Review: Did Young Hunting have it coming?

Subject: Review: Did Young Hunting have it coming?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 04:01 PM

I don't originate many threads, but I have been thinking of this for awhile. This is not meant to be a scholarly approach. I am a big fan of the ballad Young Hunting. There are many threads on this, but no one has done it this way. I was wondering what people thought of the notion that the main protagonist deserved his fate? I was just thinking was this the arrogance of a handsome man, who thought a winning smile would give him forgiveness for being a jerk? He tells his former lover that he's found a new love worth "ten of you." Then says how bout a kiss? You can say, is it any wonder he got stabbed? So, I suppose you could either say she gave him what he was asking for, rather than she was just an evil predatory woman. Like I said, this is meant as having fun thinking about the song. So, there's not any right or wrong answers. Go by the internal evidence of your favorite version of the song. If you want a reference version, I posted one on our website, if you want to check that out: http://www.coopernelsonearly.com I tried the blicky process, but it obviously didn't work. Sorry about that. Thanks!

Subject: RE: Review: Did Young Hunting have it coming?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 04:11 PM

As the former Countess Richard, I have to say that if the floozie hadn't done him in, slung him down the deep drawer well/into the River Clyde, I'd have done it myself.

I wrote a parody once about the Earl/Young Redin going to Tesco with his credit card and getting lots of beers on special offer but ending up down the rubbish chute at the floozie's block of flats. The tame parrot escaped being zapped with a catapult in that ine too.

Subject: RE: Review: Did Young Hunting have it coming?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 06:09 PM

Great, that's the spirit.

Subject: RE: Review: Did Young Hunting have it coming?
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 07:10 PM

The thing that has always worried me about this song is that she takes the opportunity to stab him when he leans down from his saddle to steal a last kiss. Some months later she has to get the servants to help her remove him from her bedroom because he's beginning to pong a bit. What was he doing on horseback in her bedroom? What did she do with the horse?

Subject: RE: Review: Did Young Hunting have it coming?
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 07:19 PM

Obviously, the ballad needs a few extra verses to showcase the trial when her 'offense' is discovered. Maybe public outcry will get her a commendation...but maybe HE has powerful relatives who get her condemned! I don't like this stabbing business....rather see him held up to public ridicule.....(but golly..in ballads, they LIKE the gory endings!)

Subject: RE: Review: Did Young Hunting have it coming?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 07:48 PM

I would have to say no, he didn't deserve to be stabbed and then dumped in a well! That's a bit extreme even for a woman scorned!

Subject: RE: Review: Did Young Hunting have it coming?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 08:24 PM

In the best versions the rat is slung in the River Clyde and the body's found by prototype air-sea rescue using underwater candles.

And in the really, really long-drawn out versions, the maid is set up first to burn but doesn't. Then the floozie cos the talking bird grasses her up. She burns 'like hokey green; and Martin Carthy nicks the line for Famous Flower Of Serving Men.

Subject: RE: Review: Did Young Hunting have it coming?
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 09:02 PM

Well, slinging a dead body into a well or a river would certainly be a violation of the water pollution laws.

Subject: RE: Review: Did Young Hunting have it coming?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 09:07 PM

There may be more fruitless pursuits than applying modern sensibilities to earlier curltural artifacts, but I'm not sure just what they'd be.

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Subject: RE: Review: Did Young Hunting have it coming?
From: EuGene
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 12:00 AM

Well, he could have gone the Zhivago route and got his just reward out in the street as he tried to catch his floozie's attention through the bus window. Eu

Subject: RE: Review: Did Young Hunting have it coming?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 12:18 AM

I think using a grin as justification for bad behavior is timeless. If everyone behaved sensibly, there would be no story.

Subject: RE: Review: Did Young Hunting have it coming?
From: Michael
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 04:34 AM

Slight thread creep but it's the same with most broken token type songs; if the girl just said 'Sod off you slimy git' after he tried to trick her and then revealed himself, it wouldn't make much of a story.

Mike

Subject: RE: Review: Did Young Hunting have it coming?
From: EuGene
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 08:16 AM

"Frankie and Johnny were sweethearts,
Oh, what a couple in love,
. . . "

Subject: RE: Review: Did Young Hunting have it coming?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 11:29 AM

Even if he were a cad, killing him was not appropriate response. But then, I'm a guy.

Russ (Permanent GUEST)

Subject: RE: Review: Did Young Hunting have it coming?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 12:15 PM

Oh c'mon!
All HE got was a penknife between the ribs for being a total arse,
She got burned alive.

Subject: RE: Review: Did Young Hunting have it coming?
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 01:55 PM

"I have to say that if the floozie hadn't done him in, slung him down the deep drawer well/into the River Clyde, I'd have done it myself."

What, Diane, homicide is a justifiable response to a simple dumping, in similar circumstances to Julie's ending her relationship with Jilted John?? And since the 'floozie' has violated not only the Sixth Commandment and the water pollution laws, but also perjured herself in trying to frame the poor maid and get her burned instead, *and* threatened violence against an innocent bird (cue the RSPB), I don't think she comes out of all this with particularly clean hands.

But of course it all depends on which story you decide to tell. If the child mentioned in the first verse of some versions ("Lady rock never your young son young, one hour longer for me") is actually Mr. Hunting's, then he is likely to fall foul of the CSA. And it does bring in to question whether the lady is actually his 'floozie' at all, but rather his partner in a long-term relationship, who suddenly finds out about the 'bit on the side'. Black mark for Hunting.

And then there's Frank Proffit's 'Song of a Lost Hunter' in which, at some juncture lost in the mists of tradition, the lady's maid has been subsitituted by a manservant, who is then invited into the lady's bed with Heneree's corpse still warm in the wardrobe. When the late and lamented Tom Gibney sang this version, he managed to suggest that the manservant himself was next in line for the chop, i.e. that the Lady was actually a serial killer. Black mark for her.

Snail, you need to remember that it is only in some versions of the ballad that Hunting / Redin or who-have-you gets stabbed whilst trying to grab a peck on his ex's cheek from a horseback situtation. Sometimes the lady pretends nonchalance about the love rival, invites him in and gets him well ratted, before dragging him into bed and (we can infer) f***ing him silly - and only then does she stick the knife in him (having your cake and eating it?).

Lastly, to the humourless 'Guest' who remarked: "There may be more fruitless pursuits than applying modern sensibilities to earlier curltural artifacts, but I'm not sure just what they'd be.", I suggest that one pursuit more fruitless would be to bother typing out posts to a thread you're not interested in.

Subject: RE: Review: Did Young Hunting have it coming?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 04:09 PM

From my notebook of songs:

Lovin' Henry Lee
(traditional – variation of Young Hunting, Child #68)

"Get down, get down, lovin' Henry Lee, and stay all night with me.
The very best lodgings I can afford will be far better for thee."   
"Well I can't get down, and I won't get down, and stay all night with thee,
For the girl I have in that merry green land, I love far better than thee."

She leaned herself against the fence, all for a kiss or two.
With a little penknife held in her hand, she plugged him through and through.
"Come all you ladies of the town, a secret for me keep.
With a diamond ring held on my hand, my love I'll never forsake."

"Some take him by his lily white hands, some take him by his feet.
We'll throw down this deep, deep well more than one hundred feet.
Lie there, lie there, lovin' Henry Lee, 'til the flesh drops from your bones.
The girl you have in that merry green land shall wait for you in vain."

"Fly down, fly down you little bird, and light on my right knee.
Your cage shall be of purest gold; no need for property."
"I can't fly down, and I won't fly down, and light on your right knee,
For a girl who would murder her own true love, would kill a little bird like me!"

"Oh, if I had my bended bow, my arrow, and my string
I'd pierce a dart so near your heart, your warble would be in vain!"
"Oh, if you had your bended bow, your arrow, and your string
I'd fly away to that merry green land and tell what I have seen!"

Learned in the late 1950s from Helen Thompson. Recorded by Dick Justice on the Harry Smith Anthology of American Folk Music.

####
From this text, I would say that Young Hunting, or in this case, Lovin' Henry Lee, is essentially innocent. In the first verse, the young lady asks him to spend the night with her and he refuses, telling her that he is in love with the girl he has "in that merry green land." She won't take no for an answer and when he kisses her goodbye (this may raise questions, but in some times and cultures, kissing by way of greeting or farewell was fairly common, and implied nothing beyond friendly intimacy), she stabs him to death. Not a nice lady, no matter how you slice it.

And the ladies of the town are not really a very nice bunch either, if they're willing to help her dispose of the body. And just whose well is it that they're polluting, anyway?

But—the diamond ring. Now, what's that all about? Could it be that they were engaged, but he learned that she tended to be a bit clingy and possessive, and got sorta nasty when she didn't get her own way, and decided that getting hooked up with her was not a good idea? And in the meantime, during his travels, he meets a much nicer girl "in that merry green land" and comes back to break it off with this young lady? Hence, he refuses her attempt to drag him into bed, says farewell, and in the processes of kissing her goodbye—one last kiss—she skewers him in a fit of pique? Lotsa possibilities here. . . .

And when the bird, presumably flying free, is offered the opulence of a "cage of purest gold," it not only realizes that she's not a very nice person and wisely refuses her offer to give up its freedom in exchange for a luxurious but confining abode. Could this be a metaphor for the kind of relationship that she and Henry Lee would have had, had they got married? Could it be that the bird is the transmuted soul of murdered Henry Lee come back to confront her? When she has another outburst of anger when the bird refuses her offer just as Henry Lee had done (fortunately for tweety-bird, this time she's unarmed), the bird flies off to that merry green land to fink on her.

I'd say that the ill-fated Henry Lee just got tangled up with the wrong woman. When he found his true-love and tried to break it off with the first woman, she attempted to hang onto him by dragging him into bed. When he turned her down, she didn't handle the rebuff very well. If Henry had been a bit of a cad and simply dumped her without saying anything, he might have lived.

Your mileage (and other versions) may vary.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Review: Did Young Hunting have it coming?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 04:35 PM

Or:

Earl Richard's out on the razzle and shows up at the floozie's house.

Oh light, o light Earl Richard she says, oh light and stay the night,
We shall have cheer with charcoal clear and candles burning bright.
Well I will not light, I cannot light
I cannot light at all
For a fairer maiden than ten of you is waiting at Richard Hall.

i.e.

Floozie: You coming in then?

ER: Nah, I'm going home to the wife.

So. If the floozie hadn't done the deed, CR probably would.
Quite a simple tale of everyday country intrigue.

Subject: RE: Review: Did Young Hunting have it coming?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 06:02 PM

Thanks for your post, Brian. Great house concert that you gave as well, by the way (when he was in Batavia, Illinois, sorry for the thread creep). I personally don't recommend violence/murder, etc. But I think the implicit message would be to treat one's old flames decently. In reality no one "has it coming." But I find the ballads sort of ketchup crucifix versions of situations many of us experience. The extra drama makes it memorable.

Subject: RE: Review: Did Young Hunting have it coming?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 06:18 PM

This is the kind of family history that no one will talk about a couple of generations down the road. Would you want to be descended from a grandmother like that? *G*

Subject: RE: Review: Did Young Hunting have it coming?
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 07:44 PM

Don:
Nice version, especially the "diamond ring" bit - hadn't come across that before. Without wishing to spoil the thread by getting too serious, it looks like somebody (presumably another traditional singer, long time ago) has deliberately introduced that bit to make the moral judgements a bit more complex. Just like somebody, somewhere, changed the maidservant to manservant in 'Lost Hunter', and introduced a sexual charge where previously there was none.

Diane:
"For a fairer maiden than ten of you is waiting at Richard Hall..."
[translation] "ER: Nah, I'm going home to the wife."

Is this the way an adulterer, even one who's seen the error of his ways, would speak about his wife? Sounds to me like the Lass Of Richard Hall (the 'Richard' is surely coincidental) is a more recent heart-throb.

Phil:
I meant to say hello in my first message but got carried away with ballad anorakism. Hope to return to Illinois soon.

Anonymous Guest:
You must be feeling really disgusted that some of us have carried the 'fruitless pursuit' this far.

Subject: RE: Review: Did Young Hunting have it coming?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 03:19 AM

"Floozie: You coming in then?

ER: Nah, I'm going home to the wife.

So. If the floozie hadn't done the deed, CR probably would.
Quite a simple tale of everyday country intrigue. "


It's Brian, Siobhan and Jennifer all over again. Remember when Siobhan almost killed him in that car?

Dum de dum de dum de dum...

Subject: RE: Review: Did Young Hunting have it coming?
From: GUEST,Helen
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 03:48 AM

It's got to be in the words hasn't it. ... 'A finer girl than ten of you is waiting beneath the town wall'. That's just rubbing her nose in it. Now if he'd said 'You are the most beautiful woman I have ever met, but I'm just not good enough for you', he might have managed to break up without getting stabbed. But telling her she's just not pretty enough. That hurts! And it just tells you how shallow he is! It may be murder, but there's definately mitigating circumstances. A few hours community service would have been a much more appropriate sentence than being burned alive!

Subject: RE: Review: Did Young Hunting have it coming?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 09:07 AM

No I don't think Mr Hunting should have said that. It's far too predictably dishonest.
Far better that he turned up in person and sang her Out Of Time as Mick Jagger did to Chrissie Shrimpton.
Only it didn't work!

An interesting contrast where the women win out is Fair Annie/Skön Anna.
Annie is told to keep quiet about her 7 kids and another on the way and welcome the lord's new model (who turns out to be her sister).
So they burn him.

Subject: RE: Review: Did Young Hunting have it coming?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 10:07 AM

Harsh, but fair.

Subject: RE: Review: Did Young Hunting have it coming?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 03:45 PM

I always thought he was rubbing her nose in it as well. Then adding insult to injury by asking for another kiss for old time's sake.