John Brune FolkSong collector

Subject: RE: John Brune FolkSong collector
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 18 Nov 18 - 06:59 AM

Hopefully this is the link:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CSvaNmjqib3mnyiz1hX2874GXSyJu_AR/view?usp=sharing

Subject: RE: John Brune FolkSong collector
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 18 - 07:45 AM

The 'Traveling People' story was first told to me as one of the old-usual anti MacColl yarns by one of the old usuals
I checked with both Ewan and Charles Parker, who confirmed it independently
Sheila Stewart had been given one of the songs to learn (there were four) and when the ruse was discovered she was edited out
As all are now dead, I suppose that people will believe what suits them, which has always been the case with MacColl anyway

I've always believed that had Ewan behaved a fraction as badly as his detractors did (and still do, thirty plus years after his death), he would have deserved all the shit that was thrown at him, and much, much more
As it is, this necrophobic hatred for someone whose contribution to traditional music is immeasurable has prevented a serious examination of the most detailed body of work on the art of traditional singing - all accessible for the using
These stories - the fake songs, the war record, the change of name - (even the box of garden slugs).... measure small to the research and experimentation instigated by Ewan and the Critics Group
Hopefully future enthusiasts will have a little more sense and fwer agendas
Happily, I'm finding far more enthusiasm for this body of work in Ireland than I ever did in the U.K.
That's also the case in finding a home for our somewhat large sound archive
A lesson to be learned - surely?
Time for people to lay down their axes and let the dead lie in peace (at least), even if they have no interest in the contribution they made
Jim

Subject: RE: John Brune FolkSong collector
From: GUEST,Hootennanny
Date: 18 Nov 18 - 10:55 AM

Oh dear, here we go again.

Subject: RE: John Brune FolkSong collector
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 18 - 11:15 AM

You people started it Hoot
I've never had any problem discussing MacColl outside the context of the Urban Legends surrounding him
As the beauty ads should have said - because the music's worth it
Bout time some people got rid of their hang-ups and started concentrating on that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: John Brune FolkSong collector
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 18 - 02:56 PM

I have just listened and am amazed anybody could be fooled. Jim i have no heroes other than people like ted poole [who ran a folk club for over 50 years] and john taylor who ran folk clubs and festivals for 50 plus years these people are heroes they involve their local community with folk music. Ewan has left us many fine songs.

Subject: RE: John Brune FolkSong collector
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 18 - 03:15 PM

Not sure what you are saying Dick, but I am sure the ling has nothing to do with what either Ewan or Charles described

Your constant patronising praise of Ewan's songs when his name comes up indicatesd yo believe his only contribution was as a songwriter
On teh contrary - Ewan and Peggy took time out to work with others to help improve the scene - while the superstars, may of whom snided and knocked them and got on with their on careers   
That work still stands and is unique - I can't think of anybody else who covered it,

I more or less gave up on the English scene when 'The Old Rustic Bridge by the Mill' got a Roud number
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: John Brune FolkSong collector
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 18 - 03:48 PM

you are a silly billy, my praise of Ewan as a song writer is not patronising it is genuine,
I believe his other contributions such as the radio ballads are excellent and as part of a duo with peggy they gave very good performances, please stop tis pueile defensiveness and paranoid behaviour
everybodys work is unique, that is what the word unique means
unique
/ju?'ni?k/
adjective
adjective: unique

    1.
    being the only one of its kind; unlike anything else.

Subject: RE: John Brune FolkSong collector
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 18 Nov 18 - 04:09 PM

My role in this discussion was simply to post the message from my friend Steve Roud. I didn't expect, and I am sure neither did Steve, that it would simply spark another sniping conversation between Jim and Dick. I can't speak for Steve, but i guess his posting was to explain and identify the story of that bogus recording. Thanks to Steve for that. No matter the reasons for the hoodwinking, good, bad, or whatever, here are the (apparent) facts. Thanks Steve for taking the trouble to let us all know.

Derek

Subject: RE: John Brune FolkSong collector
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 18 - 04:17 PM

no sniping on my part, a reply to jim
Subject: RE: John Brune FolkSong collector
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 01:44 PM

Cap'n
So what, sabotage is sabotage.
I have to say, what with Kennedy and Brune, you have some strange heroes.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: John Brune FolkSong collector
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 18 - 02:57 AM

I replied to Dick - no more - as far as I am concerned
Most of my contribution here is on the Brunbe affair, to which there has been no response
I didn't expect there to be
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: John Brune FolkSong collector
From: nigelgatherer
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 02:21 AM

No PUBLIC response perhaps, Jim, but like many others, I'm sure, I have been enthralled by your contributions and the contributions of others about this topic, these people, these times. We don't know the reason for the conflicts - and probably don't need it explained here - but it's wonderful and extremely valuable to hear stories from people who knew the people involved and were actually there.

Subject: RE: John Brune FolkSong collector
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 03:03 AM

Thank you Nigel
I feel that the work and ideas of many of the pioneers who helped give us so much pleasure and knowledge has been lost unnecessary in the changes that have taken place (some recent ones disturb me greatly)
An entire body of work (including your own on Dundee songs) have added immensely to to my personal pleasure and understanding of our song traditions and I feel that, rather than the 'go with the flow' approach that has been adopted, we really need to take stock of past work rather than seek out new new clothes.
This means we need to know where we went wrong, as well as what we got right - and as you touch upon, why?      
Best wishes
Jim

Subject: RE: John Brune FolkSong collector
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 05:30 AM

Reg Hall is still around but I don't recall hm ever posting here. Would he like to contribute something?

I acquired a copy of the 1965 Roving Songster recently. Might have a closer look at its version of The Twa Corbies.

Subject: RE: John Brune FolkSong collector
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Nov 19 - 09:21 PM

There was no suggestion that all the songs in the Travelling People or any of the Radio Ballads were traditional, or originated from the people whose story the programmes were about. I can't see why it would have made much difference if a song by John Brune had been in there alongside those by Ewan MacColl.

Of course it must have been embarrassing for Ewan to have been taken in by John's mischief, after evidently obliging Sheila Stewart to learn it and sing it.

Subject: RE: John Brune FolkSong collector
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Nov 19 - 09:21 PM

There was no suggestion that all the songs in the Travelling People or any of the Radio Ballads were traditional, or originated from the people whose story the programmes were about. I can't see why it would have made much difference if a song by John Brune had been in there alongside those by Ewan MacColl.

Of course it must have been embarrassing for Ewan to have been taken in by John's mischief, after evidently obliging Sheila Stewart to learn it and sing it.

Subject: RE: John Brune FolkSong collector
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Nov 19 - 02:54 AM

I still think it was amusing

Subject: RE: John Brune FolkSong collector
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 11:10 AM

One item in The Roving Songster that might be of interest is the version of "Queen Among the Heather" as sung by Belle Stewart. It's a bit different from the version in MacColl and Seeger's Till Doomsday in the Afternoon. Since Brune knew Stewart before they did, I'd guess it reflects the way she sang it when younger and less in the public eye? I don't see that later one in the Digitrad, is it there? If not I could post both side by side.

Subject: RE: John Brune FolkSong collector
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 05:20 PM

that is a good idea jack

Subject: RE: John Brune FolkSong collector
From: GUEST,Wm
Date: 28 Mar 24 - 08:58 PM

Does anyone know anything about the song O Mick MacGregor, which John Brune sang for Hamish Henderson in 1958?