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Subject: 'You're so vain' From: GUEST,Tunesmith Date: 28 Mar 07 - 03:11 AM The thread about the Simon Sisters made me think of Carly's classic "You're So Vain". The line " You're so vain, you probably think this song is about you" always interested me because it seems to be a putting down "you" for thinking the song is about "him", but the song is about "you/him"! |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' From: Rasener Date: 28 Mar 07 - 03:19 AM Your so vain |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Mar 07 - 04:01 AM The link from Villan to Carly Simon's "You're So Vain" page gives a final answer from Carly herself: USA Today - June, 2005
"It's about Mark Felt!" Simon, 59, joked by phone Wednesday from her home in Martha's Vineyard, referring to the former FBI official who has said he was Deep Throat. You're So Vain was a No. 1 hit in January 1973, six months after the Watergate break-in that led to President Nixon's downfall. But unlike the Watergate principals, Simon says she'll never reveal the answer, not even when she or the song's subject dies. "I don't see why I ever would. What would it advance? I wrote that song in the days when people kept confidences to themselves, whereas now, people expose them so easily and readily for the benefit of their next movie sale." She finds it "bizarre" that fans are still speculating about her lyrics three decades later. "If people knew who it was to begin with, it might not have become a hit." -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: MG John Date: 28 Mar 07 - 04:20 AM Joe, I remember that song when it was first released. I first heard that at a new friend's back in January 1973. I personally think that it was one of Carly's finest songs. John. |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: GUEST,Guest Date: 28 Mar 07 - 04:24 AM Tunesmith's observation is very valid . The line he quotes is undoubtedly suppose to be a criticism, but confirms that the subject of the song is indeed correct to think the song is about him - and, in turn, is therefore maybe not so vain! I suggest that Carly does a rewrite of the lyrics and includes the line " You're not so vain for thinking this song is about you ". |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: GUEST,buspassed Date: 28 Mar 07 - 04:55 AM Always thought it was dedicated to James Taylor. |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: George Papavgeris Date: 28 Mar 07 - 04:57 AM I have always understood it as a double irony, intentionally written so to make that very point, Tunesmith. It's a rare writing trick, but great when you can pull it off; Carly does so in spades in this song. The only other example of such exquisite irony I can think of is the 10CC hit of the mid-1970s: "I'm not in love" - when he clearly is. But there are a few others around, I just con't think of them rioght now. |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: Georgiansilver Date: 28 Mar 07 - 05:19 AM Someone told me many years ago it was Mel Gibson but...who knows? |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: George Papavgeris Date: 28 Mar 07 - 05:30 AM I think you mean Warren Beatty - Mel Gibson was but a lad when the song was written. |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: GUEST,Keith Date: 28 Mar 07 - 05:54 AM Those Jagger backing vocals are quite distinctive. You can hear Mick's tones very clearly. I know one or two musos who fit most of the description in the song, although none of them has yet flown up to Nova Scotia to observe a total eclipse of the sun (that I know of). They probably think this post is about them... |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: Bee Date: 28 Mar 07 - 06:24 AM There was a total eclipse of the sun visible in Nova Scotia in summer, 1972. A number of celebrities did fly to NS to view it, but I don't remember who they were - Warren Beatty may well have been one of them. Certainly some contemporary American artists had flown up to view and film it, but I doubt any of them were the song's object; just serves to indicate it was a well-attended event. I've always liked the song, and thought the line was deliciously ironic. |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 28 Mar 07 - 06:56 AM Gosh, I had forgotten just how good those words are - reading them as text without the accompanying music brought them into strong focus again. What a brilliant songwriter she is - Warren Beatty was always the name I heard bandied about as the most-likely candidate. You get the impression that this character has flown to the Nova Scotia eclipse more to be seen than to see. Every activity is tinged with that flash jet-set-ness that suggests a movie star, and the inward insecurity that goes with keeping your place as a celebrity. |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: Bee Date: 28 Mar 07 - 07:10 AM Bonnie, no one flies to Nova Scotia 'to be seen' - we just don't have the necessary 'scene'. ;-) I suspect the point of flying here to view the eclipse was meant (by Carly's subject) to indicate how interested and knowledgeable about cosmic events he was, a cerebral fellow, as opposed to being 'just a famous actor/musician/whatever', thus indicating his being a bit of a pompous ass. |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 28 Mar 07 - 07:15 AM Fair enough :-) But... don't eclipses bring out all & sundry, simply because they're an Event? I keep thinking of that scene in Delores Claiborne! |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: Bee Date: 28 Mar 07 - 07:49 AM True - and I liked that book, and the movie, very much - in fact, I think King may have been referencing the very same 1972 eclipse. My strongest memory of the eclipse is of a certain egotistical minor American conceptual artist, who reportedly, without so much as a by-your-leave, trotted into a local farmer's cow field with telescopes and cameras, and was booted out with prejudice by the indignant farmer. |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: GUEST,Tunesmith Date: 28 Mar 07 - 09:32 AM George P, I think you're wrong about the irony, as everything in the song points to the narrator believing that the subject of the song is indeed very vain. "I'm not in love", is different altogether, and belongs to a whole genre of songs - "She thinks I still care" is a classic example - that stretches back to heaven knows where. |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: GUEST,meself Date: 28 Mar 07 - 09:39 AM "thus indicating his being a bit of a pompous ass" - You would think so, wouldn't you? I know I did - and so did this interviewer - but not, apparently, Carly: Bob Costas : ... Was it a single person or a composite of objectionable traits in a variety of people? Carly: Hardly objectionable! I think it's a very attractive man. I think it's a very complicated man who is obviously concerned with his image, but obviously worthy of my love or my interest. I don't LOVE just anyone. You know, he's gotta have a certain amount of character. If he was only vain it would be boring, but there's a lot more to him. He hobknobs with the underworld. Jeesh! As for "a woman with class", read her comments about Warren Beatty in the Washington Post and Fame interviews ... On second thought, don't bother; get off this thread and go read something worthwhile. |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 28 Mar 07 - 09:51 AM Yes, I know I've got better things to do... but... "In 1983, she told the Washington Post: 'It certainly sounds like it was about Warren Beatty. He certainly thought it was about him - he called me and said thanks for the song.' She didn't confirm that the song was about Beatty, although many have assumed it's about him because of his legendary vanity... The closest Simon has come to pinning down her source material was in an interview in 1989. She reportedly acknowledged that the song is partly about Beatty, but he was just part of a composite of three men she knew while living in Los Angeles. In an interview with Charlie Rose in 2000, Simon noted that, 'Most songs are a composite' although she didn't elaborate on who the other two men might be." |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: bobad Date: 28 Mar 07 - 09:52 AM "Bonnie, no one flies to Nova Scotia 'to be seen'" He would be going there to be seen by all the others who were going there to be seen. That's what they do. |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: Bee Date: 28 Mar 07 - 09:53 AM meself, there's likely not a woman in the western world who hasn't at some time been in love with a man who's both vain and a bit of a pompous ass (whether Carly says so or not, the song suggests it to me). Doesn't mean the man has no good qualities - we're all flawed. I like the song, and always saw it as an amused and even affectionate look back at an affair. I can relate to the sentiments expressed, having had just such a relationship, long ago "when I was quite naive". I still think of him with affection - and amusement. |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: GUEST,Tunesmith Date: 28 Mar 07 - 09:56 AM Well, of course, the narrator of the song ( Carly - we presume ) had an affair with the man, and so - even naive, at the time - must have thought he had something. And, one could put forward the view that the subject of the song isn't vain for a) as a celebrity, he must think about his image, and b) he is indeed very attractive ( for whatever reason) as "all the girls want to be his partner". But the narrator of the song definately thinks he's vain because if, we use the "I'm Not in Love" scenario, and she felt the opposite, then the song wouldn't make any sense. |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: M.Ted Date: 28 Mar 07 - 10:13 AM The point of the song is that he doesn't hear what she is saying, and only thinks the song is about him because he is narcissistic, and thinks everything is about him. Got it? |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: GUEST,Arkie Date: 28 Mar 07 - 10:20 AM I agree that it is a great song. I have listened to it for over 30 years and still enjoy hearing it. And I think Carly had her tongue firmly planted in cheek when writing it. I believe the irony was fully intended and no changes need to be made at all. |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: GUEST,Arkie Date: 28 Mar 07 - 10:21 AM And I couldn't care less who the song was about. |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: George Papavgeris Date: 28 Mar 07 - 10:30 AM Agree Arkie, to have the culprit named would be an anticlimax and would somehow let all those other b******s off the hook. Much better left generic. |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: GUEST,meself Date: 28 Mar 07 - 10:44 AM "always saw it as an amused and even affectionate look back at an affair" - Well, now - I always saw it more as resentful and scornful: once again, you've shown me what I know - first the stolen tools, then the jelly jars, now this! Okay, next time I walk into a party, I'm definitely going to do it like I'm walking onto a yacht ... And I'm going to continue what I had thought a shameful habit, that of checking myself out in decorative mirrors ... |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: GUEST,Tunesmith Date: 28 Mar 07 - 10:53 AM Well! I would guess that, for most people, the song would only work without the irony and double irony etc. I would say that for most people, the thing they like about the song is the fact that this once naive girl/women can now see the subject of the song for what he is - vain, shallow and full of himself, and that she can now articulate that for the whole world to hear! Now, how does the ironic version go? He's not vain. He's not full of himself. He's simply a misunderstood chap, and it's the narrator of the song that has lots of issues herself that she needs to resolve. p.s. It's interesting that George P raised the subject of the ironic " I'm not in love", because Carly did a great version of the similar themed Hoagy Carmichael song " I get along without you very well". And, no! I haven't shot myself in the foot by mentioning this. |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: M.Ted Date: 28 Mar 07 - 12:05 PM An interesting effect can be achieved by singing it in the first person. |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: GUEST,meself Date: 28 Mar 07 - 12:51 PM "I'm so vain,/I prob'ly think this song is about me"? (Grammar pedant alert: technically, the song is already in the first person). |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Mar 07 - 01:04 PM Like much of Carly's material, it's a very well written song. And she's very wise not to reveal who the song is about. Good for her. |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: GUEST,Tunesmith Date: 28 Mar 07 - 02:57 PM Little Hawk: You're wrong! Well, according to a number of posters, it's very clear who the song is about: Carly Simon. |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: Declan Date: 28 Mar 07 - 03:54 PM I seem to remember that Jack Klugman and Tony Randall, who were the satrs of the "Odd couple" TV series made a recording of this song back in the 70s. Every time Klugman sang "You probably think this song is about you", Randall would reply "Isn't it?" |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: GUEST,teachers pest Date: 28 Mar 07 - 05:01 PM The song is a real classic in the mould of Peter Sarstedt,"where do you go to."As for me,i fell in love with the song Aticipation after The Old Grey Whistle Test showed a clip of Carly.I took the day off just to order the album as an import.Probably not sent all the way from the States,as the guy just wanted to load the price a bit.did not not matter to me,the album was pure gold and still is to me. |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: GUEST,Gerry Date: 28 Mar 07 - 08:00 PM I went to Nova Scotia to see the total eclipse of the Sun. Didn't fly a Lear jet, though, just organized a few of my college buddies into a driving expedition from Massachusetts up to Antigonish. I had been planning for years to see that eclipse. When I was a kid & reading lots of science stuff I came across a list of predicted eclipses & saw there was going to be one on my 21st birthday & decided I would go see it if at all possible. It turned out to be a bit of a letdown. The sky was mostly cloudfree, but such clouds as there were moved in front of the sun just before totality and stayed there until just after. It was neat the way it suddenly got dark and all, but very disappointing not to see total phase. Carly Simon went to my high school (a few years before me). |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: GUEST,meself Date: 28 Mar 07 - 09:14 PM "I went to Nova Scotia to see the total eclipse of the Sun. Didn't fly a Lear jet, though ... " - Okay, I guess the song wasn't about you then ... Cross Gerry off the list! |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: gnu Date: 28 Mar 07 - 09:32 PM Huh? It's Mick! No brainer. Now, see if you can solve this musical triva..... "Starfucker" (Mick)... any ideas? Go on. Take a guess. Um, yeah, I know, so don't bother. See ya when I see ya. Yer welcome for the warning. g |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: GUEST,L. Chisholm Date: 07 Apr 07 - 01:40 PM In 1972, Kris Kristofferson and coterie traveled to Antigonish, Nova Scotia. Antigonish was supposed to be the best site for viewing the total eclipse of the sun. My uncle in Antigonish, John Angus, met and talked with him briefly on Main Street and commented to me later "I think that was the most self-centered man I've ever met. If it wasn't about him, he had no interest." |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: PSzymeczek Date: 07 Apr 07 - 08:34 PM I saw something on TV last week where Warren Beatty said it was about him. |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: GUEST,meself Date: 07 Apr 07 - 08:59 PM He's SO vain. |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: Tunesmith Date: 08 Apr 07 - 04:28 AM Of course, Carly's "vain person" could very well be a composite figure - artistic licence and all that. I case of building up a central figure by adding a bit of this character to a bit of that character. If it could be proved that Warren Beatty never went to Nova Scotia to watch the eclipse that wouldn't disprove that he wasn't Carly's main target. |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: GUEST,meself Date: 08 Apr 07 - 07:43 AM 'Carly's "vain person" could very well be a composite figure' There certainly seems to be no shortage of 'vain persons' for her to take parts from ... |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: Rusty Dobro Date: 08 Apr 07 - 09:34 AM I've always thought it was about me, but I've got enough strength of character not to be vain. |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: AWG Date: 08 Apr 07 - 10:13 AM Personally, I think the song is about noone in particular, its just a song with a 'get people talking' mystery to it. Simple as that. Not a bad tune, but garners far too much attention. But hey, maybe Carly knew what she was doing (controversy = record sales) Hmmmm....the 70's version of Brittney Spears... I wonder. |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: Greg B Date: 08 Apr 07 - 01:45 PM Seems like the 'wife of a close friend' might be a shot at Beatty. Then again, it may be an amalgam of various show-biz types to whom the song is directed. |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: Tunesmith Date: 08 Apr 07 - 03:22 PM There's a feature on Carly in this week's Radio Times ( UK tv/radio listings mag)which includes a section on the possible identity of the "You're So Vain" mystery man. |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Apr 07 - 03:44 PM I suspect it was a composite of a few individuals. Kristofferson, Jagger, and Warren Beatty all seem to fit the song perfectly, so I'd bet there's a little piece of all of them in there. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and give Warren the biggest piece. LOL! To compare Carly Simon to Brittney Spears, however, is kind of like comparing a magnificently painted oil portrait by one of the masters to one of those black velvet paintings of Elvis you see in the dollar store. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: Lonesome EJ Date: 08 Apr 07 - 03:52 PM This song had one of my favorite mondegreens in it... "You're where you should be all the time and when you're not you're with some underworld spy or the wife of a postman, wife of a postman." An interesting element is the line "you gave away the things you loved and one of them was me". This puts the rest of the song in context of a revenge song against a lover who jilted her, in my opinion. |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: GUEST,meself Date: 08 Apr 07 - 05:44 PM Yes, but look at her own comments about it. |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: GUEST,Guest, guest, guest Date: 08 Apr 07 - 05:52 PM But can you believe her own comments? |
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Subject: RE: 'You're so vain' (Carly Simon) From: GUEST,meself Date: 08 Apr 07 - 05:53 PM Did you read them? |
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