Stealing gigs from the pro's

Subject: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Hamish
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 09:45 AM

In the thread "folksingers who quit,and why?", GUEST,Anon for professional reasons (sorry)! said:

5) Not being able to fill your diary because there are simply not enough club gigs out there any more, and also way too many people wanting to play them (often for peanuts because they don't need the money).

This worries me. Because, Gafpr(s), you mean me and those like me. I have recently accepted a gig at an established club for the evening's door money - no guarantee. It's a reasonably local club, so I'll probably cover my petrol money. And it's no big deal to me if I don't - because, as you say, I don't need the money. And I can sell a few promo CDs and make money for the local hospice. And the club will get a good night's entertainment with no financial risk. And they'll keep the raffle profits :-)

But I can't help feeling a bit guilty because I'm taking a potential gig from Gafpr(s) and those like him/her, who are trying to pay the rent and feed the kids on gigs and CD sales. And I'd assume the club would get more people through the door, too.

On the other hand, how do people get to be pro's when they haven't yet got a big following if they don't get out there and play?

I don't know. Should I feel guilty? Would it be better if I turned down the peanuts and held out for a realistic "pro" fee?

--
Hamish

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 09:47 AM

What the feck is Gafpr[s]

eric

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Hamish
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 09:49 AM

Gafpr(s) = GUEST,Anon for professional reasons (sorry)

--
Hamish

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: alanabit
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 09:55 AM

I don't think you are "stealing work" from anyone. Live entertainment is a buyer's market, and the going rate is whatever the buyer is prepared to pay. When I was doing it full time, I often worked for less than the semi pros. That was because they could afford to turn down gigs, which I had to take. Now that I earn money from other sources, I have a choice. I can take gigs, which I don't care so much about - as long as the money is right. Or I can do gigs, which I love, which pay peanuts. What I never have to do is to take work because I desperately need it at any price. It's up to the pros to make a living - not to others to make it easy for them.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 10:00 AM

Hamish....duly noted that you don't need the money:-)!!!

Seriously:

Surely this is a simple supply and demand question...if the product is good enough (and "sold" properly) people will come out and see it.....the pros should be that much better than the semi's as they have more time to practice and/ or more talent......they should be able to get more people through the door.

If not...should they expect to be full time pros?

There are lots of very good semi-pros around who earn reasonable but not excessive fees in the folk clubs.....surely this should drive true excellence from the pros if they are to differentiate themselves?

Hamish...why should you feel guilty? If you provide an entertaining evening and some people are prepared to pay to see you that's great.....no one is owed a living!

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 10:03 AM

I think, from the venue's point of view, it has more got to do with the maxim of getting something as cheap as possible.

Agents and venue owners can spot the over-compromising artist, and some are ruthless enough to take advantage.
I wouldn't call it 'stealing gigs', though.

One should have confidence enough in one's own capabilities before one steps on to a stage. Musicians are not born publicists, but ultimately it is down to the individual's engagement in what they do, to further themselves.

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Marje
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 10:15 AM

I don't see that you need feel guilty, Hamish.

Similar situations arise in other branches of the arts: there's amateur theatre, where people perform just for the love and the fun of it; amateur artists who sell their paintings at a rate that wouldn't equate to a decent hourly income; in classical music, the choirs are almost all unpaid while the orchestras do get paid for what is probably a lot fewer hours of rehearsal - it's simply a reflection of the supply-and-demand situation, and the level and scarcity of the skills they offer.

There are also other areas of employment where voluntary workers support (or undermine, depending on your point of view) the paid workers - conservation, CAB work, youth work, etc.

When someone chooses to try to make a living out of something they really enjoy doing, they have to accept that there will be others who want to do the same thing and don't mind doing it for little or no financial reward. If you're out to be a professional, you'll have to have something extra to offer. Many or most of the pros in the sorts of jobs I've mentioned - including the folk world - started out as amateurs doing it for free in order to get established and known, so I don't see how they can object to others trying to do the same, or simply enjoying themselves entertaining others.

I mean, what other options are there? Everyone insisting on MU rates before they'd do a floor spot? I can't think of a feasible alternative to the present system.

Marje

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Dan Keding
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 10:24 AM

Stealing gigs is a delicate subject. I've been a full time performer (storyteller/folksinger) for over thirty years and I can only think of a handful of times I thought a gig was stolen from me. Everyone needs to learn their trade and learning the trade of being a performer means you have to perform and during that time you will most likely have another gig on the side. Also, many folks like to work where and when they want to, no argument there, so they also have a profession besides performing. The cream will rise to the top be it a full time performer or a part timer. There is work out there, during these more challenging financial times I'll admit there is less than normal, but you can also create work for yourself. We should be more supportive of each other and not relegate the arts as a competitive sport.

take care,

Dan

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 10:45 AM

Quote from Dan Keding: "We should be more supportive of each other and not relegate the arts as a competitive sport."

Dan, I don't argue at all with the sentiment of this..... ....but what does it mean in financial terms? When there is a small pot to pay people how should this be shared out?

I don't think folk music is at all competitive at the amateur level (quite rightly), but if you are asking people to part with money you have to entertain....and it is your job as the artiste to persuade promoters & club organisers that you can do just that....and then the market dictates that you have to be able to do it better than others if you want to make more money than they do, i.e. a living (professionals)rather than beer money (semi-pros)....

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 10:56 AM

You're giving good entertainment value for money. You're helping support a local club (an endangered species) by ensuring they can stay in profit on your night, or at least not lose out - which then means they can perhaps afford to book a professional sooner than they otherwise would. Folded clubs (for lack of funds) are no good to ANYone, least of all the professionals.

This nourishes the whole scene. What's to feel guilty about?

Anyway, I think the two categories are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Sometimes people (or some people) just want to go for a fun night out, and will enjoy whatever's on the menu. But those who particularly want to see So And So The Star are going to turn up for that particular gig. It can be argued that you're helping to fuel the engine they run on.

Anyway, don't stop.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 11:16 AM

Do what you want, Hamish. I'm on Vancouver Island these days, where you'll find on any given night, some of the finest musicians playing for door money and tip jars. I can go into the same establishment or two doors down and get $200 for an evening's work.
I get upset at the businesses who take advantage of these folk but not the entertainers.
As for working for the "Door". I'm slowly accepting this as the being the way it's done and have found that it can be just as lucrative or better than a nominal fee.
Nobody is going hungry because of you and you are just as much a professional as anyone else.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: treewind
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 11:22 AM

Hamish: don't worry.
For one thing, some clubs operate on a door money policy anyway (Matt Armour's Song Loft in Stony Stratford for example) So do some very reputable performers.

For another: yes, there is a shortage of gigs and too many performers, but that's not your fault and you shouldn't feel guilty about it!

But having said that, don't undervalue yourself. A few years ago we got a lecture from Pete Coe about that - asking for low rates just to get the gig is devaluing the market for full time professional singers. You should charge the going rate for what you do. If a club wants to book you, hopefully they do so because they'd like to hear your songs, not because you're cheap. In fact clubs that work on the latter principle don't tend to last long...

Anahata

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 11:24 AM

Marje's theatre discussion doesn't really apply. Theatre pros don't compete with amateurs, it is a separate world, If you are working in the professional theatre, generally speaking people are paid Equity rates or better, and you are not working next to someone who likes doing it for the kudos alone. Those people go to the amateur company and act there. But in music, the two do perform on the same stage at the same events. Music is also radically different from most other professions precisely because of this odd fact about pros and amateurs competing. This does not apply in call centres or refuse collection, for example, because nobody is that keen to do these jobs for nothing.
    Personally, I am a professional muscian and have been for many years. Yes, it can be irritating when you hear that someone with a handsome day job salary has offered their services to a festival for nowt, but there you go. These things happen. The main point I would like to make in relation to Hamish's original post, where he contrasts his willingness to take the door money as opposed to a professional's fee. In most well run venues, the door money would be a perfect fee for a professional. I would always be happy to work a folk club for the door money(preferably with a guarantee, to keep the organisers on their toes). If you are profesasional, I should have thought the money people are willing to pay to see you ought to be enough for you!
    I think it is fair that people should be asked to think about these things. If you are good enough to hold the stage at a folk festival and entertain people, then I think you should charge a proper rate for it. Otherwise the scene cwould eventually become distorted, as it is only human nature for certain event organisers to cut financial corners and go for the cheapo acts, rather than the acts they feel would enhance the festival(or club). Too many of those acts, and the audiences will start to vote with their feet.
   Another thought: should amateur folksingers perform the "Blackleg Miner" at venues where professionals perform? Discuss.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 11:42 AM

"Another thought: should amateur folksingers perform the "Blackleg Miner" at venues where professionals perform? Discuss."

Greg...excellent question.......of course they should, if not it assumes that someone is getting fat off the earnings of the poor hard working professional folk singers....and who would that be exactly?

Anahata: Surely "the going rate" is something just less than the door money (i.e door money minus costs and promotional budget)? That is what the market in any particular area is telling you it can stand?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST, Anon for professional reasons (sorry)!
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 11:44 AM

Hamish you should indeed not feel guilty for one second - nor should anyone. It's a buyers market, and you get what both parties agree the gig's worth.

There's no law to say there must be so X club gigs at Y price to keep Z number of professionals in business.

And anyway, why should a club risk losing money on an unknown pro, when they can get a great local act that fills the room and costs half as much?

No, mate - you get what you need, or want, and enjoy!

But if you ARE that unknown pro, desperately chasing a dwindling supply of poorly paid gigs, and seeing the price for those gigs getting lower in real terms (while costs rise) because of the ready availibility of so many very good semi-pros - it can be desperately disheartening to hear the words 'oh we only book local acts and sure-fire big names these days'

see?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 11:50 AM

To those interested in making a living at it. If one in ten venues is not turning you down because of money, you're not charging enough.
Just thought I'd throw that in there.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST,perm
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 11:55 AM

JimLad,

How many gigs do you have booked at the moment?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 11:58 AM

Guest, can we please not go there?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST,BobL
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 12:03 PM

Isn't the essence of "folk" music that it's created by ordinary people (as opposed to trained musicians) for their own and each others' enjoyment (as opposed to commercial reasons)? So a "professional folk musician" would be a contradiction in terms.

Just thought I'd throw *that* in there.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 12:25 PM

You seem to equate 'trained', with 'professional'

Not a valid premise.

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: PoppaGator
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 12:42 PM

It's great that so many folks are telling Hamish not to worry or feel guilty ~ and I suppose he really shouldn't. However, I share his feelings, because this problem is especially touchy in my town at this particular time.

Live music has always been a major factor in New Orleans' appeal as a tourist destination, and the tourism industry has been critical to the local economy for years. And, even in good times, musicians have always been underpaid ~ almost as severely underpaid as other workers critical to the tourism biz, like restaurant workers, hotel maids, cabbies, etc. It's historical fact that the tour-and-travel business provides a small number of well-placed individuals and corporations with big money, largely thanks to the efforts of a large number of thoroughly exploited wage-slaves.

Since the 2005 flood, tourism is off ~ even though the economy continues to rebound since being totally shut down immediately after Katrina, we are still hurting. A number of live music venues have not reopened, although there is still probably more live music in New Orleans than in any other US city. Most of the places that are open and offering music have to get by with reduced attendance and therefore smaller revenues. Many musicians who evacuated still cannot return to live in their hometown, especially those who were not homeowners prior to the storm, because rents have gone sky-high due to supply-and-demand.

The upshot is that plenty of opportunites in the local music industry are up for grabs. Many established players, and a few established venues, are now out of the picture. Those musicians who are here and available for gigs include talented and proven veterans who deserve to make a living wage, as well as wannabes of all ages and descriptions willing to take any opportunity for just about any level of compensation.

I think the right thing to do is to accept a gig ONLY if it pays well enough that a player more experienced and established than oneself would at least consider it. In other words, I would feel guilty to be, in effect, a "scab" serving to devalue performance of music and to deny fair payment to professional musicians who can do the job admirably ~ and who might not be particularly qualified to make their livings any other way.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 12:55 PM

GUEST,perm: I'm on a "Lay off" at the moment so I only have a couple lined up. Staying home with my daughter for a few years while Mum works. I took 5 years off for my sons when they were younger.
Until she was born, I played 6 or 7 nights a week for four months of the year and 2 or 3 nights per week for the rest of the year.
Popagator: I share your views but am slowly relenting, I'm afraid.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: JedMarum
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 02:00 PM

Interesting question and discussion. I couldn't agree more strongly with those comments above saying; "Go For It!" and "no worries about stealing gigs."

I know that many of the folks that play the same events and stages that I play have day jobs - and many can afford to work for less then me. But I never see that as competitors "stealing" work from me. If they are playing at that level they typically deserve it because they have some real quality to offer.

I have made a living at music since Jan 2000. I started out at the "part-time pro" level (if I can coin the phrase) and I still play some events at that level. I play at the next levels up too, often with a band ... but even there I come across folks with day-jobs.

Over the long run, every player or band earns his/her keep. If you are pleasing the crowd at a given event and that event is making ends meet, you'll be asked back; you've earned your keep.

I have not played places where the venue takes unfair advantage of the performers. Those places will not last. I know most of the performers making a living in the same venues I work. We talk to each other about venues and our experiences there. A crooked venue owner won't last long.

I take that back - I did play oe venue where I worked for the door and let the owner take tickets. He swore there only 95 - I had counted 140 (full house). I also found him and his staff unusually disinterested in being hospitable toward my band. I had no proof, and could only blame myself for not verifying the house count. SO - I never went back to that venue - and I passed the word on to my music friends.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Hamish
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 02:04 PM

Thanks for all the support on this. Just one concern raised, really, that those like me could be diluting the asking price for those who do need the money. However, having said that, I booked a couple of Nig Name acts when I was booking for the local club and they were happy to play for a percentage - no guarantee - because they knew they'd sell out the 350-seat theatre we were using for the gig. All they asked for was the merchandising, a simple meal, and that we charged a specified amount per ticket.

--
Hamish

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 02:10 PM

The only way one can "steal a gig" is by charging less. That's what unions are for.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 02:15 PM

Unions? In the FOLK-performing world? Not a workable plan.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: JedMarum
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 02:19 PM

I typically get paid either a set fee or the lionshare (80% to 100%) of the door, and the cover charge is set to approximate my rate. I always count on CD sales to "sweeten" the deal - and I sometimes play for CD sales alone, if I can be very sure of a good crowd. Some venues have %of the door deal with a guaranteed minimum. These are good deals to get. The aim is to ensure the performer gets paid and if there is a loss, the venue takes it and a big crowd can mean a big performer pay check.

All of these arrangements can be good deals for both me and the venue. I really and truly want the venue to do well. I want them to be successful, so I can come back someday - and I want them to have fond memories of my gig there!

I don't do opening acts these days, but when I did I often did them for a small set fee ($100 to $150 usually paid from the venue's back account, NOT from the evening's proceeds) OR for free. Again CD sales were typically good.

Pubs typically pay a set fee. Some try to base their rate on band members up to a maximum. I don't buy that "per player" rate since I do the same work a band does, if I am working a Pub. If they don;t budge on that then I don't work the pub. Usually they don't care though.

Making a living at this as I have for a long time, I've seen lots of variety in the way these deals work. I have to say I have been pleasantly surprised at the few problems I've run into. I've had a very few cancellations over the years - and that's surprising in itself due to the number of outdoor events I play. And I can think only two times where I might have been cheated; one I told above, another was a bankrupt festival who gave me a bad check rather then tell they had gone belly up - they did eventually make a satisfactory partial payment, so I can't really count that as being cheated. Even on my few cancellations I've been paid! Maybe I'm just living right - but I really have been lucky.

... knock wood.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: JedMarum
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 02:26 PM

I just reread my comment above ... I don't mean to imply I am above playing an "opening act" - that comment sounded a bit too much. Sorry.

I mean that I simply haven't done any for a while. I certainly would not turn them down. I guess my main thrust in booking these days is finding paying gigs. It's a tough business. If you don't earn you don't last long - and you don;t make the mortgage!

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: redsnapper
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 02:48 PM

You should not feel guilty.

Also... being an "amateur" does not necessarily equate to having any less talent than a professional performer. I tend to agree fully with what Bonnie said.

RS

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Hamish
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 02:58 PM

Ah, now, Jed: pubs. I think I charge the going rate for pub gigs (when I get them!) and that's because I don't like them so much. A bit like Alanabit said "I have a choice. I can take gigs, which I don't care so much about - as long as the money is right. Or I can do gigs, which I love, which pay peanuts."

--
Hamish

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST,Anon again
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 02:58 PM

In the UK is the number of paying gigs has now dropped below a critical level* as more clubs become singers-only or have guests on fewer nights of the year, while the number of people keen to perform at a professional level (in terms of qulity even if not of price) is increasing rapidly.

(*If you assume you can only play a club once every three years, and that only 75% are going to like what you do, you can only get about 100 club gigs a year. At £80-180, given the other costs involved, that's just not sustainable - you have to look elsewhere, and do other things)

If we all demanded MU rates, even fewer clubs would have guests.

Actually I'm not sure that club rates are dramatically affected by semi-pro deals, but festival rates absolutely are. A festival day is long and tough, workshops drain you and main stage gigs are the hardest of all because multiple act concerts carry the highest risk of technical problems and challenges in terms of turning an audience in a limited time slot (against other, very different performers), but also carry the largest bum-count in the folk world. Yet pecause so many see a festival as a holiday with expenses you're sometimes expected to perform for LESS than a club fee. (and I'm usually in the big print at the top, by the way).

BobL has made the comment we usually hear at some point in this debate - forgetting that he probably wouldn't have a single folk song in his head to hum if it wasn't for the pros that have worked hard through the years to find, arrange or write brilliant songs, and then struggled to get them out there, for everyone else to call their own. That's folk, folks.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 03:03 PM

(*If you assume you can only play a club once every three years,)


Make that 18 months. It translate to 2 years because when you get there it was "The year before last" and to any audience that was 2 years ago.
See?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST, Anon
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 03:07 PM

10% book me every year. 20% perhaps every two, for most it's three, and the rest it's four or even longer. I'd average that at three. Are you talking about the UK Jim?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST, Anon
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 03:10 PM

by the way most UK clubs book guests less 12 or fewer times a year. The number who have a paid guest every week is tiny. Every other week is more common, but still a minority.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: JedMarum
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 03:24 PM

... festival and large venue rates are another issue. I have learned that I should never offer low rates to them, hoping to get the gig. It will NOT be worth it. It is probably human nature, but most of the time people will put you at the level you place yourself. A quick story to show you what I mean.

When I first started playing at big festivals as a headliner, one time I made a low offer to a festival that I really wanted to play (because it fit well with a tour I was planning). I made an offer that might be in range of a local band - thinking that a low price might get me the deal. It did - and I wound up playing in corner of the tent behind the lunch tables next to the beer booth, with a loud rock band blasting away 100 yards from me. I would have done better to stand on the corner at the bus station and busk.

I have learned that it is up to me to find out what the rates are for each of the venues I am seeking work from - and for the various levels of artists they are booking. Then I figure out where I want to be rated within that hierarchy and ask for that rate. It prices me out of some events, but that's better then playing a bad gig. It also gives me a good starting point if the venue really wants me and wishes to negoitate.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 03:28 PM

Quote from Pete Seeger, "I'd rather be a professional amateur than an amateur professional."

Frank

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 03:39 PM

I can think of one very well-known artist who had a highly paid day job and was highly paid as a professional musician too - still is!

He didn't do gigs for nothing any more than any other professional artist did.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: JedMarum
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 03:49 PM

... just a bit more into the thread creep, if I may.

In truth, I have nothing against having a day job but it gets in the way of music. I cannot do the music development, the booking and the promo activities if I work a day job - nor can I work all over the country as I need to, if I have a day job.

During these slow months of Dec/Jan I have developed a day job of sorts ... I play local sandwich shops and nursing homes several times a week during the day. I am mostly in-town during those months and these little gigs earn me a bit of money while I bide my time for the festival and concert series to begin. I work pubs at nights. Pubs kinda suck - but they earn and they force me to work on my "entertainer" chops - which I really just don;t have.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: oggie
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 05:05 PM

What Jed is describing so well is the mindset of the "professional" folksinger (also applies in the craft world where I work). You have to earn so much to live, you need so many gigs, you find your own niches as and when. You are in business. No business, no show.

If someone is trying to make their living (UK) just doing clubs and festivals, good luck and I don't envy you. The established (Carthy, Garbutt) crowd pullers can do it but very few others. Look at Pete Coe or Bob Pegg and how they have made their livings over the years. A bit of club work, some festivals, a bursary for this or that etc. That is the reality of being in the folk business.

Is Hamish stealing a gig? Don't think so, if he wasn't there would the club have bookes a pro? Doubt it. So he's helped either himself as a step along the way, or someone else to get a gig by keeping the club going.

All the best

Steve

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST,Ex Club Organiser
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 06:23 PM

In my days running a club we booked as many professionals as we could afford and paid the going rate. They always cost us money.

The good local performers would bring in a crowd and we would always turn a profit on those nights, without them we could never have afforded a single "name".

With good publicity and some careful cash flow forecasting we were able to put on some decent shows which got new people into the scene and gave the regulars a chance to perform to a proper audience rather than just sit in a circle singing to each other.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 07:27 PM

How can you tell? I am a club organiser and I never think to ask an artist if they have a day job-I ask their fee and if we can afford it thats what we pay them. If we can't afford them but really want them we rely on our savings if we think we should have them anyway. We sometimes struggle to get regular singers night people to guest nights so we need to attract an audience outside the club to support the guest which is time consuming and difficult to predict unless they are well known despite extensive marleting which we always do. Frankly it is a nightmare so when we say we won't book an act because we havent heard them then the reasons are pretty clear-financial. There aren't many acts who will turn up and if there is no audience will forgo the fee and the money has to come from somewhere.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 07:36 PM

Hats off to the organizers. I never will know what you get out of it.
Cheers!
Jim

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 07:42 PM

Not fat, that's for sure. I share Jim's appreciation. Folk clubs gave me some of the best nights of my life.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST, Anon FPR
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 03:55 AM

Yes it's not really fair to blame organisers for not taking risks on mid-range pros. The problem is that audiences have become more choosy, less willing to put up with increasingly grim pubs, turn out on cold or wet nights, less willing (or able) to shell out decent money, more set in their tastes, less interested in listening to anyone else perform etc etc.

It's not really the audience's fault either. It's just what happens with age and the social changes we're seeing in the UK now.

But some people can be horribly snooty. Even when you can show you're 'successful' in most other clubs in the land they seem to say - ah but that doesn't mean you're good enough for US (and I'm not talking about big concert clubs, now - just ordinary every day ones).

Only the other day I heard an organiser ask, doubtfully, if Spiers and Bowden might be good enough to play their club!

I mean - where have they BEEN?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 04:08 AM

To at least answer in part why organisers do it - it means they can book the artists they like!! Incidentally the same goes for all but the largest festival organisers in my experience too!

On the subject of Spiers and Boden - there is no central folk club in Sheffield (in the traditional sense) - so with a gap in their latest tour and knowing at least one of them could get home to their partner and child - they put one on themselves. Got the room, set it all up themselves, chair PA etc sold tickets through an agency and got about 140 in at £8.00 per head.

Sold loads of CD's, and they had a portable credit card machine too. paid the sound man, and PA hire presumably and took the rest of the money themselves. No support act did 8.30pm - 9.15pm and 9.30ish to 10.45pm. And they were fantastic as always.

Speaking to the landlady, she said "I was a bit doubtful letting the room to a folk duo. I didn't know they were going to be that good!!"

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 05:49 AM

>>Only the other day I heard an organiser ask, doubtfully, if Spiers and Bowden might be good enough to play their club!<<

I can't beleive that an organiser would ask that sort of question.

My question is always "Does so and so have the capability of attracting an audience" If they can attract an audience, thats half the battle.

Irrespective, I always think the organiser should do everything in their power to publicise the event to ensure a good audience. They should never assume that the name itself will do that job for them.

At the end of the day though, it comes down to finance. The organiser should know their market and what they are able to acheive.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 06:51 AM

The fairest way for booked performers would seem to be door money, which would reflect the ability of the performer to pull in extra people, with "a guarantee, to keep the organisers on their toes" as greg said. And that latter should perhaps be a flat, and openly stated rate, to avoid a downward cost-cutting spiral.

I think there's a distinction between an evening with a booked performer whose the main act who people have come to see, with a couple of floor singers or whatever to warm up, on the one hand, and, on the other, a regulars' session in which there might be a few extra spots for some guest who maybe had come some distance, and is there for free or for beer money and to build up experience.

There are two ways to look at this - one is the one in which the bottom line is making the club pay, with performers and punters seen as the way to achieve this, and the other is the one in which the bottom line is keeping the music alive, and that includes keeping the performers alive and active. Two sides to the same coin.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 07:19 AM

Folkiedave

To at least answer in part why organisers do it - it means they can book the artists they like!!

Thank you, Dave. I was working towards saying something like that.

We book artists because we want to hear them and we hope our audiences do as well. We take no account of whether they are professors of sociology or refuse disposal operatives during the day or spend all their time practicing till their fingers turn green; it's what they do on stage that counts.

You can't steal the gigs from the pros because they don't belong to them. They belong to us and we provide them for free to whoever we choose.

As for "preferably with a guarantee, to keep the organisers on their toes"... Oh yes, it will do that. We'll lose money on you once if we like what you do or think you need some encouragement on the way up but if it happens twice, you can do it for the door or not at all.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 08:05 AM

Having been all three , Club organiser , Semi Pro local singer AND Full Pro , let me say that this is one of the more interesting threads i have read for a while ! A lot of very good sense , and very little nastiness . Prsonally , these days , IF I think I am going to enjoy myself , I will work VERY Cheap - as long as I am NOT Subsidising an organisers lifestyle ! IF Its going to be hard Work , or a long distance drive , the fee goes UP ! And a lot of clubs run singers nights at a good profit so that they CAN book expensive acts
which the door take will not cover .

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST, Anon FPR
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 08:39 AM

TheSnail says "You can't steal the gigs from the pros because they don't belong to them. They belong to us and we provide them for free to whoever we choose"

That's entirely your right, of course, TheSnail, you do all the work and take all the risk - so you call the shots and that's as it should be.

But I sometimes wonder to what extent you, and other organisers, feel you are perhaps custodians of Folk Music in your area (as the landed genry are merely custodians of their stately homes!), so feel some wider responsibility for the survial of the genre in your patch, and also even, to a certain extent, the survival of the touring muso as a species.

You see, because the market is so small, the distance between clubs tends to be set by geographic forces - rather as market towns developed across the countryside two day's walk apart (one day's march from any point between).

There are areas where clubs survive despide being close together, but normally if you are running a successful club, you are making it fairly unlikely that another club will be set up and flourish in your vicinity. And I doubt many clubs would welcome a new rival parking his tank on their lawn! So you are effectively a gatekeeper as well as a facilitator.

If you decide you don't like an artist for whatever reason, you are effectively closing that town to them for good - and making it harder for folk fans in that town to hear that artist.

Is this ever a factor in your deliberations I wonder?

There are areas of the country I'm unlikely ever to play - even though I may have fans there who have seen me at festivals or elsewhere, and who would love me to come - because the incumbant club does not want me, and there's no alternative in that patch.

This can be a very sore point for those of us who do it for a living. Is it a point of view you'd ever have any sympathy for?