Spanish pronunciation

Subject: Spanish pronunciation
From: Trevor
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 06:40 AM

I'm sure I'm being a bit dense about this , but how should the 'ch' be pronounced in the 'Chiu' bit of the Spanish villancico 'Rhiu rhiu chiu'? It's supposed to be the sound of a nightingale I think.

I suppose while I'm on I can just check about 'ribero' as well - is the 'b' pronounced as a 'v', and is the 'ero' pronounced as 'airo' or 'eero'?

Subject: RE: Spanish pronunciation
From: GUEST,clockwatcher
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:06 AM

in standard spanish (castilian) 'ch' is pronounced pretty much like it is in the english word 'church'

Subject: RE: Spanish pronunciation
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:11 AM

cheee-oo, more or less. There is a very slight u sound before the oo. It rhymes with rhiu. And the b is pronounced as b. 'ree-bairo'. Often the v is also pronounced as a very soft b instead of v.

The r's are all single rolled too. Do this by 'flippin' (?) the tongue off the roof of the mouth behind the front teeth.

Subject: RE: Spanish pronunciation
From: Trevor
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:24 AM

Thanks eber so!

Subject: RE: Spanish pronunciation
From: mack/misophist
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 09:45 AM

As with any language that is spoken in a number of countries, there are dialects. Spanish is pretty consistant but there are dialects. And differing accents.

Subject: RE: Spanish pronunciation
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 09:54 AM

Yes, but he asked about Spanish...not Castilian, Mexican, Catalan, etc.

Subject: RE: Spanish pronunciation
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 11:28 AM

CATALAN IS NOT A DIALECT - use of caps deliberate - but a smiley as well :-)

It has its own grammar and thus is a separate language - one of the romance set based on latin which includes Spanish Portugese Italian French Romanian and Catalan.

One of the big differences is in the construction of the past tenses - unusually it uses the verb "to go" as an auxiliary instead of the verb "to have" as we do in English and as Castellano does. There are lots of differences in grammar as well but that is the obvious one.

Subject: RE: Spanish pronunciation
From: Trevor
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 11:35 AM

Glad I asked! :-)

Subject: RE: Spanish pronunciation
From: Barb'ry
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 11:38 AM

Sorry for the slight thread drift but I learned this as a kid in school and had almost forgotten it until I recognised the chorus bit. Does anyone have the lyrics? I'd love to relearn them - memory and ability allowing :-))

Subject: RE: Spanish pronunciation
From: Trevor
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 11:54 AM

Here you are:

Riu, riu, chiu
La guarda ribera
Dios guarde el lobo
De nuestra cordera.

El lobo rabioso la quiso morder,
Mas Dios poderoso la supo defender;
Quisole hazer que no pudiesse pecar,
Ni aun original esta Virgen no tuviera.
Riu, riu, chiu, etc.

Este qu'es nascido es el gran monarca,
Cristo patriarca de carne vestido;
Hanos redimido con se hazer chiquito,
Aunqu'era infinito, finito se hizera.
Riu, riu, chiu, etc.

Muchas profecias lo han profetizado,
Y aun en nuestros dias lo hemos alcancado.
A Dios humanado vemos en el suelo
Y al hombre nel cielo porqu'er le quisiera.
Riu, riu, chiu, etc.

Yo vi mil Garzones que andavan cantando,
Por aqui bolando, haciendo mil sones,
Diziendo a gascones Gloria sea en el cielo,
Y paz en el suelo qu'es Jesus nascieta.
Riu, riu, chiu, etc.

Este viene a dar a los muertos vida
Y viene a reparar de todos la caida;
Es la luz del dia aqueste mocuelo;
Este es el cordero que San Juan dixera.
Riu, riu, chiu, etc.
Pues que ya tenemos lo que desseamos,
Todos juntos vamos presentes llevemos;
Todos le daremos nuestra voluntad,
Pues a se igualar con el hombre viniera.
Riu, riu, chiu, etc

Subject: RE: Spanish pronunciation
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 05:57 PM

Insert Riu riu in Search and find lyrics and translation. The numachi Digital Tradition Mirror site has a much clearer presentation and brief history.
Riu Riu

Often attributed to Mateo Flecha (El Viejo). Published 1556 in Cancionero de Uppsala.

The lyrics as posted by Trevor lack the next-to-last verse and there are a few 'errors' in spelling- but there are variations in rendering some words in these old songs.

In the DT, uirgen is found for Virgin and uestido for vestido, uida for vida, etc., probably transcribed from a copy of old printing.

I think that this song should have a separate thread. I will try to find additional or different verses before posting.

Chanticleer has a colorful version in one of their cds.

Subject: RE: Spanish pronunciation
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 06:43 PM

Sorry, Dave...the unwashed masses strike again.

Subject: RE: Spanish pronunciation
From: Barb'ry
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 03:07 AM

Thanks for the lyrics and the links - I will relearn it.
B

Subject: RE: Spanish pronunciation
From: GUEST,granger
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 08:58 PM

Hi this is Granger the one kid with blonde hair.Who goes to your school

Subject: RE: Spanish pronunciation
From: Sorcha
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 09:22 PM

Huh?

Subject: RE: Spanish pronunciation
From: GUEST,Monique
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 03:57 AM

In Spanish, v and b are pronounced the same way (b) but between vowels, you don't totally close your lips to allow some air out.
Spanish e's are pronounced like the u in bury but in er and el where it's pronounced like in bed
ch is pronounced like in English
At that time,
z was pronounced dz , vs th in thick nowadays
j was pronounced like the s in leasure vs strong h nowadays
x was pronounced like sh (this is why Quixote is spellt Quichotte in French -though I wonder why there's a double t- English kept the original spelling and Spanish changed it because the sound shifted to the strong h it has nowadays -splellt j)
v was written u at the initial
you could find apostrophes, double s and ç (missing in moçuelo btw)
Spelling was not set.
This was for spelling. Grammar is another story!

Subject: RE: Spanish pronunciation
From: Trevor
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 01:22 PM

Thanks Monique

Subject: RE: Spanish pronunciation
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 01:27 PM

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KJh0pDMnL8M

Subject: RE: Spanish pronunciation
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 03:30 PM

Current Spanish pronunciation, from Velásquez, 1999 ed. (help from Real Academia Española, Diccionario de la Lengua Española, 2001 ed.)

a- ah
e- ay
i- ee
o- oh
u- u as in bull, or silent (gue, qui, etc.)

b*- bay (bacal = bah cahl; bajada = bah hah dah; baca = bah cah (berry)
c- thay (Castilian, mostly with ce-words; in Latin America
s is commonly used. cenote= thay-no-tay or seh-no- tay). Centro= then-tro
c- k as in carro
ch- tchay (chamaca = cha mah cah (Mex.)
d- day
f- ai fay (falda = fahl dah; feminista = fay me nees tah)
g- hay (genial = hay ne ahl; giganta = he gahn tah; gigas = hee has)
h- ah tchay (usually silent, habla = ah blah; haca = ah cah)
j- hoe tah (José, hoe-'say)
k- kay (only a few foreign words, kilo-)
l- ai lay (lobo = lo bo; llano = lyah no, lloro = lyo ro)
m- ai may (mano = mah no)
n- ai nay (nuevo = noo ay vo)
ñ- ai nyay (dueño, doo ay nyo)
p- pay (peña = pay nyah; pensar = pen sar))
q- coo
r- er ray, erdy (ratón = rah 'tone)
s*- es say (puesta = poo es tah)
t- tay
v*- vay (vaca = vah cah; veloz* = vay loth; vello = vayl lyo)
x- ay kiss (eh kees in Mexico and much of Latin America)
y- griega, or ye jay
z*- thai tah (Castilian zorro = thor ro; Latin America and parts of southern Spain- zoer ro, like English z)

*s- Some older instruction books put a lisp to the s-sound. Words like pues (then), with English pronunciation, would drag out the last syllable, almost a hiss. In Spanish, the sound is usually cut short- not really a lisp.
* b and v similar in some Castillian, but rare outside of that region.

Catalan - see Catalan dictionary. There is some abbreviated material on line. Basque, of course, is quite different from Spanish; not a Romance language.

Subject: RE: Spanish pronunciation
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 03:47 PM

Hasn't anybody got the technolgy to demonstrate the pronunciation, instead of trying to describe it?

Subject: RE: Spanish pronunciation
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 04:34 PM

Learn Argentine Spanish, it sounds so much better!

Subject: RE: Spanish pronunciation
From: NightWing
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 10:25 PM

A rough literal translation (actual Spanish speakers feel free to rip my translation up :-)

Riu, riu, chiu

The shore guard

God keep the wolf

From the Lamb.

The rabid wolf wanted to bite Him,

But almighty God knew to defend Him;

He wanted to make the man who cannot sin,

Not even Original Sin as Our Virgin did not have.

Who is this born? Born is the great king,

Christ our Father made man [lit. "wearing flesh"];

Hanos [Mankind?] redeemed by Himself made very small,

Even the infinite, is made finite.

Many prophets have prophesied it,

and in our days we have even sung it.

God made man we see on Earth

and to the man nel [?] sky to porqu'er [?] wanted to him.

I saw thousands of Garzones [people?] singing in Andavan,

Bolando [dancing?] by here, doing thousands sones [of steps?],

Giving to Men, Gloria in the Highest,

and peace on Earth since Jesus is born.

He comes to give life to the dead

and comes to heal the [sick? lame?];

[Bright?] is the light of that day;

This is the Lamb that spoke to Saint John.

Since we already have what we [desire? deserve?],

All together we will go to offer Him presents;

We will give our souls to him,

Because to make Himself one with man He came.

BB,

NightWing

Subject: RE: Spanish pronunciation
From: GUEST,Monique
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 07:18 AM

You have the right stuff here http://www.languageguide.org/espanol/

Subject: RE: Spanish pronunciation
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 04:45 PM

No me digas! Quiero conocer Agentina por dentro.

Subject: RE: Spanish pronunciation
From: GUEST,simonjester
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 06:24 AM

this confirms my theory that the english taken as a whole are the worst linguists in europe! Catalan is truly a language in its own right more closely allied to french than spanish when actual word structure is examined.
This is is only one of the five official languages of Spain, the others being Galician, Aranese and Euskaria (basque) which is not even in the indo-european languauge group ( let alone the Romance branch of that tree)
occasionaly one may also hear Laddino a language spoken by the morranos (spanish jews who' ve been in hiding since 1492!)
Castillian is your safest bet ---- but not where I live in Catlalonia
take your pick