Folk in Pubs after the Ban

Subject: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 08:32 AM

I could be wrong but I have the general feeling that pubs are more willing to host our kind of music since the smoking ban.

Is this true?

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 09:06 AM

I play in several pub sessions, they are all without doubt busier since the ban.

eric

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 09:09 AM

I tend to go into the sort of pubs that didn't have a lot of smokers anyway - but anecdotally I would say business is booming in the ones I do go in.

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 09:15 AM

Some landlords and ladies seem keen to do anything to get people in. Perhaps it will level off and we will be no more welcome than we were before. But some were definetly worried about the loss of punters, at least when the Ban started

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Sugwash
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 09:42 AM

It seems to have increased the size of the crowd watching Morris outside pubs, seven men and a dog in one case.

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 10:46 AM

Observations:

In one session I go to, most non playing customers used the other bar. I don't know what that bars is doing now but the ban does not seem to have affected one or two drifting in to the music room.

In terms of non-playing customers, the other has been quieter on the weeks I've been there. As long as the pub feels it is getting enough custom (and I think it is), I view this as a good thing as noise levels were high in there.

In terms of players at these sessions, there have been no changes. Noone has either stopped playing or started coming as a result of the ban. Except...

I've stopped going to the local folk club as a result of the ban (in terms of stress I feel vs what I get out of it, it was tight before but this tipped the balance and I no longer consider it worth my while) and have swapped it for an extra session. As far as I know, that has been the only change there in terms of regular singers/players. I'm not aware of (and I do go there at least one a week for the last 1/2 hr and a game of pool and have chatted about the club) of changes in other customer levels on the folk night.

Re the opening question. I've heard nothing along these lines but it wouldn't surprise me that some pubs are more interested in putting on music (and probably open to consider anything) as a result of the ban.

Whether such efforts would keep a pub viable long term might be another question but I certainly can not see a group of folkies perhaps only once a week and (I know there are exceptions but...) generally not drinking a lot achieving much. I think, in many cases before the ban, we have needed the rest of the week customers to keep the pub open for our folk nights.

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: henryclem
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 12:42 PM

One aspect of the ban is potentially very damaging to folk clubs - especially when the weather is warmer. Club rooms, nicely secluded "round the back" may well experience a lot more noise from the garden, courtyard etc. Windows and doors closed instead of open could make life pretty uncomfortable.

There was an assumption that once the ban was introduced, smokers would go outside for a ciggy much as they probably have been doing at work and then come back inside again for the general social interaction. However this is not what is happening. Smokers and non-smokers were not necessarily segregated before, so the mixed groups (friends, families etc)who continue to enjoy each other's company now do so outside for prolonged periods (or even all night, if there are heaters and reasonable shelter). I know some bars which are completely empty for large parts of the evening because literally everyone, smoker or not, is staying outside. Curiously, in view of the supposed purpose of the ban, this exposes people to much greater
risk from passive smoking because they remain longer in a more confined space with a lot more smokers - and without the benefit of air exchange systems ...

And they can make a lot of din. As I see it the ban was largely based on some pretty dodgy research which implied that if pubs, clubs etc were non-smoking vast numbers, previously excluded, would flock to them. That simply ain't happening - non-smokers who went to pubs before now find them more pleasant, naturally; smokers don't, so the big indoor occasions are less popular than before.

Our social club has a big telly, cheap beer, etc, and our bar takings are seriously down. The smaller pubs in our locality are also struggling because the smoking ban has affected their established community. Some of them have spent lavishly on outdoor facilities.
They won't have money to spend inside when it's needed. And how green is heating the outdoors ?

Sorry - went on a bit! I just feel that some friendly pubs are becoming less so (smokers exiled to the garden getting louder and more aggressive as the winter sets in) and the advantage of secluded rooms upstairs, at the back, may increasingly be lost to the change in habits of the general pub clientele.

Henry

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: GUEST,Wayne
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 12:54 PM

The two sessions I'm involved with have kept going without losing performers but every fifth song or so half of the room disappears for a smoke, leaving the next couple of performers playing to a significantly quieter room. Also, the result of 10 or 12 smokers returning together means that the singing space can seem smoky anyway!

Also, the casual listeners we used to get seem to have stopped coming which is a shame, because in the past many have got hooked and even started singing themselves.

It'll be interesting, as winter progresses to see whether people will still turn up if they have to risk frostbite every half an hour.

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Whistlepenny
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 02:54 PM

Don't forget that the primary purpose of the ban was to remove the likelihood of employees suing their employers for damages if they contracted health problems due to passive smoking in the workplace.

I have observed bars nearly empty while everyone's puffing away outside under a parasol. This can be good for a quiet session (particularly for some singers) but it's disruptive when musicians keep nipping out for a quick drag.

I guess it will all sort itself out in the end. I just wish they'd ban crisps in folk clubs.

Claire

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 03:41 PM

"Our social club has a big telly, cheap beer, etc, and our bar takings are seriously down. The smaller pubs in our locality are also struggling because the smoking ban has affected their established community."

But in this context are some pubs encouraging folk clubs because they bring in people who drink beer?

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: vectis
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 06:04 PM

When we returned to our pub after the summer break we were greeted with open arms and hugs.
The place had been dead all summer due to a combination of the ban and a lousy summer (beachfront bar).

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Leadfingers
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 08:10 PM

The established clubs ( I go to Maidenhead) dont seem to have been affected - Be interesting to see if any NEW clubs or sesions get started now !

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 03:44 AM

In Ireland, were we have had the ban for several years, it's worked like a charm, especially in the music pubs.
Musicians have welcomed it, particularly the flute and whistle players, who now can get get decent lungs-full of air without inhaling the fouled-up atmosphere; non-smokers are delighted not to end up with sore eyes and throats and not smelling like old ashtrays from somebody else's dirty habits; and by and large, the smokers have accepted it (grudgingly at first), but now seem to regard it as a done deal.
Just after it was introduced a crowd of locals took a trip to Lewes for a long week-end to play music at a pub there. One of them was found standing outside having a smoke. On being told it was o.k. to smoke inside he replied "It doesn't seem right any more".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Canberra Chris
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 08:24 PM

In Australia we struggle to remember the bad old days when people smoked indoors anywhere. Even smokers in their own homes will usually go outside if they have guests. I think I saw someone smoking in a car sometime last week.

There have been amusing repercussions to smoking bans. A Chinese trade delegation in Canberra commented on the prevalence of prostitutes hanging around the entrances to office buildings!

There was one hiccup (or cough) at the National Folk Festival in Canberra in the first year of the ban, when the session bar was closed because some people were refusing to comply with the then new law. But I think you would struggle to find anyone wanting to turn the clock back. "Blind Freddy' as we say over here, could see that it is a vast general improvement, like ceasing to spit in the street.

There are no boarded up pubs I have seen, and it is a great boon for singers, as well as for all the rest of us who breathe regularly.

Chris

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 08:32 PM

God (if she exists) save us from this intolerance.

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Scorpio
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 09:07 PM

God, Richard, is male. The proof? Childbirth and gravity.

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 04:38 AM

God is alive and well and working on a far less ambitious project.

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: GUEST,bobcat
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 08:26 AM

Folk clubs have been smoke free for years in Yorkshire...but sessions not. Great to be in a smoke free atmosphere BUT where I go since the ban we have found we are the only customers in the pub and on one occasion the only ones ALL day...and there are five pubs in this particular village all finding they are empty all week....
Sainsburys advertisers buy your beer with us and enjoy the footie at home with mates..Is this the way it is going? I fear some pubs may go under and where then are folk musicians and singers going to meet up? Can't see it will be much fun to smoke outside in the winter???? I hear from next year smokers shelters will have to be 25yards away from the pub buildings..not possible for some pubs. What with the cost of music licenses I fear we shall be struggling to find places to gather.

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 08:30 AM

Isn't it sad that folk music is being held to ransom by a bunch of addicts?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Ernest
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 11:10 AM

If the smokers can`t stop smoking can they please stop whining about the ban at least?

Ernest

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 11:58 AM

I'm not a smoker. I didn't go to non-smoking pubs before the ban, because I didn't like the holier than thou attitude. I don't like the ban now, but it does sometimes makeit easier not to kill your throat before the end of the night. There again, a night howling in the cold open air stuffs my throat too.

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 02:06 PM

No one is holding folk to ransom. It's not on the minds of most who might affect it one way or other in pubs.

Of course, if you feel inclined to blame the smokers who are no longer finding the pubs they used pleasant places to be in, you should also be blaming the masses of non-smokers who it was suggested would start going to pubs as they would find it more pleasant but (at least as yet) haven't. They have just as much say in the success or otherwise of folk friendly pubs.

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 02:16 PM

"by a bunch of addicts?"

The drinkers? In pubs?

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 03:56 AM

Don't really want to get involved in this - as I say, a done deal - but I am curious.
I am a non-smoker, but grew up with parents where were both heavily addicted (and who both ended up with cancer).
Because I enjoy a pint (that's what pubs are there for folks) I have tolerated others smoking all my drinking life up to three years ago, when (apparently with the support of the vast majority) it became illegal in public places here in Ireland. The pubs are now cleaner, and healthier and I can go for a pint (and listen to some marvelous music) without risking my health and without having my clothes fouled up by the cigarette smoke of others.
My question - putting aside the risk smokers put themselves under, (none of my business; if they wish to top themselves I might even offer to steady the chair while they tie the rope), how do smokers justify making the lives of others unpleasant and putting their lives at risk (children included), or isn't it an issue with them?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 04:12 AM

Jesus, eating garlic will be banned next.

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 04:55 AM

Although a non-smoker myself since Tuesday August 22nd 2000, I nevertheless miss the merry reek of tobacco in English public houses, especially that of Ron Baxters's pipe at The Steamer in Fleetwood of a Thursday night which was such an essential part of the overall atmosphere - true aromatherapy!

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 04:58 AM

And not quite as healthy has homeopathy?

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 08:05 AM

Homeopathy? Give me Ron's pipe-smoke any day.

If the eyes are the windows of the soul, what does that make the nose? The backdoor maybe, with all the wonders of dark autumn nights - like the braw reek o' neep (turnip) lanterns in the washhouse at Hallowe'en, which the modern peference for colonial pumpkins just don't offer...

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 08:26 AM

Did you hear of the man who forgot to take his homeopathic medicine?

























































Died of am overdose!

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 01:11 PM

'Jesus, eating garlic will be banned next.'
Does garlic turn your lungs into lace curtains?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Effsee
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 01:37 PM

"Does garlic turn your lungs into lace curtains?
Jim Carroll"....no Jim, but the smell of it makes me vomit!

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 01:52 PM

Filling pubs with customers has nothing to do with smoke and everything to do with running a business professionally. It's not rocket science. For the winning formula, check out the Kelham Island pub in Sheffield. As they say in Field of Dreams - build it and they will come............

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Black Diamond
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 04:13 PM

I am a non smoker. There are other things than cancer. When I lived in Tividale in the Black Country my neigbour lost the use of his legs because his arteries blocked due to smoking. Now I live "up North", my neighbour has just had his leg amputated because his arteries blocked due to smoking, causing a severe leg ulcer and poisoning his body so much his leg practically dropped off of its own accord, but first there was this huge amount of pain , every day, for weeks, months, years before he had the operation. Both smokers began the habit before the risks were known. Now we know the risks, and also that non smokers can get severe illness through passive smoking. Perhaps those who start smoking these days could sign a declaration that when, not if but when, they need treatment, they wont ask my hard earned taxes to pay for their operation on the NHS and for the care they will need when they are legless.
What i dont understand is why are businesses allowed to manufacture such things, including the drugs, and the guns and the knives .....   
oh dear I think I had better get my spaceship and blast off the planet, I must be totally non PC, going against all those human rights
Lin
lin

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 05:09 PM

Lowden Jameswright has it nailed down! The ban is a convenient excuse for some poor business people to engage in the national pastime of blaming someone else when things go wrong. The good pubs round our way are still good pubs and are going strong. The good clubs and sessions still attract a good audience.

People come for the beer and the spark. (and clothing that doesn't smell of smoke!)

Five pubs in a village? How big is this village?

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: bubblyrat
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 06:41 PM

Of course, the down side now is that outside every pub,shop,restaurant and office in anytown,anywhere, are great piles and swathes of cigarette butts lying on the ground-----at least BEFORE the ban, most people used to put them out in ashtrays !! But then ,that AWFUL STINK that smokers just don"t notice,has all but vanished from pubs & bars,and, to be honest, I haven"t noticed much decline in numbers attending clubs and sessions, at least not in this area ( Oxon /Berks/ Bucks )."Anniecat " suffers from acute Bronchiectasis anyway, so she for one is mightily relieved by the ban , and I gave it up 7 years ago after many years of breathlessness, terrible nerves, bad headaches, and paroxysmal tachycardia ( All gone now !!).

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 06:55 PM

And your point is now that you are so superior to those others without your force of personalty and good sense, so you may now sit in judgement of them? Damned unenglish of you.

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 07:37 PM

Damned unenglish of you.

What?

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 07:37 PM

Richard - I don't feel superior, just very relieved that English pubs aren't full of smoke any more. The fug really was unpleasant, especially as it transferred itself to clothing, hair and skin. For some of us it's very liberating not to have to put up with that any more, but you don't seem to consider our feelings at all. Or that this was intended to protect the health of the people who work in pubs. This is a rebalancing of the interests of different pub patrons which was long overdue.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 09:16 PM

'I just wish they'd ban crisps in folk clubs.

Claire'

=============

Thank you, Claire, for my first good chuckle of the day.

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: GUEST,Smoker and door blocker.
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 10:29 PM

The biggest problem that has come out of the Smoking in pubs (etc) ban is what to do with me empty sauce sachet when I have me pub chips - no ash tray to dump it in!

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 04:01 AM

"Does garlic turn your lungs into lace curtains? Jim Carroll"....no Jim, but the smell of it makes me vomit!"
I can move to the other side of the room from garlic, farts, b.o. whatever; I take the effects smoke away with me, inside and out.
Favourite quote, "a smoke-free area in an enclosed building is like a pee-free area in a swimming pool".
I didn't receive (nor did I expect) a reply to my query about smokers sharing the lethal consequences of their habit with others, so perhaps I don't feel so bad about depriving them of the pleasure of their mutual suicide decision.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: GUEST,RickS
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 04:59 AM

Friend of mine had a heart attack earlier this year - lifelong non-smoker, healthy active lifestyle, but informed by the medical staff that 40 years of busy gigging in smoky pubs ( usually 4/5 nights per week) had given him the symptoms of a moderately heavy smoker; I know from my own experience that I can now get thru a gig without coughing my lungs up - I would contend that the right not to have one's health so (possibly terminally) afflicted outweighs the right to light up? Sort of like the right not to be killed by a drunk-driver ( I'm old enough to recall the indignity drinkers felt over that issue, at first)? The passive-smoking issue is a real concern, IMO..

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: synbyn
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 05:16 AM

but what'll happen to all the squeezeboxes? it was only the tar holding them together.....

nice to be able to see the performers across the room.. as decreasing numbers of folk attenders seemed to be smokers, no great impact.. and blues singers now uttering in RP...

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Banjiman
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 05:28 AM

Listen guys,

I'm a smoker, happy with the ban on smoking inside pubs/ clubs for a number of reasons:

1/ Even MY clothes smell less
2/ It helps me cut down
3/ The atmosphere in pubs and clubs is much better/ cleaner and better for singing
4/ It stops non-smokers moaning (except on threads like this)
5/ It gives me an excuse to get away when "that singer" (you all know one) comes on.
6/ Anecdotally, I have seen more people at singaround/ club nights than before the ban

I don't smoke in my own house, why should I expect to smoke in enclosed public places?

Just please let me have a quiet corner outside, with an ashtray so I don't have to litter....I really don't need reminding of the health implications (you would have to be blind, deaf & even dafter than me not to be aware of them).

This thread started out as interesting read but as usual has ended up as a slanging match and point scoring exercise between the antis & pros.

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 06:18 AM

True enough Banjiman! Maybe it's the age of us?

I still have a simple minded view that some pubs are trying harder than they did to pull people in and in that climate live music is a strong feature

cheers

Les

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: melodeonboy
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 01:48 PM

Bob, am I right in assuming that RP refers to "received pronunciation"?

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Banjiman
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 01:56 PM

Les in Chorltonn,

I agree, I think pubs/ venues are trying harder and realise that live music (even folk!) will bring in more punters. I am starting a folk club in my local on the back of this, let's hope it brings in some punters!

This far outweighs any mild discomfort at having to smoke outside (which we are all well used to anyway).

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 02:06 PM

Where are you and your club Paul

Les

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Banjiman
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 02:35 PM

Les,

Kirkby Fleetham Folk Club in North Yorks, you can find info & tracks from opening night guests here KKFC MySpace and info here KFFC Website

Opening night is Saturday 24th November with Wendy Arrowsmith (yes related!) and we have a full weekend planned in February with Jez Lowe and Duncan McFarlane amongst many others. I think you like Duncan a bit don't you?

oh and you can smoke comfortably outside!

Cheers

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 02:46 PM

Sounds good Paul, Duncan and Band are excellent and that Jez is not bad!

Bit of a trek from Manchester but best of luck!

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 02:47 PM

In our little (about a dozen people) Friday night song circle, three of us are smokers. They go outdoors regularly but they hurry back- I think it's because they don't want to miss the music that is going on indoors.

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: RTim
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 03:21 PM

Last year I did a gig at a local "Coffee" house (in a Church Room) - that was No Smoking or Drinking, etc.. At the beginning someone thought it a great idea to light the Wood fire and have a jolly sing around the fire - Well it smoked SOOOOO much, I smelt of woodsmoke for weeks!!!
Much worse than any pub I have ever been in in the UK, etc..
Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 03:40 PM

Good grief- did anyone think of opening the draft?

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 03:42 AM

Just after the ban was implemented here a pub in Galway (Fibber McGhee's), found it was having problems with falling custom. This was nothing to do with not being able to smoke, but the council had embarked on major road works outside (in Eyre Square) and it was impossible to approach the pub without having to use a long length of unpaved footpath.
The governor decided to defy the ban on the grounds that it was unconstitutional - the result - still nobody came.
It is still possible to drive though towns here after closing time and see illegal drinkers huddled outside pubs having a legal smoke.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Rog Peek
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 01:23 PM

For people who are going to be breathing over others when indulging in such pursuits as dancing, should be banned from eating garlic. I find dancing with someone who has been eating garlic is even more unpleasant than if they have been smoking. Before you suggest I should choose my dancing partners more carefully should bear in mind that during figures in set dancing where the ladies will be required to change partners, you have no choice.

Rog

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: GUEST,Flatpick
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 01:27 PM

Haven't noticed an ounce of difference at my local. The smokers all sit outside, the music was in a no-smoking room anyway.

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 06:32 PM

Melodeonboy. Yes.

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: synbyn
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 03:33 PM

Melodeonboy- RP = Residual Phlegm...?

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 05:24 AM

Melodeonboy- RP = Residual Phlegm...?

Is this an increasingly popular tattoo?

Subject: RE: Folk in Pubs after the Ban
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 07:38 PM

Nah, his drumming is shit.