Music 'technical' question

Subject: Music 'technical' question
From: John J
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 11:35 AM

As some of you may know, my knowledge of the technical side of music is zilch - it's all tadpoles on telegraph wires to me.

A friend has asked me the following question that I am at a complete loss to answer, perhaps some of you good people could help:

"What makes English folk music English (is it just that it tends to use the pentatonic?) and Welsh music Welsh etc ?"

I look forward to your replies!

Many thanks,

John

Subject: RE: Music 'technical' question
From: Jess A
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 12:37 PM

well... tricky to define but I'll have a quick go. I'm sure somebody more eloquent will be along in a bit with a better reply.

Partly it is repertoire - some tunes are just traditionally defined as 'English' or 'Scottish' or whatever. Sometimes it's just fashion - down to what people in a particular place all liked to listen or dance to at a certain point in time. Especially if somebody then collected those tunes and published them as tunes typical of that region. If a tune has been published in a book called 'So & So's 101 best Scottish tunes' then people will be more likely to think it is Scottish... and there it all falls down because people in one region nick tunes from other regions all the time.

Partly it is the style - the speed, the rhythm, the smoothness or lumpiness of the individual notes, the choice of ornamentation... and so you could play an 'Irish' tune in an 'English' style, by altering some or all of those factors. As a very basic rule of thumb you could maybe say that English music tends to be lumpy and Irish music tends to be diddly and Scottish music tends to be somewhere in between (and I don't know much about Welsh music I'm afraid) but that is overly simplistic and possibly rather insulting to all of them :)

Partly it is the notes themselves - certain phrases or sequences of notes are typical of tunes from certain regions. Sometimes this will be down to traditional instrumentation - a lot of Scottish tunes for example were written on the pipes, and there are some runs or jumps between notes that are fall out easily under your fingers on pipes and some that are harder. (NOT that Scotland is the only country with bagpipes but don't lets get sidetracked by that one :) ).

Not sure if any of that helps to make a start?

Jess

Subject: RE: Music 'technical' question
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 12:44 PM

lumpy and diddly- lol. Love it.

Subject: RE: Music 'technical' question
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 01:08 PM

pentatonic tunes occur,in many different traditions.
there also different styles within english traditional music ,northumbrian music has litle in common with southern english music.Iwould not describe NORTHUMBRIAN MUSIC as lumpy.
Northumberland is just as much a part of England as Suffolk or Cornwall.WalterBulwer was very different from Billy Bennington,BillyPigg different again.
tellyour friend he is asking a question which cannot be answered.

Subject: RE: Music 'technical' question
From: Surreysinger
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 01:50 PM

Gosh - I'd hate to hear any _difficult_ questions that your friend might ask (said distinctly with tongue in cheek) ... I'd be at a loss to answer that one personally, and I reckon the Captain has the right of it !!

Subject: RE: Music 'technical' question
From: treewind
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 02:08 PM

Tunes and songs - where they come from and are/were sung obviously, though many have crossed borders and you have to do some very careful research to find out where they started. Pentatonic scales tend to be associated more with Scotland and the Shetlands.

Styles of playing and singing - English compared with Irish style tends to be more straightforward and less ornamented, but you can't say much more than that without being contradicted because there are exceptions to everything.

To understand the difficulty, try to answer this: what's the difference between English, Irish, Welsh and Scottish speaking accents?
(for a start, which part of England/Ireland/Wales/Scotland...?)

Anahata

Subject: RE: Music 'technical' question
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 07:59 AM

Treewind ,I am sure if I had time Icould find pentatonic tunes in the english and irish tradition,art okeefes polka[ireland],Robin hood and the pedlar England[discoverd by VaughanWilliams],that took two minutes.,Ialso found a pentatonic carol coming from hungary.
    related but slightly off topic ..    The Pentatonic scale, 1,2,3,5,6is also very useful for busking[improvising] for american and english traditional songs ,and is also used in early country music.

Subject: RE: Music 'technical' question
From: treewind
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 08:25 AM

"I am sure if I had time Icould find pentatonic tunes in the english and irish tradition"

I'm sure you could, and it wouldn't contradict what I said. If fact they are common in Irish music too. The ubiquitous "Star of the County Down" is pentatonic, for a start, and variations of it found all over the place. Lots of Chinese music is pentatonic too, in fact it's found in many cultures worldwide for good reasons.

But the OP seemed to think English music "used the pentatonic", which it does not to the extent of distinguishing it from other kinds of British or other music.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Music 'technical' question
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 09:37 AM

Some people are getting confused.

This is not really a 'technical' question, but a 'philosophical' one...

:-)


I'm not making this up you know....

Subject: RE: Music 'technical' question
From: Dazbo
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 03:40 PM

According to the wonderful Howard Goodall's music programmes ALL cultures have (or had) pentatonic music. The differences today are derived from what the cultures did to expand the musical scale.

Subject: RE: Music 'technical' question
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 07:39 PM

Howard Goodall, whoever he may be, must be utterly fucking pig-ignorant to say something like that.

There are and have been many cultures that never used more than three notes and others that never used less than seven. Nor is the direction of evolution always in the direction of adding more notes - for every region of the British Isles, there are heptatonic tunes older than any documented pentatonic one, and many of the pentatonic tunes currently played are very recent indeed.

There is no point in quoting references, five minutes in *any* decent library looking at the obvious books would flatten such a stupid generalization.

Subject: RE: Music 'technical' question
From: Joe_F
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 11:06 PM

From "Some National Characteristics in Folk Songs", a mimeographed sheet handed out in my highschool music appreciation class, ca. 1953:

_English:_ Forthright, healthy, vigorous, out-of-doors, no particular subtlety, usually straightforward. Texts often long and full of enumeration, showing the folk tunes existed for the singer. Many in older modes.
Technique: angular bit of melody, tunes transpose themselves unexpectedly, awkward intervals. Great deal of outlining of triads, wide range, showing that English were a singing country, careless and carefree and sang for the sake of singing.

Nothing about the Welsh.

FWIW.