why are people so nasty to singers?

Subject: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 02:03 AM

I had a mate who was an ambulance man, and he gave he gave it up eventually - he was such a good club entertainer. But while he was an ambulance man he worked that stretch of the M1 near Luton and consequently saw the results of traffic accidents every single working day.

I never knew a guy who so less full of bullshit.

One day we were chatting, and he put this strange idea to me. Why are people so nasty to people who can't do the job of entertaining very well? If they are crap, and people have a bad night - so what, nobody's dead. It really hardly matters at all.

Whereas, he said, he'd seen ambulance men who were so bad at their jobs that people had died as a result of them doing the wrong thing. Afterwards invariably the relatives came up and thanked the ambulance team for their efforts.

This week on mudcat, we've had people having a go at Ewan Maccoll, Alex Campbell - and now theres a thread saying nasty stuff about Big Tom, Daniel O'Donnel and his family, and Brendan Shine - all very popular entertainers who have given hours of pleasure to folk.

I can't understand it.

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Rowan
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 02:39 AM

Similar to the phenomenon known in Oz as the "tall poppy syndrome", and the subject of a Japanese proverb that intimates that the nail with its head above the board is the one to be whacked with a hammer.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 02:45 AM

WLD
Are you confusing 'being nasty' with discussing singers performances.
If somebody writes a book they will expect it to be scrurinised and discussed.
If a singer gets up in front of an audience they are putting themselves up for public scrutiny and if they are not up for that, maybe they should stay home and sing in the bath.
As far as I can see, folk singing is the only pastime where the participants appear to place themselves above criticism, and that cannot be good, either for the singer, who otherwise might be led to the idea that they are the greatest performer since Galicurci, nor for the audience member who has to sit there like a nodding dog and take anything that is given to them, no matter how bad.
Hopefully, criticism should be positive, but, as with singing, the vast majority of us are amateurs trying to do our best.
In my thirty odd years experience I can only recall two 'critics' I would have described as 'vicious' and they were both 'career critics', trying to make up for their own lack of talent by slagging off others - a rare breed, thanks be to jasus.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 02:48 AM

No one ever built a monument to a critic.

eric

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 02:59 AM

I've missed those nasty threads this weekend, I was off putting my head above the parapet and having far too much fun...



When I've slagged off a performer or someone, it's usually because they've done something that hurt or offended a person who didn't deserve it. I've heard some terrible drunken performances in my time, some by people who didn't have the excuse of being alcoholic but were just having a bad day. It happens.
It's been said by others here on this forum that maybe those being nasty about others are suffering from the Green-Eyed Monster. It's a theory... but it seems to me that more people have heard of those who are being slagged off, than have heard of the people doing the slagging.


LTS

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 03:23 AM

I think a lot of people have a vision of how they think things should be musically; and if anything clashes with that vision, then criticism arise.

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 03:41 AM

Whhat's said here is nothing compared to the mauling some popular entertainers get in the mainstream press... and I don't entirely buy the idea that if you've put yourself in the public domain it's open season.

If I were a reviewer and I went to review a gig and it was rubbish, it would be dishonest not to reflect that, even if I suspected the performer was just having what people are euphemistically calling a bad night. There'd be no need, other than pointless grandstanding, to be vicious or nasty about it, though. If I were there as a punter I'd probably walk out, because life's too short. If it was a really, really bad night I might even ask for my money back.

If I were an obiturist I'd want to give a fair and balanced overview of someone's life and acheivements: I wouldn't want to use the airbrush on them but I wouldn't want to turn a report into a massacre (unless they were a far right politician, for example!)

If I were a conributor to an online forum I wouldn't want to bang on about what I percieved to be the negative aspects of someone's performances and lifestyle - particularly if their positive contributions massively outshone these factors. And even more particularly if they were too dead to answer back.

The plus side of all this is that I now have to go out and find some Alex Campbell music to listen to (the joys of being a Johnny-come-lately). So can anyone be a darlin' and give me a couple of pointers as to where's a good place to begin?

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Rasener
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 03:52 AM

Don't we need to differentiate between a sing-around environment versus a concert environment.
If you go to a sing-around, you takes what you get. However if you pay to see a concert, you normally have an expectation that the performer(s) is/are capable of entertaining the audience in one way or another.
In all the concerts I have been to or put on, I cannot remember anybody performing badly. Ok maybe they could have performed better, but hey, we all have good and bad days.
What really bugs me, is when people say that a performer(s) is crap just because they don't like their style. I have seen many performers, some I have liked and some I totally disliked because I didn't like their style of music. That doesn't make them crap. I just don't bother to go and see them again. If somebody asks me what I think about a performer(s) who I don't like, I will readily admit to not liking, but then explain their style of music, so that the person can make their own mind up if they fancy seeing them.
Why oh why do people say that somebody is crap, when clearly they are not.
However, if a performer has the habit of going on stage drunk or on drugs or constantly cancel bookings or letting organisers down, then we are talking about a totally different thing.
I would be very very upset, if I turned up to a concert only to find that the artist(s) are badly under the influence. They shouldn't even be on stage. They have a responsibility to their audience. If that is a regular occurrence, organisers should not book them, after all the organiser has a responsibility to their audience as well.

What is disgusting is people publicly pulling other performers apart. That is just not acceptable. Especially as most of these people have a grudge or jealousy or don't like their style. Tell the performer (if they are still alive of course), don't try to ruin their career, just because you don't like them.

How many people haven't gone to a gig, because somebody had told them not to to go because they are crap, when indeed they were not their style.

I'll get me coat

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 05:09 AM

Well, Villan - if you ascribe it to the type of music then you get in to a "What is Folk" debate - as you and I have done!

By the way, how are you liking ADSL 24 so far? I have not yet taken the leap!

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Rasener
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 05:14 AM

Oh no don't start that one again Richard LOL.

As far as I am concerned ADSL24 is great and glad I moved.

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 05:27 AM

I don't feel that constructive criticism's a totally bad thing.

In many sinarounds/informal do's, the audience seem obliged to applaud at the end of a performance, irregardless of the quality.

Therefore, most performers have no way of judging wether their efforts were good or not.

I [& others] have been known to offer positive, helpful comments to others, if I/we felt their wasn't as good as it might've been.

Merely saying something like 'That was crap!' does nothing useful for anyone & just creates resentment & bad feelings.

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 05:55 AM

"In many sinarounds/informal do's, the audience seem obliged to applaud at the end of a performance, irregardless of the quality.
Therefore, most performers have no way of judging wether their efforts were good or not."

In singarounds and informal do's, I believe that applause is given for the effort made by the performer, not as an indicator of some kind of critical judgment of that performance. It's the only reward available to the (unpaid) performer.

S:0)

BTW and FWIW, 'irregardless' is a double-negative, and doesn't mean the same as 'regardless'. I fact it's the opposite - it means 'regardful' or 'having regard for'. I think you meant 'irrespective'.

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: lady penelope
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 06:02 AM

Subjectivity is a huge part of the question. Whether people percieve things to be 'good' or 'bad', be it the performance or the music itself, can't be anything other than subjective.

For example. I wouldn't go to a Kate Rusby gig if you paid me. I can't stand her voice and I dislike a lot of the material she does. Now, that does [b]not[/b] make her a bad singer. From a strictly technical point of view she is patently a good singer. I just don't like her voice. And just because I tend to dislike what material she chooses to perform, does not make it 'crap' music. In fact with some of the tradtional stuff I've been impressed with the arrangements she's performed them in. Kate Rusby is a good performer and musician. She's just not to my taste.

But an awful lot of people [b]do[/b] equate whether they personally enjoy something with whether it's 'good' or not.

On the other hand, I think it has to be taken into account, that professional performers do large numbers of gigs over the course of a career. Any one gig can only be a snapshot of that performer. A performance of any standard - no matter how good or bad, in that time and in that place. [u]But it's also a snapshot of the person watching them.[/u]

I've seen bands that I know I like and have come away feeling almost cheated at how uninspiring or unentertaining that band has been at that performance. But how much was it them having an off day and much much was it [b]me[/b] having a bad day?

How many acts have I seen that were pretty dire, but I've no desire to rubbish them in the least? Happy to give them the benefit of the doubt, that they might improve, that they were having a bad day. Because [b]I[/b] was in a good mood.

There's an interaction between audience and performer, that gives live music that buzz we all look for. Otherwise why would we bother? But it's not an exact science (thank goodness) and both performer and audience has to take their chances. Which is part of the frission that we want. If this is not what you want, why would you bother going to live performaces?

A certain level of objectivity is necessary when discussing performances and music. Realising that, although you may not have enjoyed what the person was performing or how they were doing it, does not automatically make that performance/performer 'bad'.

If a professional performer has performed poorly, an objective look at past performance (and the meer fact that they appear to earning a living must count for something...) would be the obvious comparison to make, before making a critisism.

Just declaring that someone is 'crap' because they didn't perform to your expectations (whatever they were) is not critisism. There's no reasoned observation and comparison to put a case as to why you thought the performance poor. It's just slagging someone off because you were dissapointed. Which is, frankly, childish.

And as for singarounds and open mike nights, getting performances that vary from appalling to rough around the edges to brilliant is part of the charm, you take the rough with the smooth. If you can't, don't go!

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 06:19 AM

Backwoodsman,

All my comments above are of course subjective, in the sense that they're my own opinion.

My main point here is that any performer, myself included, can benefit from feedback, in order that they may improve their delivery of their piece, rather than just empty clapping.

I've received some from you just now.

Also ' irregardless ' is one of my favourite 'non- words' - but all know what I mean 8-)

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: s&r
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 06:19 AM

Did you use the wrong brackets Lady P?

Stu

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: s&r
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 06:23 AM

This uses 'less than'/'greater than'

Subjectivity is a huge part of the question. Whether people percieve things to be 'good' or 'bad', be it the performance or the music itself, can't be anything other than subjective.

For example. I wouldn't go to a Kate Rusby gig if you paid me. I can't stand her voice and I dislike a lot of the material she does. Now, that does not make her a bad singer. From a strictly technical point of view she is patently a good singer. I just don't like her voice. And just because I tend to dislike what material she chooses to perform, does not make it 'crap' music. In fact with some of the tradtional stuff I've been impressed with the arrangements she's performed them in. Kate Rusby is a good performer and musician. She's just not to my taste.

But an awful lot of people do equate whether they personally enjoy something with whether it's 'good' or not.

On the other hand, I think it has to be taken into account, that professional performers do large numbers of gigs over the course of a career. Any one gig can only be a snapshot of that performer. A performance of any standard - no matter how good or bad, in that time and in that place. But it's also a snapshot of the person watching them.

I've seen bands that I know I like and have come away feeling almost cheated at how uninspiring or unentertaining that band has been at that performance. But how much was it them having an off day and much much was it me having a bad day?

How many acts have I seen that were pretty dire, but I've no desire to rubbish them in the least? Happy to give them the benefit of the doubt, that they might improve, that they were having a bad day. Because I was in a good mood.

There's an interaction between audience and performer, that gives live music that buzz we all look for. Otherwise why would we bother? But it's not an exact science (thank goodness) and both performer and audience has to take their chances. Which is part of the frission that we want. If this is not what you want, why would you bother going to live performaces?

A certain level of objectivity is necessary when discussing performances and music. Realising that, although you may not have enjoyed what the person was performing or how they were doing it, does not automatically make that performance/performer 'bad'.

If a professional performer has performed poorly, an objective look at past performance (and the meer fact that they appear to earning a living must count for something...) would be the obvious comparison to make, before making a critisism.

Just declaring that someone is 'crap' because they didn't perform to your expectations (whatever they were) is not critisism. There's no reasoned observation and comparison to put a case as to why you thought the performance poor. It's just slagging someone off because you were dissapointed. Which is, frankly, childish.

And as for singarounds and open mike nights, getting performances that vary from appalling to rough around the edges to brilliant is part of the charm, you take the rough with the smooth. If you can't, don't go!

Stu

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 06:24 AM

'I!'

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 06:25 AM

This question from the man who said -

I think 'traditional' music is a load of bullshit. An insult to my intellect. Nobody handed this pile of rubbish down to me.

Not just a singer but an entire genre.

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 06:26 AM

Tee-hee!

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: GUEST,Darowyn
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 07:16 AM

There seem to be a whole series of reasons.
Lizzie said "jealousy", and she is right, but part of it seems to be a feeling that the artists in question are sucessful, but don't deserve to be. Perhaps because their music is simple and easily accessible to the general public, the critic feels that this is a result of a lack of talent or seriousness. The way in which "popular" performers like Daniel O Donnell or Kenny G are reviled typify this motivation.
As the Villan says, far too many people are unable to make the disinction between "I don't like it" and "It's bad music".
There is great music I don't like (Mahler or Nine Inch Nails for example) and rubbish that I love (Jonathan Richman or Old Rock and Roll Ballads).
Then there is the underlying idea that only a good person can make good music. If you follow this line of reasoning, you despise the music of people whose lifestyle or opinions you disapprove of.
The truth is, you can make excellent music with people you can barely bear to speak to, and people whose views you despise can blow you away with their music.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 07:21 AM

The truth is, you can make excellent music with people you can barely bear to speak to, and people whose views you despise can blow you away with their music.

... and I've made some rubbish music with some of the nicest people I know!

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 07:28 AM

Somewhere I read the great comment that critics bear the same relationship to artists as astronomers to the stars:

They can tell people what the stars are doing, but they have no business and no power to tell the stars what to do.


Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 08:20 AM

Mr. Happy - aaaagghh! You got me! :-)

Sorry for my misunderstanding! :-)

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 08:40 AM

To be honest mate I think it is because people are cruel or think their opinions are more imprtant than the feelings of anyone else.
They may dress it up in some way to appear to be being reasonable but that is my opinion.
I am with Villan on the "Just because I dont like it doesnt mean its crap" thing
I think if you go,even pay to go see someone who is not up to your own high standard on the day,you should applaud and be kind.

It suprises me how many people who dont ever perform think you are in desperate need of their opinion.
Most of those that do(perform) know if they played ok or sang flat and want to be told thank you mate I enjoyed that.
Some of us are our own worst critics and dont need anyone to tell us.

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 08:53 AM

well Mr Mollusc

I never said I didn't like anybody. Or even that I didn't like traditional music. Its just not the way to go for me, and apparently not for all that many other people.

My father in law and mother in law went to to see the late great Peter Bellamy perform, and couldn't make head nor tail of his drift. they didn't say anyting though, they didn't express themselves.

I think on reflection - its bad manners that offend me.

But your allowed to think your own thoughts, and express them - in a generalised sort of way.

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 09:19 AM

It takes a lot of guts to get up in front of a bunch of strangers and sing; especially unaccompanied.
Encouragement can do wonders, constructive criticism should be accepted for what it is. Downright nastiness can destroy people's confidence.
My usual response is 'come up here and show me how it should be done then' if I get a real tosser.
I'm usually met with embarrassed shuffling...

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: topical tom
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 09:41 AM

As far as music critics go, for the most part I ignore their comments. I am well able to judge whether I like a performance or not.I admit that constructive criticism, rendered in a non-offensive manner, does have merits, though.
    That said, I have attended quite a number of folk festivals and it has been my experience that folk audiences are courteous and appreciative.Their harshest criticism is manifested by polite applause.I don't feel that they are "mean" to singers.

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 10:35 AM

There's nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 10:41 AM

I tend to agree. folk audiences are usually courteous. Certainly compared to the working mens clubs and pubs where I gigged for many years.

However, I don't think Alex and Ewan and Big Tom really need postive criticism at this point in the game - even when proffered by the knowledgeable people on mudcat.

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Santa
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 10:54 AM

When Cromwell had his portrait painted, he wanted it "warts and all". Posterity does not benefit from bowdlerised versions of history. If a singer (no particular on in mind) was drunk at times, or excessively foul-mouthed, or ignored his audience, then that's part of the performer as well has his generosity, fine voice, and musical skills.

The dead don't need positive or negative criticism: but the living deserve the full story.

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: GUEST,Mad Jock
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 11:00 AM

Whats the difference between HIV and a critic?













Sometimes HIV is positive!

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 11:05 AM

'"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat."'

Theodore Roosevelt

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 11:36 AM

Jesus, Peace, folk clubs must be scary places where you live!

Nigel

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 11:41 AM

Roosevelt clearly never sat through some of the toe-curlingly awful singarounds that I've endured. Singarounds featuring performers for whom the kindest recognition would not be a polite round of applause but a canvas jacket with very long sleeves...

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 11:48 AM

Nigel, it's a real SOB to do a set dressed like this. We got tought critics here

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Ernest
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 02:29 PM

Peace,
we are talking folk here, not heavy metal ;0)

Ernest

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 02:34 PM

But I'll bet the reverb. and acoustics through the helmet are amazing!

As I think I have opined elsewhere....those who can, sing. Those who can't, carp! Except, of course for those lovely people in my last audience! They were courtly and appreciative!

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 02:43 PM

Darowyn - please don't call me Lizzie - apart from the fact that when I was called that 25 years ago, I spelled it with a 'y'; I am not and have never been the other 'Lizzie' who is banned and some folks have been getting us mixed up.

LTS

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 02:44 PM

I can't sing but I'm buggered if I'm going to swim around a pond all day...

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Tootler
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 03:00 PM

Roosevelt clearly never sat through some of the toe-curlingly awful singarounds that I've endured. Singarounds featuring performers for whom the kindest recognition would not be a polite round of applause but a canvas jacket with very long sleeves...

A fine example of the kind of negative comment that is being discussed, mostly politely, in this thread.

Capt. Ginger.

What have you done to help those "toe curlingly awful" performers to improve?

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 03:12 PM

LTS - don't blame Darowyn. The "jealousy" post was actually Lizzie C's, but it seems to have been deleted....

Kitty

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 03:52 PM

Ah, that explains a lot, although confusing because I mentioned the Green Eyed Monster in my posting. Sorry Darowyn.

Frankly, I'm getting sick of being mistaken for Lizzie C... it's happening a little too often. Just remember, even though they perform a lot in my ancestral village of Abbotsbury, I am not that fond of Show of Hands! I like them; I've never seen them do a bad or drunken show, they're obviously kind to children, animals and the mentally unstable, but I can't remember the last time I felt the urge to deify them.


LTS

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 04:34 PM

What have you done to help those "toe curlingly awful" performers to improve?
At various times I have suggested; learning a song rather than reading it from a sheet of paper, practising it, trying to find a song more suited to the singers' voice, singing something other than a 42-verse dirge in a time-limited and raucous pub session and even taking up mime or macrame rather than singing.
The fact is, there are some people who like to sing but who are absolutely bloody awful. It's the price we pay for the 'inclusivity' of fok, I suppose. For myself, that's when I take myself off to the bar, go and have a prolonged pee or find an old mate to natter with. I'm afraid I don't do the warmy, huggy "everyone's equal in song" schtick. I get precious few opportunities to enjoy a decent singaround, and get pissed off by the care-in-the-community noodlers and mumblers with absolutely no talent who have clearly never been subject even to constructive criticism.
Yes, we all start somewhere - I started in the bathroom and the garden shd and worked my way up to singers' nights at my local folk club and it was a long time before I felt able to sing in a public session - but some folk seem to take the piss out of the courtesy of the average folk gathering.

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 05:00 PM

Isn't this the nature of the beast, Captain Ginger. I suppose I used to get offended many years ago - when I had worked really hard at what I did, but was cold shouldered as though I had 'sold out' whilst someone reading a traddy piece from an exercise book (and getting that wrong) would be treated to rapturous applause.

Some people feel that that is what 'the tradition' and the purpose of a folk club is. And just by singing the old songs in any fashion they can manage, they are doing something valuable. And who are we to say they're wrong?

like I say - its not the way, the truth, and the light for me - or by the sound of it, for you. But I think we're outnumbered on mudcat. And you have to respect a majority decision - even if you can't agree with it.

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 06:13 PM

Eric the Red (and the person he's quoting - Sibelius?) is wrong - they *did* put up a statue to a critic:

http://www.edinphoto.org.uk/3/3_pss_members_wilson_stereo_cards_-_602_wilsons_statue_edinburgh.htm

It's still there.

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 06:18 PM

Captain Ginger - why not form a club with the Countess? There you can get together and tell everyone who wants to sing that they are not "Good enough for Folk"?

Good luck keeping members.

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Bert
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 09:55 PM

I have noticed that really good singers and musicians never put down others and are always supportive.

I went to workshop one time where Tom Paxton was critiquing our songs. It was pretty typical as sessions go with efforts ranging from brilliant to bloody awful. Out Tom didn't have a bad word to say to anyone. Every comment was very positive and kind.

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 03:36 AM

yeh Tom didn't have to sit through them every week though....

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 04:30 AM

I sometimes think (not very often - but I do sometimes) why are people so NICE to some singers? Elton John or David Bowie, for example?

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 04:36 AM

Elton John or David Bowie, for example?

Which sinarounds do they frequent?

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 05:25 AM

I gave up listening to folk albums round about the time Peter Bellamy died, prefering instead to listen to folk songs (traditional or otherwise) in the context of folk clubs & singarounds, sung by everyday common or garden folkies who sing for the love of it rather than for any notion of professionalism or celebrity status.

What makes a good singer is more than their ability to sing - some of my favourite singers are what many would call 'bad' singers; what makes them interesting (and therefore good) is their passion for the material & the consequent corporeal authenticity which which they bring to it, even if that isn't immediately obvious to the casual punter.

I recently heard a professional singer calling many of the songs on the 'Music of the People' CDs 'hard going'. Well, far from easy listening anyway, but although many of these songs are taken from long-deleted LPs (such as the amazing John MacDonald : The Singing Molecatcher of Morayshire & Felix Doran : The Last of the Travelling Pipers) they remain, one would hope, documents, rather than products. I can't resist the tale of Davie Stewart busking the punters for one of his Cecil Sharp gigs as they queued to get in...

Source singers notwithstanding, surely the song is a good deal more important than the singer? All that matters is that the song is sung with all due respect & conviction even if the singer is a 'bad' singer in terms of conventional musicality. But since when did conventional musicality throw up anything worth listening to? In this world increasing corporate musical blandness (on all fronts) I delight in listening to someone who can't sing, but who does sing, simply for the pure sweet joy of the song in their hearts.

There can never be enough singers, and if people feel the need to sing, then needs must we respect that, even if it means broadening our critical parameters to do so. God knows I've developed one hell of a stiff-upper lip over the years training my facial muscles not to laugh in singarounds, but the beauty of it is right there in front of you - plain and simple: a living breathing human being (as oppose to a trained-up professional musician whose humanity I might personally question) doing something as beautiful as singing a song.

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 05:51 AM

very nicely put - Sedayne

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 01:52 PM

Can't argue with that, Sedayne!

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Ernest
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 04:30 PM

Maybe Elton, John and David Bowie are treated nicely just BECAUSE they never attended any singaround....

Are those three brothers btw? ;0)

Ernest

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 06:31 PM

"I have noticed that really good singers and musicians never put down others and are always supportive."

Well, if they're all that great, they're used to listening to folks who are less talented than themselves, and they've had time to develop an appropriate attitude. It can be relatively easy to be gracious when you've achieved a bit of success yourself.

Folks in the fair-to-middlin' category may display their negative reactions not simply out of jealousy or small-mindedness, but perhaps more forgivably, from feeling "I'm way better than that fool, and I don't get much appreciation."

******************

Very nice statement from Sedayne; I would elaborate thusly:

Many vocalists who lack conventionally "good" voices can be really excellent singers of certain kinds of songs, because they can very effectively communicate the feeling at the heart of their songs. I would suggest that many famously successful folk and blues artists meet this description. Even instrumental playing can be technically flawed while at the same time emotionally compelling or otherwise effective in some regard.

On the other hand, we've all been subjected to performances that are off-key, inappropriate in volume (either weak or too damn loud) AND at the same time completely UN-expressive of any discernible human feeling. That's when it can be very difficult to respond positively, or even diplomatically!

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Tootler
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 06:48 PM

When I started going to folk clubs recently I was in sympathy with some of the comments about some singers in singarounds that have been made here. However, as I listened to the various singers on a regular basis I began to realise that all singers had some merit in them. There is almost always something that you can find positive in a performance of a song if you listen for it.

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: michaelr
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 07:25 PM

Where is the thread slagging off Daniel O'Donnell? I missed that, and want to contribute.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 03:29 AM

there you michaelr

its this one

Lyr Req: Four Country Roads (from Big Tom)

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 04:12 AM

As someone who has the singing voice of a dalek that's been set on fire and trapped in a drain, I beg to differ with the 'there's merit in everyone's singing' point of view. There's absolutely no merit in mine. Sincerely wish I could tell you any dfferent, but there you go. As a school music teacher told me when I was 11 years old, you can't turn a frog into a canary...

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Ross
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 04:36 AM

Blimey - everyone's got it in for the Daleks

Next you'll be saying - 'what did the Daleks ever do for us'?

Even Tom Baker resolved to let them live (episode 28982 - Daleks go crazy up Uranus)

Paul McCartney did the Frog song

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Green Man
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 10:36 AM

Interesting debate, My wife and I ran a folk session/singaround in Herefordshire for years which was always well attended. We had some terrific singers and we had some who were not terrific. We learn't from a particularly good singer how to go about encouraging people who werent 'quite there' yet.

Criticism has its place in development, the means by which it's delivered is important. I have (as MC) said 'that was crap' after a clearly superb performance by a well known singer and got a big laugh from the crowd. Following it with a comment like Well! who is brave enough to follow that!

I wouldn't do it to a singer who was really not good or confident enough to handle it and in situations where criticism would do some good would say what I thought face to face either privately or out of earshot of most other people. Critics all too often do not have anything constructive to add to their judgement. In such cases I too would ask them to 'show us all how it's done'. During my time involved in the folk scene in the UK I have seen shrinking violets come into bloom with powerful results. The guiding hand of a sensitive criticism along with a suggested solution to the perceived problem is more often than not taken on board and acted upon. I will not name names but there are many people who came to our club and went away enriched by the experience.

Not everyone is nasty to singers, some people just do not know enough about what they are criticising to be constructive.

GM

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 10:51 AM

Nigel - Clarence "Frogman" Henry had several hits.

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Y_Not
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 12:33 PM

The great thing about folk clubs over the years is they have been a breeding ground for new talent, where a fledgling performer can develop their art and their craft.

David Mamet says in his book True and False, the performer should take criticism and praise with a pinch of salt, both can be biased and misleading.
The artist should have their own yard stick and an objective measure of their talent, capabilities and limitations, if this is achieved, then praise and criticism true or false can never inflate or erode your worth as a creative artist.

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 05:11 PM

I have played music for over 50 years and have never learned anything useful from a
music critic except that they are generally wrong.

Take George Bizet. "Carmen" was slammed as a failed opera.

Nicholas Slonimsky (am I getting his name right?) wrote a book of music criticisms
over the years. It's very revealing.

There are sadistic people who enjoy dissing performances. Why? Probably they are
frustrated performers themselves who do not want to pay the dues to get good at it.
So they criticize others.

Singers are very vulnerable. It's so easy to diss them if you are a jerk.

Frank

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Marje
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 12:00 PM

Yes, singers are vulnerable, and because we know that, we're generally kind to each other and try to avoid hurt feelings. However, there are some bad singers who are painful to listen to and who are apparently unaware of this. I don't mean singers who are a little nervous or a bit rough around the edges, and just neeed a bit of reassurance. I mean the ones who show little respect for either the melody or the words, or indeed the audience; the ones who can't be bothered to even start to learn the words, or to learn to tune their guitars, or to find a key that suits the song so they end up squeaking or growling their way through it; the ones who simply can't carry a melody ... oh I could go on, but most clubs have a few black sheep like this. What are we to do about it?
Offering constructive criticism sounds like a good idea, but there is rarely any opportunity to do this. I really don't feel I can go up to someone, uninvited, and say, "That's a good song, but the reason we didn't join the chorus was that we couldn't really make out the tune", or "Would it help if you sharpened up that top E-string?", or "Have you thought of working out a good key and a way of finding it when you start to sing?".
When there are local singing workshops offering a chance to consider and improve one's performance, these people are invariably absent - they seem to believe that they have a homespun charm that will be lost if they give any formal attention to their singing.
We can, of course, ignore them, leaving the room on some pretext if it's all too awful. We can clap politely and tell ourselves that inclusivity is what it's all about. As the original post says, it's not a matter of life and death.
But the life of our folk clubs could well be at stake. When new visitors, particularly younger ones, venture into a club, we shouldn't be surprised if they don't come back if they are presented with a programme containing too high a proportion of tuneless droning and inaudible lyrics. I don't know how the problem can best be addressed, but I think it needs to be.

Marje

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 12:14 PM

A good wheeze with an out of tune guitar is to ask to try it out (flattery) then kidnap it long enough to tune it. If it has a playablity problem, suggest a good local guitar fettler.

Tactless as I am I often suggest to unaccompanied singers that they carry a pitch-wheel.

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 01:55 PM

Hello,

If you provide a venue where anyone can make a contribution...then you must be prepared to take the rough with the smooth....(think local pub karaoke!)

Always remember the international golden rule!

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 02:15 PM

Why are people so nasty to singers? There's no banjo player available?

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 04:27 PM

Marje does make a good point. I have sometimes hesitated when it comes to introducing friends to folk music because I have inwardly cringed at the thought of their comments on some of the truly dreadful floor singers one gets.
It does seem to be unique to folk (though poetry slams are not far off) - jazz, blues; almost any other style seems to demand a degree of competance and commitment from a would-be performer. The 'good enough for folk' mentality is hard to shift from traditional music, however. The folk world is so bloody, maddeningly, uncritically tolerant (except, of course, of intolerance!).

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Bert
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 06:16 PM

In my experience the GOOD/BAD ratio at clubs and circles is vastly better that that found on the radio or TV. It has also been improving over the last few years, so that rarely now does one hear someone who is really awful.

I think the problem is that the bad ones stick out like a sore thumb.

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 06:18 PM

When a singer/musician makes my teeth ache, I leave. Never have said anything nasty to a singer about his/her music.

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 06:21 PM

Of course, I have heard myself on a bad day and it ain't pretty.

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 06:37 PM

I would never walk out on a singer in a singaround if the singer has memorized the song--I have a lot of respect for anybody who has memorized a song. If the singer is reading it off a sheet, the required standards go way up. And with Rise Up Singing--I'm gone--probably as soon as the book comes out.

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 07:02 PM

There is a vast difference of opinion in the folk community as to what constitutes
good singing. There are a lot of head-strong opinions that generally have to do with
cultural and ideological tastes.

For example, what would folkies say to the fact that Barry Manilow has a good voice?

Or Tom Waits sounds like a growling cub?

People are sometimes nasty to singers for which they have ideological differences based on image, presentation etc.

Out of tuneness may not be a prescription for disaster if other elements are there such as
an engaging peformer, an understanding of the lyric etc.

Coming back to the original topic, there are some people who are just plain nasty for personal reasons.

Frank

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 07:28 PM

When did Barry Manilow last sing a folk song?

Or Tom Waits (btw, you are wrong, he sounds like a very big bear indeed!).

Plenty of floor singers, me included, are actually pretty bad. But we're often a whole lot better than our critics.

The time to worry is when people start "You have a good voice". Since I know I haven't (but I figure out ways to make it work, sometimes) I know there has to be the sting in the tale coming.

Last time it happened was at a session at a festival, when everyone else wanted to play humpty and I was the only singer, but still wanted my turn - they were trying to figure out how to tell me to shut the F*** up.

Time before that a certain joker here told me he'd meet me at a club (a place I didn't know) that (he said) was pretty traditional song with variations. Suited me... But it was a wind up and as a stranger in town I walked into a club that was pure country (which I hate). Well, you know the country ethos - - - good ole boys - - - so they couldn't very well say "Sod off you sing English" (it being in the middle of England, roughly) so I got the version with the butter first.

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: RTim
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 07:31 PM

Because they can't Sing!!!!

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Nickhere
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 07:39 PM

I blame recorded music available on tap from CDs, downloads etc., People have got used to idea of music sounding a particular way every time they listen to it and some find it difficult to tolerate anything that doesn't fit their programmed profile. In the past music probably sounded quite different every time it was performed, even with musical notation. We know the troubaodrs of the 12th and 13th ecnturies were expected to improvise and improve on songs and there was really no set standard. Plus you can the effect even if you listen to recordings of different orchestras playing the same piece of classical music. Thus some people expect you to reproduce the effect of a whole band on a single acoustic guitar, and you'd like remind them even Rory Gallagher had a bass player and drummer. I generally find the worst critics are those who play no instrument themselves and think it's a doddle. Still, they deserve a good show and I generally would never 'answer back' even if someone said a particular song didn't sound that great. I wouldn't let it get under my skin, I'd just make a mental note that they might be at least partially right and resolve to put a bit more practice into it for the future. And of course anyone can have a bad night when the instrument and you are just out of tune with each other, for some reason!

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 07:44 PM

Tom Waits is a great example of a 'bad' 'good' singer. Love 'im, personally. Barry Manilow, if you ignore his awful songwriting and cheesy personna is a 'good' but arsecrushly dull/bland singer. So, Frank, I think I know where you're coming from, but would have chosen a better example of a great non-folk singer: howsabout Scott Walker or Terry Callier or (ulp! sticking mah neck out!) Glenn Campbell...

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 07:49 PM

Glen Campbell was really good, IMO. Love many of his songs but my favourite would be "Galveston" from the late 1960s.

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 07:56 PM

A good singer who couldn't sing? Alexis Korner. Eartha Kitt. Burly Chassis (a) flat and (b) late - but with a certain magic.

A great "non-folk" singer? Hmm, lots of choice here. Lena Horne? Count John McCormick? No, the best! Desmond Dekker! His timing was absolute perfection, and he just poured tone on.

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 07:59 PM

Peace - Galveston is a stone classic. I'd also add 'Where's the playground, Susie', 'By the time I get to Phoenix' and so it's not the Jim Webb show, GC's versions of Buffy St Marie's 'Universal Soldier' and dunno who wrote it's 'Mary in the Morning'. Damn! When I finish listening to Coope, Boyes and Simpson, I'm getting out my copy of 'Glenn Campbell: The Capitol Years'...

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 09:47 PM

Yeah. Me too now. Cheers back to ya, Nigel.

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 10:18 PM

Regarding "Mary in the Morning", Nigel:

Words & Music by Johnny Cymball & Mike Lendell.

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Y_Not
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 06:58 AM

Was it coincidence that Barry Manilow and Tom Waits were mentioned as an example?

Barry Manilow was asked in a TV chat interview a few years ago, I think it may have been Parkinson, who did he rate as a singer/songwriter?
I was amazed when Manilow said Tom Waits. (a bit of useless trivia)

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 07:26 AM

Rosie Hardman used to have this thing about Barry Manilow - she even wrote a song about him.

Rosie was a pretty damn good judge of songwriting and singing - being no slouch herself.

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 02:06 PM

It all comes down to opinion and I would say opinionated opinion. Everyone in the music field selects his/her own special prison whereby to place the artist.

Some say Waits is a great singer, others say he sucks. The same with Manilow.

What some call bland, others would call romantic. What some say a singer sounds like someone in the throws of constipation, others would call it earthy or somehow honest.

So much psychological conditioning enters the arena.

Some would say certain trad singers sound like they're singing off-key.
Some would say they are singing quarter tones.

Everyone seems to have a personal horse in the race. I think this attention to
defense of a personalized taste seems to affect objectivity here.

Frank

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 03:15 PM

Only once constipation is cured can you "throw" it!

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 04:54 PM

Spiers and Boden doing Waits' "Innocent When You Dream" is excellent. Do a search on YouTube and be prepare to smile and be impressed. Good snogwriter, that Waits.

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: cptsnapper
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 05:34 PM

A few years ago I was at the Wakefield festival & there was a guy there who really wasn't that good a singer or player BUT what he gave to the audience was wonderful.
A good few years before that I was reading a letter in Folk Roots in someone was talking amongst other things about the diversity on the folk world & who said that as far as he was concerned if people wanted to listen to Chinese folk music that was fine by him as long as he didn't have to listen to me. So, of course I spoke to Ian Anderson about my forthcoming album of Chinese folk music............

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Green Man
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 09:56 AM

Lots of sensible comment, mainly constructive and certainly amusing in places. Please come and run the British Government, :)

I am at best mediocre and some times sing a bit flat, the best hint I ever had was when a friend caught my eye, tapped his ear and pointed skyward. It instantly made me focus and of course not wanting to be flat corrected the situation.

No words exchanged and all was well. No body said 'god you were flat in that song'! I guess people generally are too nice or deaf.

I like Chinese music, and Arabic Music and particularly Romanian and Czech music. Quarter tone scales take a bit of getting used to but it's worth the effort. Of course if like me you tend to sing flat you're halfway there anyway.. :)

GM

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Clownfish
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 07:12 AM

I am lucky to have never experienced people being nasty to singers. I agree that if a person purports to be a professional singer and charges accordingly, that it is OK to criticise and regret paying to hear them. What I love about folk singarounds is the mix of styles and levels and the extraordinary warmth and support. No folkie was born a brilliant performer.

At a singalong at a recent festival in Australia a young woman sang her version of Song for Ireland almost entirely off-key but her delivery and enthusiasm made the audience applaud wildly. I really think she will get more out of that experience than from a dissertation on her failings and ways to remain in tune.

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 08:17 AM

I've come across some choice inter-club bitchiness in my time, with one faction of imperfect singers openly pouring scorn upon another, often resulting in a certain difficult atmosphere.

Attitude is invariably disproportionate to ability; that said some of my favorite floor singers are as arrogant as they are tuneless, but given that the provenance of their arrogance is the seriousness which they take their craft (a seriousness which invariable comes through in their performance no matter how dodgy their intonation) then I try not to let it bother me too much.

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 04:02 PM

On the other hand - why are some singers nasty to anybody who suggests that they might not be god's gift to the world?
If you an't stand the heat................
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 11:31 PM

two/thirds of the "singers" in my experience:

Have been arrogant boars/bitchs

The audience knew it....the accompaniment knew it..... even their "sugar" daddy/tit knew it....

And we all knew who was getting IT....

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

There ain't no "tip-jar" on the finer gigs.

September/October Beer Fests are enough to knock your kickerbockers off!!!! Should be able to check in daily on the young sprouts.....until the Holidays.