Folk music teachers?

Subject: Folk music teachers?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 04:31 AM

My daughter is currently hating doing the flute - she used to get quite a lot of enjoyment from it, but the joy of playing has gone since she got a new teacher at the beginning of the year. I agree with her: he's horrid. Very critical, not supportive or encouraging, and says that the only serious music is classical.

I'm not really bothered about her doing grades; I just want her to be enjoying playing. She also feels intimidated when there are workshops at festivals because she's learned to read dots, not play by ear.

So my question is: is there a network of instrumental tutors who teach with a folk approach? I know lots of people who teach in a short-term, project-based way, and I know most of them give lessons, but none of them live near me (Grantham way). I'd like her to be doing some aural learning as well as reading music, and I'd prefer a more relaxed approach that lets her go at her own pace rather than hot-housing to get through exams.

Any contacts gratefully accepted.

Subject: RE: Folk music teachers?
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 04:50 AM

Not a contact but a thought - is there a local Morris team that might welcome her as a musician? I play for Morris and both read the dots and play by ear depending and both are accepted. Have a look at the Open Morris and the Morris Federation websites for likely teams.

Subject: RE: Folk music teachers?
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 04:54 AM

Sent you a pm Ruth

Subject: RE: Folk music teachers?
From: GUEST,Phil Williams
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 05:28 AM

Sarah Deere-Jones LRAM etc teaches Celtic (and Pedal) Harp live over the internet using Skype - these are one-to-one live lessons and it works well. She's pupils in UK, Cyprus and shortly NZ. Shes qualified to teach harp, singing and theory and plays a key-less flute.
www.cornwallharpcentre.co.uk has a page about on-line harp lessons and how it works.

Subject: RE: Folk music teachers?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 05:32 AM

There's a flute player/teacher in Manchester who achieved Grade 8 when learning entirely by ear whose contact I will PM to you when I find it.

By contrast, I found what Lu can do entirely incomprehensible as I always have to write down a tune before I can learn it.

It's something to do with the process of transferring a tune from head to fingers and the shorter this is the better. Conventionally trained teachers tend not to recognise that ear can replace sight and don't recognise that having the music in front of you can be a mere prop, a hindrance, leading to a tendency to 'play by numbers' and a cover up for lack of confidence.

I'd say try and persuade your daughter to keep up the formal lessons but with a different teacher if possible, and to get out playing in sessions. Wish I had before I got caught in tune-typing mode, unable to reproduce what's in my head. It's a sadness.

Subject: RE: Folk music teachers?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 06:35 AM

AURAL improvement can now be acheived over the internet, see associated boards website,at different grades.
another approach is to just start playing easy tunes by ear,nursery rhymes,[when the saints][ happy birthday]good king wenceslas familiar christmas carols then morris tunes like stamp and clap young collins,then tunes like winster gallop,or playing scales by ear, then playing different intervals by ear,or doing g major scale by ear in thirds,then g mixolydian scale by ear [flattened seventh].

Subject: RE: Folk music teachers?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 09:14 AM

Thanks for all your thoughts, and to those who sent contacts. I would love to get her playing for morris, or in sessions, but she has such a lack of confidence about playing at the moment...

I'll try giving the morris idea a go when we start up practicing again after the summer, if our side (and she) are willing.

And I'm definitely looking for another teacher.

Subject: RE: Folk music teachers?
From: Marje
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 09:34 AM

You could try asking EFDASS if they have any suggestions or contacts. Or if you're happy with Irish music, see whether Comhaltas is active in your area. The only other tactic I can think of is to look out for competent traditional flute players and ask them where and how they learned.

I do sympathise. Our daughters both learned instruments (flute in one case) by the "normal" classical methods, but both came to prefer a less formal, more folky approach. The flautist (now grown up) now plays various sorts of flutes and whistles in folk sessions and bands, and didn't find the transition particularly difficult, but she would have enjoyed the whole learning experience more if she'd had a teacher who used traditional tunes and methods right from the start. I think she found switching from classical (keyed) flute to whistle more demanding than learning to play by ear.

It sounds as if you need a different teacher in any case.
Good luck, I hope you manage to sort something out.

Marje

Subject: RE: Folk music teachers?
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 09:36 AM

You do have a seesion club near Grantham. Is that a possibilty?

Subject: RE: Folk music teachers?
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 09:38 AM

GRANTHAM FOLK CLUB - free
Gregory Arms, Harlaxton near Grantham
Hosted by Dave Easton, and with resident bass player JC to enhance any music, in any style, in any key… Every 4th Sunday in rotation

Subject: RE: Folk music teachers?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 10:09 AM

The workshops at Whitby often gave out dots (not the sessions obviously).
I can't find my old programme (well I can, but it's the one I pulled the middle out of!), but I went to a recorder workshop that was - first half, chat about recorders; second half, playing. I think the whistle workshop was playing from dots. I'm sure a flute would not be excluded from either. There were others that were for any instrument.
Also the Spare Parts workshops at Chippenham (you've just missed them)

Subject: RE: Folk music teachers?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 02:51 PM

Thank you everyone, again. Yes, Villan, I was at the club just this past Sunday! But it's just moved from the Gregory to the Blue Pig in Grantham. Landlord gave us some lovely butties...but it's quite guitar and singer-songwriter based. Not much in the way of tune-playing.

She'll be doing some of that sort of thing this summer, Mo, at Cambridge, Towersey and at the Shooting Roots summer school at my venue. It's all really valuable for motivation and enthusiasm. But it's that week to week stuff after the workshops are over that's so challenging to maintain.

Subject: RE: Folk music teachers?
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 05:50 PM

Well good luck with your search.

Subject: RE: Folk music teachers?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 01:58 PM

Comhaltas used to be active in Nottingham.

Subject: RE: Folk music teachers?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 02:07 PM

c.c .e. has branches in nottingham ,leicester and I think peterborough.

Subject: RE: Folk music teachers?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 03:36 PM

And if at all possible, assuming you are English (and you say you are in England) encourage your daughter not to be seduced by Euro-celtique, but rather to play English music and song. How about teaching her to sing some songs (so the tune is in her head), then you singing them and asking her to accompany you? If you tell her the key all she has to do is play scales until some of the notes sound right, and presumably you will enthuse and bring back some of the joy of participative music.

Get a song or two to an OK standard and go back to some of the clubs near you, the two of you, doing accompanied song. I guarantee they will love it.

I should know from your postings but do not remember (ill-mannered of me, sorry) whether you play and if so what, but with two voices and two instruments you could do a lot to some songs. Nottamun Town sounds great with flute over the top.

Subject: RE: Folk music teachers?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 05:23 PM

I sing, but don't play anything well enough to be called a musician. I am passionate that she should access English music - but with flute, there are a lot more Irish than English players (at least that I'm aware of). The short-term music projects she's been involved with have all focused on English music.

The participative thing is really important - she enjoys playing at festivals with other young people.

Subject: RE: Folk music teachers?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 05:26 PM

Go on. Work out some songs with flute accompaniment on some or all verses. I dare you. Take them to folk clubs. She will get a stampede of people asking if she can put a flute on this or that....

Subject: RE: Folk music teachers?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 05:24 AM

Richard Bridge is right about teaching her songs.but get her to recognise intervals by ear, a major sixth up [is the start of my bonnie.major fifth upward [ba ba black sheep].johnny todd,ROOT NOTE then major third to major fifth up,the sound of a police car,interval down of a second,etc.
I think you are making a big mistake by pressurising her to play a certain kind of music,the most important thing in my opinion,is to play music[regardless of what nationality it is.]she will choose when she is older, what she wants to do.,anyway.
perhaps, contact a local fiddler in a morris side,and if he/ she can get them to teach, both from the dots and by ear,do so. Both are very useful.

Subject: RE: Folk music teachers?
From: Marje
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 06:43 AM

I really don't believe that playing by ear is as difficult as it's sometimes made out to be. It's not helped by formal music teachers who point to the score and say, "Play what's written, not what you think it should be!". She has to learn to get away from that and have a go at playing what she thinks it should be, trusting her intuition. She doesn't even need to know how to name the intervals (fifths etc) - this may or may not be useful, but it's more a case of hearing the note you want in your head and then finding it on your instrument, by trial and error if need be.

Easy traditional English tunes should be a good starting point to develop confidence - even if she can pick out something like Mary Had a Little Lamb, that's something she can then build on. I think you're right to suggest English music to begin with, because she will already know lots of tuneful English melodies she could try to play by ear. English music also offers a good range of rhythmic dance styles (jigs, reels, marches, hornpipes, step-dances, waltzes) and plenty of opportunity to play for dancing (morris, English ceilidh, Playford etc). She may later choose Irish (or even French, or American) music, but English music is the logical place to start when you're surrounded by English culture, just as Irish music is where an Irish child would begin.


Marje

Subject: RE: Folk music teachers?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 07:00 AM

Marje, the fact is that in that area, most of the teaching is done by C C E. .Comhaltas have two branches, one in Nottingham ,one in Leicester,.EFDSS have none.
In my experience CCE teachers are happy to teach by ear.
England is a multi cultural society,in that area, your as likely to be surrounded by asian music ,and Irish music,than English music.
E.f.d.s.s have not helped themselves by closing their branches.twenty years ago when I lived in Nottingham,the situation was the same there was only Comhaltas who had experienced teachers prepared to teach by ear.

Subject: RE: Folk music teachers?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 07:43 AM

googling, leicestershire morris dancers might help you.I found about a dozen morris sides,hope that helps you Ruth.

Subject: RE: Folk music teachers?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 08:04 AM

What if you arse around on your instrument to find the note you think you want and end up playing Mary Had A Little Lamb in the key of C (to keep it simple)?

You go down to your local session and hey, that's the tune they start playing. But (being a session) they're doing it in D. But you don't know that so what you've worked out sounds horrendous (actually it doesn't but that's not quite the point). But you've still no idea why the Fs and Cs have been sharpened because you've started on the 'wrong' note. So you just do it to compensate but have no idea why because you don't know what intervals are.

A small amount of basic music theory is scarcely rocket science and saves an immense amount of time and grief. Ruth's daughter could keep a filo with manuscript paper on which to write down the first few bars of tunes with key and time signatures. And a surer way of knowing you need to transpose (for beginners and me anyway), is not so much by ear but by watching where your neighbours are putting their fingers.

Ear players generally frown at a little book and look blankly when asked what key they're proposing to play in. But if it saves your corner from sounding like a subsection of the Portsmouth Sinfonia (why are they invading every thread?), then it is surely so much the better.

Subject: RE: Folk music teachers?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 09:14 AM

Even a flute beginner (and this is not a total beginner) will be able to play several scales. Then it's only a matter of finding the key and counting the beats. Play some scales in key and in time. If it's not the note everyone else is playing, hey, it's a harmony.

And most of the time it's only a matter of looking at the row the melodeons are playing to get the key!

It's a lot simpler than accompanying a solo singer in E flat minor.

Subject: RE: Folk music teachers?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 10:29 AM

however, it would be great if The English government, could fund EFDSS,just as the Irish government funds CCE.

Subject: RE: Folk music teachers?
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 10:51 AM

I wish there was an English government!

Subject: RE: Folk music teachers?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 10:59 AM

I don't really want to get into another Comhaltas vs EFDSS debate right now, for lots of reasons. In terms of folk music, she hears a lot of English because it's what I've always had on round the house. Because the projects she's taken part in have been at English festivals, that has tended to be English music, too. Multiculturalism is great, and there are some lovely Irish flute players around. But I live about an hour from both Nottingham and Leicester, so neither is as practical as it could be for weekly music lessons anyway. But I do think that as a (half) English kid growing up in England, it won't hurt her to have some notion of her own musical heritage.

I will investigate local morris sides as a possible solution.

By the way, she's being prepared at the moment for her Grade 5 exam, so she's got some theory already.

Subject: RE: Folk music teachers?
From: Marje
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 12:03 PM

You're right, Captain Birdseye, it's sad that the British Government doesn't see fit to give more support to traditional music. And I was the one who suggested Conhaltas as a suitable source of teachers, so I've nothing against it, but I still think it makes more sense, if possible, to start with English tunes.

As to how much theory is required, it sounds as if the necessary theory is already being covered in the conventional lessons. What's needed is a more intuitive approach teaching and playing, which is difficult to get from most teachers.

An important thing (which she probably understands already) is that the keys that are used in session, morris and dance music are largely G and D, which are not the most natural keys for a conventional flautist to use.

And yes, if she likes morris tunes, do go ahead with that line of enquiry. We used to have a young girl who played flute for morris, and it sounded good - even out of doors, it soared over the sounds of melodeons etc and gave an extra dimension to the music.

Marje

Subject: RE: Folk music teachers?
From: squeezeboxhp
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 01:02 PM

thanks Richard i knew us box players were useful for something in a session (LOL)

Subject: RE: Folk music teachers?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 01:47 PM

"As to how much theory is required, it sounds as if the necessary theory is already being covered in the conventional lessons. What's needed is a more intuitive approach teaching and playing, which is difficult to get from most teachers."

Exactly.

Here's an anecdote which illustrates my basic problem with the way music is often taught and learned:

I ran a masterclass a few years ago with Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra. We offered it to the county music service's jazz orchestra. Well, the kids duly came along and they played with the orchestra, but there was no energy. Were they enjoying it? Hard to say - there was no evident enthusiasm.

The LCJO musicians were saying to the kids, "Who do you idolise? Who's your favourite sax/trumpet/trombone player? Who do you wish you sounded like when you play?" They were trying to get some fire, some passion, out of these kids. The kids just shook their heads, saying, "We don't really listen to this music..."

The musicians rounded on the conductor, saying, "Don't you play them any jazz records? How are they going to learn about jazz if they don't know what it's supposed to sound like?" They then told the kids to go out and listen to the music, let it get under their skin, to feel it. Because it was the only way they would learn to be passionate, and the only way they would learn to play it well.

I think those kids were suffering from the same malaise that affects a lot of music tuition these days. It's taught with a view to passing exams, not with a view to creating musicians. This is why I think folk-based tuition might be the answer: when you're not looking at dots, but instead having to listen and process what you're hearing, you're compelled to engage with the music and respond to the other musicians. And then there are so many informal opportunities to play when you're hooked into the folk network...what other type of music offers that?

A lot of people give up their instruments at around my daughter's age. Most of them regret it later on. But given the general approach to teaching music, it's not all that surprising that it happens.

Subject: RE: Folk music teachers?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 05:29 AM

folk based tuition,and learning by ear is a great idea,,as your daughter has some musical theory,my earlier suggestion of associating certain intervals[major sixth my bonnie] etc is possibly appropriate. exposure to traditional music ,if she is going to play this, is as you rightly say, very very important.
if you cant find local morris musicians to help her,try and get her to listen to recordings,,Young Collins is a good starting point,Winster Gallop,although not Morris[is an excellent beginners tune]Glorishers,Shepherds Hey are others.
if she can learn to sing the tunes,then she will have learned them,and should try transferring them to her flute,Iwould stick to G MAJOR to start with.being able to play by ear is so useful
best of luck .Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Folk music teachers?
From: GUEST,Bardan
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 10:26 AM

Viz the learning to play by ear and working a tune out in the wrong key comment. That's a problem for note-readers. Once you have a decent ear you'll notice you're in the wrong key and someone with experience in picking up/working out tunes will manage to transpose it simply by 'working it out on the fly'. Admittedly this daughter would probably need to get good at the whole aural side of things but that's just a question of experience and practice. I do it often enough (with songs anyway, transposing reels on the fly is rather tougher, though I'm sure there are better musicians out there who can do it) so I'm sure most other people could if they got used to the idea.

Speaking as a fiddle player, I'm quite glad I stuck with the classical teachers for as long as I did, despite not always liking the music.   They taught me good technique and I didn't end up only being truly comfortable in one or two keys. (Yes I know, good folk musicians can be comfortable in all sorts of keys and modes etc but you can't deny there are some people who seem to get stuck.) Having said that, I definitely wouldn't have sounded like a folk fiddler if I had only played classical music. It's practise that makes perfect and its hard to keep practising stuff you don't like.

Subject: RE: Folk music teachers?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 11:27 AM

I know that not all singers like uninvited accompaniment, both I sometimes go to a session were people sing old standards (whisky in the jar, my Liverpool home...) and shout out the key first.Everyone piles in.
I couldn't play by ear so could only play the few tunes I'd memorised at first, but well known songs tune fall easier under the fimgers, so are good to learn to play by ear.