String Gauges

Subject: String Gauges
From: GUEST,Randy
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 09:19 PM

I have a question regarding string gauges. If the man who made my guitar recomends light gauge strings, is that across the board or is that only in regard to standard tuning? If I tune to DADGAD or DGDGAD, or something similar, can( or should) I use medium gauge strings? I suppose I should just ask Mr.Lowden his opinion. What are some thoughts on the matter. Thanks, Randy.

Subject: RE: String Gauges
From: Peace
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 09:24 PM

It's to do with tension that is placed on the neck and the joint where it meets the body. If you are tuning up, stay with lights. If you are tuning down a few tones, it should take mediums. Best thing to do, imo, is call the person who made your axe.

Subject: RE: String Gauges
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 09:38 PM

I used to have a chart that gave recommended string gauges for any note for various instrument lengths (nut to bridge). Very handy for funny tunings or funny instruments. There must be something like that on the web somewhere. Anyone got a link?

Subject: RE: String Gauges
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 05:42 AM

Universal String Tension Calculator

Use this to calculate the tension on your instrument when using the recommended gauages and then recalculate the gauges to keep the tension correct when re-tuning.

However, a guitar ought to be able to cope with light or medium in standard tuning I would have thought, it's just that the change in tension could alter the action (ie setup).

Subject: RE: String Gauges
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 08:28 AM

I'm looking for some non standard guitar strings to fit an old auto-harp. It needs a few 'extra' bass strings - when you buy a 'standard' autoharp string set.

Subject: RE: String Gauges
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 08:31 AM

If you're intending to stick with DADGAD, get some Newtone Masterclass specialised DADGAD sets. Not only are they, IMHO, the finest strings on the market, they are exactly the same gauges as lights, but with an adjusted core-size, which means that, in DADGAD the tensions are exactly the same as standard lights tuned EADGBE.

They sound and feel fantastic, exactly like standard sets, and they're the same price as Newtones' standard sets.

Have a look here:- www.newtonestrings.com (sorry, my Mudcat strings don't extend as far as making Blickies!) :-)

S:0)

Subject: RE: String Gauges
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 08:32 AM

Meant to say that's what I use on my Lowden - no problems in five years!
S:0)

Subject: RE: String Gauges
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 08:34 AM

"Mudcat strings"

Bloody heck, must have had a senile moment - meant 'skills' of course.

Subject: RE: String Gauges
From: Mooh
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 08:51 AM

It's easy enough to use medium guages on those strings which are tuned down from standard (ie 1, 2, & 6 in DADGAD), or get special DADGAD sets from the likes of Firewire Strings (I like them). Or be lazy like me and just use mediums for DADGAD figuring the little extra tension (if any) shouldn't harm anything (and indeed hasn't so far). Lots of folks don't mind slightly loose strings when tuned down, but I like something close to regular tension or more most of the time.

Multiple guitars is the permanent answer.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: String Gauges
From: Nick
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 09:29 AM

Personally don't like lights for DADGAD and definitely not for CGCGCE
- mediums (13 17 26 35 45 56) seem better IMHO. In open C the bottom string becomes too hard to tune and too easy to bend out of tune when playing if I try with lights

Subject: RE: String Gauges
From: Peace
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 09:46 AM

"If you're intending to stick with DADGAD, get some Newtone Masterclass specialised DADGAD sets."

Would you please talk more about these? It might remedy a problem I'm encountering on a guitar.

Subject: RE: String Gauges
From: redsnapper
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 09:58 AM

Malcolm Newton of Newtone Strings will make any custom gauge sets up you like and, in view of the popularity of DADGAD tuning, has a ready-made set for that with tensions adjusted to suit.

I've been using Newtones for a number of years and they are excellent strings. As they're wound on a round, rather than hex, core they tend to trap less moisuere and hence last well.

In Canada The Twelfth Fret sells them.

RS

Subject: RE: String Gauges
From: Peace
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 10:10 AM

Wow. Thank you very much, RS. Very much.

Subject: RE: String Gauges
From: Grab
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 10:12 AM

If it's Mr Lowden, general opinion is that 12s are usually best for standard tuning. Lighter, and they don't give enough oomph to drive the top; heavier, and they put more pull on the bridge which damps the top.

The issue is how much pull the strings exert on the bridge. If you *always* play in a particular tuning, then you might want strings to suit that specific tuning - so if your top string is always detuned to D, you might want a thicker top string to compensate. For most situations though, regular strings sound fine.

Graham.

Subject: RE: String Gauges
From: deadfrett
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 11:26 AM

Foolstroupe- If your into Autoharp you need to check out MelBay's
Atuoharp Owner's Manuel. It has a chart for subing strings when one breaks and at the price of a new set its worth the money. It also has loads of other info on repairs, building etc. Its about L19.95 according to their ad. Cheers - Dave

Subject: RE: String Gauges
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 11:36 AM

Redsnapper beat me to it!

Newtone DADGAD sets are far, far superior to simply using 'thicker' or 'medium' strings for the 1st, 2nd and 6th because (apart from their magical sound!) they have the SAME TENSION as is they were tuned at standard, so they don't feel like sloppy rubber bands - they feel R-I-G-H-T!! :-)

Lowden recommend 12's for their instruments, so Malcolm Newton and his guys will make you a set up EXACTLY the same gauges, and with the exact same tensions on each string as a standard set of 12's tuned at standard EADGBE.

They are the dog's bollocks, any other solution is a half-arsed compromise. A Lowden is a first-class, hand-made instrument - treat it with the respect it deserves, put the right strings on it! (and they aren't dear - around £6-80 a set, no more than D'Addorribles. :-)

Subject: RE: String Gauges
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 11:36 AM

I tried Newtones (standard tuning) on my Hagstrom J-45 (pegbridge, set-neck). My late wife used Martin bronzes 13-56 on it all the time I knew her until her fingers were too old for that and then she used 12-53s on it, but when she first got the guitar in 1964 she used nothing but Black Diamonds and stayed that way until the original Black Diamonds went off the market. I now use Elixir Nanoweb 12-56 on that guitar, but no matter what bottom string I use the bottom string does not sound the way I remember her playing sounded it. I didn't like the Newtones at all on that guitar. But I know a Martin player who uses tehm on his expensive Martins, and they do make an audible improvement on them.

Subject: RE: String Gauges
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 05:20 PM

That's a pretty handy Universal String Tension Calculator that Pete Standing linked to. And free. I've installed it and it should be useful.

One thing though - it gives string tensions as one of the variables (as well as scale length and gauge and note) - and that#s something I've never thought about, though obviously its important. Anybody got any suggestions as to how to go about deciding what the appropriate string tensions would be?

Subject: RE: String Gauges
From: van lingle
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 06:15 PM

John Pearse makes a set called New Medium in phosphor bronze which I find works well for Dadgad and Open-D. They're basically med. on the low string and the 2 high ones and gauged like lights on the A,D and B strings and cost about $6.50. I like the Newtones Dadgad set as well but they are pretty pricy. You can get them at Guitar Gallery for $9.00 a set if you buy 6 sets and $17.00 for individual sets. The Newtones do seem to last a good long time, though. Anybody find 'em any cheaper here in the States?

Subject: RE: String Gauges
From: van lingle
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 06:18 PM

That should read "...gauged like lights on the A,D and G strings...".

Subject: RE: String Gauges
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 06:43 PM

"Newtone Strings"..


over the last 10 -> 15 years i've occasionally needed to phone 'em for advice and suggestions

to kit out odd and even odder ideas for modded guitars and other stringed
'inventions' [????]..


guess i must have spoke direct to Malcolm every time..


i totaly respect the bloke..

he might not be cheap.. but he knows strings..

far better than the likes of the old fella at rotosound..

and young 'know alls' at similar UK big string names sellers..

Subject: RE: String Gauges
From: redsnapper
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 07:12 PM

Kevin,

I generally reckon on about 8 to 9 kgs tension for mandolin and 14 to 15 for guitar from experience.

But this other very useful string gauge calculator (the one I generally use for custom instruments) has a formula and applet that will help work out the ideal tension.

RS

Subject: RE: String Gauges
From: GUEST,theleveller
Date: 05 Oct 07 - 08:24 AM

I used D'Addarrio 13 - 56 on my Lowden 010C almost since I bought it (same as Martin Simpson uses on his Sobell) and they work well in every tuning I use. Never had any problems in over 10 years. But recently discovered Thomastik strings and they give a great sound. I know sme people don't like them as they give a very distinctive sound, but I love them!

Keep meaning to try Newtone - I use them on my cittern and they sound good.

Subject: RE: String Gauges
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Oct 07 - 10:17 AM

I was reading the small print on a strings pack(Newtone Phosphor Bronze) and it said "IMPORTANT Due to the design of these strings it is vital that the string is tuned to pitch before excess is cut off".

Well, I never seem to get round to cutting off the excess on strings anyway - I always tend to just coil the ends round. But I was puzzled to see how cutting off the excess could make this "vital" difference. Anybody got any explanation what's supposed to be going on?

Subject: RE: String Gauges
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 05 Oct 07 - 10:49 AM

Guest Randy, who asked the initial question, isn't back yet. Wonder where he went?

If you do re-appear, Randy, I have a thought for you. It is far easier to change the sound of your guitar by changing the pick than by changing the strings.

Take your guitar to a music store, plant yourself in front of the little cabinet full of picks, and try many types, both triangular picks and thumbpicks. Then take home a handful - well worth it for the little money they cost.

I don't like triangular picks myself and never use them. However, I love the way a thumbpick brings out rich bass notes when I'm finger-picking. (I got this idea by seeing Martin Wyndham Read do it.)

Subject: RE: String Gauges
From: redsnapper
Date: 05 Oct 07 - 02:47 PM

Yes Kevin,

That's because, on a round core, the winding doesn't grip so well as on a hex core so it's best to tune to pitch before trimming to ensure the string has locked round the tuning peg.

RS

Subject: RE: String Gauges
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 01:14 AM

I think this is where the complaint often heard about Newtone sets including occasional 'dead' strings arises - if you cut the excess off before tuning (which seems a weird thing to do, but ho-hum!) there's a strong possibility the winding will 'relax' or slacken, resulting in a 'dud' string when tuned up.

Tuning first and cutting when the string's up to pitch (which to a simple accountant like me seems the 'obvious' way anyway! In 45 years of playing guitar, I've never met anyone who cuts first, then tunes) will prevent, or at least minimise, the risk of that happening.

Coiling the excess is a good way of preventing slippage too, but I always think it looks scruffy - but that's a personal thang, and lots of guitarists like it. Whatever floats yer boat!
S:0)

Subject: RE: String Gauges
From: Peace
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 04:34 PM

Measure twice, cut once. Not the other way 'round.

Subject: RE: String Gauges
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Oct 07 - 05:11 AM

"Measure twice, cut once"

Sorry Peace, you got me there! Can you elucidate please?

I don't measure anything - I run the new string up through the post, pull tight, slacken back an inch (I guess that's kinda 'measuring'?), put the locking 'half-turn, under and twist back over' on, then tune up. When at pitch, cut the excess off. Et voila! Leaving the excess on until all else is done makes the pulling, slacking and locking much easier, IMHO.

But I'm always interested to hear others' perspectives.
S:0)

Subject: RE: String Gauges
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 07 Oct 07 - 10:43 AM

McGrath

There is no right string tension I would have thought except too much and too little. No doubt a particular guitar might respond best at a certain tension, but no doubt the player will also respond best at a certain tension too! So no help there I'm afraid. Longer scale lengths will have a higher tension and give better sustain, so when choosing a guitar it might be worthwhile getting the longest scale lenght that is comfortable.

I started off light and then as I got stronger, went heavier (partly too much beer though!) and enjoyed the better sustain and depth of tone that heavier strings seem to give. The heavier strings allow me to use altered tunings which with a large bodied guitar sound deep and resonant.

It's worthwhile checking with the maker what the limits are. When I had a Simon and Patrick guitar and a Fylde bouzouki, both responded to email requests about string tension.

Subject: RE: String Gauges
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 07 - 06:27 PM

"Measure twice, cut once"

That's the old carpenter rule - but it applies to most things. Basically it means, never do anything you can't undo until you've completed all the necessary things that you can undo or redo.

For example, read through what you've written before you push the submit button.

Subject: RE: String Gauges
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Oct 07 - 10:24 PM

..another variable

to take into consideration

is..

how many guitars do you own..?

how expensive were they..??

how experienced are you..???????????


if you only got 1 or 2 mega £££$$ super precious antique luthier string boxes..

then yes.. i guess this is something to get worked up very anxious
paranoid about..



but if you own more than 100 cheap shitty wooden string noise thingys

[including.. ok i confess i am an astute collector..
i own many
exceptional quality far east manufactured copies
far better quality than USA origional
big names beaters which play better and sound better than..]

then new string sets become an exorbitant luxury best bought in economical bulk orders..


i am a cheapskate pragmatist..
if i can get a guitar to set up buzz free
and well intoned at less than 3.5mm at the 12th fret
and the neck dont bannana out within the first 3 months..

i'm as happy as a new born piglet in cider gravy..

Subject: RE: String Gauges
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 05:30 AM

Thanks Kevin, I understand now! I guess that's what I've got built in to my stringing method - don't cut it until everything's done and correct!
Thanks again.
S:0)

Subject: RE: String Gauges
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 06:56 AM

I cut before I wind.

I put the sting in the bridge, and cut the string about an 3cm longer than the machine head. Next, put a right angle about 1cm from the end, feed through the post, make the first wind above the end and all others under. This helps to lock the string and prevent slipping.

Subject: RE: String Gauges
From: Grab
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 08:23 AM

McGrath, to expand on what RedSnapper said, the problem is the winding. On hex-core strings, the winding is nipped into the core at the corners, but that doesn't happen with round-core strings. So when you cut the string, there'll be more of a tendency for the winding to unravel. Once the string's fitted to the guitar, it isn't a problem if the little bit poking out of the tuner unravels, but if you cut the string before you fit it and the winding starts to unravel then, chances are pretty good that the whole lot will come undone once you've threaded it through the holes in the bridge (if you're on a Lowden or other pinless bridge) and tuner.

Graham.