Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST,Henryp
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 07:33 AM

My friend at work, Garth Harper, told me that his elder brother, as a cadet, was one of the crew who sailed the Cutty Sark from Falmouth to Greenhithe.

Garth retired several years ago, and I think his brother was some years older than him.

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Bruce D
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 05:37 AM

This will be the second time that the Cutty Sark has been fully restored.

The first was when she was brought back to England from Portugal and privitely restored in the 1920/30. When the Captain Wilfred Dowman died his widow gave the Cutty Sark to The Thames Nautical Training Collage (who already had a 86 Gun "Ship of the Line" HMS Worcester orginally names HMS Frederick William)in 1938.

The Cutty Sark was sailed from the Thames Docks around to the Collage in 1938, officially she was towed using sails to assist, but only in the last 20 odd years has the fact that the Cutty Sark was sailed un-assisted has been recognized.

My father has been acknowledged now as been the last surviving man from the crew of Cadets. He is officially the Last Man to have sailed the Cutty Sark.

Bruce D

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST,Henryp
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 04:54 PM

Charley, the documentary isn't broadcast until 8pm next Tuesday 16 February.

Cutty Sark: Out of the Ashes. 'The old girl's not dead quite yet.'

It's on the History Channel (UK) - I shall have to wait until it appears on good old terrestrial TV.

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 12:55 PM

The ambitious restoration plan calls for the ship to be raised eleven feet off the ground, allowing a glassed-over function space to go underneath.

Steel beams, punched through the ship, would hold it in place. Supporters of the scheme say it gives the vessel a modern, "iconic" look.

What moron came up with this idea? The Cutty Sark already has an iconic look - a 19th Century icon. Why would anyone want to try to turn it into a 21st Century one?

Perhaps it's just as well they're running out of money, it might force a re-think.

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: kendall
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 12:46 PM

Who is doing the rebuilding, The three Stooges?

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 10:44 AM

When our friends in Oz rebuilt the 19th century barque James Craig, she was moored at the National Maritime Museum, and actually sailed on a regular schedule. What a contrast to the current plans for the Cutty Sark.

Until I read this article I had a lot of respect for the National Maritime Museum at Greenwich.

And the photo caption "front view" is wrong!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 10:33 AM

Continuation of yesterday's comment: Putting a sailing vessel in the air converts her from a ship to a model. It shows off the "technical virtuosity" of the planners but does very little for the ship.

The vessel is shown at her worst and is structurally devalued from being a ship. Ships, especially sailing ships were meant to be seen from the side or aloft. There is no sadder sight that a vessel's bottom--it means she is helpless. She has been driven ashore or knocked down or, at best, is hove down so her bottom can be worked on.

In these situations, it is sort of like "poor old Uncle Henry who has to be kept out of the public view for his own protection." This takes no account of the needs and intentions of Uncle Henry or, in this case, Cutty Sark which should be out in the world attending to business.

There is a reason that the navies of the world used to sink their noblest vessels, saluting them as they went down. They were allowed to die with dignity rather than being broken up or being stuck in museums. They were respected rather than being fought over by bean counters.

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 09:05 AM

If you really wanted to impress you'd book the nearby Painted Hall.

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 08:16 AM

Yuck! I suppose the 'function room', would be whored/hired out at top whack to business execs wanting to impress foriegn money.

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 07:59 AM

Henryp-

How was the documentary update?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 01:55 PM

"Would the same people put the Venus de Milo on a high pedestal so they could look up her crotch?"

Yes.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 01:33 PM

I find the idea of lifting her and placing a visitor center beneath downright scary. She should be restored and maintained. There can be galleries around her. This is not a modern vessel and she does not need a crystal gallery beneath her.

Gilding the lily is fine for modern artists but she is not modern art--she is a classic piece of maritime industrial design.

Would the same people put the Venus de Milo on a high pedestal so they could look up her crotch? Her lines make her beautiful. She was meant to be viewed from her side, not her bottom.

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 08:58 AM

I've been staring at the photo that comes with the story above and wondering about the caption:

The front of the Cutty Sark is removed as part of an ongoing conservation project in Greenwhich Photo: GETTY

The view looks to me as if it's the stern of the clipper ship (I do have a photo of the stern that I shot a few years ago), not the "front" or pointy part. In the context of the story this may not be an especially important point. But I do hope when they get the ship put back together, that they get the parts fitted back into their proper places.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST,Henryp
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 07:37 AM

There's a documentary on History Channel (UK) 8pm next Tuesday 16 February.

Cutty Sark: Out of the Ashes. 'The old girl's not dead quite yet.'

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 07:28 AM

Sigh.Will pictures of this icon be only seen on Whiskey bottles?

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 08:29 PM

I was wondering if there was any update on the rebuilding project only to find this depressing article: click here for article!

Maybe something will be accomplished by the spring of 2011.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: The Walrus
Date: 27 May 07 - 09:34 PM

Liz,

I went on a 'hard-hat' tour of the early stages of the conservation some 12-18 months ago while they were running the early test work
(the assessment of the nature and extent of problems and the preparation of status reports, technique tests, treatment proposals, costings etc).
A number of the conservation techniques proposed did involve inflamable materials or gases (they alvays do), if there was vapour build up, then the problem becomes obvious.
As the conservation work requires a lot of floor area and, with the props, ladders and scaffolding in place, the floor space of the dry dock is minimal, it is not surprising, that the contents of the ship were removed as a first action and that the masts were unstepped.
I'm as cynical as anyone, but I think in this case the accident was genuine.

Walrus

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Greg B
Date: 27 May 07 - 09:22 PM

Queen Mary, late in life, had a hip replacement.

Apparently she had a new flask fitted at the same time.

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 27 May 07 - 08:32 PM

Muttley - there already WAS a public drive to raise the £25million rebuild, which last week was £7million short.

That's what makes my cynical little brain think it was an insurance job/publicity scam. Had it caught fire before the expensive and irriplaceable stuff (like the figurehead) been taken away, THAT would have been a tragedy. What was left was pfobably the stuff that was going to be replaced anyway.

LTS

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Muttley
Date: 26 May 07 - 09:39 PM

Sorry; coming in late - but reqding through 'Guitar's' first post - basically the Government won't throw a penny at a rebuild so they'll set up a "Public Drive" to raise money for a rebuild/restoration.

Figures!

As for Windsor Castle (which somebody mentioned) - I'm not a Monarchist/Royalist by any stretch of the imagination - I respect a few of them but that's it. So it's a big statement for me to remind folks that hte Queen paid for the restoration of Windsor herself. The Government informed her that Windsor was HER problem and contributed a little but the Queen was required to foot virtually ALL of the restoration costs herself as it was 'HER" castle - not the Government's. So she did. By the way, those tours you can do through Buckingham Palace while the Royal Family is in residence up at Balmoral - - - THOSE were instigated by 'Herself' to fund the Windsor Castle restoration. They've been such a success that they've continued.

Bottom line - and I am obviously NOT a bot person (despite a multi generational (Navy) connection with the sea) - It's a boat! Who cares! The main point is that no-one got hurt - if it was the "HMS Victory" THAT would be tragic.

Muttley

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 26 May 07 - 05:30 PM

And the powers to be in Liverpool don't believe in the power of shanties.
Good luck with the fundraising.

Barry

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: severed-head
Date: 26 May 07 - 04:42 PM

There will be a special fundraising night for the Cutty Sark Clipper. It takes place Tuesday 5th June at 9.00pm at The Lord Hood pub, 300 Creek Road London SE10 9SW. There's an excellent English Music Session there every Tuesday night but on 5th June it will concentrate on hornpipes and shanties.Should be a great night.
http://www.greentrad.org.uk/

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 26 May 07 - 12:26 PM

Heresy, rank heresy, insulting the Queen Mum like that! I am sure she could hold her alcohol with the best of them--especially after all those public appearances.

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 26 May 07 - 10:28 AM

Who needs the Queen Mother to help empty a bottle when there are lots of thirsty Mudcatters around?!

LTS

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 May 07 - 02:21 PM

And here's a poem I'd like to dedicate to the charred bones of the Cutty Sark but with the hope that she will rise and sail again from her ashes; it's by old sailor-poet Harry Kemp:

From CHANTEYS AND BALLADS, by Harry Kemp, published by Brentano's, New York, US, © 1920, p. 54.

The Wreck

Seared bone-white by the glare of summer weather,
Cast side-long, on the barren beach she lies,
She who once brought the earth's far ends together
And ransacked East and West for merchandise.

The sea-gulls cluster on her after-deck
Resting from the near seas that wash and fall . . .
But, I have heard, at night this side-cast wreck
(When all the belfry bells at midnight call)

Puts up sail and goes out past mortal seeing:
Once more the oceans break beneath her will
And she resumes the breath of her old being;
She lives the dreams that slumber in her still.

Thrilling as down the windy Dark she slopes,
Ecstatic, as her sails grow great with wind –
She feels the seamen walking with her ropes,
The harbour dropping like a star behind.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 May 07 - 01:44 PM

Barry-

You're correct, as usual, about the Star of India sailing. Here's what I clipped from their very well-designed website at the San Diego Maritime Museum:

Finally, in 1976, the fully restored Star of India put to sea for the first time in fifty years, under the command of Captain Carl Bowman. She sailed beautifully that day, to the applause of half a million of her fans, ashore and afloat. The Star of India now sails at least once a year making her the oldest active ship of any kind in the world. She is sailed and maintained by a volunteer crew that trains year-round, keeping not only the ship but also the skills to sail her alive.

See, these ships can still be sailed!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 May 07 - 01:38 PM

Barry-

I believe it's years since the Star of India in San Diego actually sailed, and I believe that was done by the skipper without the prior approval of the trustees. Maybe Amos knows the rest of this interesting story.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 May 07 - 01:02 PM

The museum ships the Brig Carthaginian out of Lahina, Maui & the Star of India out on the West Coast (USA) bot were restorded & sail. Even after OLd Ironside's last restoration she was put to sea under sail. I'm all for it, sign me up.

Barry

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Greg B
Date: 25 May 07 - 11:36 AM

>I'll volunteer to help empty the bottle.

That'd be the biggest piss-up in London history.

Too bad the queen mum wouldn't be around for it!

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 May 07 - 11:33 AM

Guest 11:13AM-

The Carrick has already been discussed in this thread. Some guest review a thread before posting. You might consider doing that as well.

Et al:

My apologies to Cutty Sark partisans for expanding the discussion on this thread to the policy question of whether museum ships should be sailed or not. I did not consider such discussion thread drift, and my references to other museum ships was done to provide more context for the discussion. I'll be happy if they just rebuild the Cutty Sark, mount her on a supporting stand, and encase her in glass. She's probably too large and tall to fit into a bottle but wouldn't that be lovely! I'll volunteer to help empty the bottle.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 07 - 11:13 AM

In Irvine there is a clipper called The Carrick, which the Scottish parliment hasn't given any money towards or even got a fund going, and they are going to destroy her I beleive and yet the Cutty Sark burns down and suddenly we'll be asked t ofind the money to restore her.

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 25 May 07 - 02:55 AM

I like Skipjack too.... better than I like the Cutty Sark anyhoo!

Call me an old cynic but I can hear the words 'insurance job' and 'money raiser' rattling round my head - how fortunate that anything historical, valuable and irreplaceable had already been removed.

OK, I'm sorry it burned, but no-one got hurt and there are much more important things going on in the world to throw money at.

LTS

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Greg B
Date: 24 May 07 - 06:58 PM

To lighten it up--- answer to Subject: question---

'Who's got the marshmallows?'

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 May 07 - 05:57 PM

no problem

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 24 May 07 - 05:56 PM

Apologies, Bruce - I'd missed that in your post - I didn't mean to sound picky, which I appreciate I did - I was genuinely puzzled but writing my post too quickly to phrase it carefully. Mea Culpa.

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 May 07 - 02:09 PM

I did say "slight aside- " _ I was giving an example of present efforts to keep ( some form of) ship/boat building ( wooden hulls) as an active endeavor, and the conservation efort for these particular boats. And I like skipjacks!

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 23 May 07 - 09:13 PM

Bruce, I just had the same problem. It took me 3 tries to get the previous post up. EB

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 23 May 07 - 09:12 PM

There is no question that various hull shapes have various sailing characteristics and that some of them are real dogs. Commercial sailing vessels had various needs, depending upon their trade. ALMA and her ilk were cheaply built cargo vessels who carried goods from point A to point B. Their cargoes were not perishable so there were no time limits.

If you would like to see a more typical reconstruction [not replica] of a commercial vessel, watch Picton Castle during the show "Pirate Master" on CBS. She is not especially weatherly, in the sense of going to windward. Her spars and rig are not modern or lightweight. In many ways she is an anachronism, just as Clearwater and other replicraft are. PC was adapted from a diesel vessel [trawler, I believe] and rigged from scratch into a sailing vessel. She has done at least one circumnavigation, primarily under sail and is apparently seaworthy. I had the distinct pleasure (?) of watching her during a relatively early stage in the modifications while she was at South Street. I did not believe that they would do as well as they have.

If you run into Kari Sullivan, ask her about the first year or two.

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 23 May 07 - 06:10 PM

I'm sorry, Beardedbruce but, I'm not entirely sure what your list of links to images of Chesapeake Bay skipjacks, has to do with the fire on board the Cutty Sark. I'm sue there will be a link, bit I'm just not sure what it is yet.

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 May 07 - 03:28 PM

So, what just happened to my last two posts???


I'll try to reconstruct:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skipjack_Boat

http://www.baydreaming.com/skipjacks.htm
nice photo galleries

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 May 07 - 02:59 PM

slight aside- The Maryland Maritime museum ( In St. Michaels, MD) has several skipjacks, and a few years ago was rebuilding the "Lady Katie". They had a apprentice program, with older experienced workers teaching the students about repair and construction of ( relatively small) boats.

"Lady Katie" is a typical skipjack, single masted, flat bottomed, with no engine permitted by law.

http://www.thebluecrab.com/Skipjacks/SJ-Lady_Katie.html


ALL the remaining skipjacks:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skipjack_Boat

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Greg B
Date: 23 May 07 - 02:49 PM

Ah yes, dear Alma... sailing qualities rather similar to a brownie
pan, schooner rigged. I had the fortune (or misfortune) of sailing
aboard her when she was commanded by a skipper whose experience
was primarily in racing sloops. Not a happy combination, as driving
a scow schooner hard in a short chop can 'dampen' one's spirits,
and driving a volunteer crew hard tends to make them wonder why
they should bother.

After four decades of sailing, I've found that 'work boats' of all
sizes are often more pleasant in the looking at than in the actual
sailing.

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 23 May 07 - 01:46 PM

Guest 12.36pm - Love your post. Will agree with several points:

1) You get some really lonely people that are members of Mudcat. Possibly true - and yur problem with that is?

2) Members of Mudcat are all anoraks - very probably true - to a greater or lesser degree. You don't acquire specialist knowledge in, what might be described as specialist subjects without that little name being thrown at you, from time to time.

3) Who in their might minds would argue about ships? Err - lots of people? Sailors, naval architects, maritime historians ... they are all here and they are all ... anoraks.

4) Ships don't move .... now, I confess, you have got me with that one. How do you think stuff is transported from one country to another?

Still what do I know ....

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 07 - 12:36 PM

By Christ you get wome really lonely people that are members of Mudcat, I mean who in the right mind would argue about a bloody ship, because at the end of the day that's what they just bloody ships, they don't bloody move anoracks the lot of you

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST,Chanteyranger
Date: 23 May 07 - 11:36 AM

Not that it's really important to this thread, but for the sake of accuracy on the Alma's history, I was off by one year: built in 1891, not 1890. Good point, EBarnacle, that If a historic vessel is currently sailing, you absolutely have to keep maintenance up.

Micca took me to see the Cutty Sark in '01. What a sight to behold. You can really see why clippers were known as the sleek "greyhounds of the sea."

Chanteyranger

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 23 May 07 - 11:06 AM

There is a schooner here in New Jersey, A.J. Meerwald. When she was rescued from a mudbank, she was carefully documented and dismantled. There were only two small pieces re-usable for her reassembly. She is still considered a restoration. When originally built, in the 1920's she was built of green wood and expected to survive for about 10 years in commercial use. She sails as New Jersey's official tall ship. By the way, cost of restoration with donated labor and services still came in over $1,000,000.

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: The Walrus
Date: 23 May 07 - 11:00 AM

GUEST (23 May 07 - 06:38 AM),

"...At lest the one at Irvine in Scotland is still the original unlke the cutty which isn't..."

That is until the preventative conservation team have to remove all the infested timbers (insect and fungus)which cannot be saved, and then all those timbers which are too degraded to be consolodated in place (possibly removed and conserved seperately as too structurally weak to stand up to loading by the restored structures).
Then there will be all the material added to the existing hulk (as Terribus put it "...The "Carrick" currently rotting quietly away in Irvine ..." - I doubt that she's in a particularly sound condition, let alone having masts stepped), so we can add masts and spars, rigging and fittings.

Now, you were saying about the relative 'originality' of the two ships? - If Carrick/City of Adelaide were to be restored to any accepible standard* she would be no more nor less 'original' than Cutty Sark.

W


* Cutty Sark was restored
Mary Rose was conserved
Just a quick illlustration of the difference, but restoration cannot occur without some degree of conservation (otherwise it becomes something else).

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 07 - 06:38 AM

At lest the one at Irvine in Scotland is still the original unlke the cutty which isn't.

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 May 07 - 08:35 PM

With regard to the difficulty in finding qualified crews for sailing a clipper. I don't think that's an insurmontable problem. The large four-masted barques of the 1930's grain fleets were largely manned with young apprentices with very little sea time. It's true there was a core of experienced officiers and a small number of able bodied sailors to train them. I don't think it would be that difficult to form an experienced core group, just expensive.
But if it's expensive then the organizers need to plan some way to generate income to offset expenses, seek corporate sponsorship or sell film production rights.

It may be that some sailing vessels are too precious to risk at sea but I bet the Cutty Sark would generate a lot of interest. And it would be great to see her sailing once more.

I'm less sure that I'd like to the the Charles W. Morgan sail off for a whaling voyage. I do have some scruples!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 22 May 07 - 08:22 PM

That may be why ALMA continues in relatively good condition. She is maintained in working condition.

Charley, I would love to sail a replica Hesper or Luther Little.

Having sailed on a modern square rigger, I know it does not have to be much more difficult to operate than a fore and aft vessel. Much of the "oof" of sailing replica vessels results from a deliberate effort on the part of the owners to replicate the original experience, down to the overweight spars. If Nathaniel Greene Herreschoff were designing today, his boats would have been of modern materials and would have taken advantage of technological changes. His son, LFH, was a prime example of this trend.

The sailing skills transfer from fore and aft to square rig very quickly, especially if you have made the effort to prepare for the transition.

The sea will always be dangerous. That is one of the reasons that cadets are sent out in square riggers. The ability to learn to respect the sea is much greater in a sailing vessel than in a powered vessel.

If you respect your environment, you are more likely to arrive alive than if you simply put your trust in the machinery.