 - 08:53 AM " Stop it !! Stop it ,I say !! " ( Spotty Minnie Bannister, The "Goon Show " ) |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Hawker Date: 24 Mar 07 - 09:14 AM Those of you who go regularly to Miskin will know this already and those who dont, I state this to hope it helps explain what I suspect is Andy's reticence to go into detail. Andy and Jillie work bloody hard and pretty much single handed to organise this fantastic event, I have seen both Andy and Jillie at times almost in tears and stressed to the limit trying to keep on top of everything, they really do put their heart and soul into this event. At the moment, I think it is true to say that this heart has been broken and they are feeling exhausted, sad, empty and perhaps a little bitter. They need some time and space to heal, gather their thoughts, to face the fight for 2008. I am sure that Andy will, in the fullness of time let us all know what went wrong and why, but give them a little space, time and lots of love, I reckon they really need it right now, there is a plenty of time later for recriminations and an full autopsy! Andy and Jillie, my thoughts are with you, Keep strong, hope to see you soon, with smiles on your faces. Much love, Lucy |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Geordie-Peorgie Date: 24 Mar 07 - 09:21 AM Will yez listen to MGAS! The voice of reason is the safest way if yez want this te be sorted so that it gans ahead next year. Aah love Mudcat te bits and aah'm aalwez amazed at the way some w*nker aalwez thinks that there's a hidden agenda somewhere. There's nee hidden agenda! Andy just wants te sort it oot withoot some gobsh*te purrin his three-penn'orth in and bollixin' it up for ever. Back oot, Bugger off and stop whinging you paranoid twats. Let the 'guvnor' sort it oot himself. Rant ower!!! PS. G-P: "Hey, Bubblyrat! Put the kettle on!" Bubblerat: "Oh G-P! Aah divvent think it suits me" (Originally Henry Crun & The Delicious Miss Bannister (Darling of Bloodnock's Light Horse)) |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: bubblyrat Date: 24 Mar 07 - 04:12 PM Roper"s Light Horse !! ( Actually ! ) |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Polly Squeezebox Date: 24 Mar 07 - 06:18 PM Hey, The Shambles, I really admire your passion in wanting to sort out such political things. I care deeply about Miskin - but couldn't get myself worked up to the extent that you seem to do about political issues. You seem to have real energy that can be applied to matters of misjustice - but why don't you put it to its best use and get elected to your local council and/or election as MP?- Instead of just venting off in this Mudcat location which can have no effect upon Government/Local Council. Your enthusiastic energy and passion is clearly not needed or wanted for this particular issue of Miskin - Andy and Jillie will deal with it in the way they feel most appropriate. They are well equipped to do so - that is why Miskin is so popular and was voted by Mudcat 'Best Festival of 2005'. Andy & Jillie - you know the people who matter are there for you when you want to use them. Brightest of Blessings, Polly |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 24 Mar 07 - 08:38 PM Roger, Pretty please, just for once, hold your tongue and listen to what someone else is saying. It is obvious that Andy and Jillie are still in contact with their local authority, and involved in what must be very delicate negotiation to ensure that we only lose Miskin for this year. This is obviously a time for all of us to stand back and give them space to work. When I first heard about this, my reaction was exactly the same as yours. "Here's the chance to tell Tony the bastard that we told him this would happen, and beat him over the head with it until we get the promised review". IT WON'T WORK THOUGH! In the unlikely event that they take notice, the first thing they will do is quiz the local authority, and given that they can find myriad excuses to exclude us from using Miskin Scout Village, that's exactly what they will do, out of spite. A Pyrrhic victory, don't you think, to win the battle over licensing conditions, only to find them quoting Health & Safety (or some such)when they say NO! What is needed here is diplomacy, and neither you, nor for that matter I, can hold a candle to Andy in THAT department. Let be, Wait and see, and if diplomacy WON'T suffice, we may be able to apply the bludgeon at a later date. Personally, I pray it won't be necessary. Meanwhile let's just keep kicking our MPs up the arse without involving Miskin. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Geordie-Peorgie Date: 24 Mar 07 - 09:39 PM Caall your MP or e-mail him/her and find oot if the've signed EDM 1069 yet and if not, why not |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Mick Tems Date: 24 Mar 07 - 10:42 PM Our MPs? The MP for Pontypridd (which includes Miskin) is Kim "I hate folk music" Howells. You can bet he won't help you now, and I bet he's laughing all over his devious, ignorant face - I would just love to knock some commonsense, decency and justice into his ugly gob. I used to to be a sub-editor on the South Wales Echo, the Bristol Evening Post and many other daily papers, and I read with mounting concern all the growing attacks written by journalists on our serious papers about the thoroughly draconian and moronic restrictions caused by the Licensing Act. Even the Daily Mail reported the amazing story about this charity band being charged a phenomenal amount of of money by some little Hitler so that they could play Jingle Bells (which is not, according to the Act, religious music.) And I shall look forward with increasing anticipation (less of your spleen, Bubblyrat) to Plaid Cymru gaining a majority in Wales at some future election so that they can kick out The Licensing Act and any other mindless nuisance that hinders the spread of culture. It was trac, the All-Wales agency for folk development, that called the Licensing Act "a thoroughly bad law". I wonder which administration put it together? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: GUEST,Peter C. Date: 24 Mar 07 - 11:27 PM As Organiser of the Gosport & Fareham Easter Festival which takes place at the same time as Miskin I'm also genuinely sorry to hear there's no Miskin this year. We were never in competition. There's a big enough audience for both of us at Easter. Some people go to Miskin. Some come to Fareham. And a few mad individuals who love travelling along overcrowded motorways actually manage both over the same weekend! I can't suggest all Miskin fans try Fareham instead this year as all our season tickets and main evening concerts are already sold out. However, if anyone wants to come and sing or play in our bars and hotels you'll be very welcome. See our website www.gosportfestival.co.uk for details of how to find us. Looking ahead to 2008 I very much hope Miskin will be on again. And wearing another of my 'hats', as I'm a member of a local authority Licensing Board I'll be pleased to offer Andy any help and advice I can on how best to deal with local authority officers and councillors. Peter C. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: The Shambles Date: 25 Mar 07 - 03:11 AM Pretty please, just for once, hold your tongue and listen to what someone else is saying. When someone actually hears what is being said by those who are both concerned about the loss of this event but are also concerned about any possible threats to others and the wider picture - perhaps those people who criticise will have some credibilty. HOW MANY MORE TIMES DO CONCERNED POSTERS HAVE TO SPELL OUT THAT THEY HAVE NO INTENTION OF ROCKING ANYONES BOAT LOCALLY? Informed discussion of these events can harm no one. The current uninformed speculation and division can only be the result of intentionally keeping people only half-informed. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Richard Bridge Date: 25 Mar 07 - 03:41 AM Peter that is a very thoughtful and helpful post. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: The Shambles Date: 25 Mar 07 - 04:23 AM Instead of just venting off in this Mudcat location which can have no effect upon Government/Local Council. If that were just what I was doing - as you say this would have no effect upon Government/Local Council - so why are you and others so concerned about what I choose to do and say? I can't help thinking that if all the energy engendered in all this petty division, between those who should all be pooling their talents and pulling together - that these last minute cancellations and the general careless approach taken by our officials towards all forms of folk activites would have ended long ago. Perhaps it is this approach on our part and our willingness to divide and slag-off and blame each other - that actually causes the the problems that are presented to all forms of folk activities? Perhaps it is time for us all to be seen to freely share information, help and openly work together? Perhaps this local authority were expecting themselves and the local press to be swamped with letters from disapointed festival attendees and because this will not happen - as these have been discouraged - there must be a danger that they may consider that no one really cares that the event has been prevented by (it is claimed) "over zealous application of powers embodied in the new licencing act". For the public have not been informed. A public accusation has been made here about the local athority which blames them for the late cancellation and the public have be asked to accept this and not to to make any similar ones. I suggest that if the local authority were to be upset and dig in their heels for the future - this accusation from those who do have the full information - will have been enough already to threaten the future of local events. Being able to vent-off in such accusations against a local authority may not alone help much but it is not a luxury that can be indulged in but denied to others who may feel just as pissed-off about the loss of the event. And even more pissed-off after hearing the public accusation made by the organisers, of where the blame lies. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: bubblyrat Date: 25 Mar 07 - 05:00 AM I am NOT the Roger referred to by WYziwyg above !! I am, however ,the object of Dr Price"s displeasure !! He refers to my "spleen " --- Well, I think that we English are entitled to a bit of same !! I am FED UP of all this Nationalistic HATRED directed against us by the Scots, the Welsh, and now even the bloody CORNISH----What"s the point of it all ?? |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Richard Bridge Date: 25 Mar 07 - 06:01 AM If we wish to address the local/national political issues we must wisely wait until either the licence for Miskin 2008 has been obtained or it has been refused. We should wait for our enemies to show their hand. They will have to reveal it to Miskinman, and when he is ready, and not before, he will tell us more. Of course, there are a number of us who are saying "I told you so" about the effect of the act.... but this is not the moment for us (or Hamish) to send up our balloon |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: The Shambles Date: 25 Mar 07 - 06:10 AM What is needed here is diplomacy, and neither you, nor for that matter I, can hold a candle to Andy in THAT department. Whatever diplomacy was used - you seem to be overlooking the fact that it has clearly failed, as this year's event will not be taking place. I can see little evidence of any of this diplomacy being shown. What I can see is that many people who may be equally upset about the loss of this event being accused of threatening it. Publicly appointioning blame on the local athority without supplying any information and expecting people not only take this on trust but and then telling them that they have all the information they require - could hardly be described as an example of diplomacy at its best. A cynic could be excused for thinking that if this is an example of the diplomacy used locally - then this alone may be a major cause of why this year's event has been cancelled at this late stage. I am not a cynic and under the circumstances - I think that this initial attitude towards those equally concerned about the festival's loss can be excused for now. But I hope that on reflection a more sensible approach will prevail and that some information can be supplied which will help others and prevent any uninformed public speculation from causing any further damage locally. |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: John MacKenzie Date: 25 Mar 07 - 06:18 AM In my mind's eye I see a wee man in Weymouth jumping up and down shouting "I TOLD YOU SO!" The word schadenfreude popped unbidden into my mind. G |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: MBSLynne Date: 25 Mar 07 - 06:54 AM I don't know about anyone else, but I, personally don't have the time (or interest) to read Shambles ramblings. Why is this thread suddenly turning into a row rather than a discussion? I shall leave forthwith if it does. I got fed up with this tendency of Mudcat threads a while ago and nearly left Mudcat altogether. I was horrified when the Sidmouth thread deteriorated into a battle. Please let's not let the Miskin one do the same. Love Lynne |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Geordie-Peorgie Date: 25 Mar 07 - 09:42 AM Schadenfruede - Aah like the sound o' that Giok! Is it gaelic? Naah! Seriously aah knaah it's teutonic burra still divvent knaah worrit means. So! He's from Weymouth - Now there's a surprise |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Nigel Parsons Date: 25 Mar 07 - 01:41 PM Geordie-Porgie: It means the Germans can use a single word where we use many! No, actually it means "Taking guilty pleasure from the misfortune of another" So the automatic response to seeing someone slip on a banana skin. The suggestion above seems to be that Shambles is pleased to see the problems at Miskin as it provides a further opportunity for him to continue his long running rant. |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: The Shambles Date: 25 Mar 07 - 02:16 PM The suggestion above seems to be that Shambles is pleased to see the problems at Miskin as it provides a further opportunity for him to continue his long running rant. A suggestiom based on nothing but the very worst aspects of human nature. And one which reveals far more about those now attracted to post on our forum, who would wish to waste their energy on posting such things and using any opportunity to continue their long running personally motivated spats - rather than on doing anything positive. I feel the mean spirits who seem to occupy the offices of some of our local authorities and who seem to think their role is to obstruct all attempts at positive, harmless and benficial gatherings like this one - would willing welcome these posters into the fold and recognise them as kindred spirits. |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: MBSLynne Date: 25 Mar 07 - 02:23 PM Oh Shambles, DO shut up. You are a bore. |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Mick Tems Date: 25 Mar 07 - 03:21 PM Bubblyrat, what on earth is your problem? The "spleen" I was referring to was a direct quote by Splott Man, an Englishman who was offended and incensed by your bombastic "little Englander" remarks which were generated by a totally different thread concerning Welsh dance traditions - remarks which were made without one shred of evidence. Splott Man asked you to leave the thread, and quite rightly so. Here are some facts: You must appreciate that Scotland and Wales have different laws to England on account of the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly. (In Wales, smoking becomes illegal in all public places from April 2, much earlier than England.) In Scotland, music and dance are free to develop and flourish without the hindrance of a licensing act - in Wales, sadly not so. I reserve the right to vote for Plaid Cymru because I genuinely believe in their campaigning and visionary reforms to make Wales a better place to live in, and I fervently hope that they will scrap this "thoroughly bad law" immediately. Bubblyrat, you may rage at the Scots, the Welsh and "even the bloody Cornish" who are seemingly out to get you, but you forget one important thing. I have lived in Wales for 36 years, but I come from... England! |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: bubblyrat Date: 25 Mar 07 - 04:07 PM Just to fill you in a bit, Dr price. I am English, of Welsh ancestry. For most of her adult life, my great-aunt Julia lived in the village of Pennrhynside ( can"t vouch for the spelling ! ) on the Little Orme, in Llandudno, and I loved to visit her there.In 1965, whilst in Aberystwyth, I met with Cayo Evans and his chums,of the Free Welsh Army, and they were both hospitable and charming !! ---More like an Ealing Comedy than a Terrorist Organisation, and I mean that in the nicest possible way !! What saddens me, is the recent spate of anti-English sentiment which has sprung up, almost out of nowhere, in the last few years, and the upsurge in "regionalism" ,where people seem to be hell-bent on turning on, and destroying, the bonds that have been built up between the English, Welsh,and Scottish over so many centuries.As I said, it is even evident in Cornwall now, and I am deeply saddened when, at major sporting events involving England, Wales or Scotland, the English are always referred to as "The Enemy " , as if we were still living in the Dark Ages. You are welcome to "stick up " for Wales---indeed, so you should, and I applaud you for it . However, I am sure that you will admit that there is,in Wales today, a section of the populace whose attitude towards England is less than charitable . If, in speaking up in protest, and in defence of my own country, I have offended or upset you, then I apologise, and ,of course,I apologise unreservedly to Ned also, but please try to remember that English people have feelings ( and opinions ! ) as well.Believe it or not, some of us are sensitive enough to feel quite hurt,and confused, when we encounter anti-English feelings in Wales.So try to forgive us our pain. |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Richard Bridge Date: 25 Mar 07 - 05:06 PM Well, as an Englishman, I think what the English did to Owen Glendower was pretty unspeakable. |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Geordie-Peorgie Date: 25 Mar 07 - 05:52 PM Thanks for the translation Nigel!! Aah'm keepin' me heid doon for the minute! It's like havin' Martin Gibson back with us innit? |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Dame Pattie Smith EPNS Date: 25 Mar 07 - 06:57 PM Oh dear this seems to have turned into a racist thread for some reason. What is the problem between the Celtic countries and England? I have never encountered any bad feelings between us and I have worked with Calennig in England for 30 years. I love English song and dance and I love English tune sessions at festivals - in fact I had a wonderful time at Crediton last week at a sesh in the Ring o Bells. At the same time I AM proud to be Welsh and have been told I am an ambassador for Wales on many occasions - but you know it`s a funny thing that I lived with an Englishman for 25 years and now my "young man" for the past 5 years is also English... |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Richard Atkins Date: 25 Mar 07 - 08:26 PM Brill lets let this thread go racist. My Mum used a Welsh lilt in her woice to get served rather being ignored in shops in North Wales when I was Six !! That would let our loved Andy and Jilly have a rest! |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Mick Tems Date: 25 Mar 07 - 08:50 PM C'mon, Bubblyrat, let's go and have a drink together! |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Mick Tems Date: 25 Mar 07 - 10:15 PM ...Now you mention it, Calennig were booked at a Cilmeri remembrance day event, where Llewelyn The Last Prince of Wales was slaughtered by Edward's army. Cayo and crowd from the Free Wales Army were there, and much heavy drinking went on - including dear old Dafydd Y Dug, who was incarcerated for FWA activities. When I look back, it was a memorable but scary gig, and it earned us some FWA fans. Cayo later died, and he earned respectability and immortality by having a pub named after him (The Cayo Arms in Cathedral Road, Cardiff.) Ah, those were the days... |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: GUEST,::: Date: 25 Mar 07 - 10:56 PM Miskin at Easter 07 is cancelled.
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: My guru always said Date: 26 Mar 07 - 02:53 AM PLEASE don't feed the trolls!!! Guest of 25th March 10.56pm obviously doesn't know or understand the situation - PLEASE do not react to that post!! We must bear in mind that however much we descibe something in black and white, or show photos, this is not always adequate to the task of gaining understanding from another person. Especially if they are from different cultures. ps. personally I don't think that was gargoyle, too much sloppy formatting etc! |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Scooby Doo Date: 26 Mar 07 - 02:54 AM |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: The Shambles Date: 26 Mar 07 - 04:11 AM PLEASE don't feed the trolls!!! You just did. Can we finally regognise that our forum is for reading what others choose to post and for posting our own contributions? That it is not to pass judgement on and instruct others what they can discuss, how they discuss it and where they are allowed to discuss it. If your fellow posters have something to say, then why not encourage them to feel free to say it? If it is not to your taste - why not simply ignore it and move on to something that is? It seems to me that this thread has come into being because some people think their role is to nit-pick, obstruct and dictate to others what they can or can't do. It seems to be an attitude that some of our posters eagely subscribe to. |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Hawker Date: 26 Mar 07 - 04:38 AM Excuse me! Read the original post! This thread was set up to ensure that people who were thinking of going to Miskin would know that it has been cancelled and to prevent un-necessary journeys, It was put up here to HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sadly, as seems to be the norm on here these days the thread has been hijacked. There is obviously no helping some people! I always say what I feel, never feel instructed by others as to what I should or should not say - and always have the balls to post as Me, I have never hidden my identity. Happy Easter Friends, Cheers, Lucy |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: The Shambles Date: 26 Mar 07 - 04:51 AM Excuse me! Read the original post! This thread was set up to ensure that people who were thinking of going to Miskin would know that it has been cancelled and to prevent un-necessary journeys, It was put up here to HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I did read the original post. I do agree that it was set up to help and in my view its intention was very helpful and positive. Perhaps I need to make it clear that the following was addressed to the attitudes that caused this year's festival to be cancelled at this late stage and which created the need for this thread. It seems to me that this thread has come into being because some people think their role is to nit-pick, obstruct and dictate to others what they can or can't do. |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: MBSLynne Date: 26 Mar 07 - 05:31 AM I think perhaps it would be better now if we let this thread die..... |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: dj bass Date: 26 Mar 07 - 05:45 AM Dear oh dear. This must be dreadful for Andy, if he is reading it. Can I draw attention to the absolute pearl in this thread:
And can I congratulate Lucy on reflecting my views exactly? dj |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: The Barden of England Date: 26 Mar 07 - 05:57 AM With you all the way dj bass and Lucy.Andy and Jillie fully deserve our patience at this horrible time. And patience is a virtue John Barden |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: GUEST,padgett Date: 26 Mar 07 - 05:57 AM Anyone closer to the the North of England fancy a trip to Barnsley instead? Come to Barnsley ~ indoor camping at the YM from Friday to Mon am centred around the Shaw Inn I do hope however that Miskin is back up and running next year and that your problems are resolved check out Barnsley Folk Club ~ google ~ and go to the sandlizard link also on myspace Fri evening upstairs room no smoking and Sat day all pub, night upstairs club room costs you say? £5 for YM for weekend camping round in YM , £4 for Whaley and Fletcher Sun ~ raffles!! £xx beer!! food Ray It is a singaround basically [song and ale] type with Whaley and Fletcher on Sunday as only guests as such from 1pm any one wanting more can be accommodated at YM til Monday! Camper van space is a bit limited but resourcefullness will overcome! Jct 37 m1 1 mile relaxed quiet market town!! Ray |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Houston_Diamond Date: 26 Mar 07 - 06:00 AM I am disgusted by the effect this law is having in destroying another part of our culture. For hundreds of years people have got together to have fun by interactively performing in the "local" when modern technology didn't exist! It should be part of the national trust and heritage that these parts of our culture can be excluded by laws that cause it's demise unless it affects health and safety!!! I have signed a petition to overthow this law found at http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing/ which details; The recently introduced changes in licensing law have produced an environment where music and dance, activities which should be valued and promoted in a civilised society, are instead damaged by inappropriate regulation. We call on the Prime Minister to recognise this situation and take steps to correct it. All those (including neandathals such as GUEST,::: Date: 25 Mar 07 - 10:56 PM ) that love music and dance please click it and sign it :) |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: The Shambles Date: 26 Mar 07 - 10:05 AM UK Licensing - Another Petition UK Licensing - Contact your MP Affected by the Licensing Act 2003 |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Richard Bridge Date: 26 Mar 07 - 11:04 AM Sorry, Andy and Jill The problem with that petition as actually phrased and not as summarised above is that some types of music and dance should be restricted by burdensome regulation, and I for one am much tickled that Snoop Dogg could not get into the country because of his unpleasant conduct at Heathrow last year. |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Andy Jackson Date: 26 Mar 07 - 11:13 AM Now you are all watching carefully can you give us a hand? We need to contact Liz Crow and Fred Holpin. Our infallible booking system fallibled at a rather crucial moment and we can't find their respective addresses. If anyone knows them just ask them to drop us a line or email or carrier folkie or summat. Ta. And most importantly make sure that they know that Miskin is not the place for fun this Easter. Andy (anybody want a burger?) |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: John MacKenzie Date: 26 Mar 07 - 12:18 PM Onions? |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: The Shambles Date: 26 Mar 07 - 02:28 PM The problem with that petition as actually phrased and not as summarised above is that some types of music and dance should be restricted by burdensome regulation, and I for one am much tickled that Snoop Dogg could not get into the country because of his unpleasant conduct at Heathrow last year. Richard you must be one of the very few who would be in favour of BURDENSOME regulation on anything but most of us would be in favour of sensible regulations on many things But just nit-picking and taking issue with some of the wording of this one and telling all and sundry - is not perhaps the most positive of actions. Nothing is preventing you from starting another petition with whatever words you choose - is it? |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Dame Pattie Smith EPNS Date: 26 Mar 07 - 02:32 PM Hello Andy luv. I`ll have mine with a welshcake on top X |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: John MacKenzie Date: 26 Mar 07 - 02:49 PM Just try getting into the USA with a criminal record like he has, and see how far you get! I heard him say "We let the Beatles in" What planet is he on? G. |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: BB Date: 26 Mar 07 - 03:12 PM Andy, I've e-mailed Liz Crow, so assuming I still have the correct e-mail address for her, she will know. Barbara |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Eye Lander Date: 26 Mar 07 - 03:42 PM Onions, and a cheese slice on mine please and well done, can't stand under cooked burgers. Jillie |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Cats Date: 26 Mar 07 - 04:00 PM Hi Andy, I have pm'd you Liz details. Love K&Jxx |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Andy Jackson Date: 26 Mar 07 - 04:20 PM Hey this system works well! If anyone can think of people who might just pop in to Miskin do please let them know it's cancelled. I know this is repetition but I think a dose of paranoia is long overdue. Andy A burger in a jiffy bag is not a pretty thought but we could deliver if you insist. |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Sue the Borderer Date: 26 Mar 07 - 05:24 PM Andy, I e-mailed Liz Crow the afternoon your info came out and saw her that evening, so she and Fred already know. I also told a number of other people who hadn't heard from you at that point, but who you've probably been in contact with by now. I think we're all spreading the word as widely as we can but is there anyone else in particular that you're still trying to reach? Sue |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Folkiedave Date: 26 Mar 07 - 06:46 PM relaxed quiet market town!! Best description of Barnsley I have ever seen!! :-)> |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: North/South Annie Date: 26 Mar 07 - 06:59 PM Pattie I've PM'd you. Annie |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Mrs.Duck Date: 27 Mar 07 - 10:05 AM Andy, if you put the burger in the CD drive you could e mail them out :0) |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: Splott Man Date: 27 Mar 07 - 11:40 AM You'd have to do the bun separately though |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: MBSLynne Date: 27 Mar 07 - 02:41 PM I think Richard tried doing that with toast and the video player a few years ago....didn't work! Love Lynne |
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Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: The Shambles Date: 28 Mar 07 - 01:56 AM Subject: RE: Miskin 2007 cancelled ! From: MBSLynne - PM Date: 26 Mar 07 - 05:31 AM I think perhaps it would be better now if we let this thread die.....
Thanks. -Joe Offer- |
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