Appealing to the 'young people'

Subject: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: the button
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 01:45 PM

OK, so this is a bit of a spin-off from the Sidmouth thread, but I thought I'd start a new one.

There seems to be an assumption (from some at least) that, in order to appeal to a younger audience, you have to book a certain kind of artist. Speaking for myself, having been listening to the stuff since I was in my early teens, the music that had the most visceral impact on me early on -- and made me want to hear more -- was The Watersons. Who are hardly a crossover act. ;)

This, of course, was back in the olden days, when local libraries had decent traditional music sections, so I could borrow three LPs a week for nowt. I was also very lucky growing up in Beverley, which was not exactly the hardest place to hear great musicians for cheap (as well as offering plenty of early underage drinking opportunities).

If anything would have turned me off -- and it continues to do so -- it's a curatorial, po-faced attitude to the music. For instance, I went to a concert the other week of 16th century consort music -- basically, dance tunes of yesteryear. And a lot of it was good foot-tapping stuff, and the musicians certainly appeared to be having a good time playing it. But the audience? Blimey.

The stuff that I liked -- and continue to like -- is the stuff that hit me in the gut, and stayed there.

Fans & performers of traditional music & song are almost one-offs and non-conformists by definition -- so why assume that they're sortable into an homogeneous block, sorted by factors like age?

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 01:53 PM

Hit me in the gut - yup, Watersons, YT, Songwainers, more recently Witches of Elswick....

Kitty

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 01:57 PM

There is (IMHO) still nothing to compare to the Young Tradition.

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 02:05 PM

Want to know what young people want? Ask 'em.

We did a focus group at Sidmouth for 18 - 30 year olds. Lots of interesting ideas around ticketing options, but not a lot of interest in the big mainstage headliners. There were thoughts on the dance events at the Bulverton and ways of making those more popular, and a reinforcement of support for booking bands like Trinculo, Hekety and the Glorystrokes.

Funnily enough, not one of them asked for Seth Lakeman.

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: RTim
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 02:10 PM

My two children (Cat & Mikey) - now 30 & 28, have been to Sidmouth EVERY year of their lives, except one - when I made them come to Pinewoods Camp in the USA for family week. I have not been myself since 1996!

They write in the date of the next year before the current year is over - they would not dream of missing it, it is part of who they are and what they do - Sidmouth gets you like that.
And I doubt they watched Seth Lakeman, EVER! - but I don't really know.
Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 02:15 PM

Trinculo, Hekety and Glorystrokes??

Was this Nige's own take-away fan club??

Trinculo
Hekety
Glorystrokes


Mind you, he IS a lovely bloke!!

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 02:27 PM

Well, they're popular bands! With, er, one or two members in common...it's all about Sheffield, dontcha know...

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: the button
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 02:34 PM

There's also the issue of consolidating younger people's interest in the music by clubs being welcoming. Most of the people I met at the old Nellies in Beverley were fine with the young whippersnapper me, and some of them became lifelong friends (RIP Steve Snowden -- a lovely man, who became a friend of the family).

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 02:47 PM

Why the obsession with appealing to the young? When I was young I liked all sorts of music and seeing as I was 16 in 1969 I had an awful lot of stuff to explore. And a lot of awful stuff;-) I settled on a few favourite bands - Hendix experience. Cream. The Who. Jethro Tull. I still like them now. I discovered 'folk' at the same time and would happily have 'My Generation' playing next to the Spinners rendition of 'In my Liverpool home' on the old Dansette major.

My kids, now aged between 22 and 31, liked all sorts of stuff. Two moved from Goth to Trad without me even seeing the transition. The eldest plays guitar very well indeed and the youngest plays both whistle and concertina better than me. Not that that takes much doing!

OK - So we need new blood to keep the tradition going but why do something out of the ordinary? If it is good music people, of all ages, will like it. OK, maybe we need to do something about the attitude of a few traditionalists who would see a 16 year old in their club as the first step to Revolution. In the main young people will find their own level and well meaning old fuddy-duddies will neither stop nor encourage them.

The young have enough to worry about already with exams, hormones and peer pressure. Don't try to sway them with gimicky ideas. Lets just make sure that the music we present is of the best quality and that we do not put ANYONE off with a 'good enough for folk' attitude.

Just my opinion of course (But I know I'm right;-) )

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: the button
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 02:51 PM

I pretty much agree with Dave, except I'm a bit more diplomatic. An adult is just as likely to be turned off by a bunch of cliquey arseholes in a club as a "young person", after all.

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: Bob TB
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 02:52 PM

Young people may well like the traditional stuff, Watersons and so on, if only you could get them to hear it in the first place. You do that by booking Seth Lakeman and the like to pull them in. This is what the Bulverton was originally all about and it was starting to work - the yougsters were starting to drift in to the more traditional events. As Lynne pointed out a proportion of those Bulverton Kids are still coming.

If we don't book artists that have youth appeal traditional music will die with our generation. Yeah, some will find folk music anyway but not enough. Apart from an accident of flat sharing I came to folk through Steeleye and Fairport. I wouldn't have gone straight into Bert Lloyd or even Peter Bellamy.   

It's interesting that many of the younger artists are second generation folkies - Seth Lakeman, Andy Cutting, Saul Rose, Eliza Carthy, Barnaby Stradling, Sam Thomas... (Not that they are so young any more!).

We need to spread the net wider - and the way to do that is by booking bands with youth appeal.

BTW - I left Seth Lakeman early last year. Not for me. And in the wrong venue.


Bob

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 02:55 PM

...traditional music will die with our generation

People have been saying that since at least the 60s that I know of. Any music, if good enough, will survive. The shity stuff deserves to die anyway.

D.

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: the button
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 02:58 PM

I know what you mean, but what's this "youth appeal" of which you speak? Look at the massive range of musical genres and sub-genres that there are about -- people who are into jungle don't necessarily like drum'n'bass, for instance, even though (to my elderly ears at least) they sound virtually identical.

If there is such a thing as "youth appeal," maybe it's to do with the way that festivals & clubs are organised, rather than thinking, "The young 'uns'll love this -- he's got a drum machine & everything."

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: mattkeen
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 03:13 PM

I think its about quality not age


Older generation do ourselves no favours by keeping on referring to how young the young musicians are!

Actually they are about the same age Martin Carthy, the Watersons etc etc were when they started.

I don't care about age one way or the other.

Book great acts, praise great perfomances and be enthusiastic

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: steve_harris
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 03:13 PM

Want to know what young people want? Ask 'em.

For even more accurate "data", watch what they do

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: mattkeen
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 03:19 PM

For the record favourite performances at Sidmouth were

van Eyken

devils interval

whalley and fletcher

yves lambert

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: Bob TB
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 03:33 PM

Dave, you quite right. Slight troll tendency there, or let's call it playing devil's advocate. Wasn't it the demise of traditional song that inspired Cecil Sharpe?

"maybe it's to do with the way that festivals & clubs are organised" I think so. Where we really need young people is behind the scenes. IS there anyone under 50 actually running clubs and festivals?

Bob

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: treewind
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 03:36 PM

"Fans & performers of traditional music & song are almost one-offs and non-conformists by definition -- so why assume that they're sortable into an homogeneous block, sorted by factors like age?"

I think you nailed it right there in your first post.

The last think young folkies want is to be "appealed to" by middle aged folk organisers. Certainly not if there is the slightest hint of being patronized. They want it to be their own thing. That's why it's hard to get them into folk clubs, but yet they are starting their own clubs. (and the same with morris teams)

It does take a few high profile folk/pop celebrities to arouse initial interest - in the 60's it was the folk-rock bands or Bob Dylan, but those who got that positive gut reaction to folk music soon wanted to get behind the pop image and find the roots of the music.

There's also a generation skip effect. When I was at that stage (mid 1970's) I was interested in
(a) the "good old boys" who were the last living remnants of a nearly-lost tradition and interesting because they were different, and
(b) people around my age, for the usual peer group reasons. There was a middle age group that didn't appeal because they seemed too derivative, too familiar, and maybe too much like our parents.

I must say I have been astonished at the talent and enthusiasm of some young folkies I have met recently and it's hugely refreshing to know they like our music.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: treewind
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 03:47 PM

"IS there anyone under 50 actually running clubs and festivals? "
You'd better believe it - they certainly are, or they're running large parts of existing events!

Sam Lee has his "Magpie's Nest" club in Islington, and in Suffolk recently there was Spanfest at Long Melford, where the second, so-called "acoustic" stage was very capably run by Otis Luxton (in his early 20's I'd guess). Jim Moray was allegedly planning to start and run a club of some sort though I don't know where or if it's happened yet, Laurel Swift has been doing her "shooting roots" thing for years, and that's just the few I know about...

Anahata

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: the button
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 03:55 PM

I've recorded some internet radio shows in recent months (me & a guitar, or me unaccompanied -- the young people aren't ready for my box playing yet. Heh), and been quite pleased with the feedback I've got from listeners. Most (OK, all) of the other content on there is either jungle/drum'n'bass or the more way-out corner of dance music/electronica.

I think my favourite bit of feedback was someone who remarked how intimate it sounded.

Now, I very much doubt that anyone who's listened to it will be growing a beard and going out to buy a jumper. But... there's so much free music on the internet that a quick google of the song titles would bring up loads of versions by people who can actually sing/play their instruments that it's a way of listening to new music for nowt.

Thing is, no-one can know the impact that a piece of music is going to have on another person -- maybe not immediately, but sometimes years down the line. Even if you're not really that good. ;)

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 03:57 PM

"If there is such a thing as "youth appeal," maybe it's to do with the way that festivals & clubs are organised, rather than thinking, "The young 'uns'll love this -- he's got a drum machine & everything."

- I think that's spot on. That's clearly the key to the young ceilidh movement - ceilidh societies at universities, run by young people, have had a huge impact (and may partly explain why there is some indifference to concerts, but enthusiasm for dance, in the younger generation).

And Anahata's right: Sam Lee's club in London is lovely. If we could simply clone Sam and get all the Mini-Sams to start up clubs around the country, the whole folk club network would be revitalised.

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: Lizabee
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 06:00 PM

These Threads always make me laugh!
I'm 26, but "youth appeal" makes me want to shudder.

I have many wonderful friends ranging in age from their early 20s to their mid 60s and guess what we all like the same sort of music. ok theres a spectrum cos we're each unique inderviduals, but our ages doen't pin us to any particular point on that spectrum.
I'm a bit of a die hard traditionalist myself & hate nothing more than over amplifed music, and unnecessary bass boom.
I'm a person. I like folk music. The fact that I'm young is irrelevant. Trying to predict human reactions is folly.

Lizabee

PS - The's nothing wrong with a good beard be it on a 53 yr old or a 23 yr old. Oh and I find jumpers very useful for keeping warm, especially with this years elusive summer!

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 06:37 PM

QUOTE: PS - The's nothing wrong with a good beard be it on a 53 yr old or a 23 yr old

How about on a 43 year old?

I kind of know where the Button is coming from on this, but I'm not too worried because I don't think folk is particularly about 'youth culture' or about 'oldies culture'. As a non-musician, I listen to a bit of Irish folk, Billy Bragg, The Men They Couldn't Hand etc etc in the mid 80s and then left folk music alone for years until I got back into it via, of all things, the Wicker Man soundtrack, folky psychedelia and folk rock. I was around 40 when this happened. I suspect I'm not alone. I'd always said I would start buying classical music at 40. I never knew I wouldn't be able to afford it because I was spending all my pocket money on folk! I also never thought I'd get the same rush off a well played concertina as I did off first hearing the Velvet Underground...

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 06:45 PM

The point I'm trying to make is that if it's good it will sustain. Which is more-or-less what Dave P said earlier. However, I'm with Diane Easby, though, in my disgust at the prevalence of 'just good enough' mediocrity in the folk world (speaking, in my case, as an outsider). This isn't just about music. It's about presentation and the whole works. I've lost count of the number of times I've bought a great album in a sleeve so shite that if I was browsing the racks I'd bypass it on principle, assuming - wrongly, as it happens - that if so little attention had been paid to the packaging, the same must be true of the contents.

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: the button
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 07:00 PM

I know what you mean about the packaging. I mean,

1) What's the point of that banana? and
2) Andy Warhol doesn't appear on the album, ffs.

;)

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 09:48 PM

Well, it's 2:30am and I am in work. I had only been in bed an hour when some silly sod rang me to get me to come in! You would think they would be happy paying my callout fee without ever calling me wouldn't you...:-) Anyway - I just need to monitor things for another half hour to make sure the 'puters don't fall over again so I caught up here.

Nice to see that there is at least one 'youngster' who confirms we need nowt special - Thanks Lizabee. Thanks to the others who seem to be supporting my theory that if it is good music it will bridge the age differences and last a long time anyway:-) Agreeing more and more with Diane, and now Nigel, about the prevalance of 'good enough' stuff. It isn't good enough for public consumption!

I think there ARE points we need to address - If we only have slick and professional venues, gigs and artists where are the poor buggers (like me!), who will NEVER be good enough for a proper audience, go to enjoy ourselves? My cousins niece from the USA, following a visit to our folk club singers night, said it was really good to see somewhere where middle aged men can go to enjoy themselves:-) Maybe that's the trick! It's not a folk club - It's a failed musicians help group:-) Mind you - at least I am honest at our singers nights - Whenever anyone new comes in I tell them straight that they may be in for a couple of surprises - Some pleasant and some not so...

The other point is the 'po faced audience' concept. I know exactly what people are saying with that but, at times, people do need to be serious about listening to music they enjoy. I can't see anyone laughing and joking while a Childe murder ballad or a Leonard Cohen wrist slasher is being sung. And if someone starts to hold a mobile phone conversation during a Martin Carthy guitar solo I will throw them out myself!

Anywho. Nothing has died yet so I guess I can get back to the land of nod. See you tomorrow.

D.

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: the button
Date: 17 Aug 07 - 03:01 AM

Blimey. I've never been to Sidmouth, so I didn't realise it was a cross between a Masonic ritual & Nuremberg. Heh.

Seriously, if that stuff about "hatred & animosity" is true, then we're in schtuck. I've never experienced it myself -- the closest I got was some folk club regular who was (I strongly suspect) a bit sniffish about some 14 year old kid turning up playing the same instrument as he did, when he'd been the only one. Even though I was shite. And possibly "Garageland" by The Clash wasn't the best choice of material for an early floorspot. Not played on the melodeon, anyway. :-)

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 17 Aug 07 - 03:20 AM

Can't see anything wrong with doing Garageland on the melodeon.
Simon Ritchie's done Anarchy In The UK.

As a previously young person I was told by an old person that I'd got some words 'wrong'.
I just said I'd got them from a book.
This was true but what I didn't know was that I was actually doing a version of Child #1 but thought I'd made an original discovery.
Now I just tell 'old people' that I've made the words up, having forgotten what they actually are.
Young performers nowadays are brave enough to tell 'old people' that they've made words (and tunes) up because they make more sense than what they've found.
They know, generally, exactly where they've come from.
More than I did, anyway, and that's a Good Thing.

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: folk_radio_uk
Date: 17 Aug 07 - 04:07 AM

I've had a lot of positive comments on the music I play on Folk Radio UK from young people and I'm in my thirties. What's nice is they tend to go for the Traditional stuff. Playing Spiers and Boden got a very exciting response from a few 17-19 year olds. I play a wide range of Celtic and British Folk and based on comments etc. I'd say that there's a growing number of "younger people" getting into Trad Folk, but hasn't that always been the case?

A lot of Contemp/Alt-folk groups like some of the artists on the Fence Collective take their inspiration from Trad Folk like the Watersons etc. In fact James Yorkston raved about Norma Waterson in one interview as being a major influence on his work.

Also, at the Two Rivers Festival I noticed there was a lot of young people in the Border Morris groups as well.

I don't think there is problem "attracting" young people to this music and they are quite capable of finding that music.

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: GUEST,*Laura*
Date: 17 Aug 07 - 04:32 AM

This year's sidmouth I finally managed to drag a friend down for thursday... (19, same as me). said friend is of the heels-wearing, obsessed-with-orlando-bloom, won't-be-seen-in-public-with-no-makeup, poppy rock music variety...
I had her dancing like a loon with me going "I love folk music!!! It's so fun!"
She's working on the cd stall with me next year now.

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: The Barden of England
Date: 17 Aug 07 - 04:38 AM

Nice one GUEST,*Laura* - people do find the music in so many different ways.
I'm young too, that is in my head I'm 19. Trouble is it's stuck in this 62 year old body!! Age is irrelevant I believe, we're not all Victor Meldrew.
John Barden

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Aug 07 - 04:44 AM

Anarchy in the UK... I love those old traditional ones. I don't think we'll be singing these new ones in 30 years time, and playing them on our melodicas. theres no tune to 'em, you see.... not like in our day.

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: the button
Date: 17 Aug 07 - 04:50 AM

That's right... you could go for a good night out, have something to eat, taxi home, and still have change from £150.

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Aug 07 - 05:08 AM

Some Molly sides seem to be quite young - perhaps they like the barely covert violence of it (which some of the older sides seem to have forgotten)?

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: Grab
Date: 17 Aug 07 - 06:52 AM

TB, I know what you mean with the "po-faced audience" thing. I think that's a real problem. Sure, songs are designed to be listened to by a seated audience - but dance music is designed to be danced to! The modern "all-seater" concert is a PITA for that.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Appealing to the 'young people'
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Aug 07 - 02:05 AM

So you wouldn't throw a toddler out for dancing along in a concert then would you? Especially if you were famous for making a TV series teaching English traditional dance to children? (I don't care if it was 9 years ago, it was rude and it still rankles and I wish I'd thought of asking the rest of the audience if they minded. If an experienced, professional artist can't block out the activities of one enthusiastic toddler, then he can't be that professional!).

That toddler is now 11 and listens (or at least, is in the room when it's playing) to all kinds of music. Her MP3 has an eclectic selection of folk, rock, heavy metal, pop and crap on it, and she loves ceilidh dancing (despite her early traumatic experience - she cried to go back in). She'll be with me again at Towersey this year although I probably won't see much of her... she's turning into a dance freak! She's never heard of Seth Lakeman (whose appeal I suspect is more for women of a certain age...) and isn't particularly fussed about seeing him.

Besides - in these days of playstation and Nintendo, I'm perfectly happy that youngsters get up and excercise, get their blood pumping and their limbs moving. Heaven knows there's plenty of time for lying down when you're dead!

LTS