When did 'sight reading' begin?

Subject: When did 'sight reading' begin?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 12:19 PM

I find it extraordinary that I can look at print and interpret it and so understand what somebody has 'written'.

I find it even more so that I can, at a very basic level, stare at the musical dots and find my fingers playing a tune.

When did sight reading begin?

Subject: RE: When did 'sight reading' begin?
From: MMario
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 12:26 PM

probably about 5 minutes after someone figured out how to notate music.

Subject: RE: When did 'sight reading' begin?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 12:27 PM

One of the well-known accolades of Henry the 8th mentions that he "sings from the book at sight".

Subject: RE: When did 'sight reading' begin?
From: MMario
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 12:35 PM

BTW- I *wish* I could.

I can, with some effort,figure out what notes are repesented;
however they do not translate in my mind into music of any sort. I've never been able to equate the 'name' of a note with the sound of a note.

Then there are people like my niece and nephew - both of whom can glance at sheet music and "hear" the music.

Subject: RE: When did 'sight reading' begin?
From: Bernard
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 12:35 PM

Gregorian Chant dates back to the 4th century, and isn't too different from modern notation, except only 4 lines were used. Rhythm was only approximately represented, though... there was room for 'interpretation'!

It's also the origin of the symbols we now use for sharp, flat and natural, as the only note to be altered was B. This was to change the 'Devil's Interval' from F natural to B natural.

B became H, and B flat became B - which is still the norm in many European countries.

Gregorian Chant also saw the formalisation of modes. Hard to believe it was more than 2000 years ago!

Subject: RE: When did 'sight reading' begin?
From: Bernard
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 12:37 PM

I'm one of those fortunate people who can read music and 'hear' it in my head. I think this is because I learned to read music initially by singing in the school choir...

Subject: RE: When did 'sight reading' begin?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 12:44 PM

I learned music on the guitar a bit and tried to play tunes from songs books. They never really sounded like tunes because most songs don't much of a tune.

About 6 years ago (BCE) I started to learn jigs and such like from the dots on a newly aquired mandola. Within about a year I could get a tune of the page after 2 or 3 tries. I think the reason is jigs go 123, 123, 123 diddly, duddly, diddly and so on - and so that tune gets of the page quite quickly - if only I had learned this before the war!

Did people in Greece, China Egypt or Central America leave us any dots?

Subject: RE: When did 'sight reading' begin?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 01:03 PM

Gregorian chant can't possibly date back "more than 2000 years." That would be before, or very shortly after, the birth of Christ. Christianity was well established in Rome and western Europe by the time there was any liturgical music that could be named for a Pope Gregory. 1500 years, at most, would be closer to the truth.

I can't sightread, not on my instrument and certainly not vocally. Wish I could. I know enough about standard notation to be able to slowly and laboriously figure out a melody from sheet music.

I do a little better with guitar tablature, if it's any good, because well-written tablature includes all the information provided by standard notation plus it shows where on the guitar to play each note. Problem is, there's a lot of very poorly assembled tab out there on the Web these days...

Subject: RE: When did 'sight reading' begin?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 01:11 PM

Garner Read's Music Notation - A Manual of Modern Practice gives a short introduction to the history of (Western) music notation, which I'll try to summarise here.

He gives the earliest as about 3000 years ago - a Greek system using letters to denote pitches (using rotations and reversals to indicate alterations in the basic pitch, as we'd use sharp and flat signs). By the 4the Century AD this had 4000 signs and symbols!

Boethius in the 6th century designated the 15 notes of a 2-octave span by the 1st 15 letter of the Latin-Greek alphabet.

Many systems were tried in the 8th-14th centuries, but the most significant was neumes which essentially outlined the melodic shape of a melody and came to replace alphabet systems in Christian plainchant. They were inexact however and served more as reminder than the giving the actual melody.

This deficiency was only solved with varying degrees of immeduate success by the invention of staff lines and the codification of rhythm.

A 9th century book Musica Enchiriadis invented the use of a 6-line staff and placed the syllables of the text in the spaces, the spaces marked at the start by symbols indicating whole-tone or half-tone to the next space. (Duration was still not notated). This one staff examples was forgotten until the 10th century when a single pitch-line was hailed as a great invention! Staves of 5 and 6 lines did not appear until the 12th century. The single-line stave (marking a pitch to which neumes were related by being placed above or below it) was used in Latin plainchant and gradually more lines were added fixing more pitches. 4 lined had appeared by the 12th C and that is still used in Catholic liturgical music.

Symbols for note duration developed slowly between 13thC and 17thC and the modern 5-line stave and note symbols did not become standard until well into the 17thC. Additions (accents, slurs, dynamic and tempo markings) were still being refined during the following century.


So you could say that the history of sight reading goes back 3000 years in it's vaguest form (where you would have had to have some familiarity with the tune already) or perhaps only 300 or 400 years to a system that allowed you to play accurately something you'd never seen before. (Tablature systems used by lutes, vihuelas and other string instruments, which while not modern staff notation fulfilled the same function also come in at this last distance)

I've left out a lot of details even from the summary in the book, but it should give you an outline.

Mick

Subject: RE: When did 'sight reading' begin?
From: GUEST,Jim Dixon
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 02:12 PM

I always thought it was kind of silly that they called it "sight reading". What other kind of reading is there? Well, there's braille, if you're blind, but I don't think that's what people have in mind.

Subject: RE: When did 'sight reading' begin?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 03:18 PM

It's called "sight reading" not as opposed to reading-without-seeing, but to indicate that you can read and decipher the notation immediately upon seeing it, and can sing or play as you read ~ as opposed to scratching your head and figuring things out so that you can eventually sing or play the notated music after a period of study and practice.

Many of who are unable to truly, literally "sight-read" are able to use musical notation "as a reminder" of just how to sing/play a piece with which we are basically familar but that we do not have down cold. Like glancing at the notes in a hymnal while singing along with the choir...

Subject: RE: When did 'sight reading' begin?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 04:04 PM

To be able to "sight read/sing" is a very valuable tool for musicians. I remember talking to Nic Jones many years ago, and he said he'd often find his way into libraries while touring the country and his ability to sight read meant he could go through collections of folksongs and "hear" all the melodies. I'd have to sneak my guitar in the back door!

Subject: RE: When did 'sight reading' begin?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 04:30 PM

with respect to reading ..
it was the Venerable Bede (7th century England) that was noted for being able to read without speaking the words out loud..

Subject: RE: When did 'sight reading' begin?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 04:32 PM

Re the Devil's Interval, it's not a note but a gap of three tones between notes. A diminished 5th (or, if you like, an augmented 4th). Transpose a part by three tones and play against what was written originally and you get permanent dissonance.

Listen to the band The Devil's Interval doing Long Lankin and be very, very scared.

Personally I can't imagine being able to play music without sightreading it first. Even when I can see/hear in my head perfectly well what the line should be, I need to write it down first.

Subject: RE: When did 'sight reading' begin?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 04:35 PM

As commonly used among "professional" musicians, "sight reading" is a contraction of "first-sight reading," and implies the ability to see an unfamiliar piece of music notation and play it at tempo the first time through without stopping to study where the maggots are.

My recollection is that Baillot, in his The Art of the Violin first published in 1837 posited that to deserve a seat in an orchestra a violinist should be able to play "notes at 220 per second" at first sight. It was discussed by university student musicians of my acquaintance as a test commonly used for orchestral "try-outs" for which they were preparing ca 1956 or so. Orchestral maestros have been known to alter "familiar pieces" to change some of the notes as part of the test, since it becomes difficult to find an unfamiliar piece for well trained fiddlers.

Since it may take 1/200 second or more for a notion from the brain to reach the fingers, quite obviously one must read "phrases" to keep the eye and brain sufficiently ahead of the fingers - in my case, lacking lots of "fast twitch" muscles, about 7 or 8 notes ahead.

Reading music from standard notation is a skill that most people interested in music, at amateur or professional levels, should learn; and IMO is something that those not "paper trained" should try to learn; but for most it's unusual to attempt public performance of pieces not practiced in private (or in rehearsals) prior to the performance, so developing fluent sight reading, as the term is most frequently meant, is not often a critically necessary skill.

John

Subject: RE: When did 'sight reading' begin?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 04:41 PM

When I am selling books at festivals and people take a look at the previously cherished items, when my wife is with me she will sing the tunes for people (if they ask!!)

An amazing skill to me - but then I can't sing either whereas she has perfect pitch.

Subject: RE: When did 'sight reading' begin?
From: The Vulgar Boatman
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 05:37 PM

John, are you sure that shouldn't be 220 per minute? Imagine playing 16 notes per second consistently - that's, er, 960 per minute. A fast reel might achieve half that. Blazing fiddles.

Subject: RE: When did 'sight reading' begin?
From: Bernard
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 05:49 PM

I'm sorry, Poppagator, but if you do your research properly you will find Gregorian Chant dates back to the 4th Century - which is 2003 years ago!

Somewhere I still have my thesis on the subject which was part of my finals back in 1970... I do know what I'm talking about.

Subject: RE: When did 'sight reading' begin?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 06:06 PM

Jeez, Bernard, you sound awfully sure of yourself, but for the life of me I can't understand how the fourth century A.D. could possibly be more than about 1700 years ago. One of us is 'way off in his calculations, and I don't think it's me...

Let's try to break it down:

This year is 2007 AD, in the 21st century ~ this is not a year in the 24th century (i.e., not 300-399 plus 2000)!

The year FOUR, not the year 400, was 2003 years ago.

Of course, we know that "Year One" does not correspond exactly to the birth (or the death) of the Historical Jesus. But the margin of error is said to be just a couple of years, no more than a half dozen ~ not centuries.

I'l grant you this: you're able to date the origins of Gregorian Chant to a particular century, the fourth (which I assume is correct); I was not able to pinpoint it off the top of my head; I just found it logically impossible to be prior to the Christian era.

Subject: RE: When did 'sight reading' begin?
From: Bernard
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 06:24 PM

See what you mean... I've had kids smashing windows and am waiting for the police to arrive... yes, 4th Century, not the year 4...! Sorry, mind's elsewhere.

Subject: RE: When did 'sight reading' begin?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 06:49 PM

I am endlessly surprised that so much is done with nine numbers and only 8 are needed for a scale or is that 12 with bits missing

Subject: RE: When did 'sight reading' begin?
From: Bernard
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 06:53 PM

Definitely bits missing, Les...!

Good luck with the Oxjam event on Saturday, BTW!

Subject: RE: When did 'sight reading' begin?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 10:17 PM

This thread title sounds like a trick question to me!

"When did 'sight reading' begin?"

It began the moment you sat down at the piano, when you hadn't practiced all week, and you have to sound like you know the music you're supposed to have practiced!

;-D

SRS

Subject: RE: When did 'sight reading' begin?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 01:22 AM

It's tempting to explain my typo above as

"I was talking about a BLUEGRASS orchestra,"

but VG was correct.

I meant to type "notes at 220 per minute."

I really should have checked the book to get the exact quote; but it's a really big book and is "somewhere in our reference dungeon."

John

Subject: RE: When did 'sight reading' begin?
From: stormalong
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 02:40 AM

I spent years trying to sight-read in conjunction with playing various instruments, including even keyboards, but never cracked it until fairly recently when I bought a Crane Duet concertina which has a very logical button layout. So never give up, even after 40 years!

I still find timing very difficult, so I assist the sight-reading by listening to recordings or putting the piece into a notation software program (Noteworthy Composer). I can't sight-read vocally, but I can get more of a feel about a song than I used to.

Richard

Subject: RE: When did 'sight reading' begin?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 04:09 AM

"It began the moment you sat down at the piano, when you hadn't practiced all week, and you have to sound like you know the music you're supposed to have practiced!"

Well said SRS!

Those of us who Music Prac Exams had to pass it!

There is a very good recent BBC TV series "Big Bangs in Music", the full reference details of which I can't recall immediately, by Howard Goodall - this goes well into the history of Music Notation.

Subject: RE: When did 'sight reading' begin?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 04:27 AM

Thanks for fascinating responses and some have responded to this:

Did people in Greece, China Egypt or Central America leave us any dots?

But anyone else?

Subject: RE: When did 'sight reading' begin?
From: Bernard
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 06:41 AM

There's the legendary story of Paganini, who played a Rolla violin concerto note-perfect at sight when still very young (8 years old, it's said)...

Apparently Rolla was ill in bed and didn't want to be disturbed, but young Paganini started to play a manuscript which was lying on the table... as a result of which Rolla agreed to tutor him. One wonders why he needed tutoring if he was already that good!!

Subject: RE: When did 'sight reading' begin?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 07:24 AM

A lot of really terrific musicians don't read fluently - Django, Hendrix, Bix Beiderbeck.

of course its necessary for some kinds of ensemble music.

I suspect its all about what you want to achieve.

Subject: RE: When did 'sight reading' begin?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 07:44 AM

I learned to sight read at school when I was 11, and by age 12 I could sing most things put in front of me in dots. I am nowhere near as good now due to lack of practice, but the basic skill is still there.

And I can play on the guitar most things, once I hear them, on the basis of "if I can sing, it, I can play it". BUT...

I never managed to put the two skills together, so I cannot sight-read and play the guitar. I always have to hum the tune to myself first...

But what REALLY impresses me is the reverse: People who can hear a tune once and then can write it in dots. Seeing Anahata, Jonny Dyer, Miranda Sykes and others scribble furiously down even as I hum something to them, and getting it all down pat, is close to magic as far as I am concerned... Respeck!

Subject: RE: When did 'sight reading' begin?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 09:45 PM

I have a poem tucked into my collection of songs. It is from a book called 'Medieval English Verse' and it tells of the woes of Water (Walter), a monk who cannot master sight-reading.

Uncomley in cloistre I cowre full of care.
I look as a lurdein [dolt] and - listne til my lare -
The song of the ce-sol-fa does me siken sare
And sitte stotiand [stuttering] on a song
a moneth and mare.

I goule on my grayel [wail over my gradual] and rore as a rooke;
Litil wiste I thereof when I thereto took!
[I had no idea what I was getting into!]

Some notes are short and some a long nooke [angle]
Some crooken away-ward as a flesh-hooke...

When ilke note til other lepes and makes hem asaut
[when each note leaps at the other and assaults it]

That we calles a moison in ge-sol-re-uts-haut.
[That we call a melody in high G.]

Il hail were thou born if thou make defaut;
[Ill was your birth if you make a mistake]

Then says oure maister'que vos ren ne vaut.'
[our master says 'You're no good.']

It is obvious that the hassle of sight-reading was well known by the Middle English era.

Subject: RE: When did 'sight reading' begin?
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 10:26 AM

Haven't seen the Howard Goodall Big Bangs series, but have the book, which is a thoroughly good read.

more about it < a href="http://www.howardgoodall.co.uk/presenting/bigtext.htm>here