CDs and CD-Rs

Subject: CDs and CD-Rs
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 10:32 PM

There have been a number of postings recently suggesting that the sound of a CD-R is somehow inferior to that of a "proper" pressed CD. Flatly not true. Sound quality is identical.
    CD-Rs developed a bad reputation because there have been reports of poor longevity.I haven't seen any recent reports of this, though that doesn't mean there haven't been any. On t'other hand I own, and frequently play CD-Rs dating back a half-dozen years. No problems.

Subject: RE: CDs and CD-Rs
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 10:43 PM

just being objective..

i'm one of the suckers that purchased 'Bright Phoebus' off amazon last week or so.

and it definitely looks like a factory pressed silver disc CD to me..



but the higher dynamic peaks distort badly..

especially on the vocals

seems to me like a very amateur poorly mastered vinyll to digital transfer...



and if i'm correct in my suspicions..


any undergrad music technology student could have made a much beter job of it

Subject: RE: CDs and CD-Rs
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 10:54 PM

..and thats any any half way intelligent student with access to a
qood quality turntable equipped an audiophile cartridge and a clean stylus..

and a halfway decent semi pro PC soundcard..

Subject: RE: CDs and CD-Rs
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 10:58 PM

okay - what's a CD-R?

Subject: RE: CDs and CD-Rs
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 10:58 PM

Dick - the formats from six/ten years ago for CD (forget CD-R - higher price useless unstable medium)...have evolved into a new medium (double and far beyond)Visual is expected with audio.

The Mossberg column of the Wall Street Journal will get you up to half-speed....but you need NYTimes, FT, IT, and "a bot" to Intel, Microsoft, Apple, and AMD....with an "audio filter/search" to keep up to date. They are lots of much more fun places that exploit the previous corporate vulnerabilities.

I may miss six weeks...and then spend six months "catching up."

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: CDs and CD-Rs
From: Anglo
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 11:05 PM

I'm with Dick on this one.

Here in the US many small companies do short-runs of CDs on CD-R. The sound quality is identical. I've done it myself, and all of us who do so will guarantee the CD-R for life (that's your life, not the CD-R's :-) If it fails, send it back for replacement. I've nevver had one returned. I've had the occasional bad pressing of "real" CDs, occasionally even a CD with the wrong music - God knows how _that_ got there), but no failed CD-Rs.

I'm sorry Mr Bulmer shows so little respect for the music he owns that he has to do a poor LP transfer. But if he'd taken that same master and had a thousand CDs pressed, they would have sounded the same.

Subject: RE: CDs and CD-Rs
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 01:32 AM

A CD-R is a CD onto which one can record. (Compact Disk-Recordable.)

Subject: RE: CDs and CD-Rs
From: Anglo
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 01:38 AM

I was interrupted in the middle of writing my comment above, so it was finally posted before I'd seen the last few contributions.

In a non-technical nutshell, a CD-R is a Recordable (burnable) CD disc, like the kind you would burn on your computer. This is as opposed to a pressed CD, which is the way large-scale commercial recordings are made.

Would someone like to translate Gargoyle's post?

Subject: RE: CDs and CD-Rs
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 02:00 AM

One point bears making.

I have never come across an undamaged 'pressed' CD that would not play in a normal audio CD player, whether as part of a hifi setup or as a computer component. I do, however, have a number of CDRs (from a reputable small label) that will only play successfully in one player out of four (and that in a computer).

It's not so much an issue of inherent sound quality as of compatibility and construction, I suspect.

Subject: RE: CDs and CD-Rs
From: treewind
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 03:40 AM

Re: Gargoyle - I think he's side-stepping the original question and saying the CD format is obsolescent and being replaced by higher density formats like DVD (including video) SA-CD, DSD etc.

For all the new developments, the original CD-Audio standard hasn't changed and is what you get when you buy a music CD to play in a regular CD player.

Re Malcolm's compatibility issue: several reasons:
- Some older CD players won't play CDR's reliably because they weren't designed to do that (the contrast ratio of CDR's is lower)
- Old CDR blanks weren't so well made. New ones are more reliable
- CDRs deteriorate with age. Again older types may be worse in that respect.
- Some brands of CDR blanks are still better than others, and some CD burners are better than others

All of this has nothing to do with sound quality. A CD either plays perfectly, or it skips and stutters (or in bad cases doesn't play at all).
There's a very borderline case where errors are too bad to be correctable but not so bad as to cause the player to mute or stop altogether, where the player will attempt to interpolate and you'll get inferior sound, but I don't believe that happens much on any CD that's good enough to play without skipping.

Anahata

Subject: RE: CDs and CD-Rs
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 04:10 AM

And some CR-Rs wontplay on certain machines if they haven't been 'Finalised'. This is the step which tells the CD-R that it is not going to have any more additions made to it, and can consider itself as a standard, recorded, CD. Until this step some machines, incapable of recording, are incapable of playing an un-finalised CD-R

(IIRC) CHEERS
Nigel

Subject: RE: CDs and CD-Rs
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 04:12 AM

I have a jolly time downloading stuff and burning my own CDRs only to find I do not actually have a way of finalizing them, so I can only play them on this computer - neither the CD player nor the laptop will accept them. Anyone able to help a luddite out?

LTS

Subject: RE: CDs and CD-Rs
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 04:20 AM

Reputable CD manufacturers demand that all the music on the said article has been 'documented, properly itemised and all 'dues' paid…
They usually have such as this in their terms and conditions…

'All contracts are subject to the Company receiving any necessary license to purchase, process or use the required materials
and / or to manufacture the products'

They won't make 'proper' CDs without clearance then?

The MCPS/PRS have similar terminology on their blurb…..

'If you don't obtain clearance for your use of copyright music, you could face legal action for copyright infringement
and may become liable to pay damages and costs.'

But anyone can produce a CD-R themselves (at home, in any quantity they can be bothered with) and avoid such legalities and any subsequent payments. No?

Subject: RE: CDs and CD-Rs
From: lilly
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 04:59 AM

re hipflaskandy's last comment.
I'm almost ready to have our band's recording copied/pressed. I wanted to have a pro job done but, as you say, I came up against this mcps legislation!! Why should I have to pay someone else a fee for music that is mine 100% ?! just to get it copied. We are now thinking of doing it ourselves! Another case of musicians being ripped off ?
This thread been very helpful, thanks all.

Subject: RE: CDs and CD-Rs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 05:12 AM

Registering your music with the MCPS ensures that you receive the mechanical rights due for every copy sold.
You do the sums and consider whether a one-off registration fee is worth it.
If you are thinking of going platinum, I'd say it was.

Subject: RE: CDs and CD-Rs
From: treewind
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 05:16 AM

MCPS does not rip off musicians - it's there to protect musicians from being ripped off.

Go ahead and make you home made CDs, but if a film or TV company decides a track of your recording is just right for some project that they're doing that subsequently makes them millions, don't come running home crying home because you didn't get a slice of the action.

Duncan/HFA:
But anyone can produce a CD-R themselves (at home, in any quantity they can be bothered with) and avoid such legalities and any subsequent payments. No?

Can physically, but if the material is someone else's copyright you're still breaking the law. I'm not sure what your point is actually as you seem to be arguing with yourself.

Anahata

Subject: RE: CDs and CD-Rs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 05:24 AM

Yes, and I meant to add to lilly, what are you going to do if a million people want to cover your compositions?
Of course, you can't stop them even if you wanted to, but the PRS/MCPS is there to collect the rights due for you from their recordings/performances.

Subject: RE: CDs and CD-Rs
From: Darowyn
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 05:25 AM

Lilly,
What you are paying for is registration of your CD. A reputable pressing plant will not just reproduce any CD sent to them for fear of prosecution for piracy. Otherwise you could roll up at the plant with your brand new Justin Timberlake CD, run off a couple of thousand, and set up a market stall.
If you are selling enough to warrant a pressed, glass master CD, you must have enough profit in view to cover the registration.
You'll find that radio stations are very reluctant to play unregistered tracks too- and BBC radio pays royalties by the minute in the UK.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: CDs and CD-Rs
From: oldhippie
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 08:26 AM

I have not had any problem burning CD-Rs on the computer, then playing them on any CD player. But, I always buy CD-Rs labled as being for music. Don't know if that makes a difference. I've burned CDs for friends, and no one has ever told me they can't play them on any machine. I'm wondering if the "finalizing" is built into the CD burner when you click "done".

Subject: RE: CDs and CD-Rs
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 09:05 AM

(Peace and Anglo: Thanks for the explanations!)

Subject: RE: CDs and CD-Rs
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 11:45 AM

I started this posting solely to clear up some misapprehensions. I should point out that a lousy remastering job will sound just as lousy on a pressed CD as on a CD-R. \
    I do know that short run commercial CD-Rs have been a real blessing
to those of us who love traditional music--there's just not enough sales volume to justify normal production of a good deal of the recordings that are now available.

Subject: RE: CDs and CD-Rs
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 11:54 AM

"CDRs deteriorate with age."

I've been using Verbatim brand CD-R's to record my vinyl LP's onto. They claim to have an archival life span of up to 100 years. They also meet Orange Book II standards (whatever that is). I get them on sale for 20$ CDN for 50. If they fail at 99 years I will demand a refund.

Subject: RE: CDs and CD-Rs
From: GUEST,Ravenheart
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 02:24 PM

Some players may have more difficulty with CD-Rs, depending on the exact kind of CD-R, the speed at which it was recorded, and more.

As a music programmer, I find it disconcerting for something to play perfectly at home and then, on the air in mid-set, to halt or start producing a lot of aberrations. This seems to be a lot more likely to happen with CD-Rs.

Sometimes I can rip an iffy CD at home, rerecord it at 12X speed, and have better luck than with the original.

Aren't CD-Rs supposed to be more sensitive to exposure to sunlight than burned CDs?