Anyone watching My Son Jack?

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 12:48 PM

Will you accept
"Sinn Fein failed utterly to gain any democratic support for home rule, from 1905 until after the Easter rising" ?

Will you also accept that there was no popular support for that rising at the time, while hundreds of thousands of young Irish men had volunteered to fight for Britain?

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 01:44 PM

I don't think this is the thread for getting into that Keith. But "home rule for Ireland failed utterly to get any democratic support" was not correct. In most parts of Ireland opponents of home rule had long given up even standing for election, because they had about as much chance of getting returned as the Monster Raving Loony Party.

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 02:58 PM

Keith,
I believe there are just causes - I am not sure about just wars.
Any civilised society holds human life to be important enough to make the unlawful taking of it the most serious crime on its legal statutes.
Therefore it is logical to assume that to take another person's life or to sacrifice ones own should be entirely the decision of each individual, and not left to politicians, unelected hierarchies, religious sects or interested group standing to profit from military conquests (or defeats - such is the cynical nature of the society we live in).
I am not a pacifist; I believe there are causes worth fighting and dying for, but I would not wish to impose my beliefs on any other individual. Nor would I wish to encourage them by anything other than open discussion, to take up arms in support of anything I believe.
My father fought in Spain in 1936 (against Franco), was seriously wounded and spent time in a Fascist prison. It was his decision to fight and he didn't volunteer because he was afraid of somebody handing him a white feather, or because he would be imprisoned, or even executed as a traitor if he refused.
If there is anybody out there who would like to put forward a moral justification for World War One, I would be fascinated to hear it.
So endeth today's rant.
....except to point out that it was the institutionalised brutality of the British that lost Ireland to the Empire - in case anybody hadn't noticed.
When the Easter Week Rebellion ended with the defeat of the rebels, as they left the GPO, had to be given military protection from the Dublin mob (mainly women), who demanded to know why they weren't 'supporting our lads in the trenches'.
Within months the situation had been completely reversed by the decision of the British Government to execute the leaders. One of the most potent and lasting images of the event is that of James Connolly, who was so badly wounded that he had to be strapped into a chair in order to be shot by the firing squad.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Mysha
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 04:02 PM

Hi,

Above, I mentioned (more or less):
"I must say that the search of the Kiplings for their son, followed by that final report, has the making of a folk song itself."

So I now created this thread for such a song I wrote. (I hope this is the correct way to connect threads, rather than being considered cross-posting.)
                                                                   Mysha

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Rasener
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 06:40 AM

Somme 1

Somme 2

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 03:44 PM

Jim,
Your father was lucky to make it back.
My father's brother planned to go but was prevented by family pressure.
(and I too believe in learning songs before performing them)
You are right of course, that the harsh capital punishment meted out to the Easter rebels finally brought popular support for their cause.

I do believe that there was a moral justification for Britain and France to defend themselves from The Kaiser's armies, as did those who volunteered to fight.
Conscription did not come into force until 1916, and was never used in Ireland. The white feather campaign was not state instigated.
My grandfather was given one on his wedding day, 2nd June 1916 although he must have been in his naval uniform. It may have been the popular impression that the Navy had failed the nation at Jutland.
Keith.

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 04:38 PM

If it was the "institutionalised brutality" of the British that led to them executing the rebel leaders, what was it that led to the execution of prisoners by both sides in the Irish civil war?

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 04:42 PM

Leave it, Keith. Just accept that the Irish never did anything wrong and all the worlds' ills are the fault of the 'Bastard Brits' and you won't go far wrong on mudcat.

D.

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 05:54 PM

Stir, stir, stir...

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 03:29 AM

Keith,
I didn't believe we were too far apart in our opinions.
The brutality of The Irish (or all) civil wars was no different to that in WWI - the establishment exercising its authority and confirming its position.
In the end, all conflicts boil down to their objectives, and I have always believed that WWI was about markets and world supremacy, and like all such conflicts, those who made the supreme sacrifice were the ones who stood to gain least.
The execution of prisoners appears to be what happens in war - wasn't the glorious victory at Agincourt topped of by the massacre of 160 French prisoners at the command of Henry V. It happened in Spain too.
Dave; the Irish War of Independence was not about Bastard Brits and heroic Paddies, but of the right of the Irish to govern themselves. While this isn't an issue that keeps me awake at night, it remains the case and unless the situation of the North-Eastern counties is finally resolved, people will be dying over it long after we've shuffled off......
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: keberoxu
Date: 20 Feb 16 - 02:53 PM

When they were broadcast on US television, I viewed both The Lost Prince and My Son Jack, years ago.
The embarrassing thing is that it was only just now, reading this thread, that I saw the connection. One of the messages on this thread was kind enough to spell out that the King, talking about coming upon the body of his son at the end of My Son Jack, was speaking of The Lost Prince himself. So ignorant am I of English history that this had to be spelled out for me; when watching the actual programs, this went straight in one ear and out the other.   

Both programs were admirable and I recall both of them with gratitude.