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songs in the public domain
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Subject: BS: songs in the public domain From: mike putt Date: 10 Jul 07 - 12:34 PM how old must a song be before it moves into the public domain and in particular lines can be quoted in print with the authors name as a reference, and does this vary around the world, thanks |
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Subject: RE: BS: songs in the public domain From: MMario Date: 10 Jul 07 - 12:39 PM It depends; qouting with attribution can be done =before it moves into the public domain; and yes, it varies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: songs in the public domain From: Genie Date: 10 Jul 07 - 01:30 PM Shouldn't this thread be in the music section, above the line? :) I believe that short segments of a literary work (including songs) can be "cited" in a scholarly or journalistic work, with proper author and copyright attribution, without permission or paying royalties. I'm just not sure about the specifics (e.g., how many lines, what portion of the work it can be). I've actually researched this to some extent at a Stanford U. site concerning copyrights, but, as usual, the law is complicated and there's no quick and easy answer. |
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Subject: RE: songs in the public domain From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 10 Jul 07 - 08:23 PM See vast numbers of previous discussions here on exactly the same subject: all can be found via the very useful search engine, which can be seen at the top of every page. Remember that law and custom differs according to where in the world you happen to live, so it is helpful if you mention whether, for example, you are in Texas, Turin, Torremolinos or Timbuktu. |
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Subject: RE: songs in the public domain From: Genie Date: 10 Jul 07 - 08:38 PM Good point, that last one, Malcolm. G |
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Subject: RE: songs in the public domain From: Artful Codger Date: 10 Jul 07 - 09:16 PM The law only outlines fair use principles, not specific metrics. But there are conventions. For instance, check the Associated Press Stylebook, which includes a "briefing on media law", including guidelines for honoring "fair use". Of particular note, the APS says that "The use of an entire copyrighted work is almost never fair", in large part because it reduces the market potential. Don't rely too heavily on the aegis of "scholarship" as a defense from prosecution. Witness the site closures being forced by music publishers and their associations. Unlike lyric sites, Mudcat Café actively promotes scholarly (or at least educational) discussion. But you, as an individual poster, may still be liable if you post the full lyrics to a copyrighted song or a MIDI/ABC of someone's copyrighted tune. And you may also be putting Mudcat at risk. Regarding how old a song must be, there have been several revisions to copyright law which make this also a complicated matter. Almost all material published before 1923 is public domain (in the US); after that, well, you need to do some research, though practically speaking, very little post-1922 material is public domain yet--music corporations have a lot of pull in legislatures around the globe. Search for previous threads on copyright. A side-note: US government documents are public domain upon publication. So get the IRS to write some good folk songs! I find the current copyright terms preposterous, and believe they should be scaled in accord with the extent of use/market, even at the risk of making the laws even more complex. It's high time we developed laws which curb rather than encourage the unfair and exploitative advantages of corporations. [Disclaimer: I am NOT an bloodsucking tool of Satan, much less a lawyer, and my pronouncements should be considered suspect rumor rather than legal advice.] |
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Subject: RE: songs in the public domain From: EBarnacle Date: 10 Jul 07 - 09:22 PM Does this mean that Guthrie's Hoover Dam songs are public domain because he was employed by the WPA when he wrote them? |
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Subject: RE: songs in the public domain From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Jul 07 - 09:39 PM I've wondered the same thing about Woody's Columbia River songs. Sure as heck seems like they should be in the public domain, since the taxpayers paid for them. I suppose it depends on the terms of Woody's contract. I suppose Sonny Bono's 1923 endpoint will never be changed in the United States - I think songs published after 1923 will be 140 years old before they become public domain. Once Congress gives the corporations a gift, it never takes it back. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: songs in the public domain From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 10 Jul 07 - 10:23 PM Fortunately, American law doesn't yet govern the entire world; though we do all seem to be heading that way. Meanwhile, if we are to avoid unnecessarily repeating most of what has already been said in the 8 million previous threads on this subject, might we wait until 'mike putt' graces us with some information as to what jurisdiction he might happen to live under? I have a vague idea that he may live in Ireland; if that's the case, US law is completely irrelevent to his question except as an example of the astonishing fact that different countries often have different laws. |
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Subject: RE: songs in the public domain From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 11 Jul 07 - 12:47 AM We are mixing fishes with clone-bones in this thread. Public Domain - copyright - were major battles for Kippling & Sam Clemmons who found their novels quickly reprinted and "Napsterized" by China. They fought for international copyright laws - note older 1900 books with multiple locations of copyright.
Regarding Publishing STYLE The rules for citations and NUMBERS varies by the intended publisher and audience. For example:
Journalism = Associated Press Stylebook = APS = primary style and usage guide for most newspapers:
Social Science = American Psychological Association = APA = probably 90% of all U.S. academic research falls into this style.
English/Lit = Modern Langauge Association = MLA = a snooty bunch of snotty nosed English teachers (that will quibble over "the Cambridge comma)
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: songs in the public domain From: Genie Date: 11 Jul 07 - 04:48 PM Artful Codger, I don't know if the IRS has written any good folk songs, but they've been known to create and produce a few farces. G |
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Subject: RE: songs in the public domain From: PoppaGator Date: 11 Jul 07 - 06:08 PM A while ago, I was recommended to someone looking for "new" musical acts to videotape and put on small-time TV. (Local cable access, plus streaming on his personal website, if I'm not mistaken.) When I admitted that I didn't write my own songs, he blew me off immediately. Said he wouldn't/couldn't pay royalties for anyone's compositions, and routinely asked singer/songwriters to waive any right to collect money for singing their own stuff on his videos. He called back later and said, well, maybe if you can do a full set of songs all in the public domain, we could work something out... Nothing ever came of this, but it set me to wondering. My repertoire includes a number of old folksongs that probably qualify as "public domain," but in at least a few cases, the piece that I've learned to perform is copied as closely as possible from a particular artist's recording ~ for example, say, Mississippi John Hurt's version of C.C. Rider. Would I "owe" MJH's estate for performing my imitation of his version of an uncopyrighted song? From a strictly personal moral/ethical viewpoint, I would feel absolutely no obligation to pay off John's granddaughter in a case where I'm making little or no money. After all, like lots of people, I do a whole bunch of Bob Dylan songs without making any appreciable profit in the process, and don't even think about mailing off checks to The Bob. On the other hand, I might feel that I should make some reasonable payment to the Hurt estate if I were to turn such a performance into a money-making hit record ~ fat chance of that, of course! But I realize that legality does not always coincide with one's moral or ethical judgement. Can an instrumental arrangement of a traditionnal song, or a particular set of verses put into a particular order in the manner of some earlier artist, be subject to royalty obligations even when the song title is public domain? |
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Subject: RE: songs in the public domain From: PoppaGator Date: 12 Jul 07 - 05:26 PM refresh, before this drops off the 24-hour page... C'mon ~ discuss, please! I don't expect a definitive answer, but I'd be interested in any kind of input about my question, whether "versions" or "arrangements" of traditional public-domain songs are subject to copyright protection. Does no one else out there find this interesting? |
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Subject: RE: songs in the public domain From: mike putt Date: 12 Jul 07 - 06:11 PM malcolm you are right i do live in ireland, I am thinking of using a one line quote from a song with the writers name and the year it was written on a t shirt |
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Subject: RE: songs in the public domain From: Artful Codger Date: 12 Jul 07 - 06:33 PM Genie, you're more likely thinking of the US legislatures, and their capacity for generating farce seems endless. The poor IRS is only an enforcement dogsbody that dances to Congress's tune. Gator, that has already been copiously addressed in other threads. Copyright covers non-generic arrangements generated from public domain material. However, the copyright only covers that arrangement or recording. No one must seek your permission to derive a different arrangement from the original work. If your (for-profit) performance is identifiably cloned from someone else's copyrighted arrangement, you are infringing copyright, regardless of whether the original work is in the public domain. [Same disclaimer as in my previous message.] |
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Subject: RE: songs in the public domain From: MMario Date: 12 Jul 07 - 08:11 PM poppaG - arrangements definately are. Unique blends of different published versions probably are. |
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Subject: RE: songs in the public domain From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 12 Jul 07 - 08:59 PM All of this is spelled out in the U. S. online government publication, http://www.copyright.gov Copyright U. S. As has been posted several times before , as noted by Malcolm Douglas. Beware of 'advice' found in these threads. The comments by MMario and Artful Codger re arrangements are correct, but look it up for yourself. A similar online booklet for UK regulations is also available, as mentioned and linked in previous threads, or look it up yourself. So-called 'International copyright' has been mentioned as well, which means usually that the copyright holder has taken care to register in the UK as well as the U. S.; however, the EU also also has moved into the field, but this is still in a state of flux. See, among others: http://ec.europa.eu/internal_market/copyright/index_en.htm Copyright and related rights Take anything you see in Wackipedia with a ton of salt; there are 'articles' on copyright in there that contain questionable material. Finally no regulations cover all possible situations; that is why there are lawyers specializing in litigation on copyright. |
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Subject: RE: songs in the public domain From: Stringsinger Date: 12 Jul 07 - 09:52 PM Copyrights are often renewed so works don't go into public domain and this would be true for songs written prior to 1923. The copyright system is a leaky sieve and mostly the idea of "intellectual property" is often misused. The root of the laws are about business. The creator wants to be paid. Here's where it gets sticky. Who is the creator? In the case of Broadway show tunes or popular music of the 30's through 60's, we would be hard-put to say that for example that Cole Porter didn't write "Night and Day". However, there is a question about "Don't Fence Me In". Did Dylan write any of his tunes really? Did Woody, for that matter. These writer's songs can be traced directly to antecedent melodies. A.P. Carter claimed copyright for "Wildwood Flower" which he did not write. Maude Irving did years before. Did Paul Simon write "Scarborough Fair"? (the Canticle part I guess). There are twelve notes to the chromatic scale. How original is original? As for lyrics, I think the main issue in a court of law is proving "access" to a song that was composed by someone. If you go on BMI or ASCAP websites and check out publishing, you would be shocked at what people have claimed to have written. These copyrights, however, are really unenforceable. It can be shown that PD material was slightly rewritten and wouldn't hold water (like a sieve) in a court of law. There was a concerted effort some time ago to put songs that are deemed traditional or folk in a Public Domain through registration with the Library of Congress. I think that this is a great idea. I think that the copyright laws protect the established songwriters and mean little to those not well-known. The only thorn in that side is if a song is "nicked" (as the Beatles say) and it becomes famous. Whenever a folk song can be treated as Public Domain, then the folk process survives. Frank Hamilton |
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Subject: RE: songs in the public domain From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 12 Jul 07 - 10:19 PM Nobody so far has bothered to address 'mike putt's' original question. Admittedly it was a bloody stupid question, since he didn't think to tell us what country he lives in, or what song he had in mind; but we do now know that that country is Ireland, and that he just wants to print one line of whatever song it is on a t-shirt; and that he intends to credit the writer. Obviously I am not an expert on Irish copyright law. Unless it is very strange indeed, however, my guess would be that there is no reason whatever why he shouldn't do whatever he wants, unless he is planning to use that one line to promote a political agenda that the writer of the song, whatever it might chance to be, might be opposed to. If that is a possibility, then I'd suggest that he contact whoever wrote the song. Otherwise, I'd suggest that he stop fretting about it and just do it. |
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Subject: RE: songs in the public domain From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 12 Jul 07 - 10:32 PM If there is valid copyright, he should request permission from the copyright holder. One frequently sees acknowledgement of permission for a line or two of copyright material. |
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Subject: RE: songs in the public domain From: GUEST,LM Date: 13 Jul 07 - 06:55 AM I like these sites for looking up when music is in the public domain: http://www.unc.edu/~unclng/public-d.htm http://www.copyright.cornell.edu/training/Hirtle_Public_Domain.htm http://www.pdinfo.com/ There's also a mailing list that sometimes discusses the topic at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pdsongs Quoting lines of songs not in the public domain is a grey area that may or may not fall under the categories of fair use or educational use. |
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Subject: RE: songs in the public domain From: GUEST Date: 13 Jul 07 - 04:18 PM This is probably a better chart for international info: http://imslp.org/wiki/1923-1963_copyright_law |
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Subject: RE: songs in the public domain From: Artful Codger Date: 13 Jul 07 - 04:26 PM Stringsinger, I believe you're incorrect about copyrights to pre-1923 works still being in effect through renewals (except for a handful of works granted special status)--at least in the US. You may be thinking of revised works, where post-1922 revisions are covered by copyright. But this does not prevent use of the works in their original form (or derivation from that source material). One should also be wary of reprinting collated texts, as the collation may constitute a distinctive and thus copyrighted arrangement. |
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Subject: RE: songs in the public domain From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 13 Jul 07 - 07:50 PM It helps to read what is in the U. S. Copyright site linked above. "Therefore the U. S. copyright in any work published or copyrighted prior to January 1, 1923, has expired by operation of law, and the work has permanently fallen into the public domain in the United States." ......... "Unless the copyright law is changed again, no works under protection on January 1, 1999, will fall into the public domain in the United States until January 1, 2019." "If a work was first published or copyrighted between January 1, 1923, and december 31, 1949, it is important to determine whether the copyright was renewed during the last (28th) year of the first term of the copyright. This can be done by searching the Copyright Office records or catalogs....." If no renewal registration was made, copyright protection expired permanently at the end of the 28th year of the year date it was first secured." A re-writted or revised work, of course is another matter. |
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Subject: RE: songs in the public domain From: Artful Codger Date: 14 Jul 07 - 01:52 PM Re-writted? Those legal bloodsuckers get their hands into everything! :-} |
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