What's so wrong about Barbershop?

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:44 AM

I would assume that that was indeed one of the meanings intended to be understood.

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 06:28 PM

The line "When the emptiness eats me" together with the rotting corpses reflect a kind of depth, but not the sort that the artists may have intended.

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 05:26 PM

What's "meaningful" mean, anyway?

To me, much of the purely-traditional folksong favored by many of our brethern hereabouts is pretty shallow in lyrical content, especially in comparison to much of the recently-written stuff (e.g., mid-20th-century acoustic "singer/songwriter" material) that they reject.

The "s/s" stuff I like most is, not surprisingly, the product of artists of my own approximate age (Dylan, Paxton, Hunter/Garcia, Jackson Browne, Randy Newman, Lucinda Williams, Smokey Robinson, our buddy Bruce, etc., etc.). No one of the younger generation(s) has really caught my fancy, but then I'm not listening to very much of their output.

I wonder if the appeal of much really old material has anything to do with "meaning," as much as the simple appeal of evoking an earlier age.

Barbership certainly evokes an earlier, and presumably "simpler," era...but maybe it's not earlier enough (far enough into the past) to have the same appeal as, say, a Child ballad.

And, to clarify things further, I have noting againt "meaningless" songs per se. There are songs I really love with nothing but nonsense lyrics; I do not fully understand why I like 'em so much, but whatever the reasons might be, they obviously must be purely musical.

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 04:04 PM

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "depth of meaning". Myself I'd think this qualifies: Coop Boyes and Simpson singing Lay Me Low.

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 03:25 PM

I don't know--I'm not familiar with any of those artists, so, rather than doing something of value this afternoon, I googled them--checked the lyrics, listened to a couple tunes, and I'm not seeing any great depth of meaning--typical folkie stuff, which is fine for them that likes it, but don't kid yourself into thinking that it means much more than the usual barbershop repertoire-

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 02:28 PM

Not so. An difvcourse that should have been Coope, Boyes and Simpson. Sound like a firm of lawyers. Or rather they don't sound like a firm of lawyers, but the name does.

Barbershop always sound to me like a musical instrument with very interersting possibilities being used to play music that doesn't even begin to open up those possibilities. A grand piano playing chopsticks.

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 02:20 PM

You're being ironic, again, McGrath--

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 01:04 PM

If you have ever seen "The Music Man," on film or stage, the Buffalo Bills were a grand example of the possibilities inherent in the form. My two sons immediately liked the sound when they first heard it, at ages 5 and 7 - they still do.

For me, it has little to do with the get-up, which is obviously meant to evoke turn-of-the-century (19th/20th)spring and summer imagery, with the stripes, white linen pants and boaters, etc. I just like the sound of good harmony, whether in voice or in, for example, a brass choir or wind or string ensemble. The sound is more than the sum of its parts. It's not for everyone, and seems very dated and treacly for many, but I still like to listen, now and then.

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: GUEST,Will Lever
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 12:56 PM

Nothing wrong with it - it's pleasant enough but is very similar to cathedral choirs singing Christmas carols it's just musical wallpaper. It just doesn't get me emotionally and a few minutes later I can't remember what it was about nor the tunes - and I think that is part of why traditional folk singers and musicians are indifferent to it - it is not unpleasant - but the artifice involved is it's main purpose and the story and human emotional interaction with music and words is secondary, if there at all. As a genre a bit closer to classical music with a bit of blues/jazz scales. Which I know appeals to many people but is not my thing. Really what I am trying to say is why I personally prefer traditional folk song - which is more difficult without getting involved into what constitutes 'folk'.

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 06:29 PM

Why don't they ever seem to sing any songs with any meaningful content?

As people like Cooper Boyes and Simpson or Artisan, or the Voice Squad have demonstrated it is quite possible to have outstanding harmony singing while singing stuff that actually means something.

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 03:07 PM

The term 'categories' is a very useful word. It allows us to structure our thoughts and activities in practical ways.

As I said WAY back up ↑ there, and M. Ted indicates, you can't fit everything under one roof. We NEEDS ways to refer to subsets of "music", so that folks can discuss 'Barbershop' separately from Scared Harp..etc.

(and yeah, that DOES mean we need to be ably to refer to 'traditional folk' without having 'singer/songwriter' get stuffed in by those who have no idea of historical perspective!)

Barbershop is a very narrow category with tightly controlled rules & competitions and musical content. And in MY narrow view..*grin*...it is nice, but it don't belong in a 'folk' forum at all!

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: GUEST,jim
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 02:49 PM

ref

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: M.Ted
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 11:29 AM

If you renamed Barbershop singing "Harmony Singing" then no one would know that it was Barbershop Singing, and you'd draw the Sacred Harp Singers, and the Doo-Wop Singers, and the Vocalese singers--all fine folks on their own, but mix them together and you're in trouble.

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: GUEST,Terry Burns
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 10:53 AM

Barbershop singing should be renamed harmony singing. I started singing just over a year ago and since then have met many friends and enjoyed some great evenings and weekends.
If you haven't even tried it, how do you know if you don't like it? It's definitely musical, sometimes quite lyrical and always challenging.
If you fancy dipping your toe in the water come along to a new singing course in Clifford, starting on Sept 9th. Interested? email [e-mail].

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: Keef
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 08:32 PM

It's American,(see footnote) It's Cheesy.
That's probably why nobody turned up when I put on a show featuring our own quartet and some other stuff.
I did barbershop for about a year, learned heaps.
Just the same as an Accapella concert, it is a passive thing for the audience, making up improvised harmonies is frowned on.
I much prefer the audience in a folk club that will join in and create glorious never to be repeated spontaneous harmony.
There is definitely such a thing as too much rehearsal.

In Australia It's sooo cool to be antiamerican, even though we wear baseball caps on backwards and call each other dude

That's my two bob's worth
Want fries with that?
Keef

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: Saro
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 06:26 PM

Quite right, and apologies PoppaGator! I was referring to the UK, forgetting the "worldwideness" of Mudcat.
Saro

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 05:08 PM

Saro ~

"All over the country"? We mudcatters are all over the world, and for many of us, community group singing unfortunately does seem to be largely a thing of the past. I guess it depends not only upon what country you live in, but what part of the country...

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: Saro
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 04:36 AM

Mr Ted writes "Harmony singing is a social activity, and, though it is a much loved one, it has gone by the wayside, and been forgotten by most folks. In the once-upon-a-time not-that-long-ago, there were Glee Clubs and Singing Societies and Community Choruses, as well as the barroom crooners of the Pious Friends variety. Families used to sing together, unabashedly and even enthusiastically--now, the only place people sing together is in church--"   

But surely not - what about the huge rise in the number of community choirs and singng workshops that seem to be springing up all over the country? I have felt for a long time that some of them are a secular replacement for church. Certainly at our community choir people meet regularly, sing lustily, go away feeling uplifted (well, mostly), dvlop social network etc. We just don't worship anything or anyone in the process.
Saro

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jan 08 - 11:11 PM

You are most welcome, Joe.

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Jan 08 - 10:54 PM

Well, it's an old thread, so I'm sure they've all cooled down by now.

I really love barbershop harmony, but I have to say that the element of competition can sometimes be a bit too much, and that competition can make the singing just a bit too "slick" for me. But although I have misgivings about competition, I've heard some wicked good singing at barbershop competitions.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: Gulliver
Date: 17 Jan 08 - 10:43 PM

Talk about discussing something to death. There's nothing wrong with Barbershop. Like every other music form, it's great! There are some great songs out there, going back almost a hundred years. What's the point in getting so het up about it?

(or am I missing something here?)

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Jan 08 - 10:00 PM

Peace sent me a link to The New Zealand Association of Barbershop Singers, Incorporated (almost as long a name as the SPEBSQSA). Good stuff on the Website.
Classic tags are in this PDF file: http://www.nzabs.org.nz/tags/classic%20tags_men.pdf, which I haven't inspected yet.
Thanks, Peace.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: GUEST,Mike Miller
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 11:19 AM

I forgot to sign that last post. Somehow, I lost my membership when I changed servers. I e-mailed Joe but, so far, I am just a lowly guest. Still, I wanted to thank M.Ted for his succint wrapup.

                   Mike

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 11:16 AM

M.Ted, I couldn't have said it better.

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 11:13 AM

I have a couple more thoughts before letting this thread go(and, yes, I've said it all before, and probably better)--

Harmony singing is a social activity, and, though it is a much loved one, it has gone by the wayside, and been forgotten by most folks. In the once-upon-a-time not-that-long-ago, there were Glee Clubs and Singing Societies and Community Choruses, as well as the barroom crooners of the Pious Friends variety. Families used to sing together, unabashedly and even enthusiastically--now, the only place people sing together is in church--

The temptation is to say that, like many other things, people just don't have time for it, but I think there is more to it--Harmony singing is based on co-operation, and the first thought is, "What can we all do together?" That's an idea that runs counter to the prevailing popular philosophy of "I want total freedom to do what I want, where I want, and how I want."

Artful Dodger asks, "Why do we have no a cappella small-group tradition that caters to a real diversity of music: madrigals, glees, art songs, minstrel songs, folk songs, barbershop, ragtime/novelty, swing, doo-wop, jazz, pop.."

While it is true that there are some groups that can do that, when you demand that of everyone, you really set a barrier--because if everyone can't do everything, then no one can do anything--

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: Mike Miller
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 01:24 AM

I reccomend, to the Artful Codger, that he check out the Swingle Singers. I, also, think it bears mentioning that almost all Barbershop groups are amateurs, who treasure their musical traditions. Certainly, there are songs that are sung by every barbershopp quartet and chorus. They are called Barber Polecat songs and every barbershoppers knows them by heart. I was doing a strolling job in a large township park when I encountered a Barbershop quartet, all strangers to me. I waited until they started "My Wild Irish Rose" and I, just, started singing with them.
An important fact has been missing from this thread. Barbershoppers are the warmest, most accessable folks as you will find. They sing because they love it. They are proud of the sound they achieve and they take pride in their performances.

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: Artful Codger
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 07:34 PM

To mind, it is the competitive formalism of SPEBSQSA that limits and deadens the genre. In certain ways, it's laudable: "preservation" is in the name, after all, and judging can be more objective when the criteria are well-known by all in advance. Amateurs are drawn to the cozy and familiar, a definable target to aspire to.

But when quartets are allowed to do the equivalent of free-styling, that's when they most sparkle and amaze, and the repertoire diversifies. Several times I've been tempted to try barbershop, electrified by a few groups at a showcase, but the thought of having to perform the core repertoire in the standard style stops me dead.

Of course, there's doo-wop, but doo-wop groups also suffer from a narrow style and choice of material. It seems you have to join a large chorus in order to sing a real diversity of music in a group, and then you have all the restrictions and artificiality of that environment, with little choice about the material.

Why do we have no a cappella small-group tradition that caters to a real diversity of music: madrigals, glees, art songs, minstrel songs, folk songs, barbershop, ragtime/novelty, swing, doo-wop, jazz, pop...? I can only think of two small groups that have made forays into a fair variety of genres: The Manhattan Transfer and The King's Singers.

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 11:35 AM

In anycase, following on from Mike Miller's post above, is there some sort of rule that says music is to be dismissed unless it's actively enjoyed at all times by a wide range of people of a variety of races and ethnicities? Traditional English folk doesn't get much of an audience mix at gigs, but there again, I wouldn't personally be interested in going to a ragga gig. As long as no-one's oppressing or discriminating against anyone on racial or ethnic grounds, a bit of diversity, variety and difference is no bad thing.

Nigel

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: Mike Miller
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 09:21 AM

And, may I ask, when did White music being influenced by Black music start being reprehensable? If Barbershop was, in fact, a White reaction to Black close harmony, we are the richer for it. Afrocentric musical influence has reshaped the face of American music since the mid 19th century.
And, when it comes to integration, I know a lot more Black Barbershoppers than I do Black bluegrassers. Come to think of it, the Black contingent among singer/songwriters is kind of srarce, too.
The last big folk stars, of color, were Harry Belafonte and Josh White. The fact is that folk scene has never been popular in the Black community (Check the audience at a Doc Watson concert).
So, love Barbershop or hate it, but don't go on a racism rant. Barbershop choruses are unrestricted and more integrated than you think.

                        Mike

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 04:19 AM

I don't think there's anything wrong with barbershop. I had a lovely short back and sides last time I went...

Seriously, there's nothing wrong with it as long as I'm not in the same room. It really, really sets my teeth on edge. And I've absolutely no idea why, although the cheesiness may have something to do with it.

Still, as long as everyone's happy and no-one's getting hurt...

Nigel

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 04:56 PM

From Wikipedia, quoting some Barbershop organization's handout:

Barbershop music features songs with understandable lyrics and easily singable melodies, whose tones clearly define a tonal center and imply major and minor chords and barbershop (dominant and secondary dominant) seventh chords that resolve primarily around the circle of fifths, while making frequent use of other resolutions. Barbershop music also features a balanced and symmetrical form, and a standard meter. The basic song and its harmonization are embellished by the arranger to provide appropriate support of the song's theme and to close the song effectively.

Barbershop singers adjust pitches to achieve perfectly tuned chords in just intonation while remaining true to the established tonal center. Artistic singing in the barbershop style exhibits a fullness or expansion of sound, precise intonation, a high degree of vocal skill, and a high level of unity and consistency within the ensemble. Ideally, these elements are natural, unmanufactured, and free from apparent effort.

The presentation of barbershop music uses appropriate musical and visual methods to convey the theme of the song and provide the audience with an emotionally satisfying and entertaining experience. The musical and visual delivery is from the heart, believable, and sensitive to the song and its arrangement throughout. The most stylistic presentation artistically melds together the musical and visual aspects to create and sustain the illusions suggested by the music.

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 04:52 PM

Azizi was absolutely correct in observing that there are very few "people of color" participating at Mudcat these days ~ certainly, very few African-Americans. There is certainly much less discussion of the blues and of other African-influenced American forms than there was only a few years ago. I think that's undeniable and, though not necessarily a bad thing, it can't be dismissed with the dumb comment that "we're all of color" (e.g., ranging from pasty white though pale pink to maybe a sort of beige-ish tan, relieved by the occasional sprinkle of freckles).

Where she was out of line, in my judgement, was in objecting to the absence of significant references to Negritude in this discussion of Barbershop singing. Is there any more lily-white musical endeavor extant in contemporary culture?

I found the message that revealed the possibility of any African-American influence upon the early roots of Barbershop to be very interesting food for thought. It was interesting and revelatory precisely because current-day Barbershop culture is white as Wonder bread.

If anyone had been able to expand on this observation (rather than simply to complain that it wasn't enough), it would have been great ~ but apparently there just isn't much more that can be said on the topic.

The ability to sing in harmony is not exclusive to any ethnic group. Each of our many diverse clans includes musical geniuses as well as a few tone-deaf members. Styles may differ of course ~ harmony singing that developed among Caucasian communities can be expected to sound different from the vocal mixes produced by groups of African descent. But clearly, members of any nationality, or "race," or whatever, are capable of developing their own harmony-singing traditions.

In the case of the barbershop tradition, it may or may not be true that the earliest examples of that defining close-harmony style may have developed among African-Americans. However, it's at least as likely that it developed as part of the minstrel-show scene which consisted of white folks trying to emulate and/or parody black music, with varying levels of success.

American music, which has pretty much become "world" music by now, can generally be described as a marriage of African and European traditions. That's what makes it so great! Many traditions or "subgenres" ~ blues, jazz, etc. ~ may justly be regrarded as primarily African, wherein most of the important artists may indeed be of Arican descent. But it stands to reason that others, while incorporating important African elements, are predominantly European in style and approach, and attract performers from primarily European/Caucasian backgrounds. I would think that Barbershop clearly fits the latter category.

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 12:30 AM

There are people who dig long, narrow, if not particularly deep, trenches with blues and bluegrass music as well.

Swing is a lot broader field of endeavor,but I've been told that in one of the circles of Hell, you're stuck in traffic, in an overheated 1965 Chrysler Newport, while the radio plays "The Swingin' Hits of Les and Larry Elgart "--forever!!!

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: Mike Miller
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 09:18 PM

Dear Guest meself,

   You've just got to get ahold of yourself.

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 09:11 PM

"And I'm not labeling all barbershop as masturbatory music--it's just that it's one of the genres that seems to encourage it."

Now that's funny - the masturbatory urge is one I never felt while listening to barbershop. Maybe I'm missing something ...

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: Mike Miller
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 08:09 PM

Right, M.Ted. Like Old Timey is rife with creative interpretation. Let's play "Soldier's Joy" a lot and let's play it the same way, over and over. Ooh, let's do it, again. (zzzzzzzzz......).
One of the reasons I like bluegrass, blues, and swing is the flexability of the arrangements and the freedom of lead.
Also, I apologise to Dick Greenhaus for suggesting he is a scholar. He has spent a lifetime nurturing and protecting his innocence and natural ignorance.
Dick is one of my oldest friends, which will give you an idea what a swell life I lead.

                      Mike

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:57 PM

They also apply to baroque music, while we're at it. And I'm not labeling all barbershop as masturbatory music--it's just that it's one of the genres that seems to encourage it.
The question is "What's so wrong about Barbershop?"...I attempted to suggest a possible answer. What's wrong with chili peppers is that they can burn your tongue--that doesn't mean that I'm opposed to chili peppers.

And Mike--what do you mean "eminent a scholar "? I plead not guilty to both counts.

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:27 PM

The above comments apply to Dixieland, too--

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:25 PM

Well, since you started it, Dick, I'll bury the hatchet deeper;-)

All three genres are restricted on a fairly small number of musical conventions, which makes them easily accessible to both listeners and new players, but limits the range of expression, and offers little opportunity for creativity--long term players don't have much to do but to refine their skills--

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: Mike Miller
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:23 PM

I would never disagree with so eminent a scholar as Dick Greenhaus, but his fun for the doer but not for the listener argument is, both, cogent and inaccurate. It is, surely, fun to do, as all the present and former Barbershoppers have attested. It is, also, a popular genre as performance art. I have attended more than a few Mainliners concerts, and there wasn't an empty seat in the house. They perform at a number of summertime venues and they are the most attended shows of the series. I will, personally, escort Dick and Susan to a show so he can count the house for himself.
Technique is a big part of a SPBQHSA performance and, to this end, they rehearse a lot. So does every other singing group, or they should. Performance is not the same as singin' and strummin' on one's front porch. It is not a jam session in festival parking lot. As I, previously, stated, One could make a decent argument that folk music cannot cooincide with professional performance. But some traditional music has always been performed and was so intended. Child ballads were the creation of long gone singer/songwriters who made their living singing them.
My original post was questioning why some traditions are more folkie than others on Mudcat. It doesn't take a genius to list the OK and the Ignored. On the A List, is Ballads, Blues, Bluegrass, a biss'l Klezmer, Irish and every singer/songwriter with a CD. On the D List,
we find Jazz, Polkas, Barbershop, Cowboy Swing, Italian and every singer/songwriter who is successful (except Dylan, maybe).
Did I miss anyone?

                      Mike

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 02:48 PM

Barbershop harmony suffers from the same thing that limits bluegrass and a lot of Irish sessiun music--it's all too often a triumph of technique over musicality. And while it--like the other two genres--is undoubtedly fun to participate in, it's not always as much fun for listeners.

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 02:36 PM

". . . the guitar is a fairly modern fashion in folksong."

Well . . . maybe. Some of the people that Olive Dame Campbell, Cecil Sharp, and others collected from did accompany themselves on some sort of musical instrument, usually something fairly small and portable. The banjo was fairly common, and some folks made their own instruments. For example, the Appalachian dulcimer. And, if I remember correctly, singer and song collector Frank Warner played a banjo he made himself. And there were a fair number of fiddles around, some store-bought, some home-made.

The "parlor guitar" was fairly common in the 1800s and into the early 1900s. Most "well-appointed" houses had a piano in the parlor, but if they couldn't afford a piano (or sometimes even if they could) there would be a guitar there. Hence, "parlor" guitar.

And the folks in the Southern Appalachians and in the Ozarks and in other presumably isolated areas were not really that isolated. A common item in what might be a meager library (a few school books, a Bible, and a hymnal) would be the latest Montgomery-Ward and/or Sears Roebuck mail-order catalog. You could order things through these catalogs that you couldn't get locally. And they listed a few modestly priced guitars ($2.50 to maybe $15.00) that were reasonably playable.

A singer singing to the accompaniment of a small, portable instrument such as a guitar is a tradition that goes back to the wandering minstrels and troubadours singing to the accompaniment of a lute or similar instrument. Homer's Iliad could be read (by those who could read), but is said to have been chanted to the accompaniment of a lyre or harp.

By the way, large-bodied guitars like Martin Dreadnaughts and Gibson Jumbos are fairly recent. Until these came along, most guitars were somewhat smaller. Some modern classic guitarists have noted that the "heroic stretches" that one sometimes finds in guitar music by composers such as Fernando Sor are not because Sor had huge hands with long fingers, but because the guitar he was playing was smaller, with a somewhat shorter scale-length than modern classic guitars.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 11:49 AM

I think that all of us "folkies" are looking for that moment, meself--

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 11:29 AM

What a lovely, evocative piece of writing ...

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 11:09 AM

Your piano comment is nearly as amusing as Mike's guitar comment--to bring it full circle to Mike's original post concerning the banjo--here is a quote, lifted from "Cecil Sharp in America" ,--Olive Dame Campbell, you may or may not remember, is the one whose collection inspired Sharp to collect in the US--

  In December, 1907, the Campbells visited Hindman Settlement School in Kentucky and it was there that Olive Dame Campbell heard a student, Ada Smith, sing a version of the ballad Barbara Allen.

"Shall I ever forget it.  The blazing fire, the young girl on her low stool before it, the soft strange strumming of the banjo - different from anything I had heard before - and then the song.  I had been used to singing Barbara Allen as a child, but how far from that gentle tune was this - so strange, so remote, so thrilling.  I was lost almost from the first note, and the pleasant room faded from sight; the singer only a voice.  I saw again the long road over which we had come, the dark hills, the rocky streams bordered by tall hemlocks and hollies, the lonely cabins distinguishable at night only by the firelight flaring from their chimneys.  Then these, too, faded, and I seemed to be borne along into a still more dim and distant past, of which I myself was a part."

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 05:41 AM

Mike Miller you really must stop generalising about folk music, when the great English folksong collecters like Cecil Sharp were collecting, folksongs were ALWAYS sung with a piano accompaniment, the guitar is a fairly modern fashion in folksong.

eric

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 03:03 PM

I count jazz as folk music-at least the older kinds of jazz--and I count most American folk music as forms of jazz--as for the guitar, the folk ways of playing it really come out of the old banjo styles--listen to Vess Ossman's banjo recordings from around the turn of the 19th, and compare to your favorite finger picker, or Uncle Dave Macon, for that matter.

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: Mike Miller
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 02:14 PM

M.Ted is quite correct about the formal training enjoyed by the early black composers. While the intent of their training was, no doubt, for sacred music, we owe, virtually, all American popular music to their creativity and their ability to blend Eurocentric and Afrocentric musical traditions. This point brings us back to the original question, why are some traditions seem as "folkier" than others. If Elizabeth Cotton is folk, why aren't Louis Armstrong or Jellyroll Morton? (Of course, we know why. It's that guitar thing. If Mississippi John played piano, he would be a jazz icon)

                      Mike

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 11:23 AM

While there may have been Barbershop singing in African-American communities in the early twentieth century, it is a mistake to believe that the four part singing originated there. Male quartets were very popular entertainment in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century, and of harmonies and voicings that barbershop music uses, as well as the characteristic chords changes, are pretty solidly derrived from European classical music. Monteverdi's madgrials, written near the beginning of the 17th century, use a lot of the same vocal "theatrics" that are characteristic of Barbershop.

Furthermore, there was a longstanding tradition of informal four part harmony singing that centered mostly in taverns-- Frank Shay's folk song collection, "My Pious Friends and Drunken Companions" commemorate the tradtion, which began to fade with the beginning of the twentieth century and the war, and was dealt a death blow by Prohibition.

African-American musicians and entertainers, have a part of mainstream American entertainment for a long time.   The Minstrel Shows were originally performed by white entertainers, but by the last part of the nineteenth century, blacks dominated them.    I think it's important to remember that most of the black musicians and composers, even in those days, had solid "classical" music training, and they played and wrote the same popular music that everyone else did. Ragtime, jazz, blues, all developed after that time, from those roots--

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: Mike Miller
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 08:52 AM

The Doo Dah parade (from the song, "Zippidy Doo Dah" or, maybe, from the song, "Camptown Races") is held on the exact route as the Tournament of Roses parade.
The Mummers Day parade is one of the oldest, survivng rituals, dating back to ancient Rome. The brigades of string bands started in England and we added the horns, ourselves. Banjo enthusiats come from miles away to experience this all day, mobile extraviganza. Although the costumes used to mimic the 18th century minstral shows, blackface was forbidden years ago and women have been participating for decades. Recent parades have been marred by the rowdy behavior of a few oafs who are, still, celebrating New Year's Eve but it remains an event that all folkies should see. Paul Cadwell, the great classical banjoist who influenced every important 5 string player, from Roger Sprung to Eric Weissberg, came to Philly every New Year's Day to watch the bands go by.

                      Mike