Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)

Subject: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: bbc
Date: 23 Apr 99 - 10:49 PM

In a way, this is a follow-up to Alice's 4-23 post on the Songs for Colorado Victims thread. I wonder if any of you are having this same experience? Last night, I received a call from the psychologist at my 8th grade son's school. It seems that his best friend has been singled-out of a school body of approx. 1,000 as the potentially most dangerous young person--Colorado-style. My son, by association, is also suspect. His friend was called into the office on Thursday & told that he could not return to school until he had had a psychiatric evaluation. Today, his mom was told that he was being expelled & that he should complete the year in a special ed setting or w/ a home tutor. Although this young man comes from a difficult family setting & has had some problems in the past, he had done nothing to provoke this attack. The worst that can be said about my son is that he doesn't blend in w/ the crowd. He was the kid nobody liked in class in elementary school. In the past couple of years, he has made a few friends & seems to be doing better, but he still hasn't really grown into who he will be. He doesn't work as hard, academically, as I would like, but his behavior record is spotless. Nonetheless, he was called to the principal's office today & questioned by her & by the school psychologist, as to whether he has access to a rifle (NO!) & whether he had desire/intent to kill his classmates. Evidentally, what led to this was several students, in the past 2 days, going to the principal, guidance office, & school psychologist expressing *concerns* about my son & his friend. We suspect that someone started a spiteful rumor & fear gave it momentum. I grilled both boys & both say that they neither did nor said anything to precipitate such fears. This is a scary business! I do not feel my son's friend is being treated fairly &, quite likely, not even legally. I have instructed my son that I should be called if he is asked to answer any more questions. This is starting to feel a lot like harassment to me! Where is the line between caution & a witch hunt? I thought that "innocent until proven guilty" was supposed to be the rule in my country!

bbc

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Tucker
Date: 23 Apr 99 - 11:39 PM

Dear BBC, remember a few years back when everyone was on a witch hunt for Satanist. Sorry to tell you this Dear but look for the same thing to happen again. We seem to do that here. I've been through it all, the Feingold Diet, ADD, Bi Polar. We need to take precautions about terror, don't get me wrong but look for it to go to extremes. There will be calls for "gun control"(20,000 laws on the books now)", kids who dress different will be chastised, all manner of hysteria. Please don't get me wrong. Columbine is a tragedy and my heart goes to all the victims. It was the folly of insane young men but a folly we shall all pay for. Wish I could give you re-assurance but it will get worse before it gets better. I am sure Jerry Springer and Ricky Lake are already beating the bushes for nazi/skin head types to fill their gladiator tv slots. By and By, I don't think there's a thing wrong with owning a rifle so long as it's never pointed at anyone. I own several and I don't kill other people. Best of Luck

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Apr 99 - 11:41 PM

My brother substituted at a high school here, today. One hour was spent on discussing the Colorado massacre and the kids' feelings. He had to write down their biggest concerns and turn the paper into the office. Most kids said what the admin. will do to placate the parents and public will basically be a lot of posturing and strutting around. I would assume, doing the same kinds of things you describe, bbc, banning black clothing, calling children in for interrogation etc. to "prove" they are doing something.

The really frightening thing the kids expressed to him was that is ALL they perceive the admin doing, because they don't believe the adults give a damn about their safety.

I am sorry to say, it sounds as though your son and his friend may be being used as scapegoats to assuage people's fears and make it look as though they are taking effective preventative measures. People in a frenzy DO demand action and those they put in power are mad to rush to and give it to them, so that they can stay in their cushy positions of so-called control.

Jeez, does anybody else want the soapbox? I feel like I've been hogging it this week! Sorry!

katlaughing

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Railroad Bill
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 12:12 AM

gonna get me a gun long as my arm shoot everybody's done me any harm ride old railroad bill

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Arkie
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 12:37 AM

Another consideration is how the kids in the mainstream treat kids that are a little different. Kids seem to reflect the same level of intolerance they find in their parents. If the school administrators aim their response at only kids who are different, they may contribute to the problem, rather than help.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: gargoyle
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 12:46 AM

The media has been attempting investigate "every orifice" of the Littleton campus except for the one that spawned the carnage from Hell.....ie. the campus/district administration.

Murders are common occurance in some places...and not in others....

Over the past quarter century it has been my unpleasant experience to be associated with a educational site associated with multiple murders/suicides. In EVERY instance the "enfranchisement of children" and the "undermining of parenti locus (sic)" have directly created the environment which fostered the carnage.

Look to the administration which permited the situation to develop.

While it "could happen anywhere..." the reality is that IT DOESN"T and there are certain policies which encourage growth and revitalization and there are others which foster mold and decay.

Something was ROTTEN on that campus a long time before the incident....and the rot began at the administrative TOP!!

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 01:05 AM

I wonder if the parents of the "trench coat" kids, knowing what they do now, wish they had been contacted by the school about their kids' behaviour? It appears that a number of the students had concerns about the group. I'm sure the parents would have been angry, and some might have felt humiliated, but perhaps many lives could have been saved.

This action towards your son's friend bbc, has been a painful process, and up til now I would probably have agreed completely with you, but something in me has changed this week. If ever the time to give up some personal freedoms has come it is now. If a school became concerned about children of mine (for whatever reason) I would want them to follow through, even if hard (and seemingly unfair) questions were asked. If the concerns were the result of children's spiteful rumours, then I would expect an apology AFTER the situation had been explored. I think many educators today turn their backs on problems precisely because they fear automatic litigation.

I have come to the conclusion this week that I would do virtually anything that might help prevent more children being put in physical danger. Even if it hurts me personally.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Alice
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 01:30 AM

This is psycho-babble, and they are going to make more kids suffer over it: here's the profile... intelligent, teased by the other students, loners or only a few friends... how many of you fit this profile in your childhood? I did.

I discovered that is what the checklist is that school administrators are using to target the "problem" kids. I had a call out of the blue by a school aide last October because my son had been teased alot and had gotten emotional in class. (He was frustrated and on the verge of tears, trying to hold it in until he could get home.) Without knowing anything about my son, she started asking how many friends he had, and saying they were "worried" and thought he should be in an anger management group. Huh? They had no idea who he was or what was really going on with him. This is 6th grade, when all the kids from the small neighborhood schools begin going to a large complex that includes 6 to 12th grade. His friends from 5th grade were on another floor of the school in other classes. He was making new friends. I told her about a rumor that had been started about him being a girl's boyfriend and then breaking up with her (this was her fantasy, he is too young to be a boyfriend, and he told her that). The school aide said, oh, well we are worried about him cause the girls say they are afraid of him... this was part of the rumor.

bbc, I could go on with the details, but it took two calls with this aide telling her that he wasn't an angry kid, and to talk to the man that was his 2nd and 5th grade teacher, who knew him well. It took her quite awhile before she finally called this teacher and talked to him. I had to confront her about the stereotypes they were using and the fact that they really didn't know him, but were making judgements based on misinformation.

After his collar bone was fractured, I taught him at home for a month, then sent him back to school. For a month he spent his lunch time in the office and library so he wouldn't be jostled in the playground or cafeteria. The administration and secretary finally got to know him. He would tell me he liked to eat lunch there because he liked the secretary, and that she was funny. Well, I hope now they know my son and won't be judging him by their checklist of the "problem profile".

You are going to have to confront this stereotyping of your son and I hope you have some of his previous teachers, or some friends and relatives to back you up. Unfortunately, I found that they will put you on the defensive, because they are justifying their jobs by targeting kids who fit their "profile".

alice

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Alice
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 01:45 AM

Rick, you make a good point that people need to watch out for warning signs. I was writing my post while you posted yours.

What I have seen is the mistake of targeting kids who aren't a problem, and letting the dangerous kids slip by. It was just two months after they were speculating about my son (without any real reason) that he was injured by this other student, who had a long history of starting fist fights and ambushing other kids. I think the problem is that they are trying to hold up a template, thinking that will find the potentially dangerous kids, when really the problem is much more complex and deeper than what they are seeing. It takes time to really listen and observe and get to know kids to understand them. The kid who injured my son isn't really an outcast, but he is recognized by the other students as someone who is mean and dangerous. Personally, I think the administration turns a blind eye to that situation because they don't want to mess with his parents.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: BK
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 02:09 AM

Alice: it wouldn't be a surprise to find out that kid's parents are difficult (probably intimidating) to deal with; I work in a Prison.. see zillions of "kids" gone bad, at all ages.

When I was coming up in Catholic High School the authorities clearly & consistantly turned a blind eye to the worst of the bullies.. Why??

Cheers, BK

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: searcher45
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 03:00 AM

I post here, as I was shut out of the original thread. And I wanted my 2 cents thrown in...

I empathize with most comments, as I'm a parent of 6. And I wonder what my high school behavior would have been interpreted as in today's environment.

I won't blame the guns, or anything else, individually; rather the combination of most things mentioned set this tragedy in motion. Blame goes all around, but I single out: the parents, regardless of circumstance, followed very very very closely by the school administration.

Specifically, I disagree with a few comments here. I object to the "It Takes a Village" mentality. But only because of its propigator, HR Clinton.

The concept may make sense, but I cannot get beyond HRC. Because, and I didn't see this mentioned in 90+ posts, she is pro-abortion. So, her idea is that the entire village raises the child, but only if the child makes it out of the womb? And it's OK if the child doesn't? Yes it is OK, according to HRC; the mother has a right, protected by our Constitution, to murder her unborn child.

(And we all know now what the Clintons, or one of them at least, thinks of the Constitution: defend, preserve, and protect the parts I like, or fit my needs at that moment in time.)

As Mother Theresa said, paraphrased, if a mother can kill her own child, unborn, we can all kill each other.

And don't think for a minute that the abortion rights mentality, the pro-death mentality, has no detrimental effect on every American. It most certainly does. These evil children, our children, out in CO, grew up in under the abortion-as-right era. Pregnant? Inconvenient time for you? Well, a mere $300. (and blood on your hands,and a lifetime of guilt, depression, anxiety, substance or other abuse) takes your problem away. America, the land of the disposable toaster, car, environment, spouse, and fetus, or senior citizen. (When they coming after you or yours? When does voluntary become involuntary?)

Life's real cheap. It's $300. And that's just one of the dominant thoughts of this culture those kids absorbed.

My point is this: add the pro-death mentality, the abortion mentality, to the mix of problems that created this tragedy.

America's original sin was slavery. And we still pay for that today. God knows, literally, what America will pay for the 30+million children aborted. But pay we will, and we paid part of the bill in CO.

So, to whomever made the comment, the Pope wasn't wrong. America is a culture of death. Much more so than other nations, developed or otherwise.

But America has a strong sense of the spiritual, so I was surprised to see 1, and 1 only, post that mentioned a spiritual song.

My candidates, to finally answer the original question:

"Known Only to Him" and "Further Along": both Southern Gospel (I'm Irish Catholic, so go figure); both attempt to answer the inexplicable. Which, ultimately, describes the CO tragedy. Bill [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 03:41 AM

It sure has gotten out of hand, hasn't it? The shootings in Colorado were an absolutely horrible thing - but they were done by only two students who may have been helped by a very few others. I understand that there have been copycat threats in dozens of schools across the United States, so the problem is bigger than just one school. Still, most of the students and most of the 'Goths' would never so something violent like this, and I think it's important not to imprison all of the high school students in this country because of the acts of a few. I don't think "imprison" is too strong a word to describe what many would like to do an an attempt to control the problem. Sorry folks, but metal detectors and security guards are not the answer to the problem.
It seems to me that many of the problems we have in our high schools are caused but the fact that our schools are too big, to the point where students have become anonymous. High school kids are too young to be lost in the crowd like that. I realize that replacing huge schools with smaller ones is an economic impossibilty. That being the case, we'd better find another way to solve the problem. However we do it, we simply cannot let kids go though our schools almost unnoticed. We must ensure that every student is well-known to at least a few faculty members - that we reach and teach and inspire each and every student in our schools. Isn't that what we're supposed to be doing?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 06:14 AM

Thoughts on this subject started here A Song or two for Colorado victims

Schools ARE institutions that we force our children to attend (for most the best reasons). We know that prisons and hospitals do produce unusual survival behavior, why are we suprised when schools do the same?

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 08:10 AM

I posted something on another thread that I guess should have been here on a Colorado thread. So let me try some of that html mojo stuff. Gotta' head out for parts unknown with Karen for a "mental health" weekend.

catspaw

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Alice
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 08:47 AM

As I checked into the Mudcat this morning, I hear in the news playing in the background that a Florida teacher was suspended for "going to far". The teacher singled out a list of students in the class and told them they were problems, and they should go talk to the school psychologist. The school and parents responded that the kids behavior was normal, and the teacher was over reacting in that judgement. I agree with Joe. The schools are so big, and the teachers are for the most part so distant from the students, that the kids are anonymous. They are names and numbers (test scores) and that is why the administration doesn't know how to spot real danger warnings. In some schools, which we don't hear about, tragedies like this have been averted, because kids felt safe to tell the teachers and they could intervene. It is usually the other students who are tipped off first.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Alice
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 09:17 AM

A news article: Littleton Looks Back AtWarning Signs.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 10:39 AM

My heart goes out to all of the families who have lost and injured loved ones and to the families whose loved ones have seen things no one should ever have to see and experienced events no on should ever have to experience. I am shocked that any school system could have reacted as swiftly as the one bbc's son is attending.

I work in a field where "mandatory" treatment is the norm, the field of drug addiction treatment. The imposing of society's will on a member of that society should never be taken lightly. It is the nature of government to control the individual for the benefit of the whole. Governments only accrue power, they very seldom relinquish it. Therefore it behooves each of us to think long and hard about any surrender of the rights we now have. We will never get them back.

So, Rick, the best way for the government to protect your children is to lock them away in institutions with strong central control systems. Would you relinquish those rights?

I agree with Joe that large schools are inherently problematic. Kids get "lost" unless they excell. Alice's son is singled out as a possible problem without the school even talking to his teachers!

Adolescents are an intolerant, abusive bunch by nature. I worked with emotionally disturbed adolescents for five years and my credo to any adult wanting to work with them is you better damn well be comfortable with your faults and failings because these children will quickly point them out to you. They do the same to their peers. Less disturbed kids do it less.

I suspect that the perpertrators in Colorado were also victims themselves. It will be important for schools to look at what efforts they take to ease the abuse of others in school than to identify the "misfits" who are treated differently because they are different.

I don't often run on like this, but I felt I had to stand up for our rights. Relinquishing them is the "easy" way out and we pay dearly in the long run.

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 10:59 AM

Let me apologize in advance for what I am about to do. I normally don't like to attack individual posters, but I am going to here. It is not done out of malice, but it is done to point out the attitudes that, in my opinion, are part of the problem and those that are not. I want folks to read Alice's (no, she is not the object of my ire) and then read Searcher45. With the latter we have a person using this tragedy to advance a single issue that is obviously the only issue in society for them. This person even admits that they ignore a philosphy that ''may make sense'' for no other reason than the person that proposes it. Hey searcher, do you suppose you could use that massive intellect to consider these things on the merit of the ideas proposed.

Now contrast this person with Alice. I certainly don't agree with every comment she has made, and I am sure she doesn't agree with me on certain issues. But let me tell you as a person who has taught kids that fit into this discussion. Her son is going to be a fine human being, and I would bet everything I own on that. Why? Because she doesn't give a damn for all the 'intellectuallizing of the problem, but she is involved A to Z with her son. She knows his heart. And she is going to nourish, and fight on behalf of the individual that he is. I can guarantee you that if the boy starts going places that are troublesome, she will know long before someone anyone else does. And she will be involved. I am sure that the lad knows the depth of his mothers love and factors that into his decision making process. Good for you, Alice. While I have some problems with a few items, I believe your son is very fortunate to have you as a mother. Regardless of philosophical issues on which we may disagree, it is clear to me that you typify that which has been lost and which if it were "found" again by our society would do much to end these types of incidents. Which brings us to Joe Offers on the mark, as usual, observation. We can hold the schools accountable for what they teach and the standards that they adhere to. We can challenge them to utilize methods that have quantifiable results, and make a diploma be a statement on the level of accomplishment. But we cannot hold them accountable for our childrens level of self worth. We cannot hold them accountable for teaching our children their basic value system and to value the worth of those around them. We can hold them accountable for reporting to us anti-social behaviours and actions. But that is not the same as reporting that our child doesn't fit a "profile". Because it ignores that which Alice so wisely points out, that is the actions of the individual on which we should act. An adolescent young man being awkward and quiet, and not knowing how to talk around young woman certainly fits a profile. It is the profile of a young man. Students who produce a video for a class project that depicts them killing other students fits another profile. You want to know what the kids that were in my program taught me. That every kid, even the ones that are the most difficult is worth fighting for. That if the young people, even the most anti-social ones, believe that you are willing to go to any length to help them be successful, they will respond. I saw it.

I will quit with my rambling, but I must say this to searcher45. I am truly sorry to have to say this, but I see the focusing on this one single issue as part of the problem, not part of the solution. It ignores that this is a multi faceted, and very involved problem. I consider it finger pointing and self righteous. And lest you think that I am some baby killing liberal, I should point out that I am an Irish Catholic male who believes that abortion as a means of birth control is an abhorrent concept. 'Nuff said.

Mick

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Chet W.
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 10:59 AM

As a teacher, I could write you a long informed letter about this one, but to try to be to the point: School admininstrators have one rule above all others, which is never to admit that anything might be wrong on their watch, and to respond to any crisis with feigned ignorance. There is a school here in Columbia, SC (the state capital, metropolitan area about 250,000 people) that is supposed to be the "best" because it has mostly upper income kids. There is a commons area right outside the school office door where a gang of drug dealers in "gangsta" regalia pursue free enterprise daily. All the students know about it, all the teachers know, but if you ask the administration they've never heard of such a thing, and if teachers bring it up they are troublemakers and in no uncertain danger of losing their jobs. I'm sorry but you can bet it's the same at schools whereever you are. There are already laws to deal with the situation that bbc describes. Sue the crap out of the school. Name each admininstrator, from the bottom to the state superintendant, as defendants. They deliberately pick on the innocent because they are easier to pick on. Make them show the court why they shouldn't be held accountable. I think you'll find that most teachers would be delighted to be subpoenaed as witnesses. Similar advice goes to the parents of victims. I teach at the schools in the SC Department of Juvenile Justice. Our administrators are exactly the same. I see kids sent home every week, kids with very long violent records and having had nothing that could be described as rehabilitation, and come Monday morning they will be sitting next to your children in class. In my strongest opinion, when, and hopefully before, school violence occurs, administrators should be forced to say what realistic and effective plans they have implemented to deal with students who have DEMONSTRATED the willingness to do violence. The situation in Colorado in which you had a UNIFORMED gang that picked fights and preached racism was not an accident waiting to happen, it was a sure thing. Every administrator should be a defendant. If you're thinking that a school principal would never set him/herself up for that kind of liability, all I can say is that you would truly be amazed. They have reason to believe, as long as nobody holds them accountable as I have suggested, that a few dead students will not keep them from an overpaid retirement, free from care. Contrary to somehow popular opinion, most teachers I know are weary to death of this situation, and many are leaving the profession because of it. We don't have to think too hard about who loses in that instance.

Angrily, Chet W.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: John Hindsill
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 11:33 AM

I have live a lot of years, and seen our freedoms eroding little by little over the past 20 or so years in the name of safety. For the media to proclaim in hindsight that these events should have been anticipated by the action ot the perpetrators, for "family values" groups to blame media (Basketball Diaries seems prominently mentioned) for the actions of the perpetrators, and for psychologists and others to blame some of the victims for bullying the perpetrators is preposterous. The fact is that 99.99% of children subjected to such pressures DO NOT kill, rape, pillage or sack; most grow up to be productive citizens with the strengths and foibles of most of us.

I do not pretend to know how we can prevent such tragedies as this, magnified by technology and sanctified by media coverage, but the anecdotes above, and the knee-jerk responses of the pols are not the answer. I do not wish to live in Singapore or in BRAVE NEW WORLD. But damnit, I don't know what to do about it!

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: bet
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 11:47 AM

Why do teachers and administrators not do enough? We cann't. I'm in the elementarty school but through the years, time and time again we have not been allowd to seek help for our troubled students because the parents WON'T allow it. Since I teach music I see them all for 5 years, some I see abused, unloved, uncared for for 5 years. Did I try to do something, you better believe I did. Did some of these students become a threat in high school, yes some did. Could we have helped them if we had been allowed to? I don't know the answer to that but I believe we could have helped most. We all want to protect our kids. It makes my heart ache when we know abuse is going on in a home and social serves won't do anything. This whole thing dosn't make sense but please don't put the blame all on the schools. We are not the only influences in a students life. I too have a son who makes bad choices often. It's easy to say he comes from a one parent family, mother works, dad died when he was in the 5th grade, there are guns in the home, no one cares (Not true. Many of his teachers, relatives and our friends are still trying to help him grow to a productiove man.) These are just excuses and help to made us feel like it's not our fault. All week long I have tried to put in words how I feel. There is no way. I scares me the read that most of the blame is going to the school. Schools have guide lines that they must follow to unsure the rights of all the students. Some students need their rights taken away so that others can be safe but it is not the fault of the schools that they are unsafe people. Most educators beat their heads against the wall trying to get things done for their student or students only to be told NO by the parents. It sounds like some of you have some legidemint gripes( an aide calling a parent is unthinkable, where was the teacher?) But as hard as it is, we as parents need to look at what the school is saying and see if we can all work together to help this person through these hard years. Hope this isn't to jumbled, I really can't find the words to say what I feel. I just think blaming doesn't do any good. My heart aches for all, we should not have to be greiving for these high school studnets and their families. bet

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 12:09 PM

Bet, I am really glad you posted to this. Our society expects teachers to be everything and do everything for kids these days; and, increasingly, they are expected to accept the fact that they could die anyday they go to work; something I KNOW you and our other sisters never went to college for. Will they now make furture teachers take classes in how to diffuse bombs?

Mudcatters, I am talking in GENERAL, not about you personally. I am one of those who cares so much about my nephew, bet's son. She and I have talked a lot about this this week. My other sisters and brother have all had talks with kids in school this week about it too.

Pointing fingers is NOT going to get anything done. I am proud to come from a long line of teachers and I know that my siblings are some of the best teachers kids will ever have. It is NOT up to them NOR are they at fault if a student falls through the cracks. I cannot count the number of times they have cried, screamed and pounded their fists in complete frustration at the inaction of our system when they have helped to identify a student who needs help. Family life or lack of has a profound effect on everyone.

Kids have to feel there is SOMEBODY who cares about them. Each of you has demonstrated this in your posts relating your experiences.

If it weren't for teachers AND my family,I wouldn't be who I am, write as well as I do, converse as well, think and reason as well, etc. I know it sounds trite, but the old bumper sticker still holds true, "If you can read this, thank a teacher". Teachers are trained in college to teach; that is all we really have a right to ask of them. Now, because they see children so much of the day, children who may not see their parents except for an hour or two before bed time, we expect them to be psychologists, police, social workers, nurses, disciplinarians, a shoulder to cry on, a hugger, a surrogate parent, a boss, a giver and carer. While some of these are naturally associated with teaching, we are asking the impossible of each individual human; more than just about any other job description would entail except that of "parent" and/or some that specifically are to handle problem children and thus choose as their focus those roles.

Another trite truism: When someone points a finger, four of them are pointing back at them! Let's get beyond the blame and try to move our feet in a concerted effort to make changes for the good.

katlaughing

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 12:26 PM

God, I hope nobody jumps in to one of these 3 or 4 threads, yelling "hey dudes, more songs, less talk!" It's the songs that have allowed us to have these (mostly) civilized dialogues. When the initial shock wears off (and it will) we will become less emotional and spend a bit more time on music.

In this morning's paper there is a large picture of a kid in a trench coat looking (emphasise the word looking) cool and sitting next to him is his concerned looking mother. The story is that the school (in Nova Scotia) asked him to remove the trench coat (I guess to some, a total knee jerk over-reaction). Naturally, he refused. And naturally his mother has called in a lawyer to protect his rights. That'll show the school. How I wish that his mom had said to him "take that damn coat off for a couple of weeks. people are really sensitive right now!" But that wouldn't have made the news.

I wish I could revert back to my usual laissez-faire and somewhat detached approach to situations that I have little control over, but at this very moment I can't. It will pass.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Ethan Mitchell
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 12:48 PM

Thanks, everybody. It's a hard time to post coherently. I think we are always going to see survival behavior when we make schools a mandatory, non-consensual environment. This is not the teachers fault, nor is it the administrations fault: it is the fault of a society which cannot believe students self-motivate to learn. Mandatory schooling is a form of oppression, and is getting worse, as events like this indicate. I have been over the last few days very disturbed by the way the media is responding to Colorado. First, it is a sad commentary that we can only mourn nationally when middle-class white students are killed; when lower-class black dropouts are killed in much greater numbers and much more regularly, it barely makes local news. Second, all these godawful child-psychology-experts are getting on TV saying that if your son listens to alternative music, he's the next serial killer. We all *know* that's not true, and it's the worst kind of oversimplification, because it blinds us to the causes of the problem. And that, I think, is an insufficiency of parents. I mean caring, responsible adults who have a reasonably full-time interest in a child's welfare. I had four such people, and I'm sure they could have used help. Yes, searcher49, it takes a village. I hate the phrase too (corny 'African' proverb from Madisson avenue that it is), but it is true. Children are neccesarily a group responsibility............Like the vast numbers of other kids who listened to bad music and watched bad movies and played bad games, I got yelled at by adults for my tastes. And I always countered--accurately--with the adolescent version of de gustibus non est disputandum; otherwise none as 'There's nothing wrong with Nirvana, dad, Jeezum.' But there were also a lot of adults in my life with whom I had enough mutual respect that they could ask--or ask me to ask--why I liked a particular movie, what a song meant, where the suspension of disbelief ended. I think it is the lack of those adults that creates child killers................Ummmm, last thing. I edit a zine for unschoolers and prospective unschoolers here in Vermont. Anyone, but specifically Chet, Roger, bbc: I'd be interested in quoting from your posts here, if you didn't mind. (I'm at [e-mail], altho' my mail is down) --EM

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Irish Rebel (inactive)
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 12:51 PM

There's one common thread that all of out Kids sew with, and so do we. Music........ As I watched my 14 year old son walk down the street heading for school the day after this Tragedy, I wondered what he would be subjected to simply by being forced to spend the day with Kids from all different backgrounds. We played a few songs together the night before, and I couldn't bring myself to even CONCIEVE what it would be like to lose him in a Senseless scenario such as the one in Colorado. He plays and sings all kinds of Music with me, and some of his Friends. They all Love Music, just like we did growing up, and still do today. Does this have alot to do with how we think and act? Damn right it does. Kids that listen to Gangsta Rap, and Marilyn Manson etc. have their heads filled with Cop Killing, and Drive By Drug Wars, and lots of other SICK images. It's no surprise that Kids who are ostracized from their peers, ignored by Parents and other Adults, with heads full of Sick and Violent images one day go "around the Bend" and vent in such Horrible ways. I don't have the answer, but I have one of the questions that may help us in starting to fix the problem....What can we do to use Music as a means to bring People of all ages and backgrounds together in Peace, instead of Violence? May God Rest their Souls, and the Hearts of the Loved Ones they left behind.........Slante.......

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Night Owl
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 01:05 PM

Despite my vehement personal objections to some of the "political" stands expressed in this thread, I am again awed at the power of the Mudcat to heal. The suggestion of "Farther Along" as a song to provide comfort to grieving families is a suggestion with which I wholeheartedly AGREE!!

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Art Thieme
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 01:25 PM

O.K.---Just a short polemic. The truly sad part of this (after the burials) are the thousands of exceptionally young, uniquely talented, artistic, different, running to the beat of a different drum offspring of us all who will be villified victims of McCarthyistic "intellectual cleansing" in the one place where they should be encouraged, nurtured, vallidated and yes, praised---the "healthy" ovum incubater called a school. Unfortunately, we have lng been spraying D.D.T. and the already thin shell present during adolescence, implodes on itself and performs a 95th trimester abortion on our teenagers.

"Now is the time for your tears."--Bob Dylan

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Margo
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 01:58 PM

Egads! I am in a pinch for time. I didn't get a chance to read all the entrys. But I wanted to mention that my children's autism has taught me tolerence of anti social people. Perhaps the good coming out of this situation might be if People become aware through study the kids who are a REAL threat as opposed to someone who is in the awkward teenage "hard to fit in" stage or someone who is genetically anti-social.

Margie

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Chet W.
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 03:57 PM

Of course violence in the schools is just an extension of violence in society, and we'd all like to know what to do about that on a large scale, but as educators (all of us, not just licensed teachers) we have to try to make the schools the nurturing places that Art describes so well above. I know many teachers that speak out about important issues, and suffer the consequences. Until the public (all of us) force the ones with authority to take the same responsibility, the time for tears will not go away. I'd like to go into every home and right all wrongs, but that doesn't seem to be an option right now, while the option of keeping our kids alive at school seems to be at least possible. No one is saying that we should stifle individuality or free expression except when that expression includes violence. When it does, I hope we can offer help to all, but that does not mean we have to tolerate violence in our schools, not even a little bit. The rules have not changed in the decades since I was a student, but the limits and outcomes have changed considerably. Let's not sacrifice anyone. But freedom is something that you voluntarily give away the moment you pick up the stick without the intent of putting it down. Ethan, please quote as you see fit.

Chet W.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 04:22 PM

I think it's natural in a situation like this to respond fearfully by locking things up tighter and treating people with a little less trust. That may be the worst thing we can do. We need to do positive things, things that will make our schools better for everyone. Our schools need to be warm, friendly places where both students and teachers can feel at home.
I noticed in one of these threads that somebody suggested a parent should sue a school for mistreatment a child received. Gee, I hate that idea. Sure, there's a need for lawsuits on occasion - but I think problems are usually solved better by human interaction, not by legal action. Teachers and school administrators should not have to live in constant fear of lawsuits. We all make mistakes, don't we? Can't we resolve problems and correct mistakes by working together, not by retaliation?
However we respond to the situation in Colorado, we need to remember this:

Most students are good people. They're not perfect, but they try to do their best.
Most parents are good people. They're not perfect, but they try to do their best.
Most teachers are good people. They're not perfect, but they try to do their best.
Even most school administrators are good people. They're not perfect, but they try to do their best.

If we respond with fear and repression, we will destroy ourselves. Let us respond with open minds and open hearts.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: searcher45
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 04:36 PM

To Big Mick:

I wasn't, I believe, reducing this tragedy to one cause. On the contrary, there's far too many causes. I concluded my post with the opinion that this tragedy perhaps and ultimately is inexplicable. Largely, I believe, and again, because there's far too many causes. And I've yet to hear an invalid cause, here or elsewhere.

It's just what I HAVE NOT heard, here or elsewhere. And that is simply, and factually, that first, we live in a country where abortion is legal, and 30+ million children have died. No one should debate that.

2nd, and debate this all day if you like, I believe that this abortion culture has severe, negative effects on all of us. Especially children. We send the simple yet deadly message that life has no value.

So when someone blames a video game, or rock and roll, or TV, or the Internet, or permissive schools or parents or judicial or law enforcement or social agencies, I wouldn't argue. Rather, I would agree. But to that list, I would add the abortion culture, into which those murderers were born.

As a minor point, I didn't necessarily disagree with the "village" concept in child raising. Rather, I admitted that I couldn't get beyond its major champion, HRC; what I left implied, and thus not expressed, was that I cannot even consider the idea valid or not, because of her. I think that is an open admission of a certain close-mindedness on my part.

One last comment, Mick. I didn't object to your criticism of my post, until you got personal.

"Massive intellect" was a cheap shot. I'll let it go at that.

"Self-righteous" implies that I am insensitive to the plight of an unwanted pregnancy. Or that I am above sin, weakness,cruelty, greed, or any other human vice. On both counts, not true. And that unkind and unfair description, Mick, I considered a genuine insult.

Unfortunately, I can speak with 1st hand experience about the abortion issue. And that really is enough said, for me, anyway. Bill [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Alice
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 04:51 PM

The massacre in Colorado has deeply affected all of us in this discussion. Although we are usually trading lyrics and stories about music, here we find ourselves expressing how very strongly we feel about the safety and welfare of children. I am encouraged by the real sense of concern and responsibility, in all its forms, being expressed here.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Chet W.
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 06:25 PM

Well said, Alice.

Chet

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Robin McG
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 07:10 PM

To Searcher Abortion is legal in our country and that's a separate debate that could go on long after we are gone. I will acknowledge that lives were never allowed to be for whatever reason and that is sad. The issue should be left to the woman involved and her God. The shootings in Colorado and senseless acts of violence all over this world are another matter intirely. I hope that you can somehow see the difference. Robin

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 07:51 PM

Thank you, Robin. No one is ever going to agree, totally, on the right of a woman to govern her own body. When a man rails against that, it sounds misogynistic, to say the least. Freedom of religion means ANY religion.

Searcher, as a woman who definitely has very different views than you, I felt your very strong posting was presumptive and VERY personal. I did not respond because I do not believe you would *hear* what a woman has to say about the subject and because I have no interest in trying to change your outlook. It might sound trite, but the one bumper sticker sums it all up for me: "Keep your laws off my body". And, I have three wonderful, adult children one born when women had no right to choose, the other two after that right was legislated. NONE of them have grown up to be murderers or any other kind of criminal and I would put their reverence for life up against anybody else's anyday.

To get back to what we can do for the children:

From one of my favourite catalogues, Northern Sun Merchandising, these are on posters:

Paraphrased it goes something like this: "A small boy lived by the ocean. He loved the creatures of the sea, esp. the starfish, and spent much of his time exploring the seashore. One day he learned there would be a minus tide that would leave the starfish stranded on the sand. That day he went down to the beach and started picking up the stranded starfish and putting them back into the sea. When a neighbor asked him what he was doing, he told him that he was saving the starfish. The neighbor shook his head and sighed, "I am sorry to disappoint you, but if you look down the beach there are stranded starfish for as far as the eye can see. It's the same the other way up the beach. One little boy like you isn't going to make a difference." The boy thought about that for a minute. Then he reached his small hand down to the sand, picked up a starfish, tossed it out into the ocean and said, "I sure made a difference for that one."

Another one almost sounds to common sense and simple to be true, but if America and her children are to regain a sense of a community which cares, these are good suggestions:

How To Build Community:

Turn off your tv; leave your house; know your neighbors; look up when you are walking; greet people; sit on your stoop; plant flowers; use your library; play together; buy from local merchants; share what you have; help a lost dog/cat; take children to the park; garden together; support neighborhood school; fix it even if you didn't break it; have potluck; honour elders; pick up litter; read stories aloud; talk to the mail carrier; listen tot he birds; put up a swing; help carry something heavy; barter for your goods; start a tradition; ask a question; hire young people for odd jobs; organize a block party; bake extra and share; ask for help when you need it; open your shades; SING TOGETHER; share your skills; take back teh night; TURN UP THE MUSIC; turn down the music; listen before you react to anger; mediate a conflict; seek to understand; learn from new and uncomfortable angles; know that no one is silent though many are not heard, work to change this"

For more go to: http://www.northernsun.com

katlaughing

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: bet
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 07:52 PM

Joe Offer and Alice, Thank you! bet

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 07:58 PM

Sorry, that was my first attempt at putting in a link. Let's see if this one works:

click here!

If it doesn't work, juts type in www.northernsun.com in your browser.

Click here to learn how to do links right the first time. (grin)
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: bbc
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 09:32 PM

Well, it's been a long day. I have appreciated tremendously reading your thoughts on this subject which is hitting so close to home. I attended a get-together w/ the women of my church this am & got additional info on my son's situation from 2 moms of middle school students. Apparently, everyone in the school knows these rumors. Both kids came home Friday, reporting that my son was in trouble for having a gun & that his locker had been searched. To keep the record straight, there certainly was no gun, but it was the 1st we had heard that his locker had been searched. I have decided that this has gone far enough. On Monday, I plan to call the school &, if I can arrange it w/ my principal, meet w/ the administration at my son's school, to hear their version of what is going on & to see if we are at the end of their investigations. Joe, I have to say that the thought of taking a lawyer w/ me *has* occurred to me. Unfortunately, from my experience in the schools, I agree more w/ Chet's view of administrators than w/ yours, though I certainly consider that regrettable. I will feel very vulnerable if I go alone. Perhaps my pastor or my other son will be able to go w/ me. Part of the reason I feel the need to respond, at this point, is reflected in your comments, Roger. If we don't defend our rights, we lose them. Rick, I respect your posts & I agree that concerns need to be checked out. However,there have been several instances in this case, already, which have been unprofessional, to say the least. The school psychologist shared info w/ me which he could have only gotten in counselling sessions w/ my son's friend. That friend was called to the office & *he* was the 1st to be informed that he was being thrown out of school. If I was at risk to "go off", that would certainly provoke it!!! Different stories were told to me, to the boy's mother, to the boy's grandmother, & the next day, the story to the mother was altered from suspension to expulsion. There is no provision in the school handbook for more than 5-day suspension without the Superintendant being involved. If this isn't railroading, I don't know what is. I agree w/ all of you who call for adults to be involved in meaningful ways w/ young people. It is always my impulse to do so, but we live in a difficult world. In most of the schools where I've worked, it's been forbidden to touch students, either in affection or in discipline. I've had kids threaten me w/ lawsuits & I've heard of parents complaining to administrators, rather than discussing issues w/ their child's teacher. As a parent, if I attempt to discipline my own child in public, I may risk legal action, let alone if I try to correct another child's anti-social behavior. How many of you have watched someone litter & been too intimidated to say anything? It's hard to be the village raising the child when we fear retaliation.

bet, thank you for your post. There are many frustrations in education today, if you see it as a vocation rather than just a meal ticket. When I read the posts about profiling (thank you so much for your input, Alice!), it scared me. Although my household is probably more stable than most 2-parent ones at this point, I am a divorced, single mom raising 2 boys & I have had 2 lengthy bouts of unemployment. That shouldn't be enough reason for finger-pointing, but who knows?

searcher45--Bill, although your post was not received well by some, I read it carefully & understood & agreed w/ many of your thoughts. I do feel that life is held too cheaply in today's world & easy access to abortion is certainly an aspect of that. I am sorry that you & Big Mick clashed; I think you both had meaningful things to say. Sometimes, when we feel deeply, it is hard to express ourselves ideally.

I hope I haven't rambled on too long. I really appreciate your thoughts & support so much & will keep you informed on what happens next. Like Alice, it helps me to have found a group of thinking, caring folks. Thanks for being there!

yours,

bbc

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: gargoyle
Date: 25 Apr 99 - 12:20 AM

To Alice: A chap that I could consider an "adopted son" worked three years in a juvenial prison. "Why do schools and prisons permit bullys?" His answer was simple, "Bullys are part of the police system of the institution.....they are the 'shot-callers,' they provide a stability that the authorities cannot acheive."

To Chet: Your statment of school administratiion is exactly my experience....they are whores that will prostitute themselves to the elected school board....and sell out their closest colleagues. Conscience be damned. "School admininstrators have one rule above all others, which is never to admit that anything might be wrong on their watch, and to respond to any crisis with feigned ignorance. "

To bet:Most administrators have deserted their campuses to dance to the latest trend....ie. "block scheduling,"or "academies,"or"whole child," or "cooperative groupings," anything BUT the immediate needs of their immediate campus....most administrators don't listen, don't have clue, but do "have an immediate agenda" and it seldom matches to the needs of the campus....(administrators and students come and go....the custodians, secretaries, and teachers "endure multiple alien occupations" throughout their careers.)

To Joe: I MUST rephrase your statement, "Most school administrators are good people." Should read "Most school administrators are incompetant!"

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: LEJ
Date: 25 Apr 99 - 12:45 AM

If I hear one more person glibly say "don't blame the guns for Littleton- guns don't kill people, people kill people" I'm gonna scream.Now I own two guns, a 1920's era double barrel shotgun and a World War II Mauser 8mm, and I enjoy shooting them and hunting with them. But do you think citizens should have access to automatic weapons? Do you agree that the proliferation of weapons in this country is adding to the burgeoning death rate among our youth? And are you willing to turn your schools, offices, etc into secure compounds with metal detectors at the doors so that your local NRA member can have the pleasure of caressing and firing his AK47?

Our enlightened legislature in Colorado has decided that we'll all be safer when we can carry a concealed revolver legally. Oh boy won't that make traffic stops fun for the Highway Patrol! And, if I don't want guns in my store, hell I can always install a metal-detector at the entrance, and let my customer check his gun at the door. Is this the kind of world YOU want? The Honorable Jesse "The Body" Ventura of Minnesota said the outcome at Columbine would have been different if one teacher had been packing- yes, the world is a very simple place when you've had your head smashed against the canvas enough times, right Jesse?

Sure- it's not just about guns. It's about teenagers renting Faces of Death at the video store so they can giggle and grimace at people being killed on-screen. It's about kids who spend endless hours playing Doom or Duke Nukem on the PC, causing mutilations and decapitations and then have to go to school and be made fun of by other kids. It's about insipid plotless movies with lots of shiny weapons, realistic violence, and semi-sadistic heroes that you don't mess with.It's about parents that see their kids 5 minutes a day.It's about the triumph of alienation and the glorification of materialism in our society.

But it's also about guns- the right to own them- and the right NOT TO BE OWNED BY THEM...LEJ

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 25 Apr 99 - 10:07 AM

bbc, as the mother of a "different" kid who has been fortunate to be in a school setting with a great support system for you, my heart goes out to you and I will be with you in spirit tomorrow. You are modeling exactly what I feel and have said before is needed- direct involvement in the child's life, showing the child that you see and care about his point of view.
Your administrators, on the other hand, sound like the worst sort of incompetants. I agree that lawsuits are probably not the answer, but it may be necessary to talk to them in a language they understand. A letter to the editor of a local paper might also be a more pacifist way of expressing your concern and raising public awareness.
To all in this discussion: your thoughtful, passionate, articulate beliefs and the whole interweaving of the dialogue here move me to be grateful even more for this community. Thanks to you, I'm writing songs again (or trying to) to give voice thru music to the deep sorrow yet inextinguishable hope that I have in these wrenching times. Stay tuned for future postings of my feeble, humble efforts.
Allison

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Chet W.
Date: 25 Apr 99 - 11:38 AM

There is an article in our newspaper today (Sunday) about lawsuits being filed against the very state agency in which I work about failure to protect juveniles from sometimes repeated sexual and other assaults and about a counselor who was fired for reporting such incidents. This agency has never won a lawsuit.

bbc, if you read this before you go to the principal's office tomorrow, please consider retaining an attorney. Everyone (including myself) hates to think that lawsuits are the only way to communicate with authorities, but as was put so well above, you have to talk to them "in a language they will understand." They will try to intimidate you; They will get very nasty. Try to deny them such opportunities.

Good luck. I say with no cynicism or irony that your job tomorrow is important to us all, and the law, which I still believe in despite its many failures to secure justice, is on your (our) side.

Chet W.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 25 Apr 99 - 01:39 PM

I'm not sure how many mudcatters look on something they posted a day (or two, or three) ago and cringe. I am. Over the last three days I have sounded like a panicked neo-conservative, grasping at anything that might feel like a solution to the pain that just wouldn't go away. I suppose the horror of what is happening overseas was also a factor in my feeling just totally "helpless" (only word that seems right)

I've re-read this and two other related threads over and over again this morning, and I want to apologise to a couple of people who's opinions I respect. Bbc and Alice: You folks are in the middle of situations that are hard enough to deal with already, without self-righteous (although well intended) clap-trap, from me. I'm sorry, and I hope your commitment and back-bone makes the struggle easier.

To folks like Kat, Chet and Bet and the others who KNOW what the classroom is like from first hand experience, to Mick and Ethan and Margarita for thoughtful (and non-knee jerk) postings, To Roger for asking: would I "really" give up certain crucial freedoms.."of course not!" And finally to Joe Offer, for his "most students..most teachers"...reminder. THANK YOU. I'm only mentioning the names of some of the folks that I've become familiar with. Lots of "catters" have contributed to these threads in a positive, helpful and hopeful way.

rick

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 25 Apr 99 - 01:48 PM

Just to add one thing that I neglected a moment ago: Had there been "profiles" collected in the sixties to identify "problem" students, I would have fit EVERY ONE. I probably would never have asked for help or support, but I would have quietly welcomed it.

rick

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Apr 99 - 02:04 PM

Searcher,

I wrote that post and submitted it without rereading. I usually find that to be a mistake, as I am a passionate person and that means I sometimes say things in pursuit of my passions that I should not. Please accept my apologies for the "massive intellect" comment. It was not appropriate and I am ashamed at having said it.

The "insensitive" comment also deserves an apology, but only on a personal level, not on a general level. I don't know you, hence my comment becomes a gratuitous assertion not based on fact. And I am sorry for having made it as I don't know if you are insensitive or not. Your postings seem to imply a person who is thoughtful. I will not, however, apologize for feeling that I find many of the pro-lifers that I have known to be insensitive to and only half-hearted in their support of women who often have no other alternatives. I stated that I find abortion to be a horrible alternative. But I find that damning women and children to a life with little or no support systems to be just as horrible. Poverty and lack of hope are breeding grounds for alienation. Lack of support systems to help these children and their mothers find their place and their way in society are breeding grounds for anti-social behaviour. Most of the people I have met in the pro-life movement would agree with this, however they are so locked in the one fight that beyond agreeing with the premises, they do very little to combat these very real threats. In fact, they continue to vote for politicians who agree with the one position and these same pol's then vote to remove any kind of support for these women who are trying to put beans on the table, and still be a presence in the lives of their children. So to you, my apologies for a personal comment that I had no right to make,as I don't know if it applies. I am sincere in this. But to the "anti-abortion" movement, I do not apologize. I find their lack of depth troubling.

I hope you will accept this as sincere. The rest of what I have said I stand by, and offer it up for continued debate.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: bbc
Date: 25 Apr 99 - 06:20 PM

I didn't intend to post again until after tomorrow (which I'm *not* looking forward to), but I am so touched by everyone's caring that I wanted to say a few words. Most of today was taken up by driving to check out a college 2 hours from home w/ my older son. In the car, we read all the postings to this thread & discussed them. I hope Max doesn't mind us evolving into more than just a music discussion forum. I feel I've made true friends here & I value your opinions & support. When I got home, the 1st thing I did was to read the new postings. This group just seems to get better all the time! Rick & Big Mick, it takes a mature, caring person to look at his/her actions & admit that they were less than what s/he wanted them to be. None of us are perfect, but we sure come closer to that goal when we care about how we affect others & aren't ashamed to say we may have been wrong. I'm glad you both feel things strongly & I'm glad you're willing to share your thoughts w/ us. We all come out the richer when we pool our wisdom.

Chet, since my son has not been accused of anything, my leaning is to not go in looking aggressive, although I am concerned that my tone may be angry. It may be that, when I call in the morning, things will be resolveable that way. We'll wait & see. I have not been authorized to help in my son's friend's case, although I *did* give him the ACLU phone number to pass on to his mom. That may be appropriate in their case.

It does me good to know that many people are right-headed & right-hearted about our kids. Sometimes, you look around & really wonder.

bbc

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: searcher45
Date: 25 Apr 99 - 09:46 PM

Big Mick:

I swore I wouldn't post on this topic again, but your recent post prompts this, so forgive me.

First, thanks for the apology. It was very touching.

Second, believe it or not, I agree with you on your two major points. Which makes me wonder if I missed them in your posts.

Allow me a quick story: I once belonged to an ad hoc pro-life group, which was R. Catholic. Just my speed: confession, Mass, then praying a rosary in front of a clinic. Instructions were to NEVER approach anyone entering the building, never respond to taunts from drivers-by, never set foot on their property, etc. A peaceful prayerful group. (I abhorred then, still do, the violence from pro-lifers; Jesus, where is the justification or rationale for the bombings and doctor killings?)

Well, for a lot of reasons, I stopped going for a few years, only to return about a month ago. Let me tell you: the abuse and yelling that those women took from other pro-life activists there (not our group) was worse than I remembered. When I saw one of our members join in the shouting, and another member stop someone to give them literature, I decided to finish the prayers, leave, and never come back. And I haven't.

I agree 100% in the pro-life concept, but part ways on most of the tactics (that I've witnessed.) Those who use extreme measures (verbal abuse among them) will tell you ends justify means. I don't buy it. Those women don't deserve anything but love and sympathy or empathy. (Which some would reject, but oh well.)

This is not meant to paint the whole pro-life crowd as right-wing, bible thumping crazies, as the media often does. It's merely to say that I don't like what I see in my little part of the world. I hope everyone understands the distinction.

As to the post-birth support, I agree that less work is done, by appearance, but I think that work simply gets less media attention. There is an outfit here, Birthright, that does the job you mention. And you know what? That's probably where I'll focus my attention.

Now, and I hope I mean it this time, this is my last post on this matter. I hope fellow Mudcatters understand this CO tragedy conjurs up a great deal of emotion and examination of society and self. My original intent was to voice an opinion, popular or otherwise. It wasn't to cause more trouble, but I did anyway. Like you, Mick, I'll stand by my beliefs, but I too apologize; we don't need more trouble right now.

Big Mick, here's to the idea that I meet you soon on a thread where we're talking music. I've learned so much from this site. Thanks to all Mudcatters. Bill [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Cara
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 11:15 AM

I spent the weekend in the Arkansas delta (is it proper to say "in" or "on"?) with a good friend who teaches high school there as part of Teach for America. Both of us also worked in D.C. schools for a while. We discussed the CO tragedy from many angles, but one of the angles that I found very important I have not seen mentioned here.

What about the kids who tormented the "Trenchcoat Mafia"?

Let me stop right here and say that the actions of those gunmen are inexcusable and unfathomable to me. What they did was sick and twisted and all of those other things, but I would hate to see us lose sight of part of their self-stated motive: to get back at kids who hurt them. This is not how anger was or is vented in my world, but I know myself to be exceptionally lucky and loved.

I could go on about materialsim and the subsequent alienation that it fosters, and how these things tear at society, and especially the young who aren't well-anchored to begin with. I believe that our culture robs parents of the tools they need, by stealing their time and demanding that more be given, and by placing too much emphasis on status (which goes along with the crazy work schedules I just referred to) and by chipping away at old institutions which served, if not well then at least steadily, and not offering up better alternatives.

The CO gunmen were apparently victimized not just by vague cultural forces but by other kids whom they knew by name. Where were the adults stepping in to prevent that? Cruelty is another measure of the lack of empathy that certainly contributed to this tragedy. Some of the good kids of Littleton were apparently contributing to the forces that molded Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, and that's a huge tragedy as well. In our individualistic society, there's a peculiar acceptance of the notion that it's OK to raise your status by taking away someone else's--and that's probably true in many societies. I know adolescents must learn to make their way in the world, and I'm not suggesting that the PTA moms set up play dates for their anti social kids. But we all have to learn to recognize cruelty and callousness and treat that behavior as abhorrent as well.

Two examples: Monica Lewinsky named someone inn her "memoir" who tormented her as a youth, and described the pain that it caused her. The "perpetrator" is in a Masters of Education program at Harvard, and he didn't even remember that they had been classmates. he said hearing himself named made him rethink his childhood image of himself.

When I was in high school, a boy in the very affluent town next door killed himself. All of the usual things were said, and then his mother wrote a seething Letter to the Editor, pointing the finger at all of the children who had tormented her son for years, and at the parents and school staff who turned a deaf ear because the tormentors were socially well adjusted and decent students. I think she had the right idea, although I'm sure that there were other factors at work.

All of you loners, remember how angry you were when you were picked on? It seems excessive, as an adult, but as a kid those feelings of rage and hurt are real. I think the CO gunmen were extreme cases; it is absolutely, unequivocally right to state that the vast majority of kids who face the same issues or meet the same "profiles" would never commit such an act. Maybe someone should have "reached out" to them by punishing their tormentors.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Margo
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 11:47 AM

I love you guys! Rick, I certainly DO know what you mean about reading a past post and cringing. As I was reading these latest posts, I am struck at how many apologies there are! Yes, it is hard to "take it back" when it is written and posted.

I have always felt like an outsider. My family is very.....different. It turns out my children's autism answers a lot of questions. Its fascinating to see how, without understanding, people can be intollerant.

For example, my friend told me of a fellow at work who interrupts conversations, says what he wants to, and doesn't listen well. As it turns out, he has Attention Deficit Disorder, and has not learned to compensate adequately for this condition. Because he doesn't handle himself well, people only see a rude cretin.

I have no idea what those boys were like, as far as personality goes, but I believe their actions must have been the result of a long list of factors, probably including personality type to start with.

I have a friend whose daughter is ADD (I used to think that ADD was a new weirdo thing that doctors dreamed up). Dear darling Heather has among other problems connected with ADD, inappropriate emotional responses. She may get very upset at trivial things.

Sorry about going on. There must have been something wrong with the parents that they didn't know what was going on under their noses. That's another story, isn't it?

Ah well, more later, my muddy friends.

Margarita

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: hank
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 12:21 PM

BBC, My mom is in her final year at college for psycology. According to her classes it is impossibal to eveluate anyone under 18 psycologicly. There are too many variables that cannot be controlled. (at least in an adult hormons are perdictable, in a child they are not. I'm not taking sex driver about hormons, I'm talking something deeper)

Like I said in anouther place, there is only one sure way we can prevent colorado from happening again, and I'm not willing to sacrafice that much freedom.

I don't want to get into abortion, other then to state that there are not enough healthy babies up for adoption. the Adoption industry hasn't got their act togather, saddly (though they try).

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: LEJ
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 12:58 PM

Cara...I agree with you that bullying behavior is a bad thing. At one time or another we have all had to deal with it- at school, on the sports field, at our workplaces. We may even feel bullied by the police, or by the government.This behavior is nothing new under the sun- what has changed is the range of possible responses to it.Movies, computer games and the gun culture emphasize that you don't have to take it from anybody-if these influences come to bear on an impressionable individual with no self-respect and no respect for any one else- and in the absence of the strong influence of family,friends and any underlying sense of moral and ethical purpose-monsters may be created.

If you look at the face of Dan Mauser, a 15 year old victim of these monsters, I think you will be hardpressed to find a bully there.What you WILL find is a completely innocent victim of two thoroughly sick individuals.

LEJ

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Jon W.
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 01:02 PM

It seems to me that parental involvment is the biggest part of the solution. From what I've read, the parents of the two perpetrators were very involved in their own careers, provided plenty of material things (such as 30000 dollar BMWs) but ignored the gun and bomb parts in the kids' bedrooms. Perhaps they felt their kid's right to privacy outweighed their parental responsibility to supervise him.

I abhor the violent video games and music. Sure, most teenagers can distinguish between fantasy and reality, but fantasy has a real effect on brain chemistry. I suspect that for many many people, and perhaps males in particular, visual images multiply that effect, as do certain types of music. You can call it conditioning, programming, brain washing, or whatever, but I've got to believe that pulling the trigger on a virtual gun thousands of times while listening to intense music, and watching virtual bodies fly apart, has to make it easier to pull a trigger on a real gun pointed at real bodies. If not so, why do astronauts and pilots train in simulators?

My kudos to Alice and to bbc for your diligence in raising your sons.

Searcher, stand by your principles. They are good ones in my book. And at the same time, I say that those of us who are pro-life (I include myself) had better do a better job of finding (or more important, implementing) alternate solutions to the problems of unwanted pregnancy.

That's my 2 cents.

Jon W.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Cara
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 01:39 PM

LEJ- I'm sure you know this, but let me emphasize again that I was not trying to imply that the victims deserved what happened to them. What I was trying to say in my earlier post is that the culture that we now have leaves little room for fostering empathy. The killers certainly didn't have that quality, and according to them neither did some of their classmates. In the search for ways to prevent this kind of tragedy, I believe that we have to look everywhere, and not forget these kinds of perpetrators come from somewhere (although in the great nature/nurture debate, I don't rule out the idea of evil existing as a force in the world). To put blame on gun culture and the media, which certainly deserve it, leaves out some of the simpler solutions that start "where you live".

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Alice
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 02:13 PM

Coming back to the subject of folk music, it seems like we have in a way missed the point of what all the lyrics passed down over hundreds of years have been trying to tell us. Our ancestors were giving us warnings in all the songs telling of the murderous lovers, mothers, brothers, etc. They commemorated those horrible acts in folk song/story and are trying to give us the message that we should watch out for the people and circumstances that lead to suffering and death. I wish someone had drilled into me the real meaning of "Bonny Bunch of Thyme" before I went off to college. Yes, I had gone to Catholic school and knew what was a sin, but the peer pressure of each generation can be too persuasive. I caved in to what everyone else was doing instead of sticking with the morals that I had been raised with. The biggest tragedy is that people who hunger for really being loved settle for less, and there are plenty around to take advantage of that. Some other kind of attention is easier to get than real love and respect, and the consequences have been played out generation after generation.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Jon W.
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 07:11 PM

Here is a powerful article I ran across today after posting my previous message, that supports some of what I was trying to say: Trained to Kill

Alice, you bring up a good point. I was disturbed for a while with the amount of violence and illicit sex in some folk songs, even very old ones, but as I analyzed them more closely I saw that they almost always portrayed the negative consequences of the acts. This is one point in which I fear our modern media entertainment falls very short.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: bbc
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 09:03 PM

Well, here is my Monday evening report. It has been an exhausting day. I called the middle school this morning at 8:45, as early as I could expect anyone to be available. I was told the principal was unavailable, but I did talk for about 15 minutes to one of the 2 assistant principals. I ranted & raved & felt as if I had been heard. He promised to pass on what I had said to the principal & I said I'd call back after I met w/ my classes (just 9-11 am today) & see if an appointment in person seemed necessary. I called back at 11 & was only able to speak w/ a secretary, but I expressed myself strongly enough that she promised that, if I'd call back at 12:30, she'd make sure the principal was available to speak w/ me. I called back at 12:30 (Each of these calls used up a lot of adrenaline!) & did, finally, speak w/ the principal. Unfortunately, I received an unexpected shock. I had thought I was going to put an end to things & work on damage control. She escalated by claiming that she had received a new, negative report on my son that very morning. It was supposedly a remark he had made to a classmate approximately a month ago. At the time, neither the girl or her folks had seen fit to report it. Now, after hearing these rumors about my son for 2 days & having the weekend to think about it, the parent of one of the girl's friends brought this information to the principal. On the basis of this one, 4th-hand statement from a month ago, the principal told me, on the phone, that she wanted psychiatric evaluation of my son! Folks, these days you have to watch every word & action!!!!!!!! Well, at that point, it seemed clear to me that I needed to meet w/ her in person & I said so. We set up an apt. for 3:45 pm, after school was dismissed. It gave me time to make some phone calls to gather information & support & allowed me to pick up my son at school & ask him about the supposed statement. He said he had never said it & reminded me how protectively he feels toward girls (true!). When I thought about it, it was completely out of character for him.

My former husband & my fiance were both able to come to the meeting w/ me, so we made a pretty powerful entrance. I had spoken w/ the principal at my school & w/ a friend who is (believe it or not!) an administrator & I knew what the law was, in regard to suspension, psychiatric evaluation, etc. I started out very emotional & confrontational, as did the principal. She was calling for the evaluation, based on my son's association w/ his friend, on the rumors which had already been disproved, & on this new, unsubstantiated statement. First, I brought that fact to her attention. Then, I asked her which part of the state ed law she was basing the need for evaluation on. That stopped her in her tracks & the conversation became a lot more civilized after that point. She saw that we were ready & able to push back & that she had better know precisely what she was doing & why. The remainder of the conversation consisted of what I had thought I was going to be doing--damage control & working at making my son less conspicuous. By the end, no one was talking about suspension, psych evaluation, or any negative consequences to my son. We'll see if this is the end of it or not. I'm exhausted, but I feel good & my son really appreciated me standing up for him.

best to you all,

bbc (Barbara in NY)

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Craig
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 09:08 PM

Prayers for you bbc. Craig

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Alice
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 09:28 PM

Way to go, mom! I'm glad you had the two closest men in his life with you and were prepared. Your son will realize that you do really care about the truth and building trust with him. I'm sure he respects you and the dads for being strong.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: gargoyle
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 11:07 PM

CONGRADULATIONS BBC!!!

It was a battle worth fighting. Well Done!

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Apr 99 - 03:45 AM

I've been there, Barbara! You should be proud of yourself and those who went with you. Congratulations and keep it up. We are our children's best advocates. Keep us posted, okay?

kat

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Robin McG
Date: 27 Apr 99 - 05:00 AM

I am so glad everything worked out well for you. As a single mother myself I've always felt we fight harder for our kids but it doesn't hurt to call in reinforcements! Our children need to know that we will back them when they're right and be there when they're wrong. Prayers to parents everywhere.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 27 Apr 99 - 08:29 AM

What a harrowing experience- but good for you for carrying it all the way through. It sounds as though you've finally gotten thru to the principal and perhaps some work can be done at the school on rumor control. I'm sure it isn't over yet, and do keep us up to date. We're all rooting (praying, thinking, etc) for you!
Allison

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Bert
Date: 27 Apr 99 - 10:07 AM

Bloody good show bbc! You struck a blow for freedom for everyone. We're proud of you.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Jon W.
Date: 27 Apr 99 - 10:48 AM

bbc, Amen to what the folks above say. I've found you've got to stick up for yourself and your own, no one else will do it for you. Way to go!

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: bbc
Date: 27 Apr 99 - 04:55 PM

I have appreciated your kind words & support so much! Last night, I was wiped out. Now, I have had a little time to recover & reflect & I am feeling pretty good. I am really glad that my son's mom, his dad, & his future step-dad all thought he was important enough to interrupt their workday schedule. We presented a powerful, united front & I had done my homework on what the principal could & couldn't legally do. Even so, it was a difficult experience. I am currently in a strong emotional phase in my life; there have been times when I couldn't have faced what I needed to yesterday. If there are those you know facing tough situations, I hope you'll add your strength to theirs. Also, be aware that this is not a safe time to speak loosely or even dress thoughtlessly; people are running scared.

At the end of school today, my son & his dad stopped by the office. Instead of harrassing him, now the principal is trying to track down the originators of the rumor. It looks like she may have it down to 4 boys & she is continuing to pursue it. If there is more information, I'll let you know. Much of my strength came from your information, thoughts, & support. "Thank you" hardly seems enough. I hope we'll meet in person. How about Old Songs in New York at the end of June?!!! :)

bbc

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Chet W.
Date: 27 Apr 99 - 07:27 PM

bbc, again good for you. If all parents would do their homework and get involved like you did, a lot of our troubles in the schools would be over. I'll have to say that I'm not surprised that the principal didn't back down until you showed that you knew something about the legal aspects of what she was doing, and that you challenged her on that point. I imagine that the principal was used to bullying parents who don't know their rights. Please, everyone who runs into such problems, take note and take care. This principal was unusual only in that she knew when to back down. Other children without parental support as this would have been (and probably are being, at this moment) cruelly victimized so that the principal can say "See how vigilant I am; I caught a bad one." Unfortunately that is the only way that most of the ones I have seen know how to attract what they think is positive attention to themselves. They do the same tricks to their teachers.

Thanks sincerely, Chet W.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Lucius
Date: 27 Apr 99 - 07:54 PM

bbc: It's a shame and a pity that your immediate personal problem should spark so much debate. I usally am uncomfortable at pointing fingers, but your administrators seem to be true to form to what I've seen: sweep the problem under the rug--students too, if they get in the way.

The post Colorado frenzy would be funny, had it not been born of such violence. I've never seen so many Americans uniting together over one issue--these black trenchcoats. Forget guns, abortion, parents, students, drugs and television--if we could just get rid of those damn trenchcoats ;-\

Still--it was encouraging to hear that the NRA cut short their Colorado convention by a day, while the Colorado legislature postponed a vote on making it easier to carry concealed weapons.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: gargoyle
Date: 27 Apr 99 - 08:57 PM

As expected, Littletown Colorado School District shows up in Educational Literature with references to their experimental OBE programs(Outcome Based Education.)

It "could happen anywhere" but it does happen most commonly, in schools where the administrative philosophy is bankrupt.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Apr 99 - 09:05 PM

Just a correction, it is Littleton, but it is NOT a little town. No offense, Gargoyle, but my niece who is in San Diego has been trying to educate people all week about this, because they've been assuming the name denoted a small, mountain town in CO, as opposed to the Denver suburb it really is.

Forgive me, phoaks, it's close to home.

kat

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: bbc
Date: 03 May 99 - 05:49 PM

Well, as of Friday, April 30th, we were still having a lot of problems in my local area (N of NYC)--a fire was set in the high school of the next town over & there was a rumor in my older son's high school which caused the cancellation of an annual school event & provoked about half of the students to walk out halfway through the school day. Supposedly a sophomore boy has a website w/ a hit list & was going to start killing people during the event. I have started to cringe each time I hear one of these stories on the news. I really feel that the media is just feeding sick/mischievous people.

It looks as if we are past the crisis w/ my younger son. I wanted to let you know what happened w/ his friend, though. After 6 days of suspension (1 more than they can legally do) all without home tutoring (which should have been available after the 3rd day), he had 1 meeting w/ the school district psychiatrist on Friday. This is what they are calling "psychiatric evaluation." The dr. decided he was not, after all, a mass murderer & the young man was given the option of coming back to school, which he did, today. Unfortunately, he made the mistake of drawing attention to himself, by getting into a conflict w/ a kid in one of his classes who was sitting in his seat & wouldn't move when asked to. Now, he is suspended, again. I'm not saying he used good judgement, but the whole thing makes me sad & frustrated. The 1st suspension should never have happened. This was my 1st experience w/ prejudice & it's a pretty scary thing. I just hope that, as we have opportunity, we'll try to encourage folks we come in contact w/ to more balanced thinking & behavior. Too many people are running scared. I wish the media would just shut up about it!

best to you all,

bbc

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Alice
Date: 03 May 99 - 08:38 PM

bbc, the Copy Cat syndrome continues here, too. Today the other middle school in town was evacuated because of a bomb threat letter taped to one of the school doors. I went to the county superintendent of school's office today, where they very enthusiatically gave me the materials to register my son as a home schooled student. There is a large community of parents teaching their kids at home in Montana, and their lobby efforts in the legislature have become a model for other states. On the average, their academic scores are higher than scores of students in school, and they often finish high school early, with the ability to focus attention on additional areas of interest and talents.

There are alot of kids looking for attention in the aftermath of the media focus, and although some are hoaxes, some threats are genuine.

Regarding the checklist to target problem kids, I think there is over reaction and misconceptions. Here is the brochure information from the American Psychological Association that lists REAL warning signs. This is being advertised in cooperation with MTv since the Littleton shootings.
APA's list of Warning Signs

Thanks to whoever made the reference to the book by Grace Llewellyn. I got it right after you posted the title, and it is very interesting. (Sorry, I couldn't lost your post in this long thread.)

When I quit my job to freelance from home, I was "thinking outside of the box", as they say. It is not unlike home schooling, which is "learning outside of the box". There will be another computer set up next to mine that my son will use. Don't be surprised if he eventually joins in on the mudcat forum.

alice

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 May 99 - 12:34 AM

Some awful news from my gyrlfriend tonight, here in town. Her 11 yr old son and his friend, both freckle-faced, exemplary students, went five blocks to the Subway shop for sandwiches last Friday after school. While walking home to his friend's house, a man ran out to them in a parking lot, asked them if they'd been in the parking garage (multi-storeyed) about 1/2 block away, throwing steel marbles down at cars. Before they had a chance to say anything, he told them to stay put the cops were on their way. About that time 3 cop cars same to a screeching halt. The boys were terrified and unsure of what was happening.

The cops immediately started yelling at them. One asked my friend's son where he lived. He said I live in two places. The cop yelled at him about not answering the question. When "C" said I live one week with my mom and one week with my dad, the cop got even more irate saying nobody lives in two places like that.

They held these boys, in the parking lot of a bank, for 30 minutes with no charges, no calling of parents, no asking parents' names, nothing except harassment and intimidation. These are clean-cut looking boys. The one comes from a well-known and respected family of the LDS church. My friend's ex-husband is a former city attorney and my friend is a parlaegal with all kinds of connections. As she puts it, 1. she is out to defend her "cub" and 2. (she's part Fox indian) they messed with the wrong Indian! Tomorrow she is going to get names, reports, etc. and go for the gusto. I cannot wait to help her! The cops here have a history of harassing kids they don't like; kids who might seem to be different or belonging to the wrong social set, so what's new, right? Well, my friend has finally had enough. I am sad this happened,esp. to "C'; he is one of the sweetest, most sensitve, ardent and caring children I've ever known, but glad she is finally finding her voice and coming out from behind the nice-girl strictures of small town mentality and exposing the cops in town for what they are.

kat

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Alice
Date: 04 May 99 - 09:32 AM

Eleven years old and innocently walking home with a friend... these kids are going to have nightmares for awhile about this. 'Terrified and unsure of what's happening", the impression they will now have of the police is exactly the opposite of what most law enforcement people want. I hope there are also some letters to your local editor about this, so the rest of the community knows what happened.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Jon W.
Date: 04 May 99 - 10:38 AM

Congratulations, Alice, on your decision to home school your son. We (well, mostly my wife) have been home schooling our 4th grade daughter this year and it has been a very positive experience. We have another one in kindergarten who will probably be home schooled next year and more. Government has a de facto monopoly on education which I feel has allowed or perhaps even forced them to be very heavy-handed, abandoning common sense in many areas, which degrades the educational experience for almost all students. Home schooling seems to be the most feasible alternative, since private schools are out of reach for most of us.

There is a wealth of information on home schooling on the Web, as well as mail and email lists, which you should seek out. There is probably an organization in your state or city that has a web site. These are valuable in terms of support and resources.

Kat, sorry to hear that about your friend's son. The scary thing is that the cops (or the IRS or whoever) seldom admit they are wrong, seldom learn from their mistakes - I'm speaking of organizations, not individuals.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: bbc
Date: 04 May 99 - 05:13 PM

The world is going crazy. We just need to make sure we are keeping our heads on straight & see if we can influence some others to do the same. Alice, I support your decision to home-school. It sounds like public school has not been a good match for your son. I have a very close friend in Wisconsin who has home-schooled all 6 of her kids & is linked to home-school support groups. Her oldest is in college this year at U of WI & is doing just fine. They're one of the nicest families I know. Kat, I hated to hear of your friend's son's experience. Prejudice & hysteria are ugly, scary things. I feel vulnerable, but we each need to stand up for what is right. Keep us informed about your friend, so that we can give her some support, too!

bbc

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Alice
Date: 04 May 99 - 07:25 PM

Thanks, Jon. There is a very vigorous home school network here, and my voice teacher was even asked to create a children's choir for the homeschoolers. Starting before Christmas, she began conducting a 70 person choir of these kids, and the result has been wonderful. They are learning not only better vocal technique than what is taught at the schools, but the reportoire is more challenging.

The many neighborhood elementary schools here are great. The one my son attended is a half block from our house, and he went there from k-5. He still goes over to visit his former teachers. The problem is in the middle schools, 6-8. The high school is actually pretty good, and has an excellent art lab which includes a gallery. The complex was created that puts grades 6-12 together, all in one huge connected building, with over 2,000 students. The atmosphere of the 6-8th wing is like being in the midst of "Lord of the Flies". I was even pushed, shoved, had a bottle thrown past my head, etc, just trying to walk from the curb to the front door and into the building. The kids act like wild animals, and for some reason, there is no expectation on the part of staff to control their behavior. Common sense has somehow been deleted from that building. My son can continue going there just for the orchestra class, which is held in the high school, even while he is doing home schooling. I'll probably send him back when it is time for High School, unless it seems like he is doing better working independently.

alice

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 May 99 - 08:29 PM

Thanks everyone for concern and support for my friend and her son. She hasn't found out much, yet. Her ex was looking into some info today and she was being careful and making sure her ducks are in a row before she goes off fully-cocked.

YES!! There will be letters to the editor. My Rog is very accomodating about signing letters I write, since I can't do that and write a column, too. I've already done my columns for this month, so a letter it will have to be.

I will keep you posted. I feel so badly for little "C". He is one of the sweetest, more eager to please and do what is right kids I've even known.

kat

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: leprechaun
Date: 05 May 99 - 04:54 AM

Having been on the receiving end of many similar scenarios in the past 13 years, I thought I might add another possible perspective to Katlaughing's third-hand account of the steel marble incident. So the cop is driving along and he gets the call on the radio, "Two-Adam fourteen, (that's him) and Two-Adam twenty-four, (that's his cover car) ...see the man regarding a criminal mischief at the Parkade near the corner of Walk & Don'tWalk. Caller reports juveniles throwing ball bearings from the upper levels of the parking structure. Caller says his car was damaged and a ball bearing nearly hit a pedestrian."

The cop drives toward the parking structure and on the way he hears, "Two-Adam Fourteen, one of the complainants has detained two juveniles near the Subway Sandwich Shop, half a block away from the parking structure. We're getting several calls on this." When the cop gets there he finds two well dressed eleven year old boys and an irate complainant. His cover car drives around the area to see if there are any other likely suspects. All the cover unit finds is damaged cars, maybe a ball bearing or two, and more irate victims.

The primary officer has to talk to the man who detained the kids, and then talk to the kids. Or he might have the cover unit talk to the complainant while he talks to the kids. If it's real busy right now, they'll be the only responding units. If this is a recurring event, there might be a second cover car, or if it isn't busy, another unit might drive by just see what's happening. One of the responding units might volunteer to talk to the second boy out of earshot of the other to see if their stories match.

Apparently all the complainant can tell the officer about why he detained these two kids is the fact that steel marbles were dropping and these two kids were within a half a block at about the same time. Did he hear kids in the upper levels of the parking structure? Did somebody else say there were kids involved? Did they tell somebody the suspects ran this direction?

But let's forget about the complainant. He's not the villain katlaughing and her friend have chosen. The cop, after talking to the complainant, at least has to verify whether or not these kids are the suspects in the criminal mischief. Are these kids nervous because they've never talked to a cop before or because they got caught? Would they be the first clean-cut freckle-faced kids to heave things out of a parking structure? Any cop with more than six months on the job will answer that for you. So should he ask the kid where he lives? I suppose he better, just in case the kid's name has to go on a report. Does the cop know at that point whether he has the suspects or some innocent bystanders? No. So what's the cop looking for? Anything that will tell him whether he has to arrest this kid, or let him go. Is the kid confused about his address, or is he being deceptive because he doesn't want the cop to know where he lives? Should the cop ask him about the discrepancy? I suppose he better. Maybe the kid will admit to something. Maybe the kid will come up with an obvious provable lie.

What does the kid know? If he's been slinging marbles we know what he knows. If he hasn't, at least he knows this citizen and this cop suspect him of something. Whether he did it or not, it's no fun to be suspected of something. Might that shape his perception of how loud the cop is speaking? All he can do is stick to his story, and it probably looks to the boy like the cop doesn't believe him.

By the end of the interview, the cop may or may not believe the boys are the suspects. But the cop knows this -- Whether they did it or not, there isn't enough evidence to charge them. The citizen didn't actually see them throwing anything, and maybe the people in the Subway shop told the back-up officer the boys actually bought a sandwich. So off you go kid, and if it was you, I better not catch you doing it again.

Now the cop has to go gather information on all the damaged cars and angry owners he can find and write a report. Not much chance we'll ever find out who really did toss those marbles. But that's not the end of it. A few days later, the Internal Affairs sergeant calls him into the office and tells him there's been a complaint. He hears the complaint and wonders if it could possibly have been the same incident. This kid's mom says you yelled at him. Says the three of you drove up and "came to a screeching halt." She says you got mad at him because his parents are divorced. And you kept him there for a half-hour and didn't call his parents.

Well sarge, they might have been there a half-hour, probably twenty minutes at least. I kept them there long enough to talk to the guy who stopped them, then talk to Hank and Sally, (the other officers) about where the damaged cars were, and what kind of marbles got thrown. We couldn't find any witnesses, so I just asked these kids what they were up to. They both denied being in the parking structure. One seemed kind of confused about where he lived, and Hank thought he was lying about his address. But nobody yelled at them unless it was to be heard over the traffic noise. And the only way I would have called his parents is if I had developed proof that he actually did something wrong.

Well, says the sergeant, Risk Management will let you know when the lawsuit gets filed.

But that's still not the end of it. Now all the second and third hand accounts will spread throughout the demimondaine and letters will be pouring into the editors mailbox. By the time the anti-cop crowd gets through with this story it will be a racist incident. There are plenty of people out there who are pre-disposed to believe that every cop is Mark Fuhrman and all cops do is "harassment and intimidation" They "can't wait to help" in "exposing the cops in town for what they are."

katlaughing says "the cops have a history of harassing kids they don't like; kids who might seem to be different or belonging to the wrong social set, so what's new, right?" That's not consistent with your description of the "clean-cut looking boys." How did the cops manage to determine that these freckle-faced kids belonged to the wrong social set? Where I come from the cops supposedly have a history of harassing people because they look different. But I can tell you (though you most certainly won't believe me in a million years) it is a false history, written by a small group of sociopaths whose slogan is "What do we want? Dead Cops! When do we want them? Now!" I've personally seen the incidents I've responded to and investigated transmogrified by dishonest, hate-filled people who have absolutely no regard for the truth. In most other threads, catlaughing and Alice, you seem to be rational, thoughtful people. But apparently it's O.K. to hate cops, and assume the worst about them without conducting a proper investigation of the facts.

Maybe these cops who stopped your friend's kids were less than deferential, maybe they were the brutish cretins you apparently hope they were. But they were there because they had to be, and it would have been irresponsible of them not to investigate. If you refuse to acknowledge your anti-cop prejudice, you should hope nobody drops a ball-bearing on your head.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 May 99 - 09:11 AM

Jayus! Anti-cop prejudice? YOU DO NOT KNOW ME! WOW! Leprechaun, I think you are making way too many assumptions without knowing the whole story or the people involved. It was NOT at night when they might be busy with other calls. This was about 330pm, immediatley after school. There were and still aren't ANY reports of damaged cars or kids throwing anything off the garage except this one-unknown citizen who accosted these boys. The cops cannot be accused of being racist as it was "white-on-white". My daughter has completed two years of college in criminal justice and knows this cop shop pretty well. Accordin to her and other police, this is NOT an unusual occurrence. The boys DID have their sandwiches with them; they were taking them home to eat. These boys are not dishonest NOR hatefilled. I am NOT a sociopath and I do NOT hate cops, nor want them dead, as you so wrongly presume. Remember that old adage about assuming makes an ass out of U and ME? There was NO crime; never any other reports, no cars with any damage, no other people reporting any apparent incidents of a similar nature. I believe the former city attorney, who worked with these cops on a daily basis, and his ex-wife (my friend) who works with them in the court system on a daily basis are good judges of character and do NOT go off half-cocked in accusing anyone of anything; they wouldn't be any good at their jobs if they did and would be let go. As a member of a human rights org. I am on a first name basis with our Public Safety Director, our cops' boss. We've coordinated his men and himself coming to our group for presentations on their jobs and the difficulties of dealing with diverse cultures. We enjoy a high degree of respect for one another. He will be the first to look into this and make recommendations. This is NOT a big city. It may be the largest in population in Wyoming, but it is still only about 40,000. This kind of action, and the boys are not lying, is not necessary; one does not treat a child as one would a drunk who just beat up his wife, which IS a frequent call for the cops here. I posted this info to this thread to illustrate what many of us believe is a panicked and overzealous response to the COlorado massacre. I indicated that my friend was going to get the police report and the details and then fight for her child's rights based on what she found out about the incident. Last she knew, she, who works with the legal system everyday, it is illegal to detain someone without probable cause. There was not probable cause in this case except that the cops were to gawddamn lazy to go looking for any other kids, or a crime; took another adult's word for it that these two were somehow doing what he claimed, no evidence offered,and looked no further. It's the same thing when a law officer looks first at anyone of a minority and decides not to look any further; it's called prejudice. Deny if it you will; my daughter, while interning at the county jail, with the sheriff's dept., and with the police dept. heard it first hand; the minorities of this town have experienced it firsthand. No it isn't every cop, but it shouldn't be ANY who are allowed to use their authority to intimidate and harass. Now, some of them are looking cross-eyed at every kid in town. I, for one, intend to protest any high-handedness and make sure other parents are aware their children could have this happen to them AND that unless the cops say they are specifically charging them with something, they have the right to walk away, even though most kids would be too scared to do so. Now, you probably won't believe anything I've said, so I would suggest that we let this go until I can post more details of the facts of the case or not. And, let me also say, if somebody did drop a ball bearing on my head, I would most certainly call our police dept. While driving my daughter to the hospital, in the iddle of the night, some drunks drove past me and as they did, they fired a gun across the back of my car. I turned around, came home, called the cops and have nothing but good to say of the way they followed through, the sensitivity with which they handle a very scared mother and her older child; and, they way they kept after this and several other incidents of the same nature, which happened the same night.

kat

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Cara
Date: 05 May 99 - 10:37 AM

I hate to step into the middle of this fray, but I saw this elsewhere on the net and thought it might be appropriate for this thread. The article I read about it said that the song was written after the school sahootings at Jonesboro, but has been in high dema nd since the Littleton tragedy. It's certainly food for thought.

"If It Were Up To Me" by Cheryl Wheeler Maybe it's the movies, maybe it's the books
Maybe it's the bullets, maybe it's the real crooks
Maybe it's the drugs, maybe it's the parents
Maybe it's the colors everybody's wearing
Maybe it's the President, maybe it's the last one
Maybe it's the one before that, what he done
Maybe it's the high schools, maybe it's the teachers
Maybe it's the tattooed children in the bleachers
Maybe it's the Bible, maybe it's the lack
Maybe it's the music, maybe it's the crack
Maybe it's the hairdos, maybe it's the TV
Maybe it's the cigarettes, maybe it's the family
Maybe it's the fast food, maybe it's the news
Maybe it's divorce, maybe it's abuse
Maybe it's the lawyers, maybe it's the prisons
Maybe it's the Senators, maybe it's the system
Maybe it's the fathers, maybe it's the sons
Maybe it's the sisters, maybe it's the moms
Maybe it's the radio, maybe it's road rage
Maybe El Nino, or UV rays
Maybe it's the army, maybe it's the liquor
Maybe it's the papers, maybe the militia
Maybe it's the athletes, maybe it's the ads
Maybe it's the sports fans, maybe it's a fad
Maybe it's the magazines, maybe it's the internet
Maybe it's the lottery, maybe it's the immigrants
Maybe it's taxes, big business
Maybe it's the KKK and the skinheads
Maybe it's the communists, maybe it's the Catholics
Maybe it's the hippies, maybe it's the addicts
Maybe it's the art, maybe it's the sex
Maybe it's the homeless, maybe it's the banks
Maybe it's the clearcut, maybe it's the ozone
Maybe it's the chemicals, maybe it's the car phones
Maybe it's the fertilizer, maybe it's the nose rings
Maybe it's the end, but I know one thing:

If it were up to me, I'd take away the guns.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Robin McG
Date: 05 May 99 - 08:09 PM

The problem is the bad guy will still get the gun.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Tucker
Date: 06 May 99 - 12:17 AM

Sorry, but I am mad as hell at this thread. Leprechan, If firefighters did their jobs like cops, this country would be acinder. I have had a complaint against a woman who wrote fraudulent checks against my checking account for almost a year now. The Portsmouth Police are seemingly doing nothing.I am a retired firefighter, but whenever a citizen called in a fire, we went. The damn cops seem to sit on the butts. Damn it, I was robbed! I am mad. Just because it wasn't committed by some one with a black face and selling crack doesn't make it right. I think the justice system in this country sucks, it needs changed and I think it has to be equal for all. Swift, equal and out of the hands of greedy lawyers. Sorry, but you struck a nerve.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Tucker
Date: 06 May 99 - 03:41 PM

My apologies Leprechan, I was out of line in the way I wrote my last entry. I spoke what I feel but in an unbecoming manner. We have billions of laws in this country. A police officer once told me that if for whatever reason they wanted to pick you up there were 7 general laws anyone violates that they could use to do it. That's wrong. On paper it looks like we have a fair system but nowdays the "good" lawyers hire an expert to choose the perfect juror....one that won't convict his client (see OJ Simpson). I even read a book by one of these experts. How fair is that? I guarantee if I slice and dice my exwife I am going to be laying on a gurney with lethal needles in my arm because I can't afford F.Lee Bailey and Johnny Cockran. White collar robbery is handled different than regular breakins and such but the results are just as devastating. Look at all the old people robbed by telemarketers! Few of them go to jail or are imprisionned, but they should be. No one in this country really knows our tax code. It should be plain and simple. It should also not be deducted from wages. I promise if you had to fork over the money personnally you would be much more likely to be a tax resister. Anyway the law and how it is handed down is one of my pet peeves. I saw where the Long Island Lolita is being paroled, seven years after trying to blow her lover's wife's face off. On the same token Clinton is always after my guns. Explain this one to me folks? I have harmed no one, but they are releasing a known dangerous nut case. It doesn't make sense anymore.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: bbc
Date: 06 May 99 - 04:39 PM

Tucker,

I understand your frustration. My husband wanted a divorce, but he wanted everything else, too. We ended up divorced, sure enough, but the legal system allowed him to re-introduce the same issues again & again & I needed to respond each time. After 8 years of litigation, I had spent almost $50,000--between the 2 of us, more than $100,000 wasted. It makes me sick every time I think about it.

Back to the thread topic--Yesterday, I came home to letters from the superintendant of schools in the district where I work & the district in which my kids attend school. Both were responding to parent concerns & both were full of b.s. What bothered me the most was that in my teacher mailbox at school, I received a 12-page pamphlet on how to "profile" my students. We read & discussed it over dinner. This really worries me. It's entitled "Violence Prevention--Creating Safer Schools in NY State" & is co-sponsored by police, educational, & social agencies in the state. It lists school, personal, community, & family "risk factors"--many of which seem to me to be typical of adolescents. I can just see teachers & administrators ticking through this list & determining, in their minds, which kids are a danger. My household seems to be ok, for now, but I really wonder where this kind of thinking is taking us.

best,

bbc

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: leprechaun
Date: 07 May 99 - 03:56 AM

O.K. O.K. catlaughing, I don't think you're a sociopath, and I don't think you want to kill me. My post was extremely long, so you may not have had time to read it very carefully. My scenario was not meant to be more than conjecture because I wasn't there, so I can't say whether they screeched their tires or yelled at the boys. I just wanted to provide a cop's point of view. Maybe the cops who stopped your friends were unprofessional bozos, but the fact is at least one of them had no choice but to be there regardless of how unfounded the complainant's account was. He can't get on his radio and say, "Station One I can't go to that call because some lady on the human rights commission will probably write a nasty letter to the editor and I'll lose my job." If he does that, the guy who calls in the complaint will write a letter to the editor. In this case he might anyway because "these incompetant cops didn't even arrest those kids I caught throwing ball bearings at my car." For the cop, it's a lose/lose situation.

Now apparently the boys perceived that they were being sorely abused. But as far as stopping them, and investigating what the man said they did, nobody's rights were violated, not as you described the incident. It was an investigative stop, and requires somewhat less than probable cause. If the cops had developed probable cause, they could make an arrest. But they have to make the investigative stop first to develop probable cause, or determine that no probable cause exists. Until they make that determination, the objects of the investigation may not be free to leave. The unknown citizen exists, he called the cops, and the cops eventually determined the kids either didn't do it, or there's no way to prove they did.

I still think, based on your post, I had reason to suspect some anti-cop sentiment. Phrases like "3 cop cars same to a screeching halt;" "harassment and intimidation;" "The cops here have a history of harassing kids they don't like; kids who might seem to be different or belonging to the wrong social set, so what's new, right?;" and "exposing the cops in town for what they are," sort of jump out at me.

I like the thoughtful things you've written in other threads, and I think your nickname is marvelous. I envisioned you as a kind person, so the tone about cops dissappointed me. My reference to the cop-killer mentality and the sociopaths, if you will re-read my post, was directed at the nihilists in my own locality who use many of the same phrases in a bad-faith effort to de-humanize police. Many of my friends and I have personally been subjected to these campaigns, and I can attest to the fact that these people have no regard for the truth. The frustrating thing for us, as police, is there are people in postions of power (our city council and human rights commission) who, out of naivete, or to advance an agenda, lend credence to the false accusations of this violent criminal group. Perhaps that isn't happening in your town. But I would urge you to take care to verify, confirm, and corroborate before you send that stinging letter off to the editor, because maybe that's just what those cops did before they made the decision not to arrest your friend's son. I'm only speaking from my own experience in my own very difficult town when I say the cop who treated you well may get painted with the same broad brush.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 May 99 - 08:29 AM

Well. Leprechaun, you are still making some asuumptions, but I do appreciate your posting and agree with some points oyu make. I did some checking and in WY it is illegal to question a minor wihtout their parent or guardian present.

I've not talked to me friend today, but yesterday, after she and her ex left 2 messages, since Monday, for one of the higher up police, and nver received a call back, she checked with our firend who is the personal assit. to the Public Safety Director. The morning after that, she received a message that a policeperson had called her. She was to have called that person back last night. When I hear more I will post it.

Leprechaun: I am a writer. I use descriptive language A LOT. The phrases that jumped out at you were written that way as they describe the perceptions of people who were directly involved in what happened.

I am NOT on a human rights commission and I do NOT make assumptions based on vague accounts by minorities or anyone else. As a writer, I am used to thorough research before I write a report or opinion. There is no letter to the editor yet.

I don't assume that a cop's job is easy; I would hate to have to do their job and I am not happy about my daughtert wanting to be one, but that is NOT because I can't stand cops. It is because I fear for her safety and know the predominant kinds of calls cops have to go on here are of the particularly dangerous domestic violence type.

Also, I am sorry to keep at this, but I read and reread post before I respond and refer to them frequently while i am responding, so yours did get a very thorough read from me, no mistaking that.

Nobody, I repeat nobody said anything about "catching those boys throwing steel balls at my car". The citizen said nothing about his own personal car just that he tought they were the ones who had done something like that. I repeat, there were not, nor have there subsequently been, ANY reports of such an event happening to ANYBODY's car. Yes, of course, at least one cop had to check out the complaint; my point is that when they saw the youth of the kids involved, the appearance, etc. they should have comported themselves in a much calmer, more civil manner. This kid is going to have a bad impression of the very people I and my friend have always taught our kids they should be able to trust and go to when in need. He is still having nightmares. I am curious to know who "these people" are in your community? If they are minorities that does not excuse violence, but remember this country DOES have a long history of ill treatment of minorities. My son in law, who is from Anitgua, has been stopped by the cops in CT, many times while driving home last from work and asjked whose car he is driving; while my daughter, who is white, was simply asked for her registration; a subtle difference and ASSUMPTION on the part of the cops in a town which is about 65% minorities. When he or other big, black men walk into the local WalMart, the security guard puts his hand on his gun. My son-in-law has never done anything illegal, stayed at the same job for eleven years, supports and helps to raise his family, and just started a new job designing software. He comes from an upper middle class family with good values and gentle souls. His only problem, in our society, is he is big and black which brings out people's preemptive fears. Speaking from your own experience is fine; I just don't like it when someone assumes they can judge something else strictly by their experience. Thanks for writing. I suspect we will never agree on this. You're convinced I am a do-gooder out to break cops' balls and I am not.

K

atlaughing

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Allan C.
Date: 07 May 99 - 09:08 AM

Leprechaun, I have no intention of getting into the middle of the main arguments here. I am only curious about what you meant to say in your previous post: "...accounts will spread throughout the demimondaine". I will admit, I had to look it up. My dictionary defines "demimondaine" as a kept woman. I am just trying to figure out how that fits here.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Margo
Date: 07 May 99 - 12:07 PM

I really like Leprechaun's original post because:

The one thing I have learned in life is that there are always TWO sides to every story. All too often I have heard a story told and found myself being sucked in and making judgements on what one person said, only to find later that there were aspects not told which made me change my mind.

Kat, no matter what your story is, it is very important to hear the other side. I am glad Leprechaun posted his point of view because whether or not wrongs were committed by the police, it is important to understand what a policeman is supposed to do when he gets such a call. Your account of the story is third party: The boys, then their parents, then you.

Leprechaun's view is purely a statement of policy (what proceedure is in such a case) followed by a warning against prejudging, and a call for more objectivity.

Kat, I'm not saying you are this or that, but I am saying that where passions run hot it is frequent that objectivity goes out the window. I'd much rather be in hot water with Leprechaun than with you! :>)

Margarita

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: SeanM
Date: 07 May 99 - 12:55 PM

Ergggh... promised myself I'd stay out of this, but...

I live in a large Southern California city, and unfortunately have seen both sides of what Kat and Leprechaun are discussing.

Sadly, as a member of one of the 'fringe' communities, I've seen much more of the bad side of things.

Case in point. A few years ago, a local independent movie theater decided to spruce up the profits by hosting local bands of several different genres. Sadly, the theater owner did not obtain the correct permits. On the day of the last show, he was informed that the show would be allowed to go on, as long as this would be the last show held here (it was sold out)... To this he agreed, and he even agreed to cut the show over an hour short, at the request of the officer. For this he was told that his show would be allowed to happen, and the detective that he spoke to went on his merry way. I can vouch for this... the owner was a friend of mine, and I was present for the conversation.

Fast forward to that evening. First, this was a local acoustic/ska set, with a VERY mellow crowd. Everything was orderly... we waited in line to get in, and before the show we waited patiently in the auditorium. At no time did we present any 'loud and unruly' front - anywhere. Then, as the first act was ready to play, the same detective from earlier that day took the stage, and informed the crowd that the show had been cancelled. This was met with grumbling, but nothing more. I'd like to very specifically note that NOTHING HOSTILE happened. After his announcement, we were requested to stay in our seats, and when asked, file out in an orderly fashion through the lobby, where we would recieve refunds, and then disperse in a peaceful manner. Great... we were all for that.

10 minutes later, another officer (this one in full riot gear - helmet, shield, baton, etc.) ascends the stage, and swearing at us, demanded that we motherf*&^ing punk@#s kids had 10 minutes to be 4 blocks away, or every last one of us would be arrested for unspecified charges. This caused something of a panic, and a large portion of the theater started surging towards the doors.

Once outside, we were presented with at least 50 officers in full riot gear lining the street, batons at the ready, a helicopter hovering overhead shouting demands, and 5-10 cruisers on the street with officers with tear gas launchers at the ready. The riot squad was honestly there more to start a riot than prevent one. I watched as several of my friends were forced off the sidewalk by the crowd, whereupon they were beaten repeatedly by the officers, picked up, and thrown back onto the sidewalk. I never ended up in their 'tender' care, but still was hit VERY hard across my shoulders... I still have some trouble with this in certain weather. While moving along this gauntlet, we were subjected to repeated cussing and insults from the officers.

The next day, irate over my treatment, I contacted the police dept. to lodge a formal complaint. I was informed by a Sergeant who would NOT identify himself (after working my way through a couple of others) that the event 'did not happen' and that I should 'consider myself lucky that the police weren't there, as I probably deserved anything I got'.

It's probably worth noting that about 2 months later were the LA riots. The same ones that were helped along nicely by these same gentleman.

Now, as to my appearance and demeanor at the time.

I was a sailor in the US Navy, and had gone wearing a t-shirt (plain black, no offensive material at all) and jeans. Nothing about 99% of this crowd should have required this response, but we got it all the same.

This saddened me greatly, and still affects me (obviously). A friend of mine's mother is a dispatcher for another PD, and as she puts it, most officers fall into believing that EVERYONE is a 'perp', or perpetrator. They lose sight of the 'Serve and protect' that they swore to, and feel that they are just there to 'keep everyone in line'. These are quotes from her boyfriend of the time... who coincidentally is one of the nicest officers I know.

I guess my point is that incidents like this go a long way to creating an 'us against them' attitude amongst the general population. The bad behavior of an unfortunately high percentage of officers taints the entire force, causing us to colour all of our reactions. I still cannot talk with a uniformed officer without becoming EXTREMELY nervous, due to the above, as well as several other unfortunate incidents. Add to that the constant barrage of images in the media of police misconduct (Rodney King et al.), and while I do believe that there are many good officers who are a credit to their work (I've delt with more than a few. One of my best friends died in an accident in which I was the driver, and the officers I dealt with there will always be loved in my memory for their kindness) Sadly, the bad apples have spoiled the image of the barrel.

Keerist but I'm babbling. My apologies to those who wish 'less BS'.

M

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Margo
Date: 07 May 99 - 01:29 PM

Sean, I don't consider your post babble. I grieves my heart that such things do happen in this country as you have described. It's all the more important to remain objective in each case and to not tar all authority with the same brush. I have run into incompetance with authority rather than unjust persecution.

Margarita

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 May 99 - 04:24 PM

Margarita: actually I am usually pretty restrained and take a rather hand-off approach rather than get riled. My main point about Leprachauns posting was that he ASSUMED way TOO MUCH and, I think, presented a terribly biased guess as to what really happened. My friend, by reason of her job and being an artist, and her son, are both very observant and articulate. I happen to believe them.

SeanM. thank you for telling us of your experiences. I have to say I feel the same way. I've met many good and pleasant, helpful police and then had a couple really intimidate me. One was a rookie who stopped me because I still had a Wy. licence plate on my car with a new MA one, which I'd seen other people do to show where they'd some from. He took a very aggressive appraoch to me, with my 6 yr odl and 10 yr old daughters in the car who were terrified. When I called his chief, he was very nice and explained his rookie had been a little overzealous.

Another time, I was driving home from RI to across the border into CT, at night, withmy duaghter, by then about 13 and 16. This was during the Gulf War. We were in a very patriotic area. I had an 8" by 11" handmade sign in the lower left corner of my back window which said, "No blood for oil". Two RI state troopers stopped me, obstensibly for a taillight which was out that i didnt know about. I thanked them and was about to drive off , when one of them turned around and said, "Why doncha take that sign out of your back window, we could getcha for obstructing your view. Why doncha put a flag on your antenna instead!" My oldest daughter who was in the backseat started to say something, wehn my other daughter and I both told her to shut up and take the sign out. I was afraid they were going to arrest me and we'd not get hme that night.

The next day, I called the chief of police to complain. There were many people who lived there and had their entire back windows covered with flags, stickers and signs, many of which could be seen through at all. I had deliberately put mine down low on the left so that it would interfer with my vision. Anyway, the person I spoke to told me I should just let it lie, that I could still be arrested and hauled in. I spent that day going around to anyone who had a similar sign in their car windows, telling them to be careful that free speech was not supported by that law enforcement agency.

I know cops have to be on the offense when they aren't sure what the situation is that they are going to. There is no black and white, mostly gray and hopefully everyone involved will use restraint when dealing with one another.

I will post more on the local situation when I hear more.

kat

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Margo
Date: 07 May 99 - 04:44 PM

Gee Kat, I'm glad to read your last post. I was afraid I might have rubbed your fur the wrong way!

Margarita :>)

(By the way, I use the right arrow for the nose, as it is a better representation of real life in my case.)

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 May 99 - 06:10 PM

Oh, really I am NOT a hothead, even though red on the head! BUT the joke is on me; this SHOULD have read this way:

There were many people who lived there and had their entire back windows covered with flags, stickers and signs, many of which could NOT be seen through at all. I had deliberately put mine down low on the left so that it would NOT intefere with my vision.

And, like any good Kat, even if my fur does get rubbed the wrong way, I just smooth it down with a quick lick!

:^) (side profile, hehehe)

kat

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Chet W.
Date: 07 May 99 - 06:51 PM

This is a fine discussion. I'll start a new thread for convenience sake, if you don't mind. I have a question for Leprechaun on Post-Colorado Frenzy II.

Chet W.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Tucker
Date: 08 May 99 - 04:38 PM

what will you be calling it Chet? I know that I will be sticking my foot in my mouth on it, so be forewarned