Same act twice

Subject: Same act twice
From: Mo the caller
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 11:02 AM

You see the same act twice at a festival. Maybe there's nothing else on, or you saw them the first time because you didn't want to miss, them then you realise that they are on in another concert before another act you don't want to miss.
How much repeated material do you find is too much?

And I'd be interested to know how often performers change their music and their patter (I think I find the repeated jokes harder to take than the music).

I can understand that young musicians may not have enough material worked up to performance standard, for several different performances and anyway want to finish on the best bit.

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: Marje
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 11:44 AM

I agree, hearing repeated jokes and patter is the worst thing, and there's no excuse for that in the same festival.

But I also expect to hear a substantially different musical programme each time if an artist is on more than once. I feel a bit let down if there's much repetition, unless it's of a popular favourite that the audience expect ot be in almost every set. I'm sure many artists are capable of devising several contrasting sets, possibly with different themes or emphases.

Marje

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 11:59 AM

In sets of 40 minutes, I would aim to have no more than one or at most 2 songs in a set that have been/will be repeated in other sets; as Marje says, some of the "favourites". That gives 80% at least "original material" for each set

Furthermore, in a festival of up to four sets, I would not repeat any song more than once.

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: Mo the caller
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 12:06 PM

My daughter said she went to a festival were there was only one concert at a time. An established performer who had played in a well known band was on as a solo act. The identical act got a bit much third time round. (You can forgive the young who tell jokes you didn't find very funny the first time and hope things will improve - and they do)

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: Severn
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 12:16 PM

Back when I went to a lot of Bluegrass festivals, The Dillards were an example of a group that had very good seemingly spontaneous, but well-rehearsed patter and an entertaining show, but you found that if they were booked for two or three days that you'd get to hear the same two sets verbatim three times during the weekend.

The late Joe Val & The New England Bluegrass Boys were an example of the opposite strategy, telling audiences right off, that if they wanted to hear a specific song, either again or if you'd missed it the first time, you'd have to specifically request it, because they prided themselves on never repeating a song during a weekend stand unless specifically asked to, as they felt they owed it to the audience. Maybe "Sparkling Brown Eyes" might get a repeat, but the crowds were fine with their policy and were always rewarded with a good show.

Even bands with an established and expected set of "hits" can manage to alter their presentations during a weekend.

The best acts that have been around long enough to manage to have an extensive repetoire always do well to vary their set during multiple festival appearences.

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: Mo the caller
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 12:21 PM

George, do you introduce a song the same way this year as you did last year, do you deliberately change it, or does it change by itself?

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: Deckman
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 12:26 PM

When this happens, I think it's a combination of two things: a shallow repitoire and a demonstrated lack of respect for the audience. Bob

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: Girl Friday
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 02:32 PM

Yes, it can be a bit much seeing the same act twice at festivals. The bigger the festival, the less chance of that happening. Sometimes the best places can be the siingarounds with guests. If you're there every day, you can find a different festival guest doing a spot each time. Yes, there's nothing more guiling than over-used patter. Some performers seem to be working to a script.

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: BB
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 02:47 PM

To put it from a performer's point of view, I don't think we've ever done the same set twice anywhere, and certainly not at one festival. But it does seem that some performers seem to have 'current' sets, usually from their latest CD. Personally, I'd get very bored with that, and I think that would show in performance.

As to the introductions, I think it's not unreasonable to use a similar introduction each time one sings a particular song - and yes, that does sometimes include - not necessarily a joke - but something which makes people smile or even laugh. But the introductions are intentionally to put a song in context or to be informative, so some repetition is inevitable. And when you have an introduction to a song that works well, you (or at least, we) tend to stick to it, more or less.

I would have thought that the content of the set is more important than whether someone has heard a similar introduction at another event.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 03:05 PM

Mo, at the moment I have some intros to songs that are effectively 18+ months old, but have been "polished" and work. So, when I go to a folk club for the first time I am likely to use those. For repeat club visits however I change them (as indeed I try to bring in new songs). And for festivals, nowadays south of the Manchester-Otley line I bring in new patter and some new songs. But in Fylde I will probably go "tried and trusted", unless I see too many faces in the crowd that I recognise.

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: Mo the caller
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 03:06 PM

I suppose it depends how much of the act is chat, and how much songs or tunes.
We heard Ali Bain & Phil Cunningham last night, quite an experience. As Severn says of the Dillards it sounded spontaneous.
But some of the anecdotes were quite long, so the first time they certainly add to the evening, if they come round again next year (I missed them last year) I would not remember how many of the tunes were the same and would like to hear them again if I recognised them. But the same jokes would be something to sit through.

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 09:55 PM

When we play a festival we make a point of not repeating songs on mainstage. We also try to do different songs on workshop stages.

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 11:07 PM

Last year's Alaska Folk Festival guest artist was a bit of a bust. Actually, a bomb. The board members took a lot of flak about it.

(Out of the goodness of my heart, *G*, I won't mention her name but her initials could be N.G.)

As is the usual format for guest artists, she did a set on Thursday night. Guest artists are required/expected to put on some workshops in the course of the weekend; she didn't, but she did present herself for one question and answer session. It was hosted by a local musician who fielded the questions- she had wanted a pre-'workshop' list of permissible questions but the host put his foot down about that.

On Sunday night, as is the format, she did another show- and did the same show, down to the same patter. She did do one song that she hadn't done on Thursday but that was the only differing thing.

Juneau, Alaska, is too small a town to draw a different crowd. And as it happens, Juneau is a very supportive town; they turn out en masse. But as it became apparent what was happening, masses of people hemorrhaged out of the hall.

She had had a lot of fans in town before that night- but she sure left a sour taste. One of the board members still speaks of her as "What's-her-name".

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 02:48 AM

Our regular monster festival runs 3 stages, approx 10:00 AM to midnight, usually 30 minutes per act, for three days plus half a day on the closing Sunday. Competitions and workshops are on the fourth stage (the only indoor one). There are also (at least) three "unofficial stages" in the campground, usually with "signup lists" where anyone (almost) who wants can schedule their act.

A very few "name" performers perform only on Stage 1, and these few usually do two to four appearances there. Stage 1 is a typical county fairground grandstand that seats around 1500(?) with standing room for perhaps another 600. Most performers are expected to appear once on each of the three stages, and a workshop may be one of a performer's appearances. Frequently members of a couple of groups will "reorganize" into impromptu groups for workshops. A few present organized "off-site" workshops at the nearby town park (sometimes with separate fees to attend).

With that much going on, it's irrelevant whether some do a fresh act at each appearance or if the audience who couldn't get in at one performance expects the same act at the one they attend. The performers decide what they want to do and most (of the regulars at least) are pretty much aware of what they'll get from a particular act.

Different performers attract different audiences. If they make their audiences happy, they come back (sometimes) and if they don't they're less likely to be booked again.

A smaller festival, or one with more limited facilities, may need to make more decisions about what those who attend will expect, and may need to set more specific rules for what performers should do. The more rules are made, the more difficult it gets to find acts who will agree with them, but without a "policy" that meets the expectations of the audience the festival wants to attract, the success of the whole festival may be less than healthy. That's one of the reasons I've found "who's going" to be as useful as looking at "who's performing" when I decide whether a festival is worth attending.

I have determined that just because I attend, doesn't mean they'll change the rules just for me. The festival organizers may be content with attracting those with tastes and tolerances that differ from mine (generic classification idiots, subclass with time and money).

John

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 03:44 AM

all this suggests that a given performer is only playing to you (any individual). What about the people who didn't get to see the first performance. Is it perhaps too high an expectation to want a performer to play different sets each time they play. What about the songs that the people missed in the first performance. Why go to see the same artist more than once at any festival anyway? What do you expect? that they ask each member of an audience 'have you heard me sing/play this one yet' get real!!
chris

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: Seaking
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 04:12 AM

Most of the previous comments are from the performers point of view, which I understand, but there's another perspective here too.

Festivals are great for discovering artists you've never seen (or even heard of) before. I've seen performances, liked the artist or a particular song so much I've gone back for a second time and then been disappointed not to hear at least some of the same material again.

Striking the balance is the answer IMHO; mix it up a bit but do the favourites every time, perhaps putting the variation into the chatter and anecdotes rather than the music.

Chris

(Not ther same Chris as last post)

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 04:25 AM

Doing the 'same act' twice at a festival is bad enough but how about when the artist is doing the same act TWO YEARS LATER!!

I saw a certain talented and pretty fiddler at a festival down south (i.e., further south and west than London) in the early 1980's and was reasonably impressed. She was witty, skilled and seemed to know what she was doing. I went to see her at the South Petherton festival 2 years later and it was the identical set - even down to the scripted intro to a particular joke about a 3 fingered fiddler. Unfortunately, I'm sitting in the front row, and being blessed with a good memory and loud mouth, was in the process of telling my companion that this spiel was leading up to the joke about the three fingered fiddler. Of course, just then, as it is wont to do, the room went silent for a split second... She gave me what can only be described as an 'old fashioned look' and proceeded to tell the three fingered fiddler joke through gritted teeth... We've never really got on since then, which was unfortunate because she seemed to be at every festival and club I went to or helped run!

Funnily enough though, I never heard the joke about the three fingered fiddler again!

I say it's worse because the artiste herself is actually an extremely talented player and naturally witty and chatty. Her act was bloody damn good, a great mix of anecdote and music, but to not change it after 2 years in the mainstream was pretty dire. Had it been the same season, it would have been acceptable, sensible even. But 2 years on? Smacked a lot of 'one trick pony' which she clearly wasn't and has sinced proved not to be.

As for seeing the same artist more than once at a festival - sometimes you don't get a choice. The larger the festival, the better the chances are that you'll be able to avoid hearing (even if you're not attending) the same act more than once. On a smaller 'enclosed' site, like Towersey, it's nigh on impossible to miss them.

You'll find it's usually the newer faces on the scene who don't have the wealth of material to draw on, that will repeat themselves over a weekend. It's only a problem if you expect them to know every song/tune ever written and have the wisdom of ages at their beck and call. Sometimes, I've made a point of seeing the second set of a newer artist - they'll have found their stride and possibly improved the second time around.

The problem I have is finding festivals within my budget that don't have the same acts as the others I go to. Consequently, I find I'm limited in the festivals I attend, to about three a year.

When I go to Mudcat gathers, although the basic format is pretty much the same every year - the music and the people are not. There are always new people to meet and hug, new tunes or songs to play and steal, new conversations with old friends to have.   That's how I remember some of the smaller festivals of 25 years ago, and it's why I like them so much.

LTS

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: treewind
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 05:13 AM

We certainly wouldn't do the same programme on two sets in the same festival - we sometimes do an identical set at folk clubs widely geographically separated, and we have records (now organised in a database) of set lists so when we revisit a club we repeat as little as possible. Our intros tend to change naturally over time and I am wary of developing too much of a fixed script in case somebody starts joining in with the intro!

The CHARM show is scripted but that has to be because it's more complicated and because, intentionally, we are mostly introducing each other's material. But that doesn't matter because the show is (so far) a fairly infrequent performance.

We do hear from the audience side that people like to hear some of the same songs again, which is reassuring if only because it shows that someone is listening. The temptation, though, is to prepare a 'killer' set and use it everywhere, because the alternative involves using weaker material and nobody wants to do that.

I don't know about others, but we work quite hard on scheduling sets for a festival to steer the tricky course between repetition and giving every venue some of your best tunes and songs. We also have to plan round instruments as there's no point in taking all* for a half hour set. I'm hoping that putting the repertoire on a database will also help to keep track of perfectly good material that we haven't done for such a long time that we tend to forget about it.

As for repeating the same set after two years, no excuse for that. We keep arranging new stuff - if we didn't I don't know why we'd be playing folk music at all.

Anahata
*two concertinas, cello, banjo, 5 melodeons, not to mention the merchandise

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: Rasener
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 06:34 AM

Anahata
I believe you have the right approach, and am looking forward very much to finally getting you and Mary at Faldingworth Live.

As for same act twice, I am more concerned about the same performers appearing at the majority of Festivals.

I like Moor & Coast, becuase Glen Rogers, tries to vary the performers each year and also brings in new up and coming performers.

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 07:46 AM

Villain, that's exactly what reduces the number of festivals that I wish to go to - the similarity of the line-ups coupled with the distance I'd have to travel to see a different group of performers.

LTS

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: Rasener
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 07:49 AM

Yes Liz, it seems to be getting very stereo typed and the cost involved means that a lot of people have to think very seriously how they spend their money.
Les

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: PoppaGator
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 01:16 PM

If the festival has multiple stages competing for the audience's attention, it is less likely that many spectators would attend each of a given performer's shows. In such cases (like the New Orleans Jazz & Heritage Festival, coming right up this coming weekend and the next), it makes sense to include a fair amount of "overlap" ~ maybe 40-50% of each set consisting of repeated material, the artist's most popular numbers.

Where there are fewer stages and more appearances per performer, it is more important that each appearance be "fresh" and different, because most if not all of the audience is likely to be the same for each show.

Repeating songs/tunes is one thing, of course, but repeating banter and jokes ~ especially verbatim! ~ is ten times worse. Liz the Squak's story tells us why: the performer makes an immediate bad impression on anyone and everyone in the crowd who's hearing the stuff for the second (or more) time, leaving a bad taste that potentially outweighs any favorable reaction the folks might have had to the essential part of the performance, the music iteself!

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 01:17 PM

I would rather not hear the repeated songs..but I can tolerate it I like them well enough...I absolutely do not want to hear the same chatter again though..that is plain weird...mg

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: Girl Friday
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 01:19 PM

I can't remember Tom and Barbara ever doing the same act twice.. theur repertoirre is so vast. Your intros are good Barbara, and informative.

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 01:50 PM

I'm a little irritated by all the irritation being expressed here ... Audiences expect an act to be extremely slick, with virtually flawless musical performance, and they expect performers to be comedians as well as musicians. Some people have to rehearse endlessly a limited number of pieces and a few jokes to be able to deliver this kind of an act. I'm sure most of them would prefer to be able to step onto a stage completely unrehearsed and blow the house away with their musicianship and rapid-fire repartee - but MAYBE THEY'RE JUST NOT THAT GOOD. So - you thought they were great, you find they don't stand up to a second listen and you're disappointed - it's nothing to get worked up about; just cross them off your "must-see" list and move on.

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 02:11 PM

As I said, Juneau is a small town- made even smaller by its land-locked location. You can get here only by air or by water; no roads out of town, which means that we can't draw from neighboring communities. Not to mention that "neighboring communities" are of about a hundred people and are at least 4 hours away by ferry.

So, yes. Our Folk Festival has only one stage in the evenings. And yes, we do expect our guest artists to have a mostly different show the second time.

This folk festival just completed its 33rd year and last year's guest was a first.

This year we had the Carolina Chocolate Drops. Marvelous.

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: dwditty
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 02:17 PM

Certainly one of the main ideas of good performance is to come across as if it is natural. The fact is, though,for almost everyone, getting on stage to sing and be engaging and make them laugh and cry and everything in between is not a natural situation. So..most performers practice enough songs to put together a show and sprinkle it with some clever patter to break things up. WHile repeating 2 shows for the same audience certainly demonstrates some degree of laziness, to expect a 100% fresh show is not realistic either. If I were to see a performer multiple times at a festival, I would assume he has booked several shows to reach more people, not the same people over and over...as such, I would give him a break. Also, if I like a performer enough to see them twice in 2 days, I probably would not much care what they sang. For the most part, when a performer finds something that works, they stick with it. For example, Josh White used to break the same string at the same point in the same song at every show. He would keep the song going while he changed strings - always to a big crowd reaction.

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: PoppaGator
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 02:22 PM

If any given act is "JUST NOT THAT GOOD," they shouldn't be scheduled for multiple appearances at an event where people pay an admission fee in order to be entertained!

Some degree of professionalism should be expected, which would include an awareness that each time a crowd gathers for your festival appearance, some of them might well be "repeat offenders" catching your act for a second (or third!) time. If you can't offer an entirely new and different set list each time around, you should at least be able to vary the order of the pieces in your limited repertoire and, between musical numbers, to avoid repeating memorized banter in a word-for-word fashion!

However, "Guest, meself," I do agree with you where you say that if...

...you find they don't stand up to a second listen and you're disappointed - it's nothing to get worked up about; just cross them off your "must-see" list and move on.

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: GUEST,Geoff Wright
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 02:47 PM

Same act, word for word, sounds a good idea ..... how else are you able to set your watch at a festival.

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: BB
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 02:57 PM

"I'm hoping that putting the repertoire on a database will also help to keep track of perfectly good material that we haven't done for such a long time that we tend to forget about it."

Good point, Anahata - and surely that's one of the main points about folk material - generally speaking, if it was worth singing/playing at one time, it ought always to be worth doing in the future. But it is difficult to keep everything right up to performance standard, so it's worth reminding yourself of it now and again, and keeping it in there.

And putting it on a database does work - we've done it for years.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: Ernest
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 03:22 PM

Looks like sometimes listeners have a better memory than artists... ;0)

In the long run avoiding these repetitions is in the owen interests of the artists, otherwise people would say "oh no, I won`t go to see him again, he`ll do the same stuff again once more..."

That said I will tolerate the repetition of certain jokes if the music is worth it and the repetition of songs if I like them - - but both will get boring after a while (and boring is not entertaining).

Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: dwditty
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 04:45 PM

hmmmm..>I listen to cds over and over...sometimes one will spend weeks in the car stereo.

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 05:51 PM

Oscar Brand, who probably knows more folk songs than any living being on this planet, repeated the same set of songs 5 years in a row at an annual festival that I used to attend.

                                              SOL

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: GUEST,Sharon G
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 12:04 AM

Our band has usually gets one 30-45 minute set at most of the festivals we play at. However, we have occasionally performed two 45 minute sets during a 2 day festival. We wouldn't think of performing the same material!

At one 2 day festival I attended, I noticed a headliner group that played the identical set not just during the same weekend, but in two different years. It does help sell more recording to be able to say "This is from our (1st, 2nd, 3rd etc) CD" but I was disappointed that such good musicians did not prepare new material.

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: Mo the caller
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 05:33 AM

There's a lot to be said for the 'row of chairs on the stage - each sing a song in turn' format. That way the banter is spontaneous.

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: Betsy
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 07:40 AM

Just from a slightly differnt angle I've heard Ralph McTells performance being slagged-off 'cos he didn't sing "Streets of London", and van Morrison 'cos he didn't sing Brown eyed girl.
Can't think of anymore examples, but I would expect a top liner at a Fest to be able repeat one or two songs in a 2 x 45 minute sets especially at different locations within a very tight time frame at the same Fest.
At the Final concerts (2 run sinmultaneously) at Saltburn , Garbutt is 1st performer at one concert, and final performer at the other.
Both concerts will be full - so I don't see the problem of repeating a song if it went down well in the first concert.

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 10:57 AM

It IS disappointing when an artist famous for a particular song doesn't DO that particular song during a concert, but I think most folkies realise that someone like Ralph McTell did an awful lot more than just that one song. However, the artist should also remember that probably a third or a half of their audience is there BECAUSE of that one song and are not likely to come back again if they aren't given what they want.

The example I told of above involves someone who was fairly new on the scene the first time I saw her. Because of the way festivals go, I saw her two or three times that year, and heard the same spiel each time. That's OK, she was on tour, it's hard to prepare new stuff when you're living in a caravan for 9 months; even the best acts in the world start with a basic script for each show... but still to be using it 2 years later - that's too much!

LTS

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: MMario
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 11:00 AM

*grin* I have to laugh because there are some shows I get exposed to that are working from the exact same script 10 years since I've first seen them. word for word banter and quips.

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 11:04 AM

How many years now has "Mousetrap" been running? Wonder how much they've changed the script over the years?

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 11:15 AM

YEah, but that's a written down play... those words are stuck, like the dots on sheet music - it's the bits that tie those pieces together that should be organic and change, if only to stop the audience getting RSI (that's Repetative Script Insult)!

LTS

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: MMario
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 11:20 AM

Of course you do sometimes get the audiences that like to say the dialog along with the musicians; like with a cult movie...

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 11:27 AM

Now when it gets to where they all at once throw toast at the stage, that's where I draw the line ...

Subject: RE: Same act twice
From: JedMarum
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 11:31 AM

Good question!

This is one I face regularly. When I repeat I do so on-purpose! It has nothing to do with the amount of material I can play. I can play for several hours without repeating.

At big festivals, I presuem that I will have 80 percent new audience at each of (normally) four shows. If I amplaying with a band, I map out the sets ahead of time and leave wiggle room for changes. I select the songs I wish to repeat for the entire festival - some twice, some three times - never all four, and then I place them in each of the sets in a differnet order and surrounded by new material.

WHY repeat? Because there are songs I wish to highlight for that weekend - my sets are always planned around the "conversation" I wish to have with an audience. I am there to tell my tales, and isng my songs for the weekend - I want to repeat some of the songs and tales. AND audience members always ask for some repeats.

At smaller festivals where I'm apt to have more repeat audience members, I stagger the repitition of songs. I repeat fewer and spread them out, play them on different instruments or even with different arrangements.

I never repeat entire sets. I always tell the stories from the top of my head - but if they have the same elements, those elements may get repeated.

Having said all of that - I am always mindful of the repitition and those folks who may have heard the song and/or story previously.

At festivals, there are certin songs that people expect me to play. They will ask for thsoe sonogs - they will tell me they are disappointed if I don;t play them. So I plan ahead. I list those few songs in that category, and space them out over the weekend.