Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge

Subject: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Rob Henderson
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 01:50 PM

I got an email today telling me about a story that a guy had wrote on the internet about Vin Garbutt and Cambridge. He has spoken to both Vin Garbutt and the organisers of Cambridge by the sounds of it.

Vin Garbutt & Cambridge Folk Festival: What's the real story?

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: skipy
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 01:59 PM

I class Vin as a friend & a genious, I have known him for over 30 years, he has played at every venue I have ever run. Friends can & have to differ or we would be clones, there would only one person! We would still be in caves, but to shun him for his views is a sin. It's folk music, anyone / everyone must be allowed to put their views to music.
Skipy

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Rob Henderson
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 02:04 PM

Here Here Skipy, well said

Hope you've visited out Campaign site on this matter :)

Wot! No Vin??

Was that a shameless plug? *looks sheepish*

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Carol
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 02:05 PM

Totally agree Skipy, even though sometimes we don't agree with their views. I wish I had a pound for every song that I'd heard that I didn't agree with/thought had 'gone over the top' - however that doesn't always mean I can't enjoy the song.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 02:15 PM

Vin Garbutt is a top whistle player who gets bookings all over the place.
Why would he want to play an East Anglian popfest that lost the plot when the fire brigade stopped running it?

This weekend's pressing problem is how to get to WOMAD's new location.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Rob Henderson
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 02:22 PM

Wot! No Vin? actually started when we were telling Vin we were going to Cambridge Folk Festival and he said "Cambridge, I'd love to play Cambridge again"

As for WOMAD, you tried the AA route planner?

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 02:34 PM

No. I'm used to just getting off the train at Reading and there it is.
Though Rivermeads is apparently under water at the mo, so that's WOMAD's current justification that is was a Good Idea to move to a location seven miles distant from public transport links.
Vin Garbutt is a nice but misguided bloke who plays the whistle well.
I don't actually care whether or not Cambridge books him.
If they do, I won't be there to risk hearing his anti-abortion ditties.
No, I don't think he's entitled to such a stance.
It's a woman's right to choose, not that of a male Teesside chemical worker.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 02:48 PM

I don't really understand this campaign.

Vin is a very nice bloke who has a huge following. He also has an agent. Surely, its up to Vin and his agent to discuss things with the organiser and any decision taken is between those 3.
Are you sure your campaign doesn't have the adverse effect?

Sorry if I am not supporting the campaign, but I think the above 3 people are grown up enough to make their own decisions.

My only regret was not getting Vin to appear at my club, before it was closed. It wasn't becuase I didn't want him to appear. He was booked, but he became ill, and it just never happened after that.

I am more inclined not to book somebody if I feel I am being pressurised.

Leave them to it guys and gals.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: skipy
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 02:55 PM

Villan, fair comment, the campaign may be capable of doing more harm than good!
Skipy

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 04:57 PM

Don't allow politics to get in the way of your enjoyment

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 04:58 PM

and everyone's entitled to their opinion.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 05:10 PM

Listen to Crazy Man Michael

Click on the link on the right hand side of the webpage to listen to it.

:-)

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Carol
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 05:24 PM

Yes, but surely people who've gone through that sort of experience have more idea of what it's about and unless there's been some sort of 'miracle' I've not heard of a man having a baby yet!

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 05:40 PM

"I am more inclined not to book somebody if I feel I am being pressurised."

I'm not sure I get you here? Are you saying if people want an act on at your venue you try not to put them on?

The Campaign started as a joke to be honest but more and more people started asking me to do stuff untill I had 2 websites made for us, t-shirts printed for us and Pancrack pictures and a guy from the daily Telegraph phoning and emailing me.

Don't get me wrong tho, I do believe in the Campaign,but I have stayed away from talking about it in depth in anything I have said and left it as a campaign to get Vin booked for Cambridge.

If you are a bit confused about it, there seems to be alot written about it on blogs and messages left on the site and various message boards.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 06:04 PM

>>I'm not sure I get you here? Are you saying if people want an act on at your venue you try not to put them on?<<

That depends if it is a campaign or a request.

When people have suggested or requested somebody, I have gone away and done my research. When I was satisfied that the act suited the style of the club, then I would get in touch with the act or agent to see if I could afford them. If I could, i booked them.
I have to say that the variety that appeared at the club was very varied.

However I was never in the league of Cambridge Festival and I have great respect for organisers of festivals. Its their job to decide who they will put on and they stand by their decisions. Cambridge seems pretty succesful to me.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: andrewq
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 06:07 PM

It's the usual "tolerant" story of everyone being allowed to voice their opinions as forthrightly as they wish provided they are deemed acceptable to the clique. A quaint variation on the well-worn folk police theme (secular relativist branch; dangly bits verboten).

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Crazy_Man_Michael (inactive)
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 06:09 PM

"Listen to Crazy Man Michael"

I'm old enough to still possess my original 1969 copy of Liege and Lief...I do have it on CD as well mind you...

and for those who are attending Cambridge...have a REALLY great time :-)

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 06:21 PM

Its just a great song

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 06:35 PM

That link with the alleged real story is down. I didn't realise Vin Garbutt was (if he is) an anti-abortion campaigner.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Emma B
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 06:41 PM

Like quite a few other women there I once walked out of one of Vin's concerts - that was our choice of course. Who wants to be told that they are "murderers" however good the music?

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: skipy
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 06:44 PM

This is one of the threads that "guest" should NOT be allowed to post to!
Skipy

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: andrewq
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 07:08 PM

I don't understand why Vin shouldn't be permitted to occasionally sing a song that some people in the audience may not agree with. He has a sincere religious belief that is important to him and expresses it with conviction and compassion (for all parties).

Things would be pretty dull if we could only hear lyrics expressing sentiments with which we were in 100% agreement. Apparently, it is fine for prominent singers to perform campaigning or social issue songs provided they don't rattle any folky cages. That seems rather cosy. (And here was I thinking that protest song was a fairly impotent genre.)

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 07:47 PM

What the hell is a "pro-abortion organisation" anyway! In all my life I have never met anyone who is pro-abortion. I have met an awful lot of people who think abortion is horrible and traumatic but who support the woman's right to choose what she does with her own body. Diane is perfectly right. No-one is entitled to an anti-abortion stance. And I particularly resent the term "pro-life." I am just as bloody "pro-life" as any anti-abortionist, thank you. And Vin is a very funny feller.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Declan
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 08:15 PM

As much as I firmly disagree with Vin's views on some subjects, I'd dearly love to see him back at Cambridger again. Lets hope this is possible in 2008. If the opening post here is correct there seems to be no particular barrier to Vin's participation next year.

Although I disagree with many of its sentiments, its hard to argue that Little Innocents is not a great song. People are entitled to their opinions, as much as I'm entitled to disagree.

I'm looking forward to seeing Mr Garbut in Sidmouth.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Bugsy
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 10:02 PM

A nice piece of "Arse Covering" by Eddie there.

I hope Vin does get asked back to Cambridge.

Cheers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 10:47 PM

There must be some things that one should not be allowed to say. The question is where the line is to be drawn.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 01:53 AM

Shouldn't the abortion issue be a seperate subject in the BS section as it is a very emotive issue and IMHO not part of this section.

I assume Rob started this thread to talk about Vin being allowed to play at Cambridge, didn't you?

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 03:10 AM

I was starting to get the impression that probably Cambridge asked for an assurance that VG would not do that song, or maybe other songs too, and did not get it so would not book.

I assume we would all agree that Cambridge should not book those two young American girls (I forget their name) who sing racist songs, one of which I think is entitled "Aryan Man", no matter the quality of their performance, wouldn't we?

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: r.padgett
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 03:53 AM

I have never been to Cambridge FF

I have never had a baby

Vin is without question one of UKs finest Folk singers and entertainers

I will be at Warwick FF again one of a number of fine festivals I attend and what I like, dislike, find humorous or tragic is my opinion

Life makes you think and experiences can form and also change your attitudes; isn't this what folk song is all about?

God be with us all and with Vin

Ray

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Rob Henderson
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 03:57 AM

Sorry about posting as GUEST earlier, I simply forgot to put my name in and I can't seem to get on my account that I made.

Everyone seems to be hung on the abortion stance, which I don't really like to comment on. This is because I am and have been confused on the matter for the last 10 years, through past experiences. And also I did not want to upset link any of my views with Vin. It would be hypocritical of me to side with Vin on this matter, but I like listening to his songs about the subject.

Anyway with that over with the Campaign is simply to get Vin back on the bill at Cambridge. The Campaign has done nothing to promote this (apart from post messages on boards), it has simply been a symbol of what people want. What has happened tho is people have used it/me to voice their opinions.

I will be wearing the Tshirts bought for me at Cambridge because I believe Vin should not have his lips clamped on his opinions. Censorship is a good thing in some ways but I think it has no place in this instance. Vin is a passionate singer and to put a muzzle on that I think is very wrong.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: KeithofChester
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:01 AM

Diane, there is supposed to be a coach service from both Victoria and Bristol to WOMAD. Or so it says on their website.

BY COACH
National Express will be providing coach services to the festival site from the following locations:

Route One: London Victoria - Reading - Swindon - WOMAD.
Route Two: Birmingham - Cheltenham - Gloucester - Bristol - WOMAD.

There will be a service running from both routes on Thursday and Friday and returning on Monday morning.

For more details, including prices and how to book, please visit www.nationalexpress.com/womad

Another "Alternative Cambridge", The Acoustic Festival in Nantwich this weekend has just been cancelled, I assume because of waterlogging.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:44 AM

The one thing that people with sincerely held beliefs can't stand, is other people with sincerely held beliefs. Well ones that contradict theirs anyway.
Accept other people's views, and get on with life, you will never get everybody to agree with you, live with it!
G.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: selby
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:46 AM

I like Vin I like nearly all his songs I don't always agree with him but hell thats life, like Ray I vote with my feet the same as a lot of other people. Personaly I do not like a certain type of food but it does not stop my wife or family and friends eating it they respect me I repect them do the same with Vin and get back to the issue

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Colin Randall
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:59 AM

As the author of the article at the root of this discussion, can I just say that what I really wanted to do was get the the bottom of a story that has been rumbling around by word of mouth for years. I have equal respect for the Cambridge festival director (Eddie Barcan) and Vin. Eddie and I first met as fellow judges at BBC Young Folk Awards finals - the Tim Van Eyken year – I have known Vin since I used to book him (for about £3 plus beer money and travel exes from memory) for Bishop Auckland folk club donkeys years ago.
And without ever dreaming of denying Emma B her right to walk out on a song she dislikes, I believe passionately in the freedom of others to write, sing and speak as they wish - the only line I draw, Richard Bridge, appears when someone's words can be judged to be incitement to murder, racial hatred etc (in other words, a criminal offence in any case). Believing in, or not believing in, abortion doesn't come within a million miles of that line. But that's just my opinion.....

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: skipy
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 05:07 AM

Like the taliban?
Skipy

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 05:22 AM

Are they on at Warwick Skipy ?

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: redsnapper
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 05:46 AM

No-one is entitled to an anti-abortion stance.

???

People, including Vin, are perfectly entitled to hold a firmly held moral or ethical view (which I understand in this case is religiously-based). And others are perfectly entitled to hold opposite views and can choose to attend or not to attend his gigs knowing Vin's views. I happen to agree with Paul Metsers environmental views and booked him a couple of times when I ran a club, but some members of the club didn't like them and stayed away. Same thing with Vin at the same club.

RS

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: nutty
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 06:42 AM

I would class Vin's anti-abortion songs on a par with Dick Gaughan's 'Stand Up For Judas', yet I didn't hear an outcry from Christians about that.

It's all a matter of personal belief and an acceptance that not everything in this life is going to please everybody.
If a song upsets a few people -- tough.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 07:01 AM

The author of Stand Up For Judas is Leon Rosselson.

In the notes to A Different Kind Of Love Song upon which he recorded the song, Dick Gaughan writes:

I sang this because I felt it was an argument worthy of being heard. As a result of my recording this, I have been accused of being anti-Christian. Complete nonsense. I am not anti-Christian or anti any other set of beliefs; I do, however, have a profound dislike of intolerant dogmatism masquerading as truth and I believe that any body of ideas which objects to examination and discussion of its tenets, and responds to such by demonizing the questioner, is not one which I can take seriously.

It is about interpretations and distortions of Christianity: what has been done in its name and a contrast between whether you are prepared to await a 'reward' in heaven (turning other cheek-ism) or whether you will stand up for a perfect world now.

To tell women that they must conform to oppression and acquiesce to lack of control over their own bodies because it is some god's will (and suits some men) is a negation of a basic human right of over 50% of the human race.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: KeithofChester
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 07:25 AM

Indeed. As Bob Dylan wrote

In a many dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ
Was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.

IMO the Jesus story isn't nearly so powerfull without the Judas character in it.

I think you can appreciate a performer as a whole without having to agree with 100% of what they write. Otherwise your listening pleasure gets rather restricted. I don't have problems with people holding and speaking or singing about their own deeply held beliefs that are different than mine, until they tell me to shut up about mine because mine might offend them. Then my ability to listen to them diminishes dramatically, often towards zero.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 07:32 AM

"To tell women that they must conform to oppression and acquiesce to lack of control over their own bodies because it is some god's will (and suits some men) is a negation of a basic human right of over 50% of the human race."

Agreed Diane, but why the wee man hating bit in brackets? This what I mean when I say emotive language doesn't solve anything it only entrenches viewpoints.
It also suits some women, but that doesn't get mentioned very often, so it's best to be non sexist, then no unnecessary resentment is caused.

Giok

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 07:45 AM

It is generally men who provide the repression. That's why it fits in that sentence. Think popes for example, and the odd American president. It is perfectly appropriate to single out men in this context. Diane's sentence is just about as un-emotive a summary of why opposition to abortion is just plain immoral as you'll ever read.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 07:47 AM

It's not a 'man-hating bit'.
It is a fact that some but by no means all men hold this view. It's a power thing.
It does not, on the other hand, 'suit' any woman to be disempowered and thus prevented from deciding which is the best course in her personal circumstances.
Nothing 'emotive' about it.
Nor is it a new concept.
Women's lack of choice and control has been a feature of popular song for a very long time and will doubtless continue to be so for the forseeable future.
I would oppose only the dissemination of those songs which seek to impose a discriminatory pressure and reduce a woman's right to choose, not to have the subject not being addressed at all.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: nutty
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 07:54 AM

Thanks for the correction Diane. Unfortunately, I hadn't checked authorship of 'Stand Up For Judas' which I consider to be such a brave and profound song for questioning established beliefs.

Conversely, I find it amazing that Vin is still, after all these years, being pilloried for writing about a belief held by millions of people.

I have known Vin for years and have yet to meet a kinder, more considerate and more honest person. He is in no way anti women.

I do not agree with him in with regard abortion but I respect him for being sincere in his beliefs.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 07:55 AM

I'm sure that I would oppose the dissemination of some songs that did not seek to impose a discriminatory pressure nor reduce a woman's right to choose - but apart from that rare opportunity to have a pop at your grammar, Diane, I entirely agree.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 08:01 AM

This thread is about what is supposed to be the real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge, not about who is right or wrong concerning abortion and womens rights (that is IMHO for the BS section and for what its worth I support womens rights).

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 08:05 AM

So do I, that's why I don't like being lumped in with those who don't.
G

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 08:23 AM

Any song that highlights abortion in such a way as to increase opposition to it is a yet another blow against the rights of women, no matter how nice the chap who's singing it or how sweetly-emotional the approach of the lyrics (the inclusion of the word "innocents" alone is more than enough to betray their tendentious character).   He is severely misguided if he thinks it's a suitable song topic for a general audience. So, if it were me, I'd ask him just to avoid singing it.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 08:29 AM

Why is it so vital to get Vin Garbutt to Cambridge ' pop ' festival anyway ?

eric

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 08:50 AM

I don't like my second-last sentence there.   Anything could be a good song topic. It's the approach to the topic that's misguided.