Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Tucker
Date: 08 May 99 - 04:38 PM

what will you be calling it Chet? I know that I will be sticking my foot in my mouth on it, so be forewarned

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Chet W.
Date: 07 May 99 - 06:51 PM

This is a fine discussion. I'll start a new thread for convenience sake, if you don't mind. I have a question for Leprechaun on Post-Colorado Frenzy II.

Chet W.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 May 99 - 06:10 PM

Oh, really I am NOT a hothead, even though red on the head! BUT the joke is on me; this SHOULD have read this way:

There were many people who lived there and had their entire back windows covered with flags, stickers and signs, many of which could NOT be seen through at all. I had deliberately put mine down low on the left so that it would NOT intefere with my vision.

And, like any good Kat, even if my fur does get rubbed the wrong way, I just smooth it down with a quick lick!

:^) (side profile, hehehe)

kat

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Margo
Date: 07 May 99 - 04:44 PM

Gee Kat, I'm glad to read your last post. I was afraid I might have rubbed your fur the wrong way!

Margarita :>)

(By the way, I use the right arrow for the nose, as it is a better representation of real life in my case.)

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 May 99 - 04:24 PM

Margarita: actually I am usually pretty restrained and take a rather hand-off approach rather than get riled. My main point about Leprachauns posting was that he ASSUMED way TOO MUCH and, I think, presented a terribly biased guess as to what really happened. My friend, by reason of her job and being an artist, and her son, are both very observant and articulate. I happen to believe them.

SeanM. thank you for telling us of your experiences. I have to say I feel the same way. I've met many good and pleasant, helpful police and then had a couple really intimidate me. One was a rookie who stopped me because I still had a Wy. licence plate on my car with a new MA one, which I'd seen other people do to show where they'd some from. He took a very aggressive appraoch to me, with my 6 yr odl and 10 yr old daughters in the car who were terrified. When I called his chief, he was very nice and explained his rookie had been a little overzealous.

Another time, I was driving home from RI to across the border into CT, at night, withmy duaghter, by then about 13 and 16. This was during the Gulf War. We were in a very patriotic area. I had an 8" by 11" handmade sign in the lower left corner of my back window which said, "No blood for oil". Two RI state troopers stopped me, obstensibly for a taillight which was out that i didnt know about. I thanked them and was about to drive off , when one of them turned around and said, "Why doncha take that sign out of your back window, we could getcha for obstructing your view. Why doncha put a flag on your antenna instead!" My oldest daughter who was in the backseat started to say something, wehn my other daughter and I both told her to shut up and take the sign out. I was afraid they were going to arrest me and we'd not get hme that night.

The next day, I called the chief of police to complain. There were many people who lived there and had their entire back windows covered with flags, stickers and signs, many of which could be seen through at all. I had deliberately put mine down low on the left so that it would interfer with my vision. Anyway, the person I spoke to told me I should just let it lie, that I could still be arrested and hauled in. I spent that day going around to anyone who had a similar sign in their car windows, telling them to be careful that free speech was not supported by that law enforcement agency.

I know cops have to be on the offense when they aren't sure what the situation is that they are going to. There is no black and white, mostly gray and hopefully everyone involved will use restraint when dealing with one another.

I will post more on the local situation when I hear more.

kat

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Margo
Date: 07 May 99 - 01:29 PM

Sean, I don't consider your post babble. I grieves my heart that such things do happen in this country as you have described. It's all the more important to remain objective in each case and to not tar all authority with the same brush. I have run into incompetance with authority rather than unjust persecution.

Margarita

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: SeanM
Date: 07 May 99 - 12:55 PM

Ergggh... promised myself I'd stay out of this, but...

I live in a large Southern California city, and unfortunately have seen both sides of what Kat and Leprechaun are discussing.

Sadly, as a member of one of the 'fringe' communities, I've seen much more of the bad side of things.

Case in point. A few years ago, a local independent movie theater decided to spruce up the profits by hosting local bands of several different genres. Sadly, the theater owner did not obtain the correct permits. On the day of the last show, he was informed that the show would be allowed to go on, as long as this would be the last show held here (it was sold out)... To this he agreed, and he even agreed to cut the show over an hour short, at the request of the officer. For this he was told that his show would be allowed to happen, and the detective that he spoke to went on his merry way. I can vouch for this... the owner was a friend of mine, and I was present for the conversation.

Fast forward to that evening. First, this was a local acoustic/ska set, with a VERY mellow crowd. Everything was orderly... we waited in line to get in, and before the show we waited patiently in the auditorium. At no time did we present any 'loud and unruly' front - anywhere. Then, as the first act was ready to play, the same detective from earlier that day took the stage, and informed the crowd that the show had been cancelled. This was met with grumbling, but nothing more. I'd like to very specifically note that NOTHING HOSTILE happened. After his announcement, we were requested to stay in our seats, and when asked, file out in an orderly fashion through the lobby, where we would recieve refunds, and then disperse in a peaceful manner. Great... we were all for that.

10 minutes later, another officer (this one in full riot gear - helmet, shield, baton, etc.) ascends the stage, and swearing at us, demanded that we motherf*&^ing punk@#s kids had 10 minutes to be 4 blocks away, or every last one of us would be arrested for unspecified charges. This caused something of a panic, and a large portion of the theater started surging towards the doors.

Once outside, we were presented with at least 50 officers in full riot gear lining the street, batons at the ready, a helicopter hovering overhead shouting demands, and 5-10 cruisers on the street with officers with tear gas launchers at the ready. The riot squad was honestly there more to start a riot than prevent one. I watched as several of my friends were forced off the sidewalk by the crowd, whereupon they were beaten repeatedly by the officers, picked up, and thrown back onto the sidewalk. I never ended up in their 'tender' care, but still was hit VERY hard across my shoulders... I still have some trouble with this in certain weather. While moving along this gauntlet, we were subjected to repeated cussing and insults from the officers.

The next day, irate over my treatment, I contacted the police dept. to lodge a formal complaint. I was informed by a Sergeant who would NOT identify himself (after working my way through a couple of others) that the event 'did not happen' and that I should 'consider myself lucky that the police weren't there, as I probably deserved anything I got'.

It's probably worth noting that about 2 months later were the LA riots. The same ones that were helped along nicely by these same gentleman.

Now, as to my appearance and demeanor at the time.

I was a sailor in the US Navy, and had gone wearing a t-shirt (plain black, no offensive material at all) and jeans. Nothing about 99% of this crowd should have required this response, but we got it all the same.

This saddened me greatly, and still affects me (obviously). A friend of mine's mother is a dispatcher for another PD, and as she puts it, most officers fall into believing that EVERYONE is a 'perp', or perpetrator. They lose sight of the 'Serve and protect' that they swore to, and feel that they are just there to 'keep everyone in line'. These are quotes from her boyfriend of the time... who coincidentally is one of the nicest officers I know.

I guess my point is that incidents like this go a long way to creating an 'us against them' attitude amongst the general population. The bad behavior of an unfortunately high percentage of officers taints the entire force, causing us to colour all of our reactions. I still cannot talk with a uniformed officer without becoming EXTREMELY nervous, due to the above, as well as several other unfortunate incidents. Add to that the constant barrage of images in the media of police misconduct (Rodney King et al.), and while I do believe that there are many good officers who are a credit to their work (I've delt with more than a few. One of my best friends died in an accident in which I was the driver, and the officers I dealt with there will always be loved in my memory for their kindness) Sadly, the bad apples have spoiled the image of the barrel.

Keerist but I'm babbling. My apologies to those who wish 'less BS'.

M

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Margo
Date: 07 May 99 - 12:07 PM

I really like Leprechaun's original post because:

The one thing I have learned in life is that there are always TWO sides to every story. All too often I have heard a story told and found myself being sucked in and making judgements on what one person said, only to find later that there were aspects not told which made me change my mind.

Kat, no matter what your story is, it is very important to hear the other side. I am glad Leprechaun posted his point of view because whether or not wrongs were committed by the police, it is important to understand what a policeman is supposed to do when he gets such a call. Your account of the story is third party: The boys, then their parents, then you.

Leprechaun's view is purely a statement of policy (what proceedure is in such a case) followed by a warning against prejudging, and a call for more objectivity.

Kat, I'm not saying you are this or that, but I am saying that where passions run hot it is frequent that objectivity goes out the window. I'd much rather be in hot water with Leprechaun than with you! :>)

Margarita

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Allan C.
Date: 07 May 99 - 09:08 AM

Leprechaun, I have no intention of getting into the middle of the main arguments here. I am only curious about what you meant to say in your previous post: "...accounts will spread throughout the demimondaine". I will admit, I had to look it up. My dictionary defines "demimondaine" as a kept woman. I am just trying to figure out how that fits here.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 May 99 - 08:29 AM

Well. Leprechaun, you are still making some asuumptions, but I do appreciate your posting and agree with some points oyu make. I did some checking and in WY it is illegal to question a minor wihtout their parent or guardian present.

I've not talked to me friend today, but yesterday, after she and her ex left 2 messages, since Monday, for one of the higher up police, and nver received a call back, she checked with our firend who is the personal assit. to the Public Safety Director. The morning after that, she received a message that a policeperson had called her. She was to have called that person back last night. When I hear more I will post it.

Leprechaun: I am a writer. I use descriptive language A LOT. The phrases that jumped out at you were written that way as they describe the perceptions of people who were directly involved in what happened.

I am NOT on a human rights commission and I do NOT make assumptions based on vague accounts by minorities or anyone else. As a writer, I am used to thorough research before I write a report or opinion. There is no letter to the editor yet.

I don't assume that a cop's job is easy; I would hate to have to do their job and I am not happy about my daughtert wanting to be one, but that is NOT because I can't stand cops. It is because I fear for her safety and know the predominant kinds of calls cops have to go on here are of the particularly dangerous domestic violence type.

Also, I am sorry to keep at this, but I read and reread post before I respond and refer to them frequently while i am responding, so yours did get a very thorough read from me, no mistaking that.

Nobody, I repeat nobody said anything about "catching those boys throwing steel balls at my car". The citizen said nothing about his own personal car just that he tought they were the ones who had done something like that. I repeat, there were not, nor have there subsequently been, ANY reports of such an event happening to ANYBODY's car. Yes, of course, at least one cop had to check out the complaint; my point is that when they saw the youth of the kids involved, the appearance, etc. they should have comported themselves in a much calmer, more civil manner. This kid is going to have a bad impression of the very people I and my friend have always taught our kids they should be able to trust and go to when in need. He is still having nightmares. I am curious to know who "these people" are in your community? If they are minorities that does not excuse violence, but remember this country DOES have a long history of ill treatment of minorities. My son in law, who is from Anitgua, has been stopped by the cops in CT, many times while driving home last from work and asjked whose car he is driving; while my daughter, who is white, was simply asked for her registration; a subtle difference and ASSUMPTION on the part of the cops in a town which is about 65% minorities. When he or other big, black men walk into the local WalMart, the security guard puts his hand on his gun. My son-in-law has never done anything illegal, stayed at the same job for eleven years, supports and helps to raise his family, and just started a new job designing software. He comes from an upper middle class family with good values and gentle souls. His only problem, in our society, is he is big and black which brings out people's preemptive fears. Speaking from your own experience is fine; I just don't like it when someone assumes they can judge something else strictly by their experience. Thanks for writing. I suspect we will never agree on this. You're convinced I am a do-gooder out to break cops' balls and I am not.

K

atlaughing

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: leprechaun
Date: 07 May 99 - 03:56 AM

O.K. O.K. catlaughing, I don't think you're a sociopath, and I don't think you want to kill me. My post was extremely long, so you may not have had time to read it very carefully. My scenario was not meant to be more than conjecture because I wasn't there, so I can't say whether they screeched their tires or yelled at the boys. I just wanted to provide a cop's point of view. Maybe the cops who stopped your friends were unprofessional bozos, but the fact is at least one of them had no choice but to be there regardless of how unfounded the complainant's account was. He can't get on his radio and say, "Station One I can't go to that call because some lady on the human rights commission will probably write a nasty letter to the editor and I'll lose my job." If he does that, the guy who calls in the complaint will write a letter to the editor. In this case he might anyway because "these incompetant cops didn't even arrest those kids I caught throwing ball bearings at my car." For the cop, it's a lose/lose situation.

Now apparently the boys perceived that they were being sorely abused. But as far as stopping them, and investigating what the man said they did, nobody's rights were violated, not as you described the incident. It was an investigative stop, and requires somewhat less than probable cause. If the cops had developed probable cause, they could make an arrest. But they have to make the investigative stop first to develop probable cause, or determine that no probable cause exists. Until they make that determination, the objects of the investigation may not be free to leave. The unknown citizen exists, he called the cops, and the cops eventually determined the kids either didn't do it, or there's no way to prove they did.

I still think, based on your post, I had reason to suspect some anti-cop sentiment. Phrases like "3 cop cars same to a screeching halt;" "harassment and intimidation;" "The cops here have a history of harassing kids they don't like; kids who might seem to be different or belonging to the wrong social set, so what's new, right?;" and "exposing the cops in town for what they are," sort of jump out at me.

I like the thoughtful things you've written in other threads, and I think your nickname is marvelous. I envisioned you as a kind person, so the tone about cops dissappointed me. My reference to the cop-killer mentality and the sociopaths, if you will re-read my post, was directed at the nihilists in my own locality who use many of the same phrases in a bad-faith effort to de-humanize police. Many of my friends and I have personally been subjected to these campaigns, and I can attest to the fact that these people have no regard for the truth. The frustrating thing for us, as police, is there are people in postions of power (our city council and human rights commission) who, out of naivete, or to advance an agenda, lend credence to the false accusations of this violent criminal group. Perhaps that isn't happening in your town. But I would urge you to take care to verify, confirm, and corroborate before you send that stinging letter off to the editor, because maybe that's just what those cops did before they made the decision not to arrest your friend's son. I'm only speaking from my own experience in my own very difficult town when I say the cop who treated you well may get painted with the same broad brush.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: bbc
Date: 06 May 99 - 04:39 PM

Tucker,

I understand your frustration. My husband wanted a divorce, but he wanted everything else, too. We ended up divorced, sure enough, but the legal system allowed him to re-introduce the same issues again & again & I needed to respond each time. After 8 years of litigation, I had spent almost $50,000--between the 2 of us, more than $100,000 wasted. It makes me sick every time I think about it.

Back to the thread topic--Yesterday, I came home to letters from the superintendant of schools in the district where I work & the district in which my kids attend school. Both were responding to parent concerns & both were full of b.s. What bothered me the most was that in my teacher mailbox at school, I received a 12-page pamphlet on how to "profile" my students. We read & discussed it over dinner. This really worries me. It's entitled "Violence Prevention--Creating Safer Schools in NY State" & is co-sponsored by police, educational, & social agencies in the state. It lists school, personal, community, & family "risk factors"--many of which seem to me to be typical of adolescents. I can just see teachers & administrators ticking through this list & determining, in their minds, which kids are a danger. My household seems to be ok, for now, but I really wonder where this kind of thinking is taking us.

best,

bbc

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Tucker
Date: 06 May 99 - 03:41 PM

My apologies Leprechan, I was out of line in the way I wrote my last entry. I spoke what I feel but in an unbecoming manner. We have billions of laws in this country. A police officer once told me that if for whatever reason they wanted to pick you up there were 7 general laws anyone violates that they could use to do it. That's wrong. On paper it looks like we have a fair system but nowdays the "good" lawyers hire an expert to choose the perfect juror....one that won't convict his client (see OJ Simpson). I even read a book by one of these experts. How fair is that? I guarantee if I slice and dice my exwife I am going to be laying on a gurney with lethal needles in my arm because I can't afford F.Lee Bailey and Johnny Cockran. White collar robbery is handled different than regular breakins and such but the results are just as devastating. Look at all the old people robbed by telemarketers! Few of them go to jail or are imprisionned, but they should be. No one in this country really knows our tax code. It should be plain and simple. It should also not be deducted from wages. I promise if you had to fork over the money personnally you would be much more likely to be a tax resister. Anyway the law and how it is handed down is one of my pet peeves. I saw where the Long Island Lolita is being paroled, seven years after trying to blow her lover's wife's face off. On the same token Clinton is always after my guns. Explain this one to me folks? I have harmed no one, but they are releasing a known dangerous nut case. It doesn't make sense anymore.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Tucker
Date: 06 May 99 - 12:17 AM

Sorry, but I am mad as hell at this thread. Leprechan, If firefighters did their jobs like cops, this country would be acinder. I have had a complaint against a woman who wrote fraudulent checks against my checking account for almost a year now. The Portsmouth Police are seemingly doing nothing.I am a retired firefighter, but whenever a citizen called in a fire, we went. The damn cops seem to sit on the butts. Damn it, I was robbed! I am mad. Just because it wasn't committed by some one with a black face and selling crack doesn't make it right. I think the justice system in this country sucks, it needs changed and I think it has to be equal for all. Swift, equal and out of the hands of greedy lawyers. Sorry, but you struck a nerve.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Robin McG
Date: 05 May 99 - 08:09 PM

The problem is the bad guy will still get the gun.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Cara
Date: 05 May 99 - 10:37 AM

I hate to step into the middle of this fray, but I saw this elsewhere on the net and thought it might be appropriate for this thread. The article I read about it said that the song was written after the school sahootings at Jonesboro, but has been in high dema nd since the Littleton tragedy. It's certainly food for thought.

"If It Were Up To Me" by Cheryl Wheeler Maybe it's the movies, maybe it's the books
Maybe it's the bullets, maybe it's the real crooks
Maybe it's the drugs, maybe it's the parents
Maybe it's the colors everybody's wearing
Maybe it's the President, maybe it's the last one
Maybe it's the one before that, what he done
Maybe it's the high schools, maybe it's the teachers
Maybe it's the tattooed children in the bleachers
Maybe it's the Bible, maybe it's the lack
Maybe it's the music, maybe it's the crack
Maybe it's the hairdos, maybe it's the TV
Maybe it's the cigarettes, maybe it's the family
Maybe it's the fast food, maybe it's the news
Maybe it's divorce, maybe it's abuse
Maybe it's the lawyers, maybe it's the prisons
Maybe it's the Senators, maybe it's the system
Maybe it's the fathers, maybe it's the sons
Maybe it's the sisters, maybe it's the moms
Maybe it's the radio, maybe it's road rage
Maybe El Nino, or UV rays
Maybe it's the army, maybe it's the liquor
Maybe it's the papers, maybe the militia
Maybe it's the athletes, maybe it's the ads
Maybe it's the sports fans, maybe it's a fad
Maybe it's the magazines, maybe it's the internet
Maybe it's the lottery, maybe it's the immigrants
Maybe it's taxes, big business
Maybe it's the KKK and the skinheads
Maybe it's the communists, maybe it's the Catholics
Maybe it's the hippies, maybe it's the addicts
Maybe it's the art, maybe it's the sex
Maybe it's the homeless, maybe it's the banks
Maybe it's the clearcut, maybe it's the ozone
Maybe it's the chemicals, maybe it's the car phones
Maybe it's the fertilizer, maybe it's the nose rings
Maybe it's the end, but I know one thing:

If it were up to me, I'd take away the guns.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 May 99 - 09:11 AM

Jayus! Anti-cop prejudice? YOU DO NOT KNOW ME! WOW! Leprechaun, I think you are making way too many assumptions without knowing the whole story or the people involved. It was NOT at night when they might be busy with other calls. This was about 330pm, immediatley after school. There were and still aren't ANY reports of damaged cars or kids throwing anything off the garage except this one-unknown citizen who accosted these boys. The cops cannot be accused of being racist as it was "white-on-white". My daughter has completed two years of college in criminal justice and knows this cop shop pretty well. Accordin to her and other police, this is NOT an unusual occurrence. The boys DID have their sandwiches with them; they were taking them home to eat. These boys are not dishonest NOR hatefilled. I am NOT a sociopath and I do NOT hate cops, nor want them dead, as you so wrongly presume. Remember that old adage about assuming makes an ass out of U and ME? There was NO crime; never any other reports, no cars with any damage, no other people reporting any apparent incidents of a similar nature. I believe the former city attorney, who worked with these cops on a daily basis, and his ex-wife (my friend) who works with them in the court system on a daily basis are good judges of character and do NOT go off half-cocked in accusing anyone of anything; they wouldn't be any good at their jobs if they did and would be let go. As a member of a human rights org. I am on a first name basis with our Public Safety Director, our cops' boss. We've coordinated his men and himself coming to our group for presentations on their jobs and the difficulties of dealing with diverse cultures. We enjoy a high degree of respect for one another. He will be the first to look into this and make recommendations. This is NOT a big city. It may be the largest in population in Wyoming, but it is still only about 40,000. This kind of action, and the boys are not lying, is not necessary; one does not treat a child as one would a drunk who just beat up his wife, which IS a frequent call for the cops here. I posted this info to this thread to illustrate what many of us believe is a panicked and overzealous response to the COlorado massacre. I indicated that my friend was going to get the police report and the details and then fight for her child's rights based on what she found out about the incident. Last she knew, she, who works with the legal system everyday, it is illegal to detain someone without probable cause. There was not probable cause in this case except that the cops were to gawddamn lazy to go looking for any other kids, or a crime; took another adult's word for it that these two were somehow doing what he claimed, no evidence offered,and looked no further. It's the same thing when a law officer looks first at anyone of a minority and decides not to look any further; it's called prejudice. Deny if it you will; my daughter, while interning at the county jail, with the sheriff's dept., and with the police dept. heard it first hand; the minorities of this town have experienced it firsthand. No it isn't every cop, but it shouldn't be ANY who are allowed to use their authority to intimidate and harass. Now, some of them are looking cross-eyed at every kid in town. I, for one, intend to protest any high-handedness and make sure other parents are aware their children could have this happen to them AND that unless the cops say they are specifically charging them with something, they have the right to walk away, even though most kids would be too scared to do so. Now, you probably won't believe anything I've said, so I would suggest that we let this go until I can post more details of the facts of the case or not. And, let me also say, if somebody did drop a ball bearing on my head, I would most certainly call our police dept. While driving my daughter to the hospital, in the iddle of the night, some drunks drove past me and as they did, they fired a gun across the back of my car. I turned around, came home, called the cops and have nothing but good to say of the way they followed through, the sensitivity with which they handle a very scared mother and her older child; and, they way they kept after this and several other incidents of the same nature, which happened the same night.

kat

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: leprechaun
Date: 05 May 99 - 04:54 AM

Having been on the receiving end of many similar scenarios in the past 13 years, I thought I might add another possible perspective to Katlaughing's third-hand account of the steel marble incident. So the cop is driving along and he gets the call on the radio, "Two-Adam fourteen, (that's him) and Two-Adam twenty-four, (that's his cover car) ...see the man regarding a criminal mischief at the Parkade near the corner of Walk & Don'tWalk. Caller reports juveniles throwing ball bearings from the upper levels of the parking structure. Caller says his car was damaged and a ball bearing nearly hit a pedestrian."

The cop drives toward the parking structure and on the way he hears, "Two-Adam Fourteen, one of the complainants has detained two juveniles near the Subway Sandwich Shop, half a block away from the parking structure. We're getting several calls on this." When the cop gets there he finds two well dressed eleven year old boys and an irate complainant. His cover car drives around the area to see if there are any other likely suspects. All the cover unit finds is damaged cars, maybe a ball bearing or two, and more irate victims.

The primary officer has to talk to the man who detained the kids, and then talk to the kids. Or he might have the cover unit talk to the complainant while he talks to the kids. If it's real busy right now, they'll be the only responding units. If this is a recurring event, there might be a second cover car, or if it isn't busy, another unit might drive by just see what's happening. One of the responding units might volunteer to talk to the second boy out of earshot of the other to see if their stories match.

Apparently all the complainant can tell the officer about why he detained these two kids is the fact that steel marbles were dropping and these two kids were within a half a block at about the same time. Did he hear kids in the upper levels of the parking structure? Did somebody else say there were kids involved? Did they tell somebody the suspects ran this direction?

But let's forget about the complainant. He's not the villain katlaughing and her friend have chosen. The cop, after talking to the complainant, at least has to verify whether or not these kids are the suspects in the criminal mischief. Are these kids nervous because they've never talked to a cop before or because they got caught? Would they be the first clean-cut freckle-faced kids to heave things out of a parking structure? Any cop with more than six months on the job will answer that for you. So should he ask the kid where he lives? I suppose he better, just in case the kid's name has to go on a report. Does the cop know at that point whether he has the suspects or some innocent bystanders? No. So what's the cop looking for? Anything that will tell him whether he has to arrest this kid, or let him go. Is the kid confused about his address, or is he being deceptive because he doesn't want the cop to know where he lives? Should the cop ask him about the discrepancy? I suppose he better. Maybe the kid will admit to something. Maybe the kid will come up with an obvious provable lie.

What does the kid know? If he's been slinging marbles we know what he knows. If he hasn't, at least he knows this citizen and this cop suspect him of something. Whether he did it or not, it's no fun to be suspected of something. Might that shape his perception of how loud the cop is speaking? All he can do is stick to his story, and it probably looks to the boy like the cop doesn't believe him.

By the end of the interview, the cop may or may not believe the boys are the suspects. But the cop knows this -- Whether they did it or not, there isn't enough evidence to charge them. The citizen didn't actually see them throwing anything, and maybe the people in the Subway shop told the back-up officer the boys actually bought a sandwich. So off you go kid, and if it was you, I better not catch you doing it again.

Now the cop has to go gather information on all the damaged cars and angry owners he can find and write a report. Not much chance we'll ever find out who really did toss those marbles. But that's not the end of it. A few days later, the Internal Affairs sergeant calls him into the office and tells him there's been a complaint. He hears the complaint and wonders if it could possibly have been the same incident. This kid's mom says you yelled at him. Says the three of you drove up and "came to a screeching halt." She says you got mad at him because his parents are divorced. And you kept him there for a half-hour and didn't call his parents.

Well sarge, they might have been there a half-hour, probably twenty minutes at least. I kept them there long enough to talk to the guy who stopped them, then talk to Hank and Sally, (the other officers) about where the damaged cars were, and what kind of marbles got thrown. We couldn't find any witnesses, so I just asked these kids what they were up to. They both denied being in the parking structure. One seemed kind of confused about where he lived, and Hank thought he was lying about his address. But nobody yelled at them unless it was to be heard over the traffic noise. And the only way I would have called his parents is if I had developed proof that he actually did something wrong.

Well, says the sergeant, Risk Management will let you know when the lawsuit gets filed.

But that's still not the end of it. Now all the second and third hand accounts will spread throughout the demimondaine and letters will be pouring into the editors mailbox. By the time the anti-cop crowd gets through with this story it will be a racist incident. There are plenty of people out there who are pre-disposed to believe that every cop is Mark Fuhrman and all cops do is "harassment and intimidation" They "can't wait to help" in "exposing the cops in town for what they are."

katlaughing says "the cops have a history of harassing kids they don't like; kids who might seem to be different or belonging to the wrong social set, so what's new, right?" That's not consistent with your description of the "clean-cut looking boys." How did the cops manage to determine that these freckle-faced kids belonged to the wrong social set? Where I come from the cops supposedly have a history of harassing people because they look different. But I can tell you (though you most certainly won't believe me in a million years) it is a false history, written by a small group of sociopaths whose slogan is "What do we want? Dead Cops! When do we want them? Now!" I've personally seen the incidents I've responded to and investigated transmogrified by dishonest, hate-filled people who have absolutely no regard for the truth. In most other threads, catlaughing and Alice, you seem to be rational, thoughtful people. But apparently it's O.K. to hate cops, and assume the worst about them without conducting a proper investigation of the facts.

Maybe these cops who stopped your friend's kids were less than deferential, maybe they were the brutish cretins you apparently hope they were. But they were there because they had to be, and it would have been irresponsible of them not to investigate. If you refuse to acknowledge your anti-cop prejudice, you should hope nobody drops a ball-bearing on your head.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 May 99 - 08:29 PM

Thanks everyone for concern and support for my friend and her son. She hasn't found out much, yet. Her ex was looking into some info today and she was being careful and making sure her ducks are in a row before she goes off fully-cocked.

YES!! There will be letters to the editor. My Rog is very accomodating about signing letters I write, since I can't do that and write a column, too. I've already done my columns for this month, so a letter it will have to be.

I will keep you posted. I feel so badly for little "C". He is one of the sweetest, more eager to please and do what is right kids I've even known.

kat

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Alice
Date: 04 May 99 - 07:25 PM

Thanks, Jon. There is a very vigorous home school network here, and my voice teacher was even asked to create a children's choir for the homeschoolers. Starting before Christmas, she began conducting a 70 person choir of these kids, and the result has been wonderful. They are learning not only better vocal technique than what is taught at the schools, but the reportoire is more challenging.

The many neighborhood elementary schools here are great. The one my son attended is a half block from our house, and he went there from k-5. He still goes over to visit his former teachers. The problem is in the middle schools, 6-8. The high school is actually pretty good, and has an excellent art lab which includes a gallery. The complex was created that puts grades 6-12 together, all in one huge connected building, with over 2,000 students. The atmosphere of the 6-8th wing is like being in the midst of "Lord of the Flies". I was even pushed, shoved, had a bottle thrown past my head, etc, just trying to walk from the curb to the front door and into the building. The kids act like wild animals, and for some reason, there is no expectation on the part of staff to control their behavior. Common sense has somehow been deleted from that building. My son can continue going there just for the orchestra class, which is held in the high school, even while he is doing home schooling. I'll probably send him back when it is time for High School, unless it seems like he is doing better working independently.

alice

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: bbc
Date: 04 May 99 - 05:13 PM

The world is going crazy. We just need to make sure we are keeping our heads on straight & see if we can influence some others to do the same. Alice, I support your decision to home-school. It sounds like public school has not been a good match for your son. I have a very close friend in Wisconsin who has home-schooled all 6 of her kids & is linked to home-school support groups. Her oldest is in college this year at U of WI & is doing just fine. They're one of the nicest families I know. Kat, I hated to hear of your friend's son's experience. Prejudice & hysteria are ugly, scary things. I feel vulnerable, but we each need to stand up for what is right. Keep us informed about your friend, so that we can give her some support, too!

bbc

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Jon W.
Date: 04 May 99 - 10:38 AM

Congratulations, Alice, on your decision to home school your son. We (well, mostly my wife) have been home schooling our 4th grade daughter this year and it has been a very positive experience. We have another one in kindergarten who will probably be home schooled next year and more. Government has a de facto monopoly on education which I feel has allowed or perhaps even forced them to be very heavy-handed, abandoning common sense in many areas, which degrades the educational experience for almost all students. Home schooling seems to be the most feasible alternative, since private schools are out of reach for most of us.

There is a wealth of information on home schooling on the Web, as well as mail and email lists, which you should seek out. There is probably an organization in your state or city that has a web site. These are valuable in terms of support and resources.

Kat, sorry to hear that about your friend's son. The scary thing is that the cops (or the IRS or whoever) seldom admit they are wrong, seldom learn from their mistakes - I'm speaking of organizations, not individuals.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Alice
Date: 04 May 99 - 09:32 AM

Eleven years old and innocently walking home with a friend... these kids are going to have nightmares for awhile about this. 'Terrified and unsure of what's happening", the impression they will now have of the police is exactly the opposite of what most law enforcement people want. I hope there are also some letters to your local editor about this, so the rest of the community knows what happened.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 May 99 - 12:34 AM

Some awful news from my gyrlfriend tonight, here in town. Her 11 yr old son and his friend, both freckle-faced, exemplary students, went five blocks to the Subway shop for sandwiches last Friday after school. While walking home to his friend's house, a man ran out to them in a parking lot, asked them if they'd been in the parking garage (multi-storeyed) about 1/2 block away, throwing steel marbles down at cars. Before they had a chance to say anything, he told them to stay put the cops were on their way. About that time 3 cop cars same to a screeching halt. The boys were terrified and unsure of what was happening.

The cops immediately started yelling at them. One asked my friend's son where he lived. He said I live in two places. The cop yelled at him about not answering the question. When "C" said I live one week with my mom and one week with my dad, the cop got even more irate saying nobody lives in two places like that.

They held these boys, in the parking lot of a bank, for 30 minutes with no charges, no calling of parents, no asking parents' names, nothing except harassment and intimidation. These are clean-cut looking boys. The one comes from a well-known and respected family of the LDS church. My friend's ex-husband is a former city attorney and my friend is a parlaegal with all kinds of connections. As she puts it, 1. she is out to defend her "cub" and 2. (she's part Fox indian) they messed with the wrong Indian! Tomorrow she is going to get names, reports, etc. and go for the gusto. I cannot wait to help her! The cops here have a history of harassing kids they don't like; kids who might seem to be different or belonging to the wrong social set, so what's new, right? Well, my friend has finally had enough. I am sad this happened,esp. to "C'; he is one of the sweetest, most sensitve, ardent and caring children I've ever known, but glad she is finally finding her voice and coming out from behind the nice-girl strictures of small town mentality and exposing the cops in town for what they are.

kat

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Alice
Date: 03 May 99 - 08:38 PM

bbc, the Copy Cat syndrome continues here, too. Today the other middle school in town was evacuated because of a bomb threat letter taped to one of the school doors. I went to the county superintendent of school's office today, where they very enthusiatically gave me the materials to register my son as a home schooled student. There is a large community of parents teaching their kids at home in Montana, and their lobby efforts in the legislature have become a model for other states. On the average, their academic scores are higher than scores of students in school, and they often finish high school early, with the ability to focus attention on additional areas of interest and talents.

There are alot of kids looking for attention in the aftermath of the media focus, and although some are hoaxes, some threats are genuine.

Regarding the checklist to target problem kids, I think there is over reaction and misconceptions. Here is the brochure information from the American Psychological Association that lists REAL warning signs. This is being advertised in cooperation with MTv since the Littleton shootings.
APA's list of Warning Signs

Thanks to whoever made the reference to the book by Grace Llewellyn. I got it right after you posted the title, and it is very interesting. (Sorry, I couldn't lost your post in this long thread.)

When I quit my job to freelance from home, I was "thinking outside of the box", as they say. It is not unlike home schooling, which is "learning outside of the box". There will be another computer set up next to mine that my son will use. Don't be surprised if he eventually joins in on the mudcat forum.

alice

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: bbc
Date: 03 May 99 - 05:49 PM

Well, as of Friday, April 30th, we were still having a lot of problems in my local area (N of NYC)--a fire was set in the high school of the next town over & there was a rumor in my older son's high school which caused the cancellation of an annual school event & provoked about half of the students to walk out halfway through the school day. Supposedly a sophomore boy has a website w/ a hit list & was going to start killing people during the event. I have started to cringe each time I hear one of these stories on the news. I really feel that the media is just feeding sick/mischievous people.

It looks as if we are past the crisis w/ my younger son. I wanted to let you know what happened w/ his friend, though. After 6 days of suspension (1 more than they can legally do) all without home tutoring (which should have been available after the 3rd day), he had 1 meeting w/ the school district psychiatrist on Friday. This is what they are calling "psychiatric evaluation." The dr. decided he was not, after all, a mass murderer & the young man was given the option of coming back to school, which he did, today. Unfortunately, he made the mistake of drawing attention to himself, by getting into a conflict w/ a kid in one of his classes who was sitting in his seat & wouldn't move when asked to. Now, he is suspended, again. I'm not saying he used good judgement, but the whole thing makes me sad & frustrated. The 1st suspension should never have happened. This was my 1st experience w/ prejudice & it's a pretty scary thing. I just hope that, as we have opportunity, we'll try to encourage folks we come in contact w/ to more balanced thinking & behavior. Too many people are running scared. I wish the media would just shut up about it!

best to you all,

bbc

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Apr 99 - 09:05 PM

Just a correction, it is Littleton, but it is NOT a little town. No offense, Gargoyle, but my niece who is in San Diego has been trying to educate people all week about this, because they've been assuming the name denoted a small, mountain town in CO, as opposed to the Denver suburb it really is.

Forgive me, phoaks, it's close to home.

kat

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: gargoyle
Date: 27 Apr 99 - 08:57 PM

As expected, Littletown Colorado School District shows up in Educational Literature with references to their experimental OBE programs(Outcome Based Education.)

It "could happen anywhere" but it does happen most commonly, in schools where the administrative philosophy is bankrupt.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Lucius
Date: 27 Apr 99 - 07:54 PM

bbc: It's a shame and a pity that your immediate personal problem should spark so much debate. I usally am uncomfortable at pointing fingers, but your administrators seem to be true to form to what I've seen: sweep the problem under the rug--students too, if they get in the way.

The post Colorado frenzy would be funny, had it not been born of such violence. I've never seen so many Americans uniting together over one issue--these black trenchcoats. Forget guns, abortion, parents, students, drugs and television--if we could just get rid of those damn trenchcoats ;-\

Still--it was encouraging to hear that the NRA cut short their Colorado convention by a day, while the Colorado legislature postponed a vote on making it easier to carry concealed weapons.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Chet W.
Date: 27 Apr 99 - 07:27 PM

bbc, again good for you. If all parents would do their homework and get involved like you did, a lot of our troubles in the schools would be over. I'll have to say that I'm not surprised that the principal didn't back down until you showed that you knew something about the legal aspects of what she was doing, and that you challenged her on that point. I imagine that the principal was used to bullying parents who don't know their rights. Please, everyone who runs into such problems, take note and take care. This principal was unusual only in that she knew when to back down. Other children without parental support as this would have been (and probably are being, at this moment) cruelly victimized so that the principal can say "See how vigilant I am; I caught a bad one." Unfortunately that is the only way that most of the ones I have seen know how to attract what they think is positive attention to themselves. They do the same tricks to their teachers.

Thanks sincerely, Chet W.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: bbc
Date: 27 Apr 99 - 04:55 PM

I have appreciated your kind words & support so much! Last night, I was wiped out. Now, I have had a little time to recover & reflect & I am feeling pretty good. I am really glad that my son's mom, his dad, & his future step-dad all thought he was important enough to interrupt their workday schedule. We presented a powerful, united front & I had done my homework on what the principal could & couldn't legally do. Even so, it was a difficult experience. I am currently in a strong emotional phase in my life; there have been times when I couldn't have faced what I needed to yesterday. If there are those you know facing tough situations, I hope you'll add your strength to theirs. Also, be aware that this is not a safe time to speak loosely or even dress thoughtlessly; people are running scared.

At the end of school today, my son & his dad stopped by the office. Instead of harrassing him, now the principal is trying to track down the originators of the rumor. It looks like she may have it down to 4 boys & she is continuing to pursue it. If there is more information, I'll let you know. Much of my strength came from your information, thoughts, & support. "Thank you" hardly seems enough. I hope we'll meet in person. How about Old Songs in New York at the end of June?!!! :)

bbc

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Jon W.
Date: 27 Apr 99 - 10:48 AM

bbc, Amen to what the folks above say. I've found you've got to stick up for yourself and your own, no one else will do it for you. Way to go!

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Bert
Date: 27 Apr 99 - 10:07 AM

Bloody good show bbc! You struck a blow for freedom for everyone. We're proud of you.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 27 Apr 99 - 08:29 AM

What a harrowing experience- but good for you for carrying it all the way through. It sounds as though you've finally gotten thru to the principal and perhaps some work can be done at the school on rumor control. I'm sure it isn't over yet, and do keep us up to date. We're all rooting (praying, thinking, etc) for you!
Allison

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Robin McG
Date: 27 Apr 99 - 05:00 AM

I am so glad everything worked out well for you. As a single mother myself I've always felt we fight harder for our kids but it doesn't hurt to call in reinforcements! Our children need to know that we will back them when they're right and be there when they're wrong. Prayers to parents everywhere.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Apr 99 - 03:45 AM

I've been there, Barbara! You should be proud of yourself and those who went with you. Congratulations and keep it up. We are our children's best advocates. Keep us posted, okay?

kat

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: gargoyle
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 11:07 PM

CONGRADULATIONS BBC!!!

It was a battle worth fighting. Well Done!

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Alice
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 09:28 PM

Way to go, mom! I'm glad you had the two closest men in his life with you and were prepared. Your son will realize that you do really care about the truth and building trust with him. I'm sure he respects you and the dads for being strong.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Craig
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 09:08 PM

Prayers for you bbc. Craig

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: bbc
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 09:03 PM

Well, here is my Monday evening report. It has been an exhausting day. I called the middle school this morning at 8:45, as early as I could expect anyone to be available. I was told the principal was unavailable, but I did talk for about 15 minutes to one of the 2 assistant principals. I ranted & raved & felt as if I had been heard. He promised to pass on what I had said to the principal & I said I'd call back after I met w/ my classes (just 9-11 am today) & see if an appointment in person seemed necessary. I called back at 11 & was only able to speak w/ a secretary, but I expressed myself strongly enough that she promised that, if I'd call back at 12:30, she'd make sure the principal was available to speak w/ me. I called back at 12:30 (Each of these calls used up a lot of adrenaline!) & did, finally, speak w/ the principal. Unfortunately, I received an unexpected shock. I had thought I was going to put an end to things & work on damage control. She escalated by claiming that she had received a new, negative report on my son that very morning. It was supposedly a remark he had made to a classmate approximately a month ago. At the time, neither the girl or her folks had seen fit to report it. Now, after hearing these rumors about my son for 2 days & having the weekend to think about it, the parent of one of the girl's friends brought this information to the principal. On the basis of this one, 4th-hand statement from a month ago, the principal told me, on the phone, that she wanted psychiatric evaluation of my son! Folks, these days you have to watch every word & action!!!!!!!! Well, at that point, it seemed clear to me that I needed to meet w/ her in person & I said so. We set up an apt. for 3:45 pm, after school was dismissed. It gave me time to make some phone calls to gather information & support & allowed me to pick up my son at school & ask him about the supposed statement. He said he had never said it & reminded me how protectively he feels toward girls (true!). When I thought about it, it was completely out of character for him.

My former husband & my fiance were both able to come to the meeting w/ me, so we made a pretty powerful entrance. I had spoken w/ the principal at my school & w/ a friend who is (believe it or not!) an administrator & I knew what the law was, in regard to suspension, psychiatric evaluation, etc. I started out very emotional & confrontational, as did the principal. She was calling for the evaluation, based on my son's association w/ his friend, on the rumors which had already been disproved, & on this new, unsubstantiated statement. First, I brought that fact to her attention. Then, I asked her which part of the state ed law she was basing the need for evaluation on. That stopped her in her tracks & the conversation became a lot more civilized after that point. She saw that we were ready & able to push back & that she had better know precisely what she was doing & why. The remainder of the conversation consisted of what I had thought I was going to be doing--damage control & working at making my son less conspicuous. By the end, no one was talking about suspension, psych evaluation, or any negative consequences to my son. We'll see if this is the end of it or not. I'm exhausted, but I feel good & my son really appreciated me standing up for him.

best to you all,

bbc (Barbara in NY)

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Jon W.
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 07:11 PM

Here is a powerful article I ran across today after posting my previous message, that supports some of what I was trying to say: Trained to Kill

Alice, you bring up a good point. I was disturbed for a while with the amount of violence and illicit sex in some folk songs, even very old ones, but as I analyzed them more closely I saw that they almost always portrayed the negative consequences of the acts. This is one point in which I fear our modern media entertainment falls very short.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Alice
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 02:13 PM

Coming back to the subject of folk music, it seems like we have in a way missed the point of what all the lyrics passed down over hundreds of years have been trying to tell us. Our ancestors were giving us warnings in all the songs telling of the murderous lovers, mothers, brothers, etc. They commemorated those horrible acts in folk song/story and are trying to give us the message that we should watch out for the people and circumstances that lead to suffering and death. I wish someone had drilled into me the real meaning of "Bonny Bunch of Thyme" before I went off to college. Yes, I had gone to Catholic school and knew what was a sin, but the peer pressure of each generation can be too persuasive. I caved in to what everyone else was doing instead of sticking with the morals that I had been raised with. The biggest tragedy is that people who hunger for really being loved settle for less, and there are plenty around to take advantage of that. Some other kind of attention is easier to get than real love and respect, and the consequences have been played out generation after generation.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Cara
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 01:39 PM

LEJ- I'm sure you know this, but let me emphasize again that I was not trying to imply that the victims deserved what happened to them. What I was trying to say in my earlier post is that the culture that we now have leaves little room for fostering empathy. The killers certainly didn't have that quality, and according to them neither did some of their classmates. In the search for ways to prevent this kind of tragedy, I believe that we have to look everywhere, and not forget these kinds of perpetrators come from somewhere (although in the great nature/nurture debate, I don't rule out the idea of evil existing as a force in the world). To put blame on gun culture and the media, which certainly deserve it, leaves out some of the simpler solutions that start "where you live".

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Jon W.
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 01:02 PM

It seems to me that parental involvment is the biggest part of the solution. From what I've read, the parents of the two perpetrators were very involved in their own careers, provided plenty of material things (such as 30000 dollar BMWs) but ignored the gun and bomb parts in the kids' bedrooms. Perhaps they felt their kid's right to privacy outweighed their parental responsibility to supervise him.

I abhor the violent video games and music. Sure, most teenagers can distinguish between fantasy and reality, but fantasy has a real effect on brain chemistry. I suspect that for many many people, and perhaps males in particular, visual images multiply that effect, as do certain types of music. You can call it conditioning, programming, brain washing, or whatever, but I've got to believe that pulling the trigger on a virtual gun thousands of times while listening to intense music, and watching virtual bodies fly apart, has to make it easier to pull a trigger on a real gun pointed at real bodies. If not so, why do astronauts and pilots train in simulators?

My kudos to Alice and to bbc for your diligence in raising your sons.

Searcher, stand by your principles. They are good ones in my book. And at the same time, I say that those of us who are pro-life (I include myself) had better do a better job of finding (or more important, implementing) alternate solutions to the problems of unwanted pregnancy.

That's my 2 cents.

Jon W.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: LEJ
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 12:58 PM

Cara...I agree with you that bullying behavior is a bad thing. At one time or another we have all had to deal with it- at school, on the sports field, at our workplaces. We may even feel bullied by the police, or by the government.This behavior is nothing new under the sun- what has changed is the range of possible responses to it.Movies, computer games and the gun culture emphasize that you don't have to take it from anybody-if these influences come to bear on an impressionable individual with no self-respect and no respect for any one else- and in the absence of the strong influence of family,friends and any underlying sense of moral and ethical purpose-monsters may be created.

If you look at the face of Dan Mauser, a 15 year old victim of these monsters, I think you will be hardpressed to find a bully there.What you WILL find is a completely innocent victim of two thoroughly sick individuals.

LEJ

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: hank
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 12:21 PM

BBC, My mom is in her final year at college for psycology. According to her classes it is impossibal to eveluate anyone under 18 psycologicly. There are too many variables that cannot be controlled. (at least in an adult hormons are perdictable, in a child they are not. I'm not taking sex driver about hormons, I'm talking something deeper)

Like I said in anouther place, there is only one sure way we can prevent colorado from happening again, and I'm not willing to sacrafice that much freedom.

I don't want to get into abortion, other then to state that there are not enough healthy babies up for adoption. the Adoption industry hasn't got their act togather, saddly (though they try).

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Margo
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 11:47 AM

I love you guys! Rick, I certainly DO know what you mean about reading a past post and cringing. As I was reading these latest posts, I am struck at how many apologies there are! Yes, it is hard to "take it back" when it is written and posted.

I have always felt like an outsider. My family is very.....different. It turns out my children's autism answers a lot of questions. Its fascinating to see how, without understanding, people can be intollerant.

For example, my friend told me of a fellow at work who interrupts conversations, says what he wants to, and doesn't listen well. As it turns out, he has Attention Deficit Disorder, and has not learned to compensate adequately for this condition. Because he doesn't handle himself well, people only see a rude cretin.

I have no idea what those boys were like, as far as personality goes, but I believe their actions must have been the result of a long list of factors, probably including personality type to start with.

I have a friend whose daughter is ADD (I used to think that ADD was a new weirdo thing that doctors dreamed up). Dear darling Heather has among other problems connected with ADD, inappropriate emotional responses. She may get very upset at trivial things.

Sorry about going on. There must have been something wrong with the parents that they didn't know what was going on under their noses. That's another story, isn't it?

Ah well, more later, my muddy friends.

Margarita

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: Cara
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 11:15 AM

I spent the weekend in the Arkansas delta (is it proper to say "in" or "on"?) with a good friend who teaches high school there as part of Teach for America. Both of us also worked in D.C. schools for a while. We discussed the CO tragedy from many angles, but one of the angles that I found very important I have not seen mentioned here.

What about the kids who tormented the "Trenchcoat Mafia"?

Let me stop right here and say that the actions of those gunmen are inexcusable and unfathomable to me. What they did was sick and twisted and all of those other things, but I would hate to see us lose sight of part of their self-stated motive: to get back at kids who hurt them. This is not how anger was or is vented in my world, but I know myself to be exceptionally lucky and loved.

I could go on about materialsim and the subsequent alienation that it fosters, and how these things tear at society, and especially the young who aren't well-anchored to begin with. I believe that our culture robs parents of the tools they need, by stealing their time and demanding that more be given, and by placing too much emphasis on status (which goes along with the crazy work schedules I just referred to) and by chipping away at old institutions which served, if not well then at least steadily, and not offering up better alternatives.

The CO gunmen were apparently victimized not just by vague cultural forces but by other kids whom they knew by name. Where were the adults stepping in to prevent that? Cruelty is another measure of the lack of empathy that certainly contributed to this tragedy. Some of the good kids of Littleton were apparently contributing to the forces that molded Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, and that's a huge tragedy as well. In our individualistic society, there's a peculiar acceptance of the notion that it's OK to raise your status by taking away someone else's--and that's probably true in many societies. I know adolescents must learn to make their way in the world, and I'm not suggesting that the PTA moms set up play dates for their anti social kids. But we all have to learn to recognize cruelty and callousness and treat that behavior as abhorrent as well.

Two examples: Monica Lewinsky named someone inn her "memoir" who tormented her as a youth, and described the pain that it caused her. The "perpetrator" is in a Masters of Education program at Harvard, and he didn't even remember that they had been classmates. he said hearing himself named made him rethink his childhood image of himself.

When I was in high school, a boy in the very affluent town next door killed himself. All of the usual things were said, and then his mother wrote a seething Letter to the Editor, pointing the finger at all of the children who had tormented her son for years, and at the parents and school staff who turned a deaf ear because the tormentors were socially well adjusted and decent students. I think she had the right idea, although I'm sure that there were other factors at work.

All of you loners, remember how angry you were when you were picked on? It seems excessive, as an adult, but as a kid those feelings of rage and hurt are real. I think the CO gunmen were extreme cases; it is absolutely, unequivocally right to state that the vast majority of kids who face the same issues or meet the same "profiles" would never commit such an act. Maybe someone should have "reached out" to them by punishing their tormentors.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: searcher45
Date: 25 Apr 99 - 09:46 PM

Big Mick:

I swore I wouldn't post on this topic again, but your recent post prompts this, so forgive me.

First, thanks for the apology. It was very touching.

Second, believe it or not, I agree with you on your two major points. Which makes me wonder if I missed them in your posts.

Allow me a quick story: I once belonged to an ad hoc pro-life group, which was R. Catholic. Just my speed: confession, Mass, then praying a rosary in front of a clinic. Instructions were to NEVER approach anyone entering the building, never respond to taunts from drivers-by, never set foot on their property, etc. A peaceful prayerful group. (I abhorred then, still do, the violence from pro-lifers; Jesus, where is the justification or rationale for the bombings and doctor killings?)

Well, for a lot of reasons, I stopped going for a few years, only to return about a month ago. Let me tell you: the abuse and yelling that those women took from other pro-life activists there (not our group) was worse than I remembered. When I saw one of our members join in the shouting, and another member stop someone to give them literature, I decided to finish the prayers, leave, and never come back. And I haven't.

I agree 100% in the pro-life concept, but part ways on most of the tactics (that I've witnessed.) Those who use extreme measures (verbal abuse among them) will tell you ends justify means. I don't buy it. Those women don't deserve anything but love and sympathy or empathy. (Which some would reject, but oh well.)

This is not meant to paint the whole pro-life crowd as right-wing, bible thumping crazies, as the media often does. It's merely to say that I don't like what I see in my little part of the world. I hope everyone understands the distinction.

As to the post-birth support, I agree that less work is done, by appearance, but I think that work simply gets less media attention. There is an outfit here, Birthright, that does the job you mention. And you know what? That's probably where I'll focus my attention.

Now, and I hope I mean it this time, this is my last post on this matter. I hope fellow Mudcatters understand this CO tragedy conjurs up a great deal of emotion and examination of society and self. My original intent was to voice an opinion, popular or otherwise. It wasn't to cause more trouble, but I did anyway. Like you, Mick, I'll stand by my beliefs, but I too apologize; we don't need more trouble right now.

Big Mick, here's to the idea that I meet you soon on a thread where we're talking music. I've learned so much from this site. Thanks to all Mudcatters. Bill [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy (No Joke)
From: bbc
Date: 25 Apr 99 - 06:20 PM

I didn't intend to post again until after tomorrow (which I'm *not* looking forward to), but I am so touched by everyone's caring that I wanted to say a few words. Most of today was taken up by driving to check out a college 2 hours from home w/ my older son. In the car, we read all the postings to this thread & discussed them. I hope Max doesn't mind us evolving into more than just a music discussion forum. I feel I've made true friends here & I value your opinions & support. When I got home, the 1st thing I did was to read the new postings. This group just seems to get better all the time! Rick & Big Mick, it takes a mature, caring person to look at his/her actions & admit that they were less than what s/he wanted them to be. None of us are perfect, but we sure come closer to that goal when we care about how we affect others & aren't ashamed to say we may have been wrong. I'm glad you both feel things strongly & I'm glad you're willing to share your thoughts w/ us. We all come out the richer when we pool our wisdom.

Chet, since my son has not been accused of anything, my leaning is to not go in looking aggressive, although I am concerned that my tone may be angry. It may be that, when I call in the morning, things will be resolveable that way. We'll wait & see. I have not been authorized to help in my son's friend's case, although I *did* give him the ACLU phone number to pass on to his mom. That may be appropriate in their case.

It does me good to know that many people are right-headed & right-hearted about our kids. Sometimes, you look around & really wonder.

bbc