has the folk carol died

Subject: has the folk carol died
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 02:04 PM

as far as I know nobody has written folk carols ,since Sydney Carter,.
is anybody still writing folk carols.
has anybody added recently new compositions to the south yorkshire folk carols.
Has anybody collected folk carols from the Islam community.

Subject: RE: has thefolk carol died
From: Anglo
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 03:20 PM

Well, John Kirkpatrick for one. Including the brilliant Chariots.

I think you might find Muslims don't celebrate Xmas.

Subject: RE: has thefolk carol died
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 03:29 PM

You can have carols that aren't Christian. Like May.
Laurel Swift wrote a wonderful Midsummer Carol in 4-part harmony about festivals and the crazy emotional roller-coaster such a season inevitably entails.

Subject: RE: has thefolk carol died
From: GUEST,martin ellison
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 03:53 PM

And Lauren McCormick's delightful "A May Carol" on TDI's "Blood & Honey" CD.
(Where you'll also find "The Bonfire Carol" and "The Midsummer Carol" - not Christmas and not newly written but carols all the same.)

Subject: RE: has the folk carol died
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 04:10 PM

Well, if they're anything like 'The Truth from above' as published by C Sharp and co, it's because people no longer have the stamina or patience to sing 15 verses to a tune that isn't exactly rivetting.

There are carols around but they tend to stay in churches and are published in happy clappy hymn, sorry... song books. I'm sure I've sung one fairly recently that was only written in the last 15 years.

LTS

Subject: RE: has the folk carol died
From: Anglo
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 04:17 PM

Yes Diane. Pardon the dryness of my attempts at humor.

Subject: RE: has the folk carol died
From: ShockedandAppalledinReading
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 04:21 PM

"Well, John Kirkpatrick for one. Including the brilliant Chariots."

for those who may not be aware, Chariots can be found on the equally brilliant 'Midwinter: a celebration of the folk music and traditions of Christmas & the turning of the year'
Free Reed Records FRQCD30 2006

Subject: RE: has the folk carol died
From: alanabit
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 04:19 AM

I could learn something here. Can someone explain the term "carol", when used in a secular context?

Subject: RE: has the folk carol died
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 04:25 AM

According to Wikipedia, the word carol is thought to have been derived from the Germanian/Yogoslavian/French language word caroller, a circle dance accompanied by singers (in turn derived from the Latin choraula). The carol was very popular as a dance song from the 1150s to the 1350s, after which its use expanded as a processional song sung during festivals, while others were written to accompany religious mystery plays.

Subject: RE: has the folk carol died
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 05:47 AM

Anglo , I am aware Muslims do not celebrate christmas,at no point in my post, was christmas mentioned.
I would like to quote from Folk Carol of England ,by Douglas Brice,[Jowl and listen is a genuine folk carol;nevertheless many collectors-perhaps the majority-would feel that they could not subscribe to that view except perhaps in those rare instances where a vigorous corporate and family relationship existed among the workers who responded to a natural impulse that was spontaneous and independent of subversive political influence]

Subject: RE: has the folk carol died
From: alanabit
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 07:28 AM

Thanks Diane.
What you can learn by reading Mudcat, eh?

Subject: RE: has the folk carol died
From: Marje
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 01:05 PM

Dancing in a circle and singing are not activities that are highly valued in Islam, as I understand it, in either religious or secular ceremonies. I would think that if Muslims did compose anything vaguely like a carol, it wouldn't be called a carol, if you see what I mean - it would have a different origin and purpose.

I think the American shape-note tradition may well be continuing to produce new songs in that style that could possibly be called carols - perhaps someone from the US will know.

Marje

Subject: RE: has the folk carol died
From: nutty
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 02:04 PM

Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper

carol (n.)
c.1300, from O.Fr. carole "kind of dance," from M.L. choraula "a dance to the flute," from L. choraules, from Gk. choraules "flute player who accompanies the choral dance," from choros "chorus" + aulein "to play the flute," from aulos "reed instrument." The meaning of "Christmas hymn" is 1502.

Subject: RE: has the folk carol died
From: nutty
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 02:07 PM

and

The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia Copyright © 2004, Columbia University Press.

carol, popular hymn, of joyful nature, in celebration of an occasion such as May Day, Easter, or Christmas. The earliest English carols date from the 15th cent. The carol is characterized by simplicity of thought and expression. Many are thought to be adaptations of pagan songs. Despite the folk-song character of true carols, many Christmas hymns composed in the 19th cent. have been called carols. The oldest printed carol is the Boar's Head Carol, printed in 1521 by Wynkyn de Worde. Carols of French origin are called noels.

See R. L. Greene, The Early English Carols (1935); E. Routley, The English Carol (1958); P. Dearmer et al., ed., The Oxford Book of Carols (1928, repr. 1964).

Subject: RE: has the folk carol died
From: Folkiedave
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 02:19 PM

Richard Green in "The Early English Carols" (1935) quoting "A disctionary of Hymnology" (1891) defines carols as:

A carol is a song of joy originally accompanying a dance. Under the term carol we may include a large class of popular songs......

Groves Dictionary of Music: defines modern usage of the carol as:

A kind of popular song appropriated to some special season of the ecclesiastical or natural year".

Oxford Book of Carols:

Carols are songs with a religious impulse that are simple, hilarious, popular and modern.

Certainly in Sheffield where we still sing "traditional" carols and where we have a sell-out festival every two years, we have adopted songs in comparatively recent times which have become part of the festival.

The best example is a religious carol "Stannington" named after its tune written by the organist of the local church dating to the early 1950's - I think it was 1951 but could stand corrected on that date.

"Swaledale" (clearly not a religious carol) was brought into the repertoire in the late 70's along with Reapers from the "Whited Harvest". A Sankey and Moody hymn.

I have no doubt others may be included. "Miners Dream of Home" for example is in a lot of the local carol books, it was a party piece of one of the singers often done (the only time I have ever heard it) on Boxing Day.

At one of the lesser known carol sings, "Have you seen My Red Yo Yo with its Wee Yellow String?" was sung at the end of the evening of a carol session, and at one time within memory the assembled company got yo-yo's out!!

Dave Eyre

Subject: RE: has the folk carol died
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 02:20 PM

Many are thought to be adaptations of pagan songs. Oh dear, oh dear. Many? Thought by who? In which centuries did people think this? Evidence, please, Columbia University.

Subject: RE: has the folk carol died
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 03:50 PM

the first carol ever to appear in print in England was the Boars Head.in 1521,aman of learning was happening to be walking from Oxford,over Shotover common,The scholar was engrossed in Aristotle at the time,when suddenly he noticed in close proximity a wild boar,he took the beast by the neck and overpowered it by forcing the book down its throat,he cut off the boars head,after mass he took it back to college,in memory of which the carol is sung yearly at Queens college, oxford.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: has the folk carol died
From: Folkiedave
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 06:18 PM

I am not sure where you read that Dick - but there are sources which contradict it as the first "carol" appearing in print.

As for the truth of the story - I leave that one strictly alone.....

Subject: RE: has the folk carol died
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 07:39 PM

the folk carol of england by Douglas Brice.

Subject: RE: has the folk carol died
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 10:34 PM

It may be the first surviving example of a carol printed in England, but it was not the first 'ever to appear in print in England'. I expect that Brice says as much if you look a little more closely.

The 'origin' story is an interesting piece of Oxford folklore, often repeated. It seems to date from the 18th century.

Subject: RE: has the folk carol died
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 04:50 AM

Malcolm,he writes,[the first carol ever to appear in print in this country was the Boars Head,which was published for the first time by Caxtons apprentice and successor Jan Van Wynken of Worth in the year 1521].
I have his book in front of me ,I would not quote from the book without looking very carefully.

Subject: RE: has the folk carol died
From: Folkiedave
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 05:18 AM

Dick,

I have to tell you then the book is wrong.

The standard work on early english carols is Green - who wrote a book with that title in 1935.

I haven't a copy of Brice to hand - but you will find he q

Subject: RE: has the folk carol died
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 06:02 AM

I dunno if it was the first carol or not, but I ate pressed pig's head for supper on Friday night.

It was astonishingly good. If anyone would like to revive the custom of serving boar's head at Christmas, please invite me round for tea.

Subject: RE: has the folk carol died
From: Folkiedave
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 06:31 AM

Hi Ruth,

Each New Year we (my wife and I) spend New Year with friends near Beamish Museum (where we used to have the NY party until retirement of one of the participants).

One of the regular guests is Peter Brears a food historian who about four years ago - prepared and cooked exactly that. At this point I might add that Peter does not drive and thus travelled up from Leeds to Beamish by public transport with the boar's head in his rucksack. Eccentric? Peter? Never!!

The process is that you buy one pigs head and ask the butcher to remove the mask - face. Boil the resultant head for six hours and remove the meat. Do things to the meat (herbs, spices etc.) and then distinctly layer the meat into the head along with other meaty things - like home made-stuffing and other sorts of meat.

Pull the mask back into the shape over the head and sew up the back with a bodkin.

Bedeck with two tusks and two eyes and bay and rosemary. It is served by removing the sewn-up back and slicing like a roast.

I have the pictures somewhere. Another year we had a rum baba which took a whole bottom of rum for soaking.

This last year it was a Yorkshire Goose Pie - which consisted of four different meats pigeon, turkey, chicken and goose, layered in a sort of enormous pork pie.

I shall seek out the photographs for you.

Sorry for the thread drift Dick, i'll come back to the carols shortly.

Busy day for me.

Subject: RE: has the folk carol died
From: GUEST,Henryp
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 06:45 AM

There are a number of new carols that come to mind;

The Field Mice's Carol from The Wind in the Willows by Kenneth Grahame, set to music by Ali Burns

The Meadowhall Carol by Jim Boyes

Peace on Earth by Jim Boyes from Kerstbestand/Christmas Truce
'The songs rang out from either side between the lines
Enchantment held the battlefield at Christmas time
No Eastern Kings came bearing gifts to celebrate a birth
But in the midst of conflict there was Peace on Earth'

Subject: RE: has the folk carol died
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 06:59 AM

This seems to have split at the seems!

1 Folk Carol traditional sings as explained by Dave Eyre             2 Writing/performing "new" folk carols

(Dave's culinary delicacies aside ~ Ive eaten pigeons and jugged hares and pigs trotters and pheasants ~ broke me teeth on em)


Folk Carols as Dave Eyre says are very much alive and well in Sheffield and into Derbyshire and out to the borders of South Yorkshire (was the Fountain at Ingbirchworth now at Upper Denby)


Sheffield at Christmas in the pubs is very much alive and well

Other organisations like Ryburn Three steps have their Long Company revival mummers together with mumming plays and no doubt other folk clubs and organisations have Christmas Carol nights

Some have been known to visit OAP Homes and certainly brass bands play in many a town "Mall" the likes of Salvation Army and local brass bands play seasonal carols

Folk clubs are still doing their bit I reckon!
Ray

Subject: RE: has the folk carol died
From: sian, west wales
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 07:09 AM

There are new Welsh carols (in the religious sense) pretty well every Christmas - some written within the Plygain tradition. Obviously, a good many of them are short-lived, or live within a small geograhic area, but that is just as it should be.

sian

Subject: RE: has the folk carol died
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 07:18 AM

Re Muslims, I have a friend from Senegal who is always known as Noel even in his own family, because he was born at Christmas.
He is a devout Muslim- in fact like many West Africans, he is a Sufi Muslim, for whom Singing and circle dancing is a fundamental part of their religious observance.
Griots do perform seasonal songs, though whether any of them are carols in any real sense, I am not sure.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: has the folk carol died
From: Marje
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 12:08 PM

OK, I stand corrected re the place of singing and dancing in the Muslim world. There are evidently huge cultural and doctrinal differences between the various factions of Islam.

I think, however, that it's true to say that most British Muslims don't make much use of song and dance in connection with religious or social rituals. That would be one good reason that British folklorists don't come across anything they could call Muslim "carols".

Come to think of it, I've never heard the word "carol" applied to the songs of any religion except Christianity (or, arguably, paganism). I've never heard anyone speak of Hindu carol or a Buddhist carol, or even a Jewish carol. These religions may well use music and song for similar purposes, but they'd have another word for the song.

Marje

Subject: RE: has the folk carol died
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 03:37 PM

The purpose of my earlier post,was to mention the amusing story involving the book of Aristotle and the wild boar.,I thought it unfair to Douglas Brice,not to quote the whole paragraph,which included the statement about it being the first carol etc.
Folkie Dave,I will continue to accept Douglas Brice,s Scholarly opinion,until you are able to provide alternative evidence.
Douglas Brices work was published in 1967,and includes interesting modern carols,and acknowledges the English folk dance and song society,and Ruth Noyes the librarian,Dr Maud Karpeles etc.