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master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]

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ChrisJBrady 12 May 12 - 03:38 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 13 Jun 07 - 09:28 AM
Surreysinger 13 Jun 07 - 07:40 AM
nutty 13 Jun 07 - 05:32 AM
GUEST,Rev 12 Jun 07 - 11:46 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 12 Jun 07 - 11:12 PM
treewind 12 Jun 07 - 07:27 PM
GUEST,patronising git. 12 Jun 07 - 06:24 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 12 Jun 07 - 01:20 PM
treewind 12 Jun 07 - 01:15 PM
Anglo 12 Jun 07 - 01:07 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 12 Jun 07 - 01:03 PM
Anglo 12 Jun 07 - 12:59 PM
The Borchester Echo 12 Jun 07 - 12:36 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 12 Jun 07 - 12:27 PM
The Borchester Echo 12 Jun 07 - 11:45 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 12 Jun 07 - 10:10 AM
The Borchester Echo 12 Jun 07 - 10:02 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 12 Jun 07 - 09:24 AM
The Sandman 12 Jun 07 - 07:26 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 11 Jun 07 - 09:26 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Jun 07 - 07:55 PM
treewind 11 Jun 07 - 10:22 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 11 Jun 07 - 09:57 AM
The Borchester Echo 11 Jun 07 - 09:50 AM
The Sandman 11 Jun 07 - 09:42 AM
The Borchester Echo 11 Jun 07 - 09:41 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 11 Jun 07 - 09:33 AM
The Borchester Echo 11 Jun 07 - 08:29 AM
treewind 11 Jun 07 - 08:08 AM
GUEST,Charlie Chambers 11 Jun 07 - 07:16 AM
The Borchester Echo 11 Jun 07 - 04:11 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 10 Jun 07 - 11:22 PM
Big Mick 10 Jun 07 - 08:50 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Jun 07 - 08:35 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 10 Jun 07 - 04:08 AM
Joe Offer 10 Jun 07 - 03:33 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 10 Jun 07 - 03:18 AM
The Borchester Echo 10 Jun 07 - 03:09 AM
Joe Offer 10 Jun 07 - 03:00 AM
The Borchester Echo 10 Jun 07 - 02:50 AM
The Borchester Echo 10 Jun 07 - 02:42 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 10 Jun 07 - 02:27 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 10 Jun 07 - 02:16 AM
The Borchester Echo 09 Jun 07 - 11:29 PM
GUEST,Mr Audiophile 09 Jun 07 - 08:06 PM
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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 12 May 12 - 03:38 AM

Copyright extension: good for Cliff and the Beatles, bad for the little guys?

Bob Stanley
guardian.co.uk, Thursday 15 September 2011 22.30 BST
Comments (20)

The extension in copyright law is hailed as a victory for musicians. But while it will surely benefit Cliff, the Beatles et al, it will close doors for a lot of minor stars

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/sep/15/copyright-extension-cliffs-law-beatles

Winners and losers … Cliff Richard will benefit from his songs staying in copyright for another 20 years, but the likes of Nic Jones (right) may not. Photographs: Getty; Redferns

Champagne corks would have popped in the offices of EMI and Universal on Monday, when the EU ratified a new law – "Cliff's law", after Cliff Richard – that extended the copyright in music recordings from 50 years to 70 years. The wealth of British music from the 1960s, even now largely untapped by the major labels, will almost certainly remain in their grasp for another two decades.

Thirty years ago, the music industry complained home taping was killing music, and came up with a natty crossbones logo that scarred every album's inner sleeve for the next few years. Of course, it wasn't, and the industry was flush. Then, while milking the nascent CD market with expensive, poorly mastered reissues, the major labels splurged their huge profits on office extravagances and hugely expensive videos that, pre-YouTube, disappeared after a handful of views. Still the labels whined: "Please feel sorry for us."

Now the industry really is dying, or at least shape-shifting and shrinking. Having cried wolf once, it is hard to feel sympathetic. And so, it insisted the 50-year copyright term would have hurt the artists, not the record companies.

Paul McGuinness, manager of U2, wrote in the Daily Telegraph earlier this summer about "the systemic copyright infringement that has helped wipe out so many musicians, bands and labels in recent years". I can't think of a single artist or band who has split up or retired in protest at illegal downloading. Without changes to copyright laws, McGuinness asked: "Where is the investment going to come from to fund the next generation of bands such as U2 and Coldplay?" Fran Nevrkla, chairman of the music licensing body PPL, welcomed the EU ruling, saying the "enhanced copyright framework will enable the record companies, big and small, to continue investing in new recordings and new talent". Not everyone agreed. According to media and intellectual property lawyer Daniel Byrne, the royalty pot "will not get substantially larger", but "the available money will be split more ways (and now to more estates of deceased performers). This rewards unproductive performers and means there is less available to support younger acts."

When you hear Jools Holland claiming "artists put their hearts and souls into creating music, and it is only fair that they are recompensed in line with the rest of Europe – it's important that creators get paid for the work they do", you wonder if he has ever asked his accountant about Squeeze royalties, or never encountered a musician who has been screwed over by his label.

Maybe Jools should speak to Nic Jones. His 1980 album Penguin Eggs was voted second-best folk album of all time by listeners of Mike Harding's Radio 2 show. In 1982 Jones was almost killed in a car crash, and was so badly injured he has found it almost impossible to play the guitar or fiddle since. Income from his old albums would have been welcome but, because Jones doesn't own the recordings, he has received nothing. His first three albums were recorded for Bill Leader's Trailer label which, after it went bankrupt, was bought by a company called Celtic Music. Celtic Music's owner Dave Bulmer has sat on the entire Trailer catalogue – outside of Topic, the most significant British folk label of the 70s – with only the occasional record sneaking out. Why? He could be holding out for a folk revival during which he could sell the label on and make the proverbial killing. Whatever the reason, Jones could do with the income from reissues of his albums.

The copyright laws, as they stood, meant Jones's first two albums would have become public domain within 10 years time – at which point he could have reissued them himself. They would have belonged to the public. Instead, as part of the Trailer catalogue, they will stay in the hands of Dave Bulmer for another 30 years. It's hard to tally this with Nevrkla's claim that the change will benefit "the whole community of recording artists, orchestral players, session musicians, backing singers and other performers … which is so important, especially when those individuals reach ripe old age".

Pop stars of the late 50s and early 60s may have reached a ripe old age, but are often still in business. Take Craig Douglas, who racked up a string of top 10 hits, including a 1959 No 1, Only Sixteen. The "singing milkman" isn't used to having his hits used in car adverts or even getting much airplay, aside from the odd track on Radio 2's Sounds of the 60s. Instead, he is reliant on playing shows to people who were there at the time and remember the likes of Pretty Blue Eyes. As the copyright laws stood, Douglas would have been able to press CDs of his own hits and sell them at his shows without having to go through EMI, the record company that has owned them since they were recorded. If he only sold 10 a night, that could be £100 in his pocket. Compare that to the figures estimated by a group of economists, intellectual property experts and music academics who studied the effects of copyright term extension: "Consolidating the figures published in the annual reports of various collecting societies, our best estimate is that for the typical performing artist, the annual payout is in the lower hundreds of pounds and will not increase from extension … £250 a year is not a pension."

What really set the industry lobbying for term extensions was not the desire to do right by Craig Douglas or Nic Jones. It was the realisation that the single biggest revenue generator in British pop – the Beatles' catalogue – was about to start falling out of copyright. The EU ruling has been labelled "Cliff's law", but Paul McCartney pushed just as hard for it.

Of course, you can see Cliff and Macca's point – who would want to see their precious work repackaged cheaply and shoddily by fly-by-night companies? But the flipside of the public domain argument is that genuine enthusiasts can use out-of-copyright material to make extraordinary new compilations to the benefit of the listening public. One of the most exciting series of the last few years has been the British Hit Parade, an annual roundup of every single to make the UK charts since they began in 1952. Like BBC4's Top of the Pops reruns, this is history played back in real time; you can appreciate the true impact of Heartbreak Hotel as a new entry in 1956, sandwiched between Frankie Laine's Hell Hath No Fury and Don Robertson's The Happy Whistler. Given this context, it's much easier to understand why people really did think Little Richard sounded like an alien. Odd, forgotten crazes become apparent – not only things like the mambo (1954) or songs about babies (1953), but a string of cowboy hits in 1955, predating the UK's taste for something equally American but a little more visceral. Was 1960 really pop's worst-ever year, worse even than 1976? You can listen to the 12-disc 1960 British Hit Parade and decide for yourself. (Answer: yes it was.)

Expiring copyrights have also led to "lost" recordings being dug up by musical archeologists such as Jonny Trunk. Kenny Graham's Moondog and Suncat Suite was a 1958 tribute to the New York street musician Moondog, played by Graham, a British jazzer, and engineered by Joe Meek. It's other-worldly, quite beautiful and, in its initial vinyl pressing, extremely rare. "It's good for the whole industry, it's good for the economy to make it public and make it all available," Trunk says. "Half the time the majors don't want to release this stuff. The Kenny Graham album became public domain; no one released it. I did, then it gets on TV in an ad for Terry's Chocolate Orange – if I hadn't issued it, it would have remained hidden. Now with the money from the ad, Graham's daughter has the opportunity to leave work and become a gardener." MGM, Graham's original label, had the album in its possession for half a century and did nothing with it.

The real money for musicians remains, as ever, in publishing; you write the songs, you get paid whenever your song is played in public, and the copyright for composers already lasts for their lifetime and then 70 years. When Jonny Trunk got into a conversation with Noel Gallagher about copyright laws recently, the writer of Wonderwall said he "didn't give a shit" about his recordings becoming public domain. "He knows it's about publishing," says Trunk. "The money isn't in making new Beatles albums. That's over."

Unlike Paul McCartney, Cliff Richard only ever wrote the odd song, and none of his A-sides; he would never make a living from publishing, so it's easier to understand his grievances with copyright term. However, the EU ruling doesn't attempt to solve the biggest problem for older performers: they are dependent on the terms of their recording contracts, drawn up years ago by record companies. Cliff, in a position of strength, will have renegotiated his deal with EMI many times over the years. Craig Douglas, in a position of weakness, almost certainly won't.

The pioneering work in high-end reissues of public domain recordings will now be stemmed, along with the petrol-station cheapies. The recordings they have salvaged will no longer belong to the public. Craig Douglas and the other minor stars of the 60s won't get the chance to reissue their own recordings and make money for themselves. That sounds like copyright theft to me.

Public domain: Three great albums that depended on the lack of copyright

Round the Town: Following Grandfather's Footsteps – A Night at the London Music Hall (Bear Family, 2000)

A definitive four disc box with a hardback book that states a case for music hall as Britain's equivalent of the blues. Some of it is mawkish, some very funny (Sam Mayo's Things Are Worse in Russia), some quite filthy (May Moore Duprez's Won't You Come Dear Into the Park?) but it is compiled from such a wide array of labels, many long defunct, that to license every track individually would have been almost impossible. With public domain recordings, the story can be told.

The First British Hit Parade (Acrobat, 2003)

More a social history document than a CD. Al Martino's Here In My Heart is widely known as the first No 1, but who was at No 2 that week in 1952? It was Jo Stafford's sensual and exotic You Belong To Me. In fact, Al's Neapolitan ballad is possibly the worst song in this whole chart, made up of just 15 songs. There's wild west drama from Frankie Laine (High Noon), a melty Rosemary Clooney ballad (Half As Much), and even a revival for Vera Lynn, cheering on our boys in Korea with the rather sweet Forget Me Not. Just four years later, pop had changed completely.

We're Gonna Rock, We're Gonna Roll (Proper, 2005)

The roots of modern pop over a four-disc set. Many historians still hail Ike Turner and Jackie Brenston's Rocket 88 as the first rock'n'roll record, but here are dozens of other postwar claimants, divided into hillbilly bop, blues and doo wop, with a chronological fourth disc of tracks that blend all three, peaking with Elvis's That's All Right Mama and Bill Haley's Rock Around the Clock in 1954. The title is taken from a prophetic and rumbustious 1947 Wild Bill Moore recording. I'll give him the gold medal.

• This article was amended on 19 September 2011 to make clear that the copyright on compositions lasts for the composer's lifetime and then another 70 years.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 09:28 AM

Hi Nutty, thanks for the link. Unfortunately, it did not appear to be a very good scan and I found it very hard to read.   I'm not a big fan of online scans, they seldom are clear enough to be legible, and they rarely fit the screen. As much as the technology attempts to replace books, they still haven't figure out a way to do it. The devices are too cumbersome and require interaction that makes reading difficult.

Well, I guess there is something about having instant access to such works.    I'll still hold out for the day I can purchase a hard copy and not have to take out a second mortgage to do so.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: Surreysinger
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 07:40 AM

Ron - "nicked" means the same over here as it does over there. However, there are shades of difference in the actual use of the word. "He nicked the goods when she wasn't looking" would definitely be an act of theft... "Can I nick the words from you?" would be a request to be given the words ... so context is all!


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: nutty
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 05:32 AM

Pills to Purge Melancholy can be found here .... with no charge

CLICK


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Rev
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:46 PM

D'Urfey's "Wit and Mirth, or, Pills to Purge Melancholy" is also available in pdf format from EEBO (Early English Books Online). It is a subscription service, but most university libraries, and many public libraries have subscriptions.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:12 PM

No, it is not illegal to copy text from the library. I was merely pointing out the difference in language - what "nicked" means in the U.S. is different from what Diane mentioned (I assume). The libary is a great resource and should be used for that - it is a way of keeping the heritage available to everyone.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: treewind
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 07:27 PM

Only copying the texts from the web site!
(well, I don't know what the other folks are doing, that's their business)
As we're not distributing copies, just using the words, I don't think anything illegal is going on here at any rate.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,patronising git.
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 06:24 PM

You learn a lot from this site! News to me that theft from libraries is a noble endeavour.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 01:20 PM

"Nicking" here means a five-finger discount - stealing.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: treewind
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 01:15 PM

Mary's always nicking stuff from the Bod!
(the broadside texts)
If it means turning a tune and title and maybe a couple of lines collected by RVW in Cambridge (bless'im!) into a fully performable song it's definitely OK according to some system of morality!

As Diane says, it's not much use stuck in a library.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: Anglo
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 01:07 PM

Oops, sorry about that blank post above. What I was going to say was, the book Diane linked to is a recent musicological study, rather than a copy of the original Pills. There are reprints of that available, however, one that I know of from the Higginson Book Company in Salem, MA, which goes for about $250 US. Three large volumes, hardbound, being a facsimile of the 1876 reprint.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 01:03 PM

nuff said


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: Anglo
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:59 PM


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:36 PM

Oh yes.
A song's not a lot of use stuck in an Oxford library.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:27 PM

Thanks Diane! That did not come up in my search yesterday.

"nicking stuff"???   Does that fit under "morality is right"???    :)


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:45 AM

The South American River seems to have Pills To Purge Melancholy at slightly under $100.

That's a lot cheaper than an air ticket and nicking stuff surreptitiously from the Bod (as I did).


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 10:10 AM

Good points Diane, and I wish it would happen. I'm more pessimistic about the world these days, but I hope change can occur - I just think it will take a bit longer.

The problem with morality is that it becomes open to interpretation. Individuals have different value systems. Ignorance is not sin, it is a symptom.    Keep up the fight.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 10:02 AM

That change can't happen overnight.

It could. It would take one person to see things differently (and more logically and more, even, to his own advantage).

I tend to back Leon Rosselson's view :

That's not the way it's got to be

over John Tams:

Nothing changes it all stays the same.

Because the law isn't justice but morality is right and the biggest, indeed the only, sin is ignorance.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 09:24 AM

"there is the right to have ones artistic creative work,available to the public"

That is the problem with the entire arguement. When you say it is the "right" to have the work available, you are speaking from a moral point of view and not a legal one. It would be wonderful if the world worked that way.   That change can't happen overnight.

At the recent Mystic Sea Music Festival there was a symposium, and one of the papers presented was about the works of Thomad D'Urfey. It caught my attention and I decided to see if the collection "Wit and Mirth, Pills to Purge Melancholy" was available in print. I could not find any publisher that has it available, and the copies I found were selling for over $1000.   While D'Urfey would not benefit from it, it would be wonderful to have his artistic creative work available to the public.

No, we can't recreate what we once were - but a song is not a museum piece.

As Satchel Paige said, "don't look back, the past may be gaining on you".

Keep the hope alive, I wish you luck in getting the rights to your work back.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 07:26 AM

as you say there is more than money at stake,there is the right to have ones artistic creative work,available to the public, so that the work can be appeciated,it is all very well to talk about re recording[but why should we have to],also it will never be possible to recreate how we were then.[the musical empathy that was created at that point in time],voices change etc, can never be reproduced.
I see someone is trying to sell[Vinyl] Cheating The Tide, on ebay for 51 euros,what a funny old world .Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:26 PM

Steve. You are not being picky. I would buy a copy of a Nic Jones CD-R from YOU.   I wish you could get your want list without having to pay an arm and a leg.   Please tell me where I can purchase Ramblin' Jack's Monitor LP's where the royalties go to him. I would love to have a CD copy of Ed McCurdy's "Blood Booze and Bones". Where are Cynthia Gooding's recordings? In his later years, Dave Van Ronk probably could have used some of the royalties for recordings he made. I'm sure Mark Spoelstra would have liked to see some royalties from his LP's.

Yes, I would also hope that those royalties would pay for health care, put food on the table and put kids through college. Most folksingers and singer-songwriters that I know struggle to get gas money selling their current CD's.   I would hope you are all correct, but I would not count on those royalties from older LP's to be a goldmine. If there was money to be made, I think this snake that you mention would have found a way. Still, I do agree - it is more than money at stake here.

I want my heritage back too - at prices I can afford. If only life worked that way.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 07:55 PM

Ron. Call me Mr Picky but I do not wish to enjoy my heritage having spent an arm and a leg battling with other eBayers over a scratched and over-priced ancient vinyl album. Please tell me where I can buy a brand new vinyl album of Noah's Ark Trap for the proper price with royalties to Nic Jones and I'll snap it up. I might even make hundreds of CD-Rs from it, sell 'em to all my mates for a tenner a time and send Nic a fiver for every copy I sell. Hey, there's a notion! JOKE, MR B, JOKE!!


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: treewind
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 10:22 AM

Very difficult to draw any conclusions from anecdotal evidence of what the PRS paid you for different performances/airtime. We've seen three playings (different tracks at different times) on the same radio programme give wildly different payouts. Aoth trad/arr. Same with performances of same song at different live events like festivals. There's no apparent logic to it.

It might seem unfair that you get full royalties on trad as you would if you wrote it yourself, but the downside of singing trad songs is that it's very unlikely that anyone else's performance of the same song will get you anything. (not impossible, if another performer is generous enough to acknowledge your contribution to the version/arrangement they sing)

But we digress...
The point is that re-release and sales of the albums locked up in CM's legal title would, in many cases, result in royalty payments to the artists.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:57 AM

"He got two years hard labour in Reading Gaol then died in poverty, exiled in France aged 46.
Do punishments always fit crimes? "

In retrospect, no. Burning witches seems sort of harsh looking back on it too.

Still, Wilde did get paid for his plays and novels at the time they were written - and they outlived old Oscar.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:50 AM

Dick, I based it on what the PRS said about The White Hare controversy.
As no-one (including the liner notes and the Folk Awards panel) can make up their minds whether that is 'self-composed' or Trad/Arr, I may have been given the wrong answer.

OTOH, are you the sole owner of the publishing rights for each composition?


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:42 AM

Diane, unless the law has changed recently.royalties are more for self composed peices,than trad arr,
I have had MY music played on BBC radio 2,several times in the past and I got more for my own compositions,than for TRAD ARR.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:41 AM

Did Oscar get paid for writing?

He got two years hard labour in Reading Gaol then died in poverty, exiled in France aged 46.
Do punishments always fit crimes?


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:33 AM

"You know what Oscar Wilde said about someone who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing?
Or is literature too something you just buy in a bookshop? "

Did Oscar get paid for writing?   

He also once said "One should always play fairly when one has the winning cards. "   Seems like Mr. Bulmer isn't showing his hand.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 08:29 AM

Astonishingly, someone on the point of releasing a CD recently thought the MCPS/PRS registration fee was some sort of iniquitous tax to rip off poor, hard-done by musicians.

On the contrary, these organisations have an interest in performers in that they comprise part of the membership and they exist to protect the interests of all members and to collect and distribute royalties for them.

Another myth doing the rounds is that the royalties from a self-composed piece is greater than a Trad/Arr. It isn't. It's the same.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: treewind
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 08:08 AM

They also represent arrangers, and in particular PRS explicitly cover performances of traditional songs by an artist who has joined the PRS and registered their own arrangements of those songs.

The do pay up too. Take it from one who knows ;-)

Anahata


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Charlie Chambers
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 07:16 AM

A previous post suggested that artists receive payments from PRS (live performance, radio, TV, etc)and MCPS (recordings). These organisations only represent composers and songwriters and like most record companies, have no interest in performers once they've served their purpose.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 04:11 AM

Money talks

It doesn't talk, it swears, according to Dylan.
NOT that it is about money.
You know what Oscar Wilde said about someone who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing?
Or is literature too something you just buy in a bookshop?


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 11:22 PM

" There must be hundreds of people like me who didn't grow up with it but who now realise that this is our heritage. "

You have your heritage, you just need to search a little harder for it.   Ebay, used record shops, auctions, etc.   The LP's were not destroyed, they are just out of print. There are hundreds of recordings, books and movies that I would love to see again that just aren't available.

Sure, it would be fantastic to have pristine CD's available (if the master tapes really exist), but the "heritage" arguement won't get much support.

Bulmer appears to be a first class prick based on the reports I'm hearing, but you aren't going to see the recordings without help.

Why has Bulmer chosen to release some material and not others? Is he asking too much for Jones? Does he have an ax to grind? I know everyone wants to dismiss this story, but there has to be a reason why he is witholding this if the interest is truly as big as it seems.   Money talks.   I know these questions have been asked a million times, but no one can seem to give a logical answer - and I guess Bulmer isn't talking. A real tragedy, but the recordings are out there.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 08:50 PM

Steve, that is the best post on the subject so far.

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 08:35 PM

ME: I don't want to hear re-recorded versions of wonderful original albums. I want to hear the originals, on CD with the best quality sound that can be applied to them. I want to know that the artist is getting his/her proper recompense.   But above all I want my heritage back.

JOE: OK, so that's part of the argument. You want to hear music you grew up with.

I didn't grow up with it. My greatest love is traditional Irish music but I didn't hear anything by Planxty until 1990 when I was 40. I didn't hear Nic Jones until the re-release of Penguin Eggs in the 90s - I bought the CD after reading a Colin Irwin review in Folk Roots as it was then. I now have all the recent Nic Jones live recordings and I have a crappy old pirated cassette (from ancient vinyl albums, not Bulmer CD-Rs!) of Ballads and Songs and Noah's Ark Trap. There must be hundreds of people like me who didn't grow up with it but who now realise that this is our heritage. It is incredibly precious, and for someone to sit on it and deprive us all from possessing it is no less wrong than would be the closing down of Stonehenge or a mighty cathedral. That, and the refusal to allow Nic Jones to make at least a bit of a living from his wonderful work, is what this is all about.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 04:08 AM

Joe.
Greatful thanks for the links....you bugger!!!LOL!
Blimey, have got a lot of catching up to do.
Ah Well, nothing else to do today!
Ralph


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Subject: Elektra Records Reissues
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 03:33 AM

All the major labels in the U.S. had folk musicians in the 50's and 60's, but I think Elektra may have had the most significant collection of commercial folk recordings - as opposed to the more traditional music on the Folkways label, which really didn't make much money. This Elektra Discography (click) covers the period when the legendary Jac Holzman ran the label, from 1950 to about mid-1973. The Wikipedia entry on Elektra is worthwhile reading.

The Judy Collins Elektra recordings were reissued by Warner Brothers early on, but most of the folk catalog was left in the vaults. Within the last five years, some of the Elektra albums have been released on the Collectors' Choice label, and some on the Warner Brothers Rhino and Rhino Handmade labels. The Rhino Handmade reissues have been very nice productions, including a 37-cut CD by Jean Ritchie, 28 cuts from Ed McCurdy called When Dalliance Was in Flower and maidens lost their heads, and a nice collection of Yiddish songs by Theodore Bikel - all beautifully packaged and annotated, with quality remastering.

But still, there's lots of Elektra that hasn't been reissued. It's disappointing - but I'm not all that sure it's unfair. Now, I will say that there is no question about the Warner Brothers ownership of these Elektra recordings. Apparently there is a question about the legitimacy of Dave Bulmer's ownership of the recordings he's holding on to - but I don't really understand that issue, and it has been clouded by an inundation of verbiage here at Mudcat.

And Diane is right that many of the early Elektra reissues had terrible mastering - they sounded like they have been mastered onto a cassette deck from an LP, and then put on CD. The more recent ones range from very good (Collectors' Choice) to extraordinary (Rhino Handmade).

Now there's one Elektra recording I'd really love to have - the one by Sandy Paton - but Sandy doesn't like that album and hopes it never again sees the light of day. I begged Sandy, but begging doesn't work with him. Now, if anybody should happen to want to send a bootleg copy my way....

-Joe-

I'm very familiar with Topic, Diane, and very pleased with the Topic reissues I've bought, especially with the 20-CD Voice of the People series, the Watersons box set, and The Acoustic Folk Box. My database says I have 35 Topic recordings, but that's counting Voice of the People as one recording.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 03:18 AM

Joe
Bugger
Didn't realise 100 was getting imminent!
R


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 03:09 AM

I'll take that to mean you know no more about Elektra than I do and care nothing about Topic (where Bill Leader was a sound engineer after running Collets and before setting up his own company).


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 03:00 AM

Sometimes, the best thing you can say in response is

100!


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 02:50 AM

Topic was founded originally by the Workers' Music Association and its director before Tony Engle till his death in the mid 70s was Gerry Sharp, a powerful mentor both musically and in the Hampstead Communist Party.

Just in case anybody wanted to know where I get it all from.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 02:42 AM

Elektra is nowadays part of the Warner Group.
Re-releases of, for example, Incredible String Band material is the worst, technically, that I have ever heard, quite on a par with a CM CD-R.
Nowhere on the packaging does it mention remastering so I assume they didn't bother with such niceties.
Having just received a lengthy email from Joe Boyd about the Syd Barrett tribute, I think I'll ask him what consultation, if any, took place.
All tracks are licensed by GEMA, it says.

(Playing Wistman's Wood so marginally less angry).


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 02:27 AM

Hi Ron.
I've no idea if Topic have recouped the advance to Nic for Game, Set, Match.
But knowing Tony Engle quite well, I'm pretty sure he doesn't care one way or the other!!
Play it lots on your radio show, increase interest in Nic in the US, boost sales through CAMSCO (or whoever).
And maybe TOPIC will get its money back.
After all, it was TOPIC who believed in the "Songs of the People" 24 CD set. Hardly going to get to the top of the charts, but a worthy, and fascinating project true to the companies original very left wing beliefs.
More power to them.
Kind !!! Regards
Ralphie
Must have that beer sometime!


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 02:16 AM

Hi Joe.

I admit to knowing very little about the Elektra label, or the company, so, could you tell me more.

1. Is Elektra still in existence as a label? If not, and has ceased to be (as Monty Python might put it!), do you know who bought them out?
2. Are the artists who recorded on Elektra still around today? (hopefully so), and if they are, would they like to see their early work available?
3. Would these artists wish to buy back all the rights to the original recordings, including publishing, etc, etc, with a view to putting them out themslves, even if it would make little commercial sense? (for old times sake)
4. If so, would the present owners of the Elektra catalogue be willing to discuss a deal with said artists to both sides mutual satisfaction?

I've said it before, but it bears repeating.
After the demise of Dingles records here in the UK, I was contacted by the ex MD of the company, and after a bit of a chat, managed to buy back the rights to my first recording. (Master tapes, Multitrack, All legal rights etc, etc).

The LP was recorded in 1980,I bought the stuff about ten years ago, and as yet, haven't done anything with them (complete tardiness on my part, I'm afraid!!)

The point being, that at least I could if I wanted to, and out of common human decency, if it became a million seller (I wish!!), I would be only too happy to include Roger (Dingles supremo) in a cut of the profits for believing in the band at the outset, and paying the initial recording costs. (I don't think he's holding his breath!!!!)

In other words, an amicable agreement was made.
Could the Elektra artists acheive this if they wanted too?

As far as the Bulmer saga is concerned, there are quite a few artists over here in the UK, who would be only too happy to pay hard cash for their early works, but negotiation....zilch.

The fact that all of these threads have been resurfacing over the years, is to let Mr Bulmer know that he hasn't been forgotten.

The (in his case) unwanted publicity, has at least prevented him from putting out anymore short runs of CDs which benefit the artists not one jot.

I hope this posting doesn't sound too angry.
(oh, and Joe, I'd really like to know about the Elektra story)

Regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 11:29 PM

Ralph said: I'm rapidly beginning to think that nobody reads what is written here.

At 06.44 on 5 June I wrote: The artists signed a contract standard at the time which didn't (as now) contain a clause by which publishing rights reverted to them if the company was wound up

and a while later, in response to an idiotic challenge to call CM's bluff to release the material: Because as things stand, he is the only one with the legal right to do this. What you are suggesting is piracy. I then clarified the difference between recording and publishing copyright.

At 10.55 on 8 June I wrote: Performing royalties are collected centrally by the PRS and distributed to artists direct in respect of airplay and performance returns. Receipt of cheques in respect of this are usually the first an artist knows of the release of a CD-R of their previously hidden work. I have mentioned this, many times, in previous threads. CM could not withhold these royalties even if they wanted to. Mechanicals are an entirely different matter. A producer proposing to issue (or re-issue) a recording is supposed to obtain a licence from the MCPS and an above-board pressing plant will insist on this before doing the run. Thus the artist will receive royalties according to retail sales. If the release is on CD-R there is clearly no check on sales, though a producer ought in theory, make annual returns to the MCPS. That covers performance and sales.

Seems perfectly clear to me. What's misleading? It's the bleedin' obvious, actually. I wrote all that without a shred of anger for those who can't be arsed to look up a few simple facts themselves, without which they remain in the dark over this issue and spout rubbish.

Ralph went on to explain the Topic advance which vindicated the viability of re-release and how the publishing rights are the main money earner, two different but very important aspects which complete the picture (if you've been following so far).

Clearly not. What we get now is a trivialisation of the Leader/Trailer catalogue and a fatuous comparison with Elektra who can do just one thing better than anybody else: compression.

Still angry. Very.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Mr Audiophile
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 08:06 PM

well.. ermmm..

Elektra may have carefully conservered the origional
multi-track and master tapes,
so that, eventually, it might still be possible
to listen to their CD releases in best available source quality
Hi Fi audio.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 08:00 PM

OK, so that's part of the argument. You want to hear music you grew up with. I feel the same thing about many of the old Elektra folk albums that aren't available just now. They're not being released on CD as quickly as I'd like to see them. I suppose somebody is waiting to release these albums when they think they can make money on them. I have to wait, stuck with only some 5,000 CD's in my collection.
What's the difference between Elektra and Bulmer?
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 07:19 PM

I don't want to hear re-recorded versions of wonderful original albums. I want to hear the originals, on CD with the best quality sound that can be applied to them. I want to know that the artist is getting his/her proper recompense.   But above all I want my heritage back. So I want to hear, on CD, Ballads and Songs, Noah's Ark Trap and all the rest in glorious 21st Century sound.   Quite a simple request really.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 07:06 PM

Oh, I have no doubt about the existence of the anger - and I tend to think that it is justified. However, angry people who can't express anything but anger, end up sounding foolish - whether their cause is worthy or not.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 06:50 PM

It is important that this matter,is kept in the forefront of peoples minds,anyone that can attempt to serve topic with an injunction,to prevent Nic Jones from producing a cd,has behaved without moral consideration,.
Humanity is more important,than anything else,.,More important than legal niceties,it is what is supposed to seperate us from the animal kingdom.
if we all adopt the Thatcherite mentality of looking after number one regardless of that effect on society,I am afraid civilisations days are numbered.
Joe Offer,there are alot of very angry people right throughout and to the top of the uk folk scene,,they are very angry about The behaviour of Celtic music.
Iam very pleased that the right thing has been done for MickTems,but this is a drop inthe ocean, as D Easby pointed out his[Celtic M] biggest money maker must be the Sick Note.,
Some men rob you with a shotgun others with a fountain pen,but i,ve never seen an outlaw turn a poor man from his home.
embezzlement is something that lawyers get struck off for, even lawyers have moral codes.


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