The Future of Folk Clubs

Subject: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Brendy
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:55 PM

Right....
Let's start off with a few common denominators.

Everyone reading and contributing to this thread loves our respective folk traditions, whether that be English, Irish, Scottish, American, etc. Some (like myself) love folk tradition no matter where it's from, because for me, unlike language, it lets you into the soul of a Nation, and thus it brings people together all the quicker.
I think we all agree, too, that nobody owns the tradition; we got it handed to us on our lap.
I would imagine also that we all wish to bequeath a healthy folk scene to our children & grandchildren, because we know that if the tradition isn't passed down, the tradition gets lost...., and there goes the soul of a Nation.

Audiences seem to be dwindling, folks.
Folk Clubs ain't what they used to be.
Then we only had to deal with the 'The Two Ronnies' on telly as the competition on any Thursday night.
.. yeah, well that was the '70's

Now 'Happy Hours' last all day. If there's a Champion's League game on the box somewhere, guaranteed there'll be a shower of people in the pub that's showing those matches.
Now it's all BUISNESS

To say that a Folk Club is not a 'business', I think, is to overlook certain criteria that is essential to making anything tick over properly, when all around you, your 'competition' is extremely business-like, given the ever-decreasing circles the Service and Entertainment industries have to run in these days.
To call a Folk Club a 'business' does not detract from the intrinsic nature of the Club. Its' integrity remains.
All it does is to open up a way of thinking in the minds of the Club's committee that is constantly focussed on getting your place full every night you have music on, irrespective of who's on the bill.

Getting the word out there and getting people enthused is vital, not for the performer necessarily first and foremost, but for The Club.
The committee should not think of itself as a vehicle to bring artist to audience, in the main.
It should think of itself as a vehicle to bring that audience to The Club

Otherwise the dependency line breaks.
The Club needs to survive, first and foremost.
It needs a fair spattering of 'a cut above average' musicians playing there in order to attract any sort of interest from 'the general public'.
The Club also needs a loyal core of members that will turn out every week, even if it's only to fill the place up a little in case any 'real people' come in.
The Club needs engagement and enthusiasm from the committee, because they are the people on whose shoulders the tradition has come to rest, and it is they who took that upon themselves the day they made the Charter for the Club.
Whether they would realise that or not at the time, is entirely down to them.
But that is the responsibility everyone who takes on a Folk Club bears.

You can nurture it... or you can crush it.

To compete in the ever decreasing circles is getting harder.
Pubs will close in the wake of the smoking ban, and it will remain that downward way for a while, until the tide will turn and people will get used to it.
I've seen it in happen in Norway and Ireland, and it does come right again.

But there will be less pubs around, though by the time it's all levelled out.
And it might take a few Clubs with it before it does level out.
Now is the time to look at what's coming, and re-evaluate the business model.

And if you're not getting the bums on the seats, remember that 90% is your fault.

There's two old men in Mexico; the last survivors of a race of people, and they have their own language.
These two men have stopped talking to each other, and the experts who have been studying the language are afraid that if they don't start talking again soon, the language may be lost.
... now there's a metaphor....

When the last of the folk singers sings the last song, what then?

B.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: IanC
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 03:15 AM

Sorry, but I'm really not sure that Folk Clubs have that much to do with Folk Traditions. These things continue very well, in general, without much help from Folk Clubs.

I know this thread's about Folk Clubs, but I don't think that their survival should be in any way confused with the survival of the Folk Tradition.

Ian

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 03:22 AM

Far more folk music about now when there was at the height of the folk club boom.

Sessions and festivals maybe and not folk clubs - but it is there. The death of folk music has been predicted a number of times. They all got it wrong so far and I am positive that your prediction - if it is indeed a prediction - will be amongst them.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 04:24 AM

It's been my impression, in my immediate local area, that formal 'old style' folk clubs have been on the decline since their heyday in the 1970s & 80s.

This is not to say that folky events have died away, but rather have evolved into more participatory singaround/music session type gatherings.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,sparticus
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 04:39 AM

Banjiman seems to be following your model Brendy. I'm sure that he's reading your posts with great interest - they're good.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 05:02 AM

Brendy is absolutely cock on with one thing - its the mean spiritnedness that has holed the operation below the waterline.

You get detractors in whatever you do in life. But the guys (and ladies) who run folk clubs seem to raise a really virulent form of bile from the viscera of their fellow folkies.

The ability to run a successful club - okay,(I hear the critics hitting the drone pipe already) some of it may be fortuitous in choosing a good location etc. - but,to me is a very special talent and one that isn't lauded highly enough. It is a rare quality, quite as wonderful as anything the guest singer may bring to the table.

The folk clubs are precisely where people who care about the real tradition are to be found. The real folk tradition is the property of the people. In olden days when social mobility was much less - stable communities had generations create and refine traditions.

Nowadays society is much more amorphous in nature - only this week we had someone in Chicago in mudcat trying to put together and English folkmusic band. The folk club movement is an embodiment of a conscious desire that we do have a living folkmusic.

If the tradtion to you is just a load of stuff that Cecil Sharp got from societies that were on their way out anyway, then your vision of folk music is indeed facing a doomsday scenario, only fit for academia to browse over in libraries. But if you feel there is something of yourself in the music that you want to express - take it to a folk club. What a modern audience does to your music (and it does impose conditions!) may not leave it as it was in the 18th century. But who really knows how they sang - surely whats important is the way WE relate to the music.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: redsnapper
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 05:06 AM

Brendy, as always, talks a lot of sense.

Part of the problem, as I see it, is an internal one to the community...

What is a folk club?
What is a folk tradition?
What is a folk singer?
What is a folksong singer?
Are a folk singer and a folksong singer the same thing?
Does all of this comply with the 1954 definition?
Is AniDiFranco a folk singer or is she a folksong or is she neither or both?
Is the term (add genre or category here) just used for marketing purposes?
Can traditional and singer songwriter genres both be considered folk?
And the big one... What is folk?
And on and on (ad nauseam)...

All of this, and the stridency of the various protagonists, almost tempted me to abandon the Mudcat after more than eight years.

But I love my music (several genres) far too much for that and so do a lot of other people so I think folk clubs (whatever they are or will become) have a good future.

RS

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 05:18 AM

I have exchanged views with Brendy on the "stealing gigs" thread...and though I don't agree with everything he says, his posts are well thought out a well as thought provoking.

From a previous thread, Brendy's main interest seems to be how to maintain the opportunity for "professional" performance......which given that he is a professional musician is understandable!

Therefore I think this thread is very much orientated to this take on the "folk club".

Sparticus is correct...I am going to give a "performance" club a whirl. Though we will also be singing around into the wee small hours following "the performance", where possible and reasonable I will expect the main acts to stay for at least part of this.

The "performances" therefore provides a focus...but is certainly not the only aspect to the club......as we are fairly remote from large conurbations we are likely to get (and need)to attract a number of overnighters, therefore I want to try and create a mini-festival each month. Singarounds/ sessions can be extended to Sunday breakfast/ lunch if people want this.

My view is that the "professional" performer has an important role to play in the development of the folk "market (i.e. people who listen to folk music) as well as preservation of the heritage.

I also enjoy watching "good" performance in a fairly informal atmosphere (i.e. pubs or similar). I find arts centres/theatres a little impersonal.....I also like to have the opportunity (as I think others do) to be able to exchange a few words with the "pro's"....

I guess I am trying to create something I would like to go to once a month......

and hope it strikes a chord with others too.

Kirkby Fleetham Folk Club web site

KFFC Mudcat Thread

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 05:21 AM

I think IanC and others have a point. Folk Clubs are not exactly central to folk music nowadays. They had a crucial and central role in the folk revival of the 50's and 60's but but progressively less so since. They are wonderful institutions, but not the core of the music. And as IanC said, they were never anything much to do with "the tradition"(however you understand that term) in any case."The tradition" was the social force that made the songs and tunes, the folk clubs were meetings for people who liked the music that the tradition had produced, so we had get-togethers where we could perform and listen in a safe environment. I don't think anybody imagined the clubs were to be the centre of anything, they were seen more as incubators/seedbeds where music could be nurtured before re-release into the wild. The clubs also became a very good place for singer-songwriters to try out their stuff, but that is another story.
   I thought a bit of a statistical look might be interesting. I am actively involved as a professional musician in the palying and teaching of traditional folk music, and have been for forty something years, so I am probably a reasonable bit of litmus paper to locate where the folk action is. I've just done a bit of a classification of the last twenty gigs I've played with the Boat Band, and it makes interesting reading in the context of this discussion. They break down as follows.
4 pubs
3 Private functions(birthdays/weddings)
3 Community events
3 Folk festivals
2 Other festivals
2 dances
2 Unclassifiable arts events
1 Folk club

That seems to me to show that we (and therefore the folk music we play) are getting to quite a broad range of gigs.It also shows that only one gig out of the twenty is a folk club, which suggests that the clubs are not that crucial a part of the general folk scene nowadays. A significant part, certainly, but minor. I live in a medium sized city at the moment(Stoke-on-Trent), and to the best of my belief there is only one folk club here, but there are loads of other outlets for folk music.The conclusion is inescapable: I am absolutely sure the folk clubs were the main purveyors of folk in say 1967, but they aren't in 2007.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: synbyn
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 05:29 AM

Round here you can, if prepared to travel 40 miles, be out every day of the week at a folkclub. Mostly they survive on singers nights with a fortnightly or monthly guest, but principally they survive on participation. But which is a club and which a session?

Agree with the point about sessions- I think more people now go out to perform and fewer solely to listen- and once a session reaches a critical point, about 15-20, they don't get their go often enough and decide to start their own session, likewise if they feel the emphasis has become a genre which they don't want to play all evening. Sometimes it's ego, let's be honest! OK, so hardly any of us are ploughboys, but we sing and play for the same reasons: to bring a bit of joy into our lives.

We've discussed all the ins and outs of the professional scene on a couple of other threads. I agree with the postings above. Folk music is a world apart from commercial use of folk music. Once you think 'club' you have committees and accounts, these days you have to tread carefully through licensing laws and avaricious 'bar managers'- small wonder that professionals are finding that fewer venues exist which can sustain them.The future of folk clubs would be greatly enhanced by making the process less draconian- but of course this would mean the big interests who want to shut down the minnows would have less control. Or am I too cynical?

All the best from the fishpond

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 05:35 AM

Village Halls play a major part these days.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: joseph
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 05:38 AM

As long as we have musicians encouraging young people to play and singers encouraging the youth to sing folk will never die. However over here in Ireland in my home town of Lurgan in the Count Armagh there are many sessions combined with traditional music. You have to have both to survive. It's amazing the number of talented musicians
and singers out there. They get together weekley and monthly at sessions and are always encouragin people to play

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 05:42 AM

Absolutely agree with what the Villan says above. I'm playing in four village halls next week: I've never played four folk club gigs in a week in my life!

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Santa
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 06:16 AM

The British have a tradition of forming clubs. Whether this is for folk music or steam railway enthusiasts or plastic model aeroplanes or knitting or book reading or whatever. There were a lot of folk music clubs in the 60s/70s when folk music was genuinely widely popular because it overlapped with popular music. There are fewer nowadays because it doesn't, and it is often thought "untrendy". There are fewer shops selling plastic model aircraft too, partly for similar reasons.

But model clubs still exist, even thrive. Folk clubs still exist, even thrive. Music clubs differ from most, however. No-one is going to go regularly to a knitting circle unless they knit. In music clubs, not everyone who attends is a performer, or necessarily wants to be a performer, or play an instrument, or sing themselves. They just like folk music, and the club is the only place where they can regularly go and hear the music, and meet with fellow enthusiasts. Concerts are not social, and are more expensive. Local sessions and singarounds just do not fill this social gap. The internet may be weakening this dependence on the club, with music stations and social networks such as Mudcat, but has a long way to go. The growth of sessions may be weakening the clubs by drawing away talent, but they are basically restricted to performers and cannot play the same role. The number of festivals may be weakening the clubs, as the more enthusiastic can travel to different festivals each weekend, but that is limited to the socially and/or financially mobile.

Until folk music becomes restricted to performers talking only to themselves, there will be a place for clubs. The exact format may well differ from the classic 1970s style.   Locally there are as many clubs as there were 30 years ago, but I see much less emphasis on guest performers. The role of the club in encouraging and supporting professionals clearly has shrunk. I don't see the answer in better publicity: that might well help a few marginal clubs but can only have small and local effects. If you want a return to sufficient healthy folk clubs to provide good wages for large numbers of professional artists, the answer lies in folk music becoming popular again.

And that can only come from the performers. If professionals want to make more money they must make more popular music. If folk music doesn't sell, then by all means play in theme pubs, the music people want. If you can bend their tastes in the direction of folk, so much the better. If that means melding the more traditional folk with more popular music forms, so much the better. It was done in the 60s. People didn't flock to folk clubs because they took a sudden liking to purist traditional folk. They went because protest folk was popular with the young, and folk rock was popular, and there were artists who fed off this popularity.

Those who attend modern folk clubs are rarely hard core traditionalists. They are people who heard Dylan and Steeleye Span when they were young, and grew to appreciate the roots of the songs those artists used. We've had a generation without (or nearly without) such popular support: where "folk" became identified with comedians such as Capstick, Carrot and Connolly rather than the music. We've had a generation where political protest was marginalised. There are signs that the scene is improving - let's hope so. But it isn't going to expand again without popular support. More of the same, however good, just isn't going to do it.

Regardless, the clubs will continue: smaller maybe, cheaper maybe, but they aren't going to stop as long as people like gathering together to hear folk music. Not to play, not to sing, but simply to hear.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 08:01 AM

perhaps as you are all so good at predictions,tell us the winning horse at cheltenham 2 30 today,Spot The Difference.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 10:00 AM

yes ,good old spot.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: treewind
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 10:35 AM

To be fair Greg, as a band that plays a lot of dance music the Boat Band is not a typical folk club guest. Most clubs can't afford bands anyway, and as a band you are more likely than a singer or duo to get pub and community event bookings.

Nevertheless you make a good point by listing many examples of places where folk music is being played to the public outside of clubs. I suspect that you actively seek bookings in such places (and very commendable that is too), and that's reflected in your figures.

We mostly play at folk clubs and festivals as a duo, but we're also in a ceilidh band that never plays at folk clubs...

Anahata

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 10:43 AM

Bloody hell Dick, why you bother with singing with tips like that?

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 12:42 PM

Folkie Dave,
I hope you had something on it,
you know how once you get the bug for playing music ,you cant stop.
Inever made much money[but Iknew that before Istarted]enough to get by on it,but I have had some good times, met some lovely women,and sampled some excellent pints.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: synbyn
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 05:56 AM

Wow, this thread isn't drifting and everyone, especially Santa,'s talking sense... come on guys!

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 06:14 AM

I think everybody should be supporting the Village Halls. They are not commercial and if people don't use them, they will lose them.
That would be a great shame.
Most Village Halls will if they can see that somebody is going to use the hall regularly, will hire it out at a very reasonable rate.

Having said that, there are some stupid arseholes that run village halls who becuase they see it probably being the only thing that makes some money, put the price up thinking they will make more money.

Having gone through that twice, third time lucky. Faldingworth memorial Hall are great and have kept to their promises.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 06:35 AM

treewind/anahata makes an interesting point thatthe Boat Band probably seeks out gigs outside the folk scene. I'm not sure about that, but we have certainly developed ouselves in ways that are obviously more attractive outside than inside the scene, as is obvious in our patterns of bookings.
Having made the effort to analyse the last twenty times I've played, it made quite an interesting read. Anahata says he plays more clubs than we do: would he, and anyone else interested, care to post on this thread a breakdown of the last twenty places you've played, clasified by types of event? This would give a very interesting snapshot of where the folk is going on at this precise moment in time. Get your calendars out and start classifying!

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 06:37 AM

Village Halls are great for some types of events....we have run workshops and had some gigs in our local Village Hall and these have been successful on all levels....we will do so again as well. However, there is something about the coziness of a pub, especially in winter that just can't be beaten. Especially an oldy worldy pub with beams and an open fire!

We are using the our Village Hall at the KFFC Winter Warmer Weekend for indoor camping, the agreement with the Village Hall committee is that they will just keep any money raised. I feel good about this as we are putting something back into our local community......we will also make a donation to the school (if we sell enough tickets!!) and borrow their staging as well. Village life huh!

Paul

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 07:07 AM

>>Village life huh<<

You can't beat it.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 07:15 AM

>>Get your calendars out and start classifying! <<

Thats got them all busily scurrying away LOL

Very interesting there Greg

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 07:17 AM

They bring their own challeges. A few years ago, Derek Brimstone asked to do the PA for him at the catholic club in Buxton.

Anyway - this hall - the room doubled as a church.

If you know Derek's act, you know that he uses facial expression a lot, so there I was setting the microphone up.

This caretaker bloke comes up and says - you can't do that!

I said I'm putting the microphone on the stage is all I'm doing.

he says, that is not a stage - that is an altar - you keep off that!

So, there I am thinking, this guy's crackers. But I just said, well people won't see him, he's only a little guy.

He said, your're not using that altar and that's final. he stands down there on the floor

And sure enough most of the audience couldn't see Del, just this disembodied voice coming from the front. Wasn't one of his best gigs.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 09:33 AM

"Round here you can, if prepared to travel 40 miles, be out every day of the week at a folkclub"

Round here it's only about 5 miles in any direction. There's not a problem, other than deciding where you want to go, and that depends simply on what type of music night you're looking for. Seems to me that the "Folk Clubs" of the 60's and 70's have morphed into a myriad of folk music venues catering for every possible taste.

As far as folk clubs catering for the pro performers are concerned, maybe there aren't as many as there used to be, but there's no shortage of work out there if the "product" on offer is marketable.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 09:46 AM

"but there's no shortage of work out there if the "product" on offer is marketable."

He he ....................

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 09:46 AM

Villan,

>>Village life huh<<

You can't beat it.

Gets my vote too!

There's an interesting angle here that probably bears some discussion...is there any difference between the folk scene in rural villages and larger conurbations. Are folk clubs in one or the other more likely to survive or prosper?

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 02:41 PM

Well I think you have to be more careful who you book and work harder as an organiser in the rural areas if you are going to succeed.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 07:05 AM

Saw Jon Strong at the Wortley Folk - Black Bull, Ecclesfield, last night. The place was packed out - folk clubs still going strong apparently.......

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 07:08 AM

... and as for Jon Strong, to all club organisers - this message (as the saying goes):

"Book him Danno"

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 07:39 AM

I don't think we should forget that it is the audience who decides what sort of acts are put on at a folk club, and a good organisers job to know which acts will put bums on seats or which are affordable within the criteria the members set out. The club belongs to the members, it is the organisers job to present as much affordabe entertainment as possible, familiar acts, new acts, groups, comedy. Organisers are subject to bombardment and I regret some bullying by acts on a daily basis from 'you've never hear of me but I would be great for your club even though I have never been there' to 'We played there 18 months ago and it is time we had another booking" or agents saying they have arranged a tour and can do our club on the 18th can we confirm.excuse me?
Our folk clubs are social gatherings for music lovers who enjoy music and each others company, not a slots in a diary for musicians. and yes I like Jon Strong too.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 07:44 AM

"I don't think we should forget that it is the audience who decides what sort of acts are put on at a folk club"

Unfortunately, it doesn't always work like this. Some organisers book according to personal preference, or who they think the audience should see, and then wonder why there's an abundance of empty seats.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 08:11 AM

Linda Kelly, Lowden Jameswright....so what does that tell us about the future of Folk Clubs?

How does an organiser ensure that they are providing what the audience wants....how do new acts get heard?

I too am starting to get bombarded...I don't mind as long as acts are realistic......I can't book somebody unheard of or with no local profile as a main guest(however good they are).

I will offer them an expenses only support slot (if I like the sound of their demo etc- chance to build a local profile), I always think the response to this offer from an act tells you a lot about the size of their ego! No response is REALLY, REALLY annoying........

With the boot on the other foot...when I am trying to get gigs from other clubs, it REALLY, REALLY annoys me when organisers don't reply. I don't mind any kind of (polite!) response but when people just ignore an email, letter, phone message etc it is just bad manners!

What does this tell us about the future of folk clubs? Maybe that it is a buyers market....which drives impolite behaviour from "bombarded" club organisers....

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 08:14 AM

Lowden, I'm sure the organisers of you local club would welcome suggestions or recommendations. You could even offer to help.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Mikefule
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 08:30 AM

Folk music has only little to do with style or content, and very much to do with context. A few friends in a pub singing for their own entertainment is folk music. A superstar performing the same song on stage to a paying audience is something different. Much as I like it, Thin Lizzy singing "Whiskey in the Jar" was not folk music. On the other hand, a few mates singing "Why Why Why Delilah" in the pub is something like folk music.

Much of the traditional *material* is saved forever. It is written down, recorded, and on CD and video. Anyone with a basic knowledge of music, some enthusiasm and some time, could go and learn "The Seeds of Love" from permanent resources.

But the context is more fragile. When we stop thinking of "folk" as something we do, and start thinking of it only as something we buy, the battle will be lost. Tradition is an activity, not a product.

Folk clubs have a role in preserving the context. They are artificial, compared to an informal session, but they do provide a context for a range of performers to perform among friends for each others' enjoyment.

So folk clubs have to be fun, and both inviting and welcoming. I am regularly one of the youngest people present, at 45. We don't necessarily need an input of young people, but we certainly need an input of **younger** people. If they don't enjoy their first visit, there may be no second visit.

So next time you go to your folk club, look around the room. how would you see it if it was your first visit, and you knew no one there? Look at it as an outsider. Is it cliquey? Do the people look bored? Is there laughter?

Next time you go, think about your own song or tune: does it suit your voice and style? Do you know it well? Are you performing it properly, or just battling bravely to the end of it? Does it leave people clapping politely, or smiling and applauding? Was it suitable? Was a perfect performance of a 10 verse ballad appropriate to that part of the evening?

Folk club organisers are of course volunteers, but should not be immune to "critique" - which is slightly different from "criticism".

Do you carefully choose what order to put floor singers on? or do you favour your mates? Do you know when to ask "Big Dave" to liven things up after two or three dirges? Or do you just pass the "conch shell" around the room clockwise, regardless of who comes up next? If there is a new visitor, do you speak to them in the interval? Do you include them in the banter? Introduce them to someone?

Does your club have a website, and advertise outside the "folky community"?

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 08:40 AM

Mike.....Beat you I'm 42!

I was at The Pot House Folk Club in Hartlepool on Friday evening...it is run by TThe Young 'uns
....3 lads in their early 20's. It was vibrant, funny and eclectic. Sean & Mike from the Young 'uns made a very good job at getting around the room and talking to everyone.

This is a "singaround" club not a "performance" club.....I do think we need opportunities for both though. There have always been paid musicians, they are as much part of the tradition as an informal sing.

Paul

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 09:20 AM

Meeting and greeting and making people feel at home is very very important. If you don't do that you have failed. That apploes to the performers, new people or existing audience.

The first visit I made to a folk club in Lincolnshire was at Gainsborough Folk Club. Mr & Mrs Sooz conned me into going LOL :-) and then threw Busy Bee Paul at me to look after me for the night (phew that was an experience he he :-) ) and it all had a very profound effect on me and 5 years later I still cant get away from this bloody Folk thing :-)
Say they hadn't done that,I would have been living in luxury and listening to Little Richard, Jerry Lee lewis, Buddy Holly, Elvis Presley, Eddy Cochran - anybody but that bloody folk world. I would also be sane. chuckle chuckle grin grin..

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 11:23 AM

The most likley thing is that they'll die off, apart from a few indestructibles - and then there'll be a rediscovery and revival by a new generation.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Mikefule
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 11:25 AM

Nothing wrong with Jerry Lee Lewis, Buddy Holly, or Eddie Cochran.

I saw Jerry Lee Lewis perform a few years ago. Despite age, infirmity and various addictions, a great performer - although clearly perplexed and irritated by his UK audience still seeing him exclusively as a red hot rock and roller, when he has been playing country, blues, gospel and other "grown up" stuff for a quarter of a century.

I missed Buddy Holly by a few years, but did see The Crickets once. The new singer had a hard act to follow, but did his best.

I missed Eddie Cochran by a few years, too. A huge talent with a fine eye for detail when writing songs. Had he lived, he may have matured into one of the very best singer songwriters.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Santa
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 12:21 PM

Lowden: I don't see these as alternatives, but complementary. Yes, the organiser has to issue return invitations to popular acts, but this doesn't rule out trying some previously-unseen act on another night. I don't see how you can avoid the organiser's own tastes coming into the matter, we're all human after all, but a wise organiser listens to what the regulars say. After their first appearance at Fylde, our organiser was bombarded with comments from clubmembers - you've got to book Cloudstreet! They were booked.

I also feel that organisers do have some obligation - morally - to try new acts even without personal recomendation from within the club. That has to be dependent upon the organiser's own judgement. How else can it be? Then there are the times when a planned programme just isn't working - maybe Jez Lowe is in Australia, Les Barker's in America, so-and-so is asking too much money, whatever....and a gap has to be filled, so let's give X a try.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 12:41 PM

Mikefule
>>Nothing wrong with Jerry Lee Lewis, Buddy Holly, or Eddie Cochran.
<<

Indeed and I am sure Lowden Jameswright would agree as well.
Rock & Roll remains the very tops on my list.
I think its really nice when somebody slips an old song in from that Genre into the middle of their folk gig.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 01:14 PM

an organizer ensures that its audience gets what it wants by er talking to the audience -dispensing promo CD's for review asking them to listen to You tube, getting them to let you know what acts they have liked and what they haven't, invite people for support; I have issued questionnaires to ask what type of acts they want, have special theme nights to encourage people to participate and do different types of material - we have a great time great singers and songwriters, many of whom should be professional and we do not label ourselves a folk club -whatever we have at our club it works, but we are not large, we save like mad to afford larger groups and rely upon dedicated people to keep it going. The future of folkclubs is down to hardwork and teamwork

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 01:20 PM

Linda
>>I have issued questionnaires to ask what type of acts they want,<<

Thats all very well until somebody asks for Shirley Bassey LOL

Agree with your comments.

Les

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 02:25 PM

I could give you the contact details for a Shirley Bassey impersonator. Not sure of his availability.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 02:36 PM

Shirley Bassey....I think my granny told me about her!

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 03:00 PM

erm -I like Shirley Bassey and she topped the bill at Glastonbury!

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: SimonS
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 03:06 PM

Do you not think you're all confusing 'folk clubs' with 'tradition'. A folk club is no more traditional than rock and roll, both having been invented sometime in the middle of last century. The tradition won't die out with clubs - it managed just fine for hundreds of years before that.

I think the folk club network is ailing for a number of reasons, but if people at large are interested it'll survive, if not they won't. If it doesn't survive it won't be that great a tragedy because something else will take its place. Due to the state of the mainstream recorded music industry, the live music industry is booming at the moment and an extension of that is that people will always want to participate in music as well as watch. The traditions of England are safe, but they might re-emerge where least expected... Thats the most exciting thing.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Mikefule
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 04:09 PM

I agree that folk clubs are a recent cultural phenomenon, but they developed because the tradition had become marginalised and people needed someowhere to go to "find" folk music. That was also a recent phenomenon.

Around the world in all civilisations, traditional culture soon dissolves in the face of mass marketing and consumerism. Well, either it dissolves, or it becomes mass marketed to consumers!

The club phenomenon now exists, and although it may not be the only answer, or even the best answer, it is *an* answer to how we keep the flame burning.

We live in a society where for most people the ideal is to avoid making any effort, ever. Status is achieved and displayed through possessions and brands, rather than through personal achievements and skills. "I want it now, not next week."

Folk music isn't competing on equal terms with rock and pop music. In some ways, it has more in common with model engineering or judo: it is mainly kept going by a tiny minority of people who still want to invest effort in a craft.

Even in this forum, there is a thread asking which is an easy instrument to learn...

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 04:20 PM

The term 'folk club' has a limited life, and so it should. The concept will never die. WHile people want to sing and listen they will continue to do so. In my opinion, that is.

D,

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 04:21 PM

Oh - and I claim page 2!

:D

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 04:58 PM

Linda Kelly, I didn't say there was anything wrong with Shirley Bassey just that my Granny really liked her.....I saw Tom Jones and Rolf Harris at Glasto back in the day....along with some good bands as well! (actually both Tom & Rolf were pretty good...but I have my street cred to think about)...and they weren't as good as The Levellers, Steeleye Span, Jah Wobble, The Cure, The Pixies....and many many many more. Actually that's a thought ....I wonder if any of them would come and play KFFC?

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 05:07 PM

I know you didn't Banjiman, and if I thought I could afford the Cure I 'd book them too!

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 05:10 PM

The Cure...The future of Folk???

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: melodeonboy
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 05:26 PM

"A folk club is no more traditional than rock and roll."

Surely that depends on the folk club! I've been to folk clubs where people do little else than produce inferior versions of 60s pop songs, in which case the quotation above might apply. But I've also been to folk clubs where the bulk of the material is traditional. Such clubs provide an environment where we have the chance to both sing/play traditional music and to listen to it. We don't therefore have to "confuse" (as one contributor put it) folk clubs and traditional music. They are clearly not the same thing, but the folk club can have a useful role to play in supporting/furthering traditional music.

Most of us don't have the luxury of strolling into the local pub to find the locals singing in the bar; or a landlord who would encourage us to break into song. Folk clubs (along with other events) can provide us with the hard found space to perform traditional music; they should not be deemed irrelevant to it.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Fidjit
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 06:45 PM

Isn't the Folk club scene a bit of a closed circuit?

Mostly booking the crowd puller and resting on singers nights to stay afoat. Very few book newcomers. They can't afford it.
Shoot me down if I'm wrong.

I can understand Greg and Treewind. going the way that they do.

Not many Folk clubs here where I live (Sweden). It's a closed shop here too.
So you go for the pub night. Which I stopped doing in the 80's.

I go mostly for Library's, museums or cultural events at the local village society. As Folkiedave says. I support the village hall.

Also gallery cafe's and art societey functions too.
Even done some old people's hoomes.

When I visit Britain (can't get used to calling it UK) I hit the festivals and a few clubs where I know I'll get to sing.

Chas

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 07:03 PM

I saw Tom Jones live in Birmingham in 1966 in a nightclub with his band and they were superb. I got a bit fed up of women who couldn't throw their smelly knickers far enough and finished on my head (I was in the front row of tables. That will teach me. LOL
Last year I did something I was very proud about. I booked a stretch Limo that took my Dad who was 90 and my mother who was 89 with carers, from Lincoln to Birmingham NEC to see Shirley Bassey live (front row). They didn't want to go, but when they came back they were raving about the whole event. My Dad went so far as to say that it was the best thing that had happened in his life (My mom wasn't too pleased LOL). Sadly he died 2 months later. Very spooky.

I want to get Billy Conolly to Faldingworth!!!!!! Maybe if I get to 90 Spooky.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 07:11 PM

Blimey I got John Conolly on my mind :-)

Billy Connolly

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 07:24 PM

Fidjit

Isn't the Folk club scene a bit of a closed circuit?

Mostly booking the crowd puller and resting on singers nights to stay afoat. Very few book newcomers. They can't afford it.
Shoot me down if I'm wrong.

Perhaps we work to a different "business model" but staying afloat isn't an issue if every night finances itself. All our guests get paid from the take on the door (or from the day if it's part of our workshop series) regardless of whether they are a local star or national Big Name. We don't use cheap guests to finance the expensive ones. We try to cover the spectrum from the famous to singers nights. Last night we had Too Many Strings; I think they are all over eighteen now. They had a good turnout considering Blowzabella were over the street and The Imagined Village was in Brighton, eight miles away.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Brendy
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 01:22 AM

I'm not predicting the death of Folk Music; by the time 2100 comes around, The Spice Girls will have probably made the Folk genre (.... God forbid...), but "The folk clubs are precisely where people who care about the real tradition are to be found".
'Folky events' may well have evolved into more participatory singaround/music session type gatherings, but that is the kind of decline I'm concerned with...., and indeed, concerned with rectifying.

Festivals are all very well and good, but Clubs keep the grass-roots engaged.

I have talked about 'providing a service' before.
I order to provide a service to the public (in this instance, a Folk Club), it is always advisable to have a little capital in reserve for the nights when the door money isn't great. Having a little in reserve can enable the organiser/committee to be a bit more adventurous when booking acts; keeping the local afficianados on board, and (perhaps, most importantly), keeping them feeling as if they're part of something living, something dynamic.

This would mean involving the Club with the activities of the local community; making the Club 'visible', and putting on whatever kind of fundraisers you would deem appropriate, to help in the maintainance of the Club.

It's a fair enough comment to say that "...the club belongs to the members", but nepotism can be a very unhealthy by-product, if that term gets over-defined, and that does sound the death-knell of any operation, never mind Folk Clubs.
If the calendar looks healthy the members will be satisfied, anyway, and if the organiser has his/her head screwed on, they'll try and compliment the vicissitudes of their local community; putting something special on, perhaps, on the weekend in the month when most people get paid, for instance, local holidays, etc.

If you as a Folk Club would like to do more, but feel constrained due to the finances, explore the possibilities in your area. Village halls are great venues, because as they're 'theme-free', you can create whatever ambience your heart desires.
To be able to afford 'the bigger names' (sometimes at short notice, as extra dates can come up), a little bit of reserve money to make up any shortfall might make your decision to book the artist a little more firm, thereby grabbing a wee exclusive for your Club...., and your community

"The future of folkclubs is down to hardwork and teamwork"

It certainly is

B.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 02:27 AM

What I find really distressing is the folk establishment. The way it looks down on musicians who do other gigs than folk clubs.

Its okay for 'professional' folk musicians to have another job - preferably something identifiably midlle class - librarian, or teacher, say....doctor (perfect!).

Whereas when you suggest some people as guests to certain organisers and radio djs, you get a very snotty ....oh yes I've heard of them - they do pubs...as though they've sold their souls to the devil.

I'm often abused by various mudcatters of being more working class than thou, but the folk world really is a bastion of middle class creepiness - and the aspect I've just described REALLY does make my flesh crawl.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 03:25 AM

My ideal folk club takes place in a filthy back room untouched since 1957; too small for guitars, stage, PA or egos, but just about big enough to allow for the cranky individualism essential to the collective experience that is folk singing.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 04:16 AM

Brendy

'Folky events' may well have evolved into more participatory singaround/music session type gatherings, but that is the kind of decline I'm concerned with....

It takes a pretty perverse definition of folk music to see participation as decline.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 04:30 AM

What I find really distressing is the folk establishment. The way it looks down on musicians who do other gigs than folk clubs.

Who is this "folk establishment?". How do you know they look down on musicians who play other gigs? I have a folk musician friend who plays loads of ceilidhs, Festivals, Burns nights, blues, country and western and in a rock band occasionally - if asked.

He's never told me anyone has looked down on him.

Speaking as a radio DJ - albeit after two whole weeks and four hours of shows - I don't look down on anyone. I might not play their music - but that is a different thing. Some of the people whose music I am unlikely to play include the huge folk stars.

And the criteria is the music, nothing to do with where they play. So far I have played people who have done the Albert Hall and also people who have sung in the pub just down the road from me.

For what it is worth I stopped going to folk clubs on a regular basis because they were full of people who were singing the teenage diary they wrote twenty years ago and now their marriage had broken up (or stayed as everlasting love) they wanted to trace the roots of that break-up (or whatever) by singing in public about it. Those singing traditional songs were not very good and were totally introspective.

Why on earth would anyone want to spend their evenings listening to a string of people like that? I used to go to folk clubs knowing that there was a good chance I would hear someone who was good.

The chance of that happening nowadays is remote - apart from professionals and wannabe professionals.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 04:51 AM

well if you stopped going - that's your story. some of us never gave up on the idealism that attracted us to folk music. more fool us, I sometimes think.

Though how exctly you expect to keep in touch with what IS folk music to ordinary people without visiting the haunts of folk music enthusiasts, I can't imagine. I suppose you can read folk journalists, but most of the space in their magazines and the warmth of their adulation, is bought and sold by the recording companies who advertise on their other pages.

And your friend may have had one set of experiences. but don't tell me that I haven't experienced at first hand in my own life, and second hand when I see other younger musicians trudging through the same crap nowadays. they work the pubs to buy decent instruments etc and give themselves the time to raising their game, and in doing that they lose the 'cred' of the folkerati - tossers one and all.

As for the your impatience with young singer songriters - well it is annoying sometimes - but you can frequently help them with advice - as to how to improve their approach. They're young and by and large saveable and worth supporting - after all they aren't out there beating up old ladies, or dealing drugs.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Santa
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 05:04 AM

Snail:It takes a pretty perverse definition of folk music to see participation as decline.

That wasn't a definition of folk music, but of folk events.

Personally, I see exclusion as a decline. Having a session or a singaround is fine for the participants but rules out most of the audience. If the folk music in an area is restricted to a bunch of buddies singing/playing their old favourites, that's a decline. Even if it isn't quite as dire as that, having a "musos only" time together is just an elite form of a folk club. There's a place for such, in nurturing and bringing along new players, or just having somewhere for the more established ones to play and relax, but unless the rest of the scene is thriving they draw away talent that could support a more open, friendly, club. Which then can, indeed, decline.

But not all clubs are friendly - so I'm told, not having experienced one - and some may well get stuck in a rut, as vividly described above. That isn't a criticism to be thrown as a soggy blanket over all clubs.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 05:24 AM

Participation = exclusion?

I think I'll go and lie down in a darkened room until it's time to go to the session this evening.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 05:51 AM

WLD: "What I find really distressing is the folk establishment. The way it looks down on musicians who do other gigs than folk clubs.... when you suggest some people as guests to certain organisers and radio djs, you get a very snotty ....oh yes I've heard of them - they do pubs...as though they've sold their souls to the devil."

Working musicians get gigs wherever they can find them, and I can think of a few successful acts playing major festivals who have served their apprenticeships on the pub circuit (especially 'Irish' pubs) in Britain and Europe. On the other hand pub gigs don't tend to encourage more challenging material, sensitive interpretations, or fine musicianship, so if an act is working *mostly* on the pub circuit then they might not be best suited to, say, Sidmouth festival. But the idea that an organiser or DJ would go checking whether an act had played pubs before deciding whether to promote them is pretty fanciful.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 06:53 AM

Rare as it is for me to agree with the Wee Little Drummer, I am pleasedf to say I support him totaqlly on the pub question.I must say I have experienced the attitude of looking down on people who play pubs. It does indeed exist in some venue organisers/ committee members. Also, surprisngly, a prejuduce exists in some people's minds against people who play for dancing (therefore, they can't possibly play for listening). Well, it is perfectly true that some pub acts might not be ideal for listening to in a traddy club, or some dance bands may not be verey interesting to listen to. But I would personally turn it right round, and say I might be quite suspicious of a folk "act" who couldn't hold an audience in a pub. Or of a dance band that you couldn't bear listening to.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 07:09 AM

Re-young snigger snoggers

I was at the folk club in Kingswinford, Brum last singers night. there were these two (in my day they would be called lower 6th formers) got up onstage.

One said, we wrote this under the influence of drugs...

Someone behind me whispered, yeh night nurse or junior aspirin.....

Bu the thing was that the 14 year old kid I was sittingnest to was wide eyed in admiration. he could identify with them - not with all
the old buggers like me.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Santa
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 07:35 AM

I think there's a genuine difference between a pub audience and a folk club audience, and not all performers who do a fine job in one environment would transfer easily to the other. As a real example, one bloke came along to our club from playing in a pub band. Once he'd learnt that he didn't need to yell at the top of his voice and hammer his guitar, he became a real asset to the club, but the first time was painful. I can readily imagine the other side of the coin, that some of the gentler club singers would have no chance of a hearing in a pub. Childe Ballads, anyone? Not in my locals. Not without amplification, anyway. I dare say Tanglefoot would manage, or John Kirkpatrick, or Greg Stephens, but not everyone's in that category.

To outrightly condemn anyone who couldn't hold an audience in a pub seems to be setting the bar too high.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 08:02 AM

I can honestly say that one band who can hold their own in a pub, folk club, village hall, you name it, in all circumstances, and they are Wild Willy Barrett's Barn Dance Bad Boys Band & Mary Holland.

I have seen them in a pub and at my village hall and also seen WWB & MH as duet in the village hall.
Can't speak highly enogh about them. They know how to entertain an audience.

Please don't take this a critcism of all other performers, becuase they all bring their own style to each venue. Just using them as an example.

If you don't beleive me, go see them.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 08:14 AM

GUEST Santa: I very much agree that the ability to hold an audience in a pub might be setting the bar a bit too high for some styles of performer. And it all depends on the pub. Town centre Saturday night pubs nowadays, for example, are hardly the place where I would expecty any folk performer to shine. But consider a quiet pub with a nice fire burning and a few people sitting about enjoying a snug night of beer and songs or fiddle tunes, say. Now, wouldn't it a realistic question to ask: how would such-and-such a person/group go down there? It's not an absolute criterion, a shibboleth that could lead to execution if you fail: but it is a question worth considering. I would imagine the Watersons, the McPeakes or Leadbelly would go down fine in my local, or at a folk club. If they want a booking, I'll recommend them to the landlady.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 08:21 AM

Hey Big Al, that was the first folk club I ever went to in my very young innocent days. Its called The woodman I think, and is classed as the Black Country I think. Not Birmingham.
Thats where I first saw that long blonde haired bloke called Martyn Whyndham-Read.
I also saw that very special man, Cyril Tawney there for the first time.
What better introduction could I have had.
I don't know if it is a good club now, but it certainly was in those days. I beleive the resident band was the Puritans and still remeber to this day, Doris who was running the bar.

Why is it I can't remember what I did yesterday?

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 08:24 AM

Now that I've had a bit of a lie down, can I return to Santa's post of 05:04?

Several of the Lewes Arms Folk Club residents also run sessions of various sorts in the area. Are you saying we shouldn't because a) sessions exclude the audience and b) sessions draw people away from folk clubs? Are you saying we shouldn't encourage people to take part?

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 10:47 AM

Though how exactly you expect to keep in touch with what IS folk music to ordinary people without visiting the haunts of folk music enthusiasts,

An interesting thought which makes two assumptions neither of which are correct. The first assumption is that "....what IS folk music ..." can be found in folk clubs. The second is that folk clubs are the haunts of folk music enthusiasts. I would contend that many of them are not. They are just people who play the guitar and sing to their mates who also sing and play the guitar. Since I do neither I stoipped going.

In fact I go to a couple of two/three sessions a week, minimum of one every week. I went to eight festivals last year where as well as listening to some major artists there I make a point of looking at the lesser-known. The largest was Warwick where I did NOT go to Seth Lakeman and did go to Mike and Ali Vass. The smallest festival Iwent to was the Bradfield Traditional Festival. Sometimes the sessions come to me - most notably outside my tent at 4.00 am at Warwick.

I went to a couple of concerts and a couple of folk clubs where people I wanted to see were booked as guests and were performing. (Spiers and Boden; Frankie Gavin and Tim Edey). I also went to an academic conference on the Folk Revival last year. So I doubt if I am out of touch.

Since I am sure we can agree that the amount of folk music has vastly expanded since the "heyday" of folk clubs in the 60's/70's as the folk club has declined what makes you think folk clubs are the place where ".......where folk music IS"?

Let me turn the question around.

What makes you think that folk clubs are where it is? If people are moving the performances of folk music forward do you think it is happening in folk clubs? More likely in workshops and at festivals and sessions. Take a look at the Demon Barbers website and see his Yorkshire Dance video with break dancers, a human beat box and some clogging. You don't have to like it and it may not go any further but what a great attempt to move folk forward.

Criticise my taste in the various aspects of folk music if you like - all you have to do is listen to the radio show I do......but do not tell me I am out of touch because I rarely go to folk clubs.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 11:15 AM

Forgot to mention I shall be at about twelve/fifteen traditional carol sessions over the next five weeks.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Fidjit
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 11:23 AM

Is the folk singer (and for Richard) the Folk Song singer, Becomming like a bit of a freak side show at the fair. You know what I mean

"ROLL UP!, ROLL UP! Come and see the folksinger. Yes madam, he can play 3 chords"

"ROLL UP1 RO... No madam he doesn't do any Dylan and yes he has a capo".

"ROLL... What? Yes of course he has a concertina Madam".

"£3. Show just starting"

I'll head for the target practice tent. I'm one of the shy's.

Chas

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 11:24 AM

Well, the future is a very big and any of us will probably only have a small place in it. This is one of the things I intend to do:

Wednesday 5 December in the side room at the Beech on Beech Road in Cholrton, Manchester, we plan to hold a singaround.

Many of you will be familiar with this cunning plan because I have been running it around for a while.

The general idea is that we gather in the side room and sing mostly, but not exclusively, traditional folk songs. We will probably play a few tunes as well and people may recite poems. Card tricks have been known but the handling of ferrets is most unwelcome.

I don't think people will stand up and whilst we will be sociable and chat about this and that I trust singers etc. will be heard with something akin to er ... respect.

No charge will be made, I will probably "Chair" the fist night in that I will ask people if they want to sing. If two singers are present we will probably sing songs in turn until we run out of songs or time. If 6 singers turn up we will all sing one then go round again. I guess we will have a break and people can announce other events such as:

Chorlton Folk Club
Every Thursday at South West Manchester Cricket Club
Ellesmere Road Chorlton.

The Landlord is keen for us to use the room and I trust much beer will be drunk, of which more details later, but Timothy Taylor Landlord is excellent.

If we have a good time and the Landlord is willing we will perhaps meet a month later

How does this look then?

Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 11:29 AM

In my experienc and I have been gigging in folkclubs for over thirty years,FOLK CLUBS are where you hear Folk music occassionally thereis abit of crossover with country or Jazz,less now than there used to be.
Much depends on whether there are cheap suitable venues available,plus hard working enthusiastic volunteers to run them,who although they are amateurs need to have a professional attitude ,organisation and promotion wise,a difficult task.
Iwould like to thank all the club organisers over the years who have helped do this.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 12:01 PM

I will probably "Chair" the fist night in that I will ask people if they want to sing.

Typing error surely. Should that be fist fight?

I'll get my coat.

Dave

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 12:49 PM

Not unknown and that's for sure, perhaps we will get through the firts one?

Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 01:08 PM

I have no idea what gave me the idea that folk clubs might have something to do with folk music.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 01:15 PM

I have no idea what gave me the idea that folk clubs might have something to do with folk music.

Well if you believe that a group of people playing their guitars to each other and singing self-penned songs constitutes a folk club good luck to you.

It is not all the folk club scene - thank goodness - but it can be a large part of it.

Tell me how do you keep in touch, through ignoring what people say?

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 01:42 PM

I think what you need is a big pile of hoops. Throw them on the ground and when they have finished rolling about some will land near and some will overlap.

Then the overlapping ones can be called things like A tune session and A singaroung, because they are not the same but they are a bit. Then you call another Morris Dancing and that might overlap a bit with another and that could be social dancing. Then that one by itself could be .... er ......... well you have a go.

I have got to go and see Fairport play Dylan in a knock out round at the Lowry. The winner goes through to meet Maddy Prior and her Festival Band in the semis traditionally played on Boxing Day.

I am glad I have been able to be of so much help. And don't forget my singaround at the Beech,

Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 01:44 PM

well if people are writing songs - its usually because they have some thoughts an feelings they wish to express about their lives.

I do not trust people who exclusively sing   about how sad they are for the victims of the press gang, those slain in the first world war, the sailors on The Victory and the victims of pit explosions and the like.

As the recent Kipling thread proves - most of that type privately think warmongers are rather good eggs. It easy to feel sorry for people you can't do anything about. Its called sentimentality - not compassion. take some interest in the poor sods who are sweating under the yoke of our present circumstances.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 01:54 PM

This is the kind of dangerous talk associated with "The Living Tradition" faction of the Peoples Front for the Liberation of thingy.

Be careful Drummer they know where you drink and they will put date rape drugs in you pint!

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Fidjit
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 02:06 PM

Sorry Villian. I previously acredited my Village halls refference to Folkiedave. Sorry both.

Chas

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 02:08 PM

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: weelittledrummer - PM
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 02:27 AM

What I find really distressing is the folk establishment.

I think you really ought to tell us what you mean by the folk establishment. When do they meet? Who is in it? How do people join? what sort of thing do they control?

What sort of mechanism do they use to control folk music?

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 02:22 PM

Hi Kids: The Future of Folk Clubs is in your hands. Uh, make that Spirit. No, not the kind that comes in a pint. Check the thread, Folklore: Canada's First Lady of Folk.
Instant Folk Club!
The receipe? 1/ Rent hall(Faith required, cause you gotta lay out $$$) 2/Advertise(More Faith. $$$) 3/Do show.(Performers should be seasoned Pros). Folk Music has been keepin' on WAAY before 1968 in Montreal when I got there. and here we are in 2007 with a full(large:250)room at $25.Cdn/per cover charge. My, My...The rumours of Folk Music's demise have been greatly exaggerated...Alive n'thrivin' over here...

Don't WAIT for it to happen, stand up and be counted, and MAKE it happen. If you can provide quality entertainment for an audience. The audience will find you...

Support Folk Music...

bob

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 02:56 PM

When I first visited folk clubs I'd never heard of any of the performers; I was locked into Buddy Holly, Eddie Cochran, Everley Bros etc.. like many of my age. I was hooked from the start, and still try to spread myself as thinly as possible to support as much of the folk "tradition" as I possibly can, without endangering my marriage. I owe club organisers a great debt, but they are equally dependent on me and the vast majority of mudcatters (and other folk enthusiasts who have not yet learned of this space). They have to be sensitive to their audience in order for their clubs to survive.

Booking "established" artists in order to get bums on seats is fine as far as it goes, but if there's to be a future for folk clubs (personally I think there's no problem in that) then they have to be prepared to take risks, and embrace change. This can fly in the face of the very notion of "tradition" of course, but taking a gamble on doing things differently can be very rewarding. At one of our local clubs, rather than sticking with the renewable/recyclable guest list, a "new" name was thrown into the mix, and the response was overwhelming - club organiser said "I'd never seen him, but isn't he brilliant!"
A recent Jez Lowe booking had bombed - over exposure maybe?

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: synbyn
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 02:59 PM

Very interesting thread- delighted to hear that the travel req is 5 miles elsewhere! Kind of bears out the point that it's more about participation theses days. A friend who was filmed years ago in the audience of a well-known club from the folk revival commented as much recently. He said that very often there were only a few floor singers whilst the attendances were large. Now, it's not uncommon for performers to make up 2/3 of the audience. I agree with the submission- it's different, but it can't be unhealthy. The folk tradition, surely, consists of passing songs on- and as Bob Copper put it, you don't want to be the one who breaks the chain. Part of this is the folk process of songs being weeded out - if new songs whether or not about teenage angst aren't sufficiently good, the singer'll know soon enough! And we all have to allow that not every song is a raging success. But here's where generosity, rather than hard-hearted commercialism kicks in- we're among friends and that's the essence of a good club. It includes, it supports, it shares. Finding a formula which ensures these is where this thread is usefully heading- good stuff!

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 02:59 PM

Thats alright Chas, acredit Folkiedave by all means, he might just give me a free book the next time I see him :-)
Les

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 03:06 PM

"What I find really distressing is the folk establishment....
What sort of mechanism do they use to control folk music? "

Naked power and ruthless exploiitation of the intellectually weak!

"But here's where generosity, rather than hard-hearted commercialism kicks in- we're among friends and that's the essence of a good club. It includes, it supports, it shares. Finding a formula which ensures these is where this thread is usefully heading- good stuff!"

hear! hear!

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 03:12 PM

And then you could try...

Just wanted to share some of the ideas we're kicking aorund in Canada. The concept of the Super-Hoot/Hootenanny. You band together as musicians and sponsor an evening of Folk Music with 10-12 artists doing around 3 songs each. Folk Establishment? What do you do when your employer limits your income to an hourly wage? Fire him! Start your own business!
The momentum of sharing the music and jamming and playing together should stimulate interest. Leave room for young and old alike.

From across the pond...

bob

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 03:27 PM

if new songs whether or not about teenage angst aren't sufficiently good, the singer'll know soon enough!

First rule of good management - test all assumptions.

Well WLD we now know what the folk establishment do (aside did they used to be the folk police?), so who are they?

I need to get one to interview on my radio programme.

And Les - I shall have a lot of buy one get on free offers next year!!

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 04:18 PM

"Well WLD we now know what the folk establishment do (aside did they used to be the folk police?), so who are they?

I need to get one to interview on my radio programme."

No the folk police and folk establishment are separate enterprises

The folk establishment is a shadowy organisation. they will not come forward and be identified as they would have to admit they got folk music into the present parlous state.

The folk police are more upfront and loudly announce their presence in the intervals at concerts, folk festivals, folk clubs... they have certain catch phrases like, I PREFER CARTHY'S VERSION EVERY TIME....! and I'M SORRY!(they're always sorry) ITS NOT WHAT I CALL FOLK MUSIC! and the dead giveaway, I HAVEN'T PRACTISED THIS ONE FOR ABOUT TWO YEARS (just to let you know that if they REALLY tried they would be much better than anyone else on the planet).

Whatever you do, basically ...you're nicked! the folk police have covered the exits...!

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 05:10 PM

Gets to sound more like Harry Potter every minute.

FolkieDave, are you going to Southwell ?

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Brendy
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 06:57 PM

On another thread I was castigated for daring to suggest that I could live decently enough on the Folk circuit in England, when all around me people were nay-saying me.
I would love to know where the problem lies, then?

Folk Clubs do change, as Folk Music develops in conjunction with other styles. There are performers (and I am one of them) who stick to the traditional songs, if I'm going to sing Irish, English or Scottish trad stuff. All it takes is a bit of presence on stage, and the determination not to go down the 'commercial', 'crowd-pleaser' road

I'm from the Clannad/Planxty/Bothy Band generation, and I was booted out of Comhaltas for playing an Am chord on my way from Em to D during 'Drowsy Maggie' or 'The Kid on the Mountain', or something.
You only realise the 'establishment' is there when you transgress against it. They normally occupy positions as 'decision makers'.
"... well you might be the Lord of them, but you'll never be the Lord of me
You just caught me in your territory."
(©Peter O'Malley)

B.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 07:30 PM

The folk police are more upfront and loudly announce their presence in the intervals at concerts, folk festivals, folk clubs... they have certain catch phrases like, I PREFER CARTHY'S VERSION EVERY TIME....! and I'M SORRY!(they're always sorry) ITS NOT WHAT I CALL FOLK MUSIC! and the dead giveaway, I HAVEN'T PRACTISED THIS ONE FOR ABOUT TWO YEARS (just to let you know that if they REALLY tried they would be much better than anyone else on the planet).

Well I never, I don't think I have ever heard anything like that.

But then I don't go to those "I only do it for the love of the music and this is real folk music not like what them people who get paid for it do and here is a song I wrote about how my love let me down when I was six" folk clubs that you seem to enjoy.

Should any of the folk establishment - who as far as I can see only exist in your over-fertile imagination - appear, do let me know!
And do getout more!!

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 07:54 PM

Look sit in front of your microphone and pretend the folkscene is exactly what they tell you it is on the Mike Harding Show and in Froots, fantasise a world in which we think you're the MAN!

It seems to work for rest of 'em, but don't tell me I don't understand the ground underneath my feet. You're the people with the imagination, you never go to folk clubs - you're the ones who imagine they understand folk music.

Minus the nasty grubby folk who populate reality of course.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 09:15 PM

You know, if I wasn't involved in a warm, friendly, vibrant and thriving folk scene, I'd find all this a bit depressing.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 03:04 AM

"The worst thing about folk clubs is that there are too many folk songs sung in them" I believe someone actually said that.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 03:57 AM

Why not listen to the show - before you pass judgement on it?

Actually don't bother there will be no-one you have heard of.

In the past two weeks:

Brian Peters, Watersons, Maggie Boyle, Pogues, Kerfuffle, Hekety, Crucible, Glorystrokes, Guichen Quartette, Les Barker, Anahata and Mary Humphries, Last Night's Fun, Capercaillie, Bellowhead, Sam Larner, Ewan MacColl, Peggy Seeger, Craobh Rua, Lal Waterson, Simon Mayor, Jim Causley, Swan and Dyer, Steeleye Span, Nic Jones, Devil's Interval, Waterson:Carthy, Sharon Shannon, Flook, Martyn-Wyndham Read, Duncan Mc Farlane Band, Blowzabella, Wyke and Driscoll, Fraser Sisters, Robin Garside, Fraser Sisters and excerpts from the original Radio Ballads. This week so far it looks like: The Outside Track,Bella Hardy, Dave Swarbrick,Craig Morgan Robson, Breabach, Lisa Knapp, Askew Sisters, Young Coppers, Wrigley Sisters, Billy Pigg, and Brass Monkey.

I'm waiting to play Demon Barbers, Malinky, Kitching and Bartley, John McCusker, Alistair Russell and I shall be doing a feature on the Sheffield Carols including the Glenrock Carol Singers from Pennsylvania. Then there's Kathryn Tickell, Eric Bogle, Carolyn Robson, Kimber's Men, Notts Alliance, Voice Squad, Barry Dransfield, Skyhook, Salsa Celtica, Will Noble, Stocai, Chris Wood - an eleven minute track there, Shepheard, Spiers and Watson, Moving Hearts, Louis Killen, Planxty, Christy Moore, Blue Murder, Doonan's, Vin Garbutt, Whaley and Fletcher, John Conolly Ray Fisher, Tom McConville, John Cocking and so on. Then there are the tradition bearers, Phil Tanner, Frank Hinchcliffe, Fred Jordan, Walter Pardon and new bands like the Shee.

In fact as you say - just like the Mike Harding Show.

Of course if you believe that the clubs are the place where real folk music takes place then you won't want people listening on the radio will you?

Keep digging.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 04:08 AM

Folkiedave: just read through your very interesting looking playlist. Now, I don't see the names Will Duke and Dan Quinn there, and I mention this because I saw them recently for the first time and they seem to do traditional English folk better than anyone else I've for a very very very long time. Look out for them.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 04:10 AM

Hi Greg,

Same reason as there are others missing, most notably the Boat Band!!

No record!! Would love to play them.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 04:18 AM

CD's in the post!

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 04:19 AM

Dave,

I like what I have heard of your show....but you could help with the future of folk clubs (there not all that bad honest!)by mentioning Kirkby Fleetham Folk Club and our opening night on Saturday 24th November featuring
Wendy Arrowsmith , Kim Guy & Ian McKone!

These will be 3 "proper" performances and then a singaround until the wee small hours......which will be friendly to old (& young) traddies and to young (& old) sniggy snoggies.

The only thing that will be compulsory will be smiling!

.....and it's only an hour (and a little bit) from Sheffield!!!!!

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 04:26 AM

Indeed, not only can I mention it - I most certainly will!!

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 04:53 AM

Thanks Dave....and it would be great to see you at some point....maybe we can cure your "clubitis"........

Cheers

Paul

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 06:34 AM

Oh did I mention:

Wednesday 5 December in the side room at the Beech on Beech Road in Cholrton, Manchester, we plan to hold a Singaround.

The general idea is that we gather in the side room and sing mostly, but not exclusively, traditional folk songs. We will probably play a few tunes as well and people may recite poems. Card tricks have been known but the handling of ferrets is most unwelcome.

I don't think people will stand up and whilst we will be sociable and chat about this and that I trust singers etc. will be heard with something akin to er ... respect.

No charge will be made, I will probably "Chair" the fist night in that I will ask people if they want to sing. If two singers are present we will probably sing songs in turn until we run out of songs or time. If 6 singers turn up we will all sing one then go round again. I guess we will have a break and people can announce other events such as:
07824 364 602 for details

Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Brendy
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 09:03 AM

The unfortunate thing about people who come up to performers and say the likes of "... well, I prefer Carthy's version...", or whatever, is that the ones who are susceptible to that kind of criticism, are generally the one's that need a bit of a confidence boost, and they can be turned off Folk Music for good, because the standard they are 'required' to attain, seems so far off from where they are at the present.

It's another dynamic of this, that generally the person who is making the criticism would hardly know what end of the guitar to hold, never mind '... the Carthy version'.

I'm glad I was able to offset this at an early age; I was influenced by musicians who were pushing the boundaries themselves, so I felt secure in what I was doing.
Other's didn't pull through that constant brow-beating, and now '...used to play the flute', and things...

I hope it is a practice that is in it's descendant, because it effects the confidence of the young player...., and indeed the perception of the newcomer to the Club.

B.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 09:33 AM

"But consider a quiet pub with a nice fire burning and a few people sitting about enjoying a snug night of beer and songs or fiddle tunes, say."

Hey Greg, where's that pub?

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 09:55 AM

Beech, Beech Road, Chorlton, 5th December

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 09:56 AM

or The Black Horse Kirkby Fleetham 24th November!

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 10:03 AM

Richard Bridge:
you quoted me saying
"But consider a quiet pub with a nice fire burning and a few people sitting about enjoying a snug night of beer and songs or fiddle tunes, say."
Then you enquired where the pub was. I was actually making a very precise, not romanticised, picture of a night in the Greyhound, Penkhull, Stoke-on-Trent with guests Will Duke and Dan Quinn, and hosts the Boat Band and various other locals. I say "guests" but not as in "folk club guests". It was an open evening in the bar with the locals.Will and Dan came from away, that's why I said guests.
    Thaty's the sort of night I like. I take it you do too! Come along some time.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 10:06 AM

Folkiedave, the playlist for your show is fantastic. Is there a website or anything where people on the wrong end of Snake Pass for Sheffield can listen to it?

I'm not personally convinced that folk clubs are the only place or even the main place to hear folk music these days... of course it all depends what your definition of folk music is. If like WLD seems to advocate, 'folk music' is exactly the same as 'music-played-at-folk-clubs-with-the-exception-of-traditional-music-which-is-clearly-the-last-refuge-of-middle-class-tossers-and-the-establishment' then the discussion is over. Personally, I came to love (what I think of as) folk music without the intercession of the folk club scene. Folk clubs were never part of what my peers did - we were more interested in gigs. Banjiman's conception of what a folk club could be makes me think again though... meanwhile, there's always Les's singaround at the Beech in Chorlton on 5th November!

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 10:07 AM

Sorry, 5th December...

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 10:31 AM

A different plot - thanks Nigel

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 10:37 AM

Please come and try it some time then Nigel.

You would be extremely welcome.....I just hope after all the hype that people do come and enjoy!

Otherwise there will be no future for this folk club!

Paul

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: treewind
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 11:27 AM

Nigel - see This Thread for Folkiedave's radio show links.
You can listen live on the web and also afterwards as a podcast (look for "folk")
(and BTW the podcast IS working now).

Anahata

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 11:41 AM

Alot depends on hard working organisers ,they are often amateurs yet are expected to be professional,they have to be enthusiastic, hard working and be able to promote their clubs in a professioinal way ,they also need to remember they are aclub ,not a mini concert,they have to be friendly and welcome to all.this is apretty tall order.
They also need to be able to find cheap suitable venues[another tall order]working mens/social clubs are generally good bets,cheap beer and stability of ownership.
Iwould like to thank all the organisers over the years who have given me gigs and enabled me to play the music I love.Thankyou to allthose who have done a thankless task .DickMiles

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Brendy
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 11:53 AM

"Iwould like to thank all the organisers over the years who have given me gigs and enabled me to play the music I love.Thankyou to allthose who have done a thankless task"

Second that.

B.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 12:11 PM

Sounds a bit far from Kent, sorry chaps

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Brendy
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 12:14 PM

Start one up, Richard...

The scene needs good heads.

B.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 12:24 PM

We used to do one in the pub next door to my house. Old school, tatty, but it did have a fire. It was often a bit rowdy, but we did have some good nights, and those too drunk to drive (most of us) used to sleep at my house (all right, drink some more, then sleep) and then I would put stew into survivors about noon on Sunday.

But it got to be a bit of a hassle and we gave up, not least because the pub stopped serving proper beer and only had keg. The pub is derelict now and will fairly soon be four houses (two pairs of semi dets, the slums of the future)

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: synbyn
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 12:38 PM

Sounds like what we're trying to do at the Woodshed session in the Wrotham Arms Broadstairs... did I mention the first one is this Friday, 8.30.......!

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 12:54 PM

I love these circular discussions.....Richard, if you can't come to us, we''ll come to you (Kent anyway)....we'll see you at The Wrotham Arms, Broadstairs on April 5th. Wendy Arrowsmith and her trusty banjo playing sidekick to provide your Saturday evening entertainment?

synbyn, sorry we can't make your woodshed session on Friday, I'll be busy worrying about Saturday night!

I know this thread is about Folk Clubs but I really enjoy playing pub gigs too... a bit more laid back and a different kind of challenge.

Paul

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Brendy
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 12:59 PM

"I know this thread is about Folk Clubs but I really enjoy playing pub gigs too"

Ahhh, but isn't that the nub of it, really, Banjiman...., most Folk Clubs meet in pubs.
It really is only a question of 'changing the theme' for the nights one wants to turn a pub into a folk club.

B.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 01:05 PM

ssssshhhhh Brendy, be quiet, don't tell everyone or they'll all be doing it! What will I have as a USP then?

Paul :)

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 02:10 PM

It's nice to have a little positive feedback about club organisers for a change. Thank you.

Nigel Spencer

I'm not personally convinced that folk clubs are the only place or even the main place to hear folk music these days...

I don't think anybody is saying they are but they are part of the scene and, I think, a valuable one. I know that the (middle-aged) teenage diary singers and guitar obsessives exist but they are a tiny minority and easily avoided. It doesn't help the future of folk clubs if Folkiedave goes around telling the world that's what they are like.

You should get out more Dave. Your play list is wonderful and I've seen a lot of them in folk clubs.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 02:58 PM

It's a bit like which is the most important leg of a 3 (?) legged stool.

Folk Clubs, Music on CD by pro and semi pro people, radio programmes, festivals, sessions, singarounds, barn dances, morris, mummers ....

..... each contributes and benefits from the others. Pick the ones you enjoy and trust they all survive and grow bit.

Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 03:12 PM

Anahata - thanks for the link to Dave's radio show. I shall go and explore his podcasts whilst I paint my back room...

Paul - I will try to get to Kirkby Fleetwood eventually and also use the occasion as an excuse to stomp through some hills for a day in my big boots...

Snail - I suppose I can only go on what's available to me locally. I suspect if I lived in, say, Lewes, I would have a very different opinion. And access to Harveys' beers! My local folk club, when I visited it, was great fun but on the whole not really my sort of music - mainly singer songwriter stuff with a bit of early rock 'n' roll and poetry thrown in and only our 'Les from Chorlton' playing any traditional music. I had a great night out and I'll go again, but when it comes to seeing folk music live it's nearly always concerts for me rather than clubs at the moment. I hope this can change - one thing I do like about the pub/club setting is the smaller scale.

I suspect I should probably try to do something about it rather than whinge from the sidelines. That's going to be my new year's resolution, in fact...

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 03:13 PM

And what Les said.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 03:20 PM

You're right about the stool, Les. In say 1960 the clubs were the main leg of the stool, in fact it was more of a shooting stick as they were the dominant part of the show. That, luckily I would say,is no longer the case, there are loads of different activities going on. As I mentioned earlier in this thread for example, out of the last twenty gigs I played, only one was in a folk club.
There are so many different scenes and sub-scenes, it isn't remotely homogeneous, which is excellent. This wonderful variety can be threatened, of course, if one small sub-group can get its hands on the media and publicity outlets for example.In that case the public may be given a very distorted and narrow view of what is in fact a very varied kind music. This is a possible danger that might need thinking about, but things will hopefully change. Basically folk music is a many headed hydra that grows in all directions, and changes shape as well. Knocking one bit on the head won't affect the rest much. Which is as it should be.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Fidjit
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 04:38 PM



No Greg it just grows two more heads.

Anyway who's doing the knocking?

Not me.

I am enjoying just being a part of it all.

Chas

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 05:06 PM

We know your secret Chas ....................... which is more than Mr Darling does

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 05:53 PM

Let me make it plain that if there were a decent folk club in Sheffield booking decent guests or with decent residents then I would be happy to go.

Kiveton is good, but way out for me.

Barnsley is as far away.

I find it remarkable that Lewes - supports two folk clubs both of which look pretty decent to me - whereas Sheffield can't even support one.

It can't be the lack of organisers - we have loads of them or lack of young people - we have loads of them too. Plenty of good sessions I suppose is the problem - people go there and can get a good fix of the music they love.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Brendy
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 06:02 PM

But there is a need for the 'concept' of a Club in the Sheffield area, would you say?

B.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 07:11 PM

We have loads of sessions and we get some well-known and professional musicians at those sometimes. So we don't go short.

I do feel the need to get into a club and have a good sing sometimes as I used to. But I will get that over the next few weeks with the carols.

In folk clubs I was brought up on damn good floor singers and damn good professionals and I miss them.

Take a look at the play list and you can see where I am coming from.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Brendy
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 08:11 PM

I see what you're doing, Folkiedave, and fair play to you.

I believe that all places play their part in keeping the scene active and healthy. The Folk Clubs and sessions where I musically grew up gave birth to a whole new wave of musicians, and this has played no small part in keeping the Irish tradition alive, over home.

There's places in England that are sadly lacking in outlets where the public can feel the tradition close at hand; Lewes has two successful ones, and Kent is 'sadly lacking'

It's fine that you have the carols for the next few weeks, but if there is nothing much for miles around, then something grass-rootsy, which covers as much of the tradition as it can is needed, and my point is that if 'deprived areas' (let's call them), stay that way, there's more of a chance than none that other people too, will 'get over it'

And I don't really think, in the wider scheme of things, that that's terribly healthy in the long run.

I applaud people who do it 'for the scene'. That is it's own reward: money is only one kind of currency.

B.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 08:17 PM

I haven't read the thread due to lack of time, and probably someone has discussed this..but I think there will be much on the internet for us to do. mg

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Brendy
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 08:41 PM

I was part of a team that took over the running of the lowest performing pub in a grotty old Irish theme pub, a good few years back.
We had a good bar manager, an excellent head chef, friendly and enthusiastic staff, and I took care of the website, the MP3 collection, the booking of the artists, the mailing lists, general P.R., and I redesigned everything inside, right down to the menu (terms of lease meant we couldn't do anything to the outside).

There was nary a Pogues song, nor a Waterboys number played in the place, not that the public didn't 'demand' it, mind you.

We called it a 'Traditional Pub', and the playlists in the pub were carefully controlled by yours truly.

The pub shot up to first place in the chain within 6 months.
The place has changed hands a few times since then, but a few of us proved that even in a foreign country, with careful management (... a weaning process that could sometimes be painful...) the 'concept' works.

B.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 03:21 AM

Sorry Brendy - I might not have made it clear enough - loads of music in "central" Sheffield - much of it high quality - just that there is no "traditional" folk club.

I'd like one, true, how much I could support it nowadays I am not sure, now I am retired I am busier than ever.

I think your story of reviving shows the hard work involved and there is not doubt that getting a club going in Sheffield would require all those things. Someone tried it a while ago but it was too much for one. Then the venue closed.

And we do have song carriers locally (still) and the carols and so on.

And now a radio programme at last. And I must get on a prepare this weeks!!!!

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Fidjit
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 04:54 AM

Know the feeling Dave.
Don't know how I used to hold a full time job and do what I'm still doing now. Time seems to fly by. Perhaps I'm moving in slow motion to every thing else.

Found this for you

modern concertia playing

might suit you program list.

Chas

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 05:23 AM

Hi Chas, indeed it would - and I have the three disc set that Alan Day did too.

Look out for ore concertina music!!

Dave

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 06:19 AM

Folkiedave

I find it remarkable that Lewes - supports two folk clubs both of which look pretty decent to me - whereas Sheffield can't even support one.

It can't be the lack of organisers - we have loads of them or lack of young people - we have loads of them too. Plenty of good sessions I suppose is the problem - people go there and can get a good fix of the music they love.

There are more sessions around here than you can shake a fiddle bow at, some of them, as I have said, run by residents of one or the other Lewes club. I'm not sure if the connection has been made, but Will Duke and Dan Quinn that Greg so rightly praises are residents (along with Vic and Tina Smith) of the Royal Oak club. Will runs one of the oldest sessions, originally started by Vic Gammon. They don't seem to detract from the success of the clubs.

Take a look at the play list and you can see where I am coming from.

It's a superb list Dave and we've booked quite a lot of the people on it as have the Royal Oak, not to mention the Seaford and Horsham clubs.
The damn good floor singers and damn good professionals are still out there. I can't help you with your problems in Sheffield except to say that, yes, it is too much for one person and you do need a venue.
But please, can you stop telling the World that folk clubs are nothing but diary singers and guitar twiddlers?

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 07:15 AM

Point taken Snail.

What I think I originally said when this discussion started on other thread(s) was that I used to go to clubs and stopped because I never saw anyone my lifted my heart.

I acknowledge the work that the better clubs do and am happy to do so.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 07:42 AM

Thanks Dave. I hope someone gets a traditional club going in Sheffield. It ought to be fertile ground.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 07:52 AM

Well there used to be lots of good folkclubs in sheffield,Iplayed at the HEFTS AND BLADES,and had a fullhouse at the GRAPES,must have played there four times at least.
what is needed is a dedicated organiser,and a group of good singers who enjoy each others company ,start off as a singers club and book guests as and when you can afford book guests,DAVE yousound like just the man.[you never know you might sell afew books too]and you could book those people who lift your heart.DickMiles

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 09:35 AM

Indeed Dick and many is the good night I have had there too. The Grapes had two or three clubs at one time. There was also the legendary Highcliffe where I saw Planxty and Billy Connolly with the Humblebums and to be honest many more. There was a club up at the Cross Scythes at Dore which used to be full of the students from the domestic science college and another at Wentworth College with a similar attraction. Then there was that all female college in Derbyshire. But I digress.

I didn't really move to Sheffield until the very late sixties having spent my "formative" folk years first in Manchester and then in Hull.

Unfortunately Dick I am up to the eyeballs at the moment - the problem is that we know what is needed, venue, guest, artists, etc. but we have no-one to do it. Shame but there you are.

And anyway I have had enough of that over the past 30 years or so. Radio show comes first until I get that right.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: RoyH (Burl)
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 12:09 PM

Greetings Dave, may I send you a cd?

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 02:32 PM

"Let me make it plain that if there were a decent folk club in Sheffield booking decent guests or with decent residents then I would be happy to go" (Hi FolkieDave)

Wortley Folk at the Black Bull (3rd Saturday)

PS - Robson - should he stay or should he go?

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 05:59 PM

Yes and I have been there a time or two. There is even a bus as I remember so it will be free for me to travel there!!

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 06:01 PM

My opinion on Robson is that he would make a good next England manager - written after the loss to Croatia!! That way Kevin would have to let him go!!

Not a great fan.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 02:53 AM

As long as they don't get MON